From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #20 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Monday, May 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 020 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:39:13 +0100 From: NICK Subject: Re: DG: ghoulish degeneration I think the interesting thing about the mythos is (well, one interesting thing anyway) that 'magic' isn't what we normally think of as being magic - rather an incredibly advanced alien science. Elements of 'real' science can quite easily be blended into it. For instance; spoken spells could work in a similiar fashion to 'the butterfly effect' of chaos theory - their intoning into the complex system that is the universe triggers certain natural processes that eventually results in a hunting horror showing up;or something. in this way 'magic' in the mythos universe is simply a science that truly understands the nature of reality. So; ghouls - the transformation process is probably some kind of magical flip-side to the science of genetics. This should give keepers a fairly free-hand in tieing together the scientific information they know (or have recieved from this list) with the more supernatural elements that appear in stories and sourcebooks. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:20:15 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: How to Survive in a Lovecraft Story Heh. This is also known as "Reconaissance by Fire." >Yes, but very frustrating if you are a keeper trying to have someting nasty >happen to just one or two PCs. My last party were a case in point... one PC >would go off to follow a lead (Player and Keeper disappear out of the room >with dice and character sheets). PC then fails to make the evening >rendevous. The party then collectively sighs and one of the other PCs (any >one dosen't matter) says "Damn. We've lost another PI. Still, on the bright >side, at least we now know where the cultists are. Better break out the >hardware and go to give them a stiff talking to!".... Of course, now the >rest of the PCs are expected and half the party gets killed in the ensuing >bloodbath. Ho hum. Pass around new character sheets. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 16:41:45 +0000 From: Matthew Pook Subject: Re: DG: Re: UK based scenarios NICK wrote: > > Officially, I only know of the GW supplement 'The Statue of the > sorceror and the Vanishing conjurer', which contains two adventures, > one of which is set in 1920's London - there was also a sourcebook I > never got hold of called 'A Green and Pleasant Land', with some > cricketers on the front and a tentacle slithering towards a lost > ball. I'm assuming that was concerned with 1920's England too. > Otherwise, I've participated in dozens of UK-based COC games, modern > and otherwise over the years...just drop me a line I have all of the scenarios written by Games Workshop - including 'On The Trail of the Loathsome Slime' - best title for an adventure! ;-p Plus also Green And Pleasant Land and Statute of the Sorcerer. What I am after is scenarios that start in the UK - I have just run 'Curse of the Bone' and 'Draw The Blinds On Yesterday' from White Dwarf for this group. They are just starting out. Certainly the latter scenario would be brilliant for a UK DG campaign. Why did that plane dissappear for three weeks? As for your offer of help, yes please! - -- Pookie URL: http://arts.falmouth.ac.uk/journalism/PAGES/Welcome.htm HOME OF: The Unoffical SkyRealms of Jorune UK Home Page, and the following for GURPS: SkyRealms of Jorune, 2300 AD, Rally Cry !, Group Green, The Race, Strikeforce: Morituri, Xenozoic Tales, and The Adventures of Luther Arkwright. “... Don’t take your pineal gland for granted. Pamper it! Essential oils! Rubdowns! It could save your ass someday.” - - Tlg’manh, The Unspeakable Oath #14/15 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:59:46 -0400 From: graemep@immag.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: lloigor >NICK wrote: > >The state of the town today is that the human populace are completely >degenerate. Ritual torture, cannibalism and violent sexual deviancy >are everyday occurences on the streets.The megaliths in the region are >sick >with power, and this is affecting time/space - causing the dead to >wander >the town aimlessly. This sounds a little bit like Milton Keynes (only not so bad!). >The question is where to go now. The answer is "As far away as possible!" I should imagine! Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:26:51 -0500 From: Jeff McSpadden Subject: Re: DG: Re: UK based scenarios Matthew Pook wrote: Either matthew has his clock set wrong, or he should beware the hounds of tindalos abusing plutonian drug like that. You are GMT +0, and it's still 1st May there, so you must be sending email from the future! Deny it all you will, but we're sending a team to investigate this obvious alien technology. Jeff - -------------------------------------------- ICQ# is 9957476 http://www.inlink.com/~jeferi/ opening soon: project annex at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/2864/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:42:13 -0500 From: "R. Michael Dukes" Subject: DG: CoC character sheet I am about to start an epic Coc/DG campaign which will begin in the '20's and have ramifications and direct links to present-day characters and events. My players have never played Cthulhu before, so I thought I'd give them the works by starting in Cthulhu and continuing into Delta Green. I was wondering if anyone else has done this, and to what effect? Also, I have the DG PDF character sheet (thanks!)... I was wondering if anyone had the 1920's CoC sheet in PDF? Just wondering. Agent MacCord jedi@netusa1.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:56:44 -0400 From: graemep@immag.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: ghoulish degeneration >Ricardo Mendez wrote: > >A small question: is there any nutrient or substance that can be gained only >through the ingestion of either human or long dead meat? That could justify >the ghoulish practices. Maybe the transformation could be triggered the >first time the subjects come into contact with that very substance, and as >you pointed out, the substance just furthers the degeneration along. Kind >of like a drug addiction. Good point, and one which hasn't been satisfactorarily answered even in the real world (viz. what do prions taste like?). It could be possible that the ingestion of human tissue could have a more subtle effect. If there was some form of neurodegeneration in ghouls, this could affect memory (perhaps resulting in amnesia... damn, what was I going to say next?) Oh yes. Now if memories are essential for the efficient functioning of humans/ghouls, even on a subconcious level, there would be a biological imperative for retaining them. If this is blocked due to brain damage from the "ghoul-prion" accumulating in the brain, then new memories would be needed. This may be provided by the ghoul ability/spell/whatever (my rulebook is 9 1/2 thousand miles away at the moment, so I can't look it up!) to consume memories via ingestion of human tissue. Theoretical, but hey! By the way, is this starting to sound like Bladerunner yet? Just some more demented ravings. Regards Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu Graeme Price PhD. Program in Molecular Immunology Institute of Molecular Medicine & Genetics Medical College of Georgia 1120 15th Street, CB-2803 Augusta, Georgia 30912-3175 U.S.A. Tel(lab): (+001) 706-721-8883 Fax: (+001) 706-721-8732 E-mail: graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:56:43 -0400 From: graemep@immag.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: ghoulish degeneration >G.Wycoff wrote: > >Well, isn't the "Ghoul Manuscript" supposed to be bound in human flesh? >If that was the case, than perhaps the infectious element (I would also >think it to be a prion) is able to survive in the cover of the manuscript. >As you read more and more and have greater exposure to the protein, you >speed your transformation. A reasonable hypothesis: Prions are able to resist practically everything you can throw at them (you can hit them with huge amounts of alpha, beta or gamma radiation, and all they do is glow in the dark a bit. They are resistant to proteases and oxidizing agents. And bleach. And UV-light. And heat [up to complete incineration]. You can bury them in the ground for a year and they are still infectious!) and they are present at up to 10^10 infectious units per gram of spinal cord (can't remember the reference, but this figure is perfectly kosher). One lab working on prions I know of routinely cleans it's benches in 6 molar NaOH, and they still don't know for sure that this neutralises the little buggers! >Incidentally, "prions" are supposedly infectious _protein_ agents. Most >viruses are either DNA or RNA based; RNA and DNA are the "traditional" >genetic material. Prions, on the other hand, are supposedly proteins >capable of creating a heritable difference in your genetic material. As (I >think it was Graeme?) said, the functioning of prions are somewhat of a >mystery still. Several rather uncommon human diseases are believed to be >spread through a prion mechanism. The only problem with this hypothesis is >that the prion-based diseases seem to have a long latency period, whereas >the "ghoul transformation" is rather rapid. Not necessarily. It takes about a year for mice to go down with scrapie (albeit after intra-cerebral inoculation), and no one knows what the incubation period of "new variant" CJD is (for people living in the UK this is somewhat important - if the incubation period is very short [2-5 years] we are pretty much in the clear.... if on the other hand it is 15-20 years then there could be tens to hundreds of thousands of cases over the next two decades - assuming that nvCJD is contracted by eating contaminated beef, that is). Genetic suscepibility could play a huge role here... those who are going to become ghouls transform quickly; those who aren't susceptible either live completely normal lives, or drop dead from CJD 20 years later (or possibly the change just takes longer - remember this is degeneration into a ghoulish state, and so must take some time by the definition of degeneration... almost instantaneous ghoulish transformation may occur in hypersusceptible individuals though, but this could be by completely different means). >What's all of this mean? Well, maybe you don't have to actually _read_ >the book to become a ghoul. Maybe lots of contact with it would do >the trick. Maybe it is an especially pernicious disease, this "ghoul >transformation" agent. That seems just a little more than cruel to most >investigators, however. On the contrary. There is a strong argument that it should teach them to be more careful. After all, they ought to be handling such dubious forensic evidence with rubber gloves to prevent them from cross-contaminating it! :) Regards Graeme Graeme Price PhD. Program in Molecular Immunology Institute of Molecular Medicine & Genetics Medical College of Georgia 1120 15th Street, CB-2803 Augusta, Georgia 30912-3175 U.S.A. Tel(lab): (+001) 706-721-8883 Fax: (+001) 706-721-8732 E-mail: graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:14:16 -0500 From: Jeff McSpadden Subject: Re: DG: lloigor TUO wrote: > > Certain informants at Pagan Publishing have informed me that the scenario > anthology entitled "Mortal Coils" does include a lloigor scenario and in fact, > the book has been upgraded to 8 scenarios. All together now...WE WANT 10! WE WANT 10! WE WANT 10! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 00:21:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matt C." Subject: DG: REeactivated Though they don't realize it, the members of 'Special K' have been assigned. One DIA member, one FBI serial killer specialist, and a field investigator for the CDC are being recruited to fill this, the most unlucky of Delta Green cells. They were joined by another FBI special agent friendly on thier first mission. Code names have not been assigned, wish them well. Standard contact protocols in effect. Be seeing you, "Lance" + | + Matt Cowger - Tenebrae@Earthling.net ICQ UIN:5409084 Cam #:9607-020 http://home.gvi.net/~tenebrae + | + ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 23:12:14 -0700 From: raven@mocha.iceinternet.com (Collins James D./Sarah H. Wood) Subject: Re: DG: ghoulish degeneration I have a theory about _ghoulish degeneration_ that I would like to share with everyone. A person's language (whether it is French, German, or whatever) shapes how they view the world. What if the ghoul's language (gibberings and meepings) shapes how the world views you? So the greater an individual's skill in the ghoul language, the higher the chance of that individual undergoing a _ghoulish degeneration_. What do you think? In the same vein, maybe ghasts (coughing gutterals) are neanderthals that have learned this language (to their detriment). Are languages viral or is the ghoul language a telepathic virus? It's something to think about when you're picking _Other Languages_. Later, Jamie. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 17:39:25 +1000 From: Rob Shankly Subject: Re: DG: Re: UK based scenarios Well, I had a look at the bookshelf for published UK scenarios: 1/. Pagan's (remember them?) "Golden Dawn" is set in Britain... 2/. Chaosium's "Green and Pleasant Land" is a British Sourcebook (a bit like the current Cairo and New Orleans books). It contains a few scenarios. 3/. "The Mystery of Loch Feinn", which was included in the 4th Ed. rulebook, is a scenario set in Scotland (see the Lliogor thread too!) 4/. The original "Gaslight" rules had sample scenarios set in London. 5/. "Dark Designs" was a quasi-campaign, also set in 1890s London. 6/. "Fearful Passages" has a number of scenarios that could be set in the UK, including one real beauty that involves canal boats and tunnels (to propel the boats, boatmen would lie on their backs, in the dark, "walking" along the tunnel roofs...) 7/. Last but not least, "Horror on the Orient Express", "Cthulhu Classics" (aka The Curse of Yog Sothoth), "Curse of Cthulhu" (aka The Fungi from Yuggoth) & "Masks of Nyarlathotep" all have intervals in the UK. There are plenty of others, of course. NICK wrote: > > Officially, I only know of the GW supplement 'The Statue of the > sorceror and the Vanishing conjurer', which contains two adventures, > one of which is set in 1920's London - there was also a sourcebook I > never got hold of called 'A Green and Pleasant Land', with some > cricketers on the front and a tentacle slithering towards a lost > ball. I'm assuming that was concerned with 1920's England too. > Otherwise, I've participated in dozens of UK-based COC games, modern > and otherwise over the years...just drop me a line Finally, sometime after July, I will post "And Did Those Feet..?". I ran this at Gloranthacon'98 (Melbourne) in January, and will run it again at Arcanacon (another Australian Con.) in a couple of months. It is Cthulhu'20s, designed to run in roughly 3 hours. - -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:03:51 +0000 From: Matthew Pook Subject: Re: DG: Re: UK based scenarios Jeff McSpadden wrote: > > Matthew Pook wrote: > > > > Either matthew has his clock set wrong, or he should beware the hounds of tindalos abusing plutonian drug like that. You are GMT +0, and it's > still 1st May there, so you must be sending email from the future! Deny it all you will, but we're sending a team to investigate this obvious > alien technology. > College computers! All the times are set wrong - the It people have not reset them! As I am her only for another week when I hand in my final major dissertation, I don't see why i should either! - -- Pookie URL: http://arts.falmouth.ac.uk/journalism/PAGES/Welcome.htm HOME OF: The Unoffical SkyRealms of Jorune UK Home Page, and the following for GURPS: SkyRealms of Jorune, 2300 AD, Rally Cry !, Group Green, The Race, Strikeforce: Morituri, Xenozoic Tales, and The Adventures of Luther Arkwright. “... Don’t take your pineal gland for granted. Pamper it! Essential oils! Rubdowns! It could save your ass someday.” - - Tlg’manh, The Unspeakable Oath #14/15 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:47:05 +0100 From: NICK Subject: DG: Re: UK based scenarios The best non-DG mini-campaign I ever ran in the UK started off with a scenario i stole and then liberally adapted for my own needs. A British anthropological expedition to Antarctica got its hands on what appeared to be fossilised rocks buried in the permafrost. After establishing that the rock wasn't of Earth origin, the expedition got excited about the possibility it might be some kind of meteor from Mars or something, and took it back to the natural history museum in London to get it authenticated. It was in fact, the frozen remains of a formless spawn of Tsathoggua (injured during a war with the elder things, presumably). It woke, and then killed and ate the examiners (although not neccesarilly in that order), before slithering off down to the basement. The investigators were called in to assist the investigation into the dissapearance of both rocks and examiners. Later, in the hospital, the investigators realised that although they had destroyed the Spawn, there had been a human ally assisting it - one Owen Greck -a cultist of Tsathoggua who the spawn had contacted telepathically when it awoke. The investigators followed his trail North, and discovered the worship of Tsathoggua alive and well in the inner city slums of Manchester. Macabre graffiti;ritual killings in public toilets - this one had it all. After a few false starts and red herrings, briefly nipping over to Yorkshire to avenge the death of one of my 1920's investigators, they caught on that Tsathoggua didn't want his cultists to wake him up or anything, but rather to bring his old mate Hastur to Earth, which they intented to do by using a series of recently constructed council flats as the nine stone pillars in a 'V' formation. This was having some quite horrific effects on the tenants, as you can imagine. Anyway, killing the insane architect, one Michael Finlay, and blowing up a block soon put a stop to all that. hope this is interesting; could be adapted to DG purpouses fairly easily I should think ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:57:53 +0100 From: NICK Subject: Re: DG: ghoulish degeneration Jamie wrote;-. <<>>> Yeah; i like this idea. I try to do this alot in my scenarios - linking the haziest areas of science and liberal quantities of philosophy to explain mythos related magic. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 08:41:03 EDT From: Obumbrate Subject: Re: DG: DG on AOL I'm interested! Please let me know what's required and I'll respond as quickly as possible. Thanks, Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:51:58 GMT0BST From: Robert Thomas Subject: Re: DG: DG on AOL Hello, I'm interested as well. Just e-mail me with whats required. Rob. J.R.E.Thomas. Science Library PC Room Advisor ext 6135 / 5128. MScII City and Regional Planning Student. ThomasR@cardiff.ac.uk ~~When life hands you lemons, break out the tequila and salt!~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:35:36 -0500 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricardo_J._M=E9ndez?=" Subject: Re: DG: ghoulish degeneration >I have a theory about _ghoulish degeneration_ that I would like to share >with everyone. A person's language (whether it is French, German, or >whatever) shapes how they view the world. What if the ghoul's language >(gibberings and meepings) shapes how the world views you? So the greater an >individual's skill in the ghoul language, the higher the chance of that >individual undergoing a _ghoulish degeneration_. What do you think? I believe that, even if a language partly shapes how you view the world since you have to have acquired a certaing set of concepts and channels of thought to understand that language, it's also a matter of the environment where you grow and not only the language you're taught. Then again, let's say that ghoulish language everything is pointed out in terms of rotten meat and grave digging (like the innuit with their words for snow), it would certainly shape your mind that way after awhile. :) Even if I don't think that fully understanding the language is enough to transform a person into a ghoul, it would be interesting to see if it would be enough to *trigger* the degeneration if you're one of the changelings. Ricardo J. Méndez rmendez@geocities.com PGP Fingerprint: 8D9A 2B53 5631 4594 DE6D 69DF 3DCA 37E0 C27A 4EAB ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 17:19:24 -0700 From: Josh Shaw Subject: Re: DG: How to Survive in a Lovecraft Story Excuse Me!!! Recon by Fire is an old and honorable military practice, it is not, however, what you described. RbF (Recon by Fire) goes like this. "Sargant, find out what's moving in those trees" RATTATTATTATTAT RATTATTATTATTATTATTATTAT!!!!!!! "Sir, it was a waterbuffelo......." What you were describing is a diferent time honored military practice, "Send the FNG" - ---Josh Jay and Mikiko Noyes wrote: > > Heh. This is also known as "Reconaissance by Fire." > > >Yes, but very frustrating if you are a keeper trying to have someting nasty > >happen to just one or two PCs. My last party were a case in point... one PC > >would go off to follow a lead (Player and Keeper disappear out of the room > >with dice and character sheets). PC then fails to make the evening > >rendevous. The party then collectively sighs and one of the other PCs (any > >one dosen't matter) says "Damn. We've lost another PI. Still, on the bright > >side, at least we now know where the cultists are. Better break out the > >hardware and go to give them a stiff talking to!".... Of course, now the > >rest of the PCs are expected and half the party gets killed in the ensuing > >bloodbath. Ho hum. Pass around new character sheets. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 22:50:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "G. Wyckoff" Subject: Re: DG: ghoulish degeneration > > A reasonable hypothesis: Prions are able to resist practically everything > you can throw at them (you can hit them with huge amounts of alpha, beta or > gamma radiation, and all they do is glow in the dark a bit. They are > resistant to proteases and oxidizing agents. And bleach. And UV-light. And Yep. Nasty business. > is somewhat important - if the incubation period is very short [2-5 years] > we are pretty much in the clear.... if on the other hand it is 15-20 years I had heard there was still some debate about this. > beef, that is). Genetic suscepibility could play a huge role here... those > who are going to become ghouls transform quickly; those who aren't > susceptible either live completely normal lives, or drop dead from CJD 20 > years later (or possibly the change just takes longer - remember this is > degeneration into a ghoulish state, and so must take some time by the > definition of degeneration... almost instantaneous ghoulish transformation > may occur in hypersusceptible individuals though, but this could be by > completely different means). You bring up a good point: possible genetic susceptibility to the ghoul state. Interesting idea. > On the contrary. There is a strong argument that it should teach them to be > more careful. After all, they ought to be handling such dubious forensic > evidence with rubber gloves to prevent them from cross-contaminating it! :) One would hope that they would have picked this up already, but... maybe you start to forget the little things when you think aliens are at the door. Jerry gwyckoff@midway.uchicago.edu Committee on Genetics U of Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael S Beck Subject: DG: Nonhuman SAN checks Recently, it occurred to me how odd it is that only humans go insane in the Cthulhu mythos. Logically, other sentients should go insane as well. For example, shouldn't Deep Ones make SAN checks when confronted with humans, or with a Mi-Go or a ghoul for that matter. After all, we are just as alien to them as they are to us, or to each other. Anyway, a couple of possibilities come to mind. 1-They are so fundamentally different from humanity that concepts like sanity and madness simply don't apply to them. To me this seems something of a cop-out. Also, they seem to be enough like us to understand how to disrupt our societies. 2-They already have gone mad. The Mythos creatures have been dealing with each other for so long that they all have effective SAN ratings of zero. They can't go down any further. 3-They do go mad when dealing with humans. That's why they work through cults so much, so that they have to have as little dealings with the hideously alien bipeds as possible. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:15:13 EDT From: Croaker Jr Subject: Re: DG: Nonhuman SAN checks MS Beck said... << Recently, it occurred to me how odd it is that only humans go insane in the Cthulhu mythos. Logically, other sentients should go insane as well. For example, shouldn't Deep Ones make SAN checks when confronted with humans, or with a Mi-Go or a ghoul for that matter. After all, we are just as alien to them as they are to us, or to each other. Anyway, a couple of possibilities come to mind. 1-They are so fundamentally different from humanity that concepts like sanity and madness simply don't apply to them. To me this seems something of a cop-out. Also, they seem to be enough like us to understand how to disrupt our societies. 2-They already have gone mad. The Mythos creatures have been dealing with each other for so long that they all have effective SAN ratings of zero. They can't go down any further. 3-They do go mad when dealing with humans. That's why they work through cults so much, so that they have to have as little dealings with the hideously alien bipeds as possible. >> The thing to remember IMO is the nature of insanity. In the cosmos of Call of Cthulhu, madness is the reaction of humans in learning the truth about things. (The slogan "The Truth Is Out There" takes on all new and interesting connotations when put into the context of Delta Green!) Something in us is too weak to handle reality; when we learn that we are not somehow at the center of things, something within us breaks. The various manifestations of insanity are sometimes symptoms of that breakage, or sometimes they are the behavior of one who sees things as they really are and no longer thinks and speaks from the same vantage point of the rest of humanity. "That time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones: free and wild and beyond good and evil...." Deep Ones and the Fungi from Yuggoth and the rest of the non-human sentients in Call of Cthulhu have for millions of years understood the truth about the cosmos and their place in it and the place of worlds in it, and they seem not to be susceptible to that weakness which causes humans so much distress when we reach that knowledge. As the End Times approach more and more of humanity will learn the truths which remove from us the veil which we call sanity; more and more will become as the Great Old Ones, as the hardier races (are the Fungi likely to be obliterated when the Old Ones reclaim the Earth for their own?) have already become. Welcome to Life According to Lovecraft. ;-) Shane Ivey http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6580/dg.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 16:49:14 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: Re: DG: Nonhuman SAN checks On Sun, 3 May 1998 18:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Michael S Beck writes: >Recently, it occurred to me how odd it is that only humans go insane >in >the Cthulhu mythos. Logically, other sentients should go insane as >well. >For example, shouldn't Deep Ones make SAN checks when confronted with >humans, or with a Mi-Go or a ghoul for that matter. After all, we are >just as alien to them as they are to us, or to each other. Anyway, a >couple of possibilities come to mind. >1-They are so fundamentally different from humanity that concepts like >sanity and madness simply don't apply to them. To me this seems >something >of a cop-out. Also, they seem to be enough like us to understand how >to >disrupt our societies. >2-They already have gone mad. The Mythos creatures have been dealing >with >each other for so long that they all have effective SAN ratings of >zero. >They can't go down any further. >3-They do go mad when dealing with humans. That's why they work >through >cults so much, so that they have to have as little dealings with the >hideously alien bipeds as possible. > > IMO "sanity" as we use the term is better referred to as "consensus reallity". It is what we, as a culture, agree to believe in. The various creatures of the Mythos have a VASTLY different view of reality that does not include conventional ideas of space-time. If it were possible to convince one of these that our view was true I suppose that they might gain a partial sanity stat while acting less sane from the point of view of their peers! This might be an interesting NPC concept to role play as a sub-plot! P.A. Posehn _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:33:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: DG: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA The discussion about Mythos races going insane brought up an interesting point, one concerning the crossbreeding of certain Mythos races with humanity, particularly ghouls and deep ones. Remember that the interbreeding of these races with us suggests that these two races are not wholly alien, but possibly the equivalent of the currently-existing human races. The suggestion is that the genetic makeup of these "aliens" is similar enough to that of humans for compatibility. Only a very small portion of our genetic code is used. Now, I'm certain geneticists know what this section of code would be used for. However, we're allowed to distort things in CoC: so are we all, at least latently, ghouls & deep ones? I don't have a great knowledge of genetics, so there may be some errors in my logic. But we'll leave that up to others on the list to decide. And that's my two cents. Andrew D. Gable agable@falcon.lhup.edu The CryptoWeb: www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/7270/ "Well, you've got to admit that if that is a woman, it does look as if she's been beaten with an ugly stick." -Austin Powers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:19:18 -0500 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricardo_J._M=E9ndez?=" Subject: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA >Only a very small portion of our genetic code is used. Is this so? Can anyone with the specific knowledge please elaborate? >Now, I'm certain >geneticists know what this section of code would be used for. However, >we're allowed to distort things in CoC: so are we all, at least latently, >ghouls & deep ones? Interesting. Not necessarily, but if there is really a portiong of the genetic code that is either unused or redundant (about which I don't know), we could not latent ghouls and deep ones, since nothing says that we have the same genes as them (we're only compatible), but could be altered into one. Then again, as far as I undestand this things, the Deep Ones could have a longer or totally different DNA string and still be reproductive-compatible with us. If that's the case, it would be harder to alter a human into a deep one. Can someone please bring us out of our collective ignorance? Ricardo J. Méndez rmendez@geocities.com PGP Fingerprint: 8D9A 2B53 5631 4594 DE6D 69DF 3DCA 37E0 C27A 4EAB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:31:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael S Beck Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA Well, I don't know that much about genetics but this does bring forth a truly frightening possibility. If we are all latent ghouls or Deep Ones, it would be possible to use genetic engineering techniques to create a retro-virus that would turn EVERYBODFY into a Deep One or a ghoul. And the Human Genome Project is mapping all of our genetic code even as we speak ... On Mon, 4 May 1998, [iso-8859-1] Ricardo J. Méndez wrote: > > >Only a very small portion of our genetic code is used. > > Is this so? Can anyone with the specific knowledge please elaborate? > > > >Now, I'm certain > >geneticists know what this section of code would be used for. However, > >we're allowed to distort things in CoC: so are we all, at least latently, > >ghouls & deep ones? > > > Interesting. Not necessarily, but if there is really a portiong of the > genetic code that is either unused or redundant (about which I don't know), > we could not latent ghouls and deep ones, since nothing says that we have > the same genes as them (we're only compatible), but could be altered into > one. > > Then again, as far as I undestand this things, the Deep Ones could have a > longer or totally different DNA string and still be reproductive-compatible > with us. If that's the case, it would be harder to alter a human into a > deep one. > > Can someone please bring us out of our collective ignorance? > > > > Ricardo J. Méndez > rmendez@geocities.com > PGP Fingerprint: 8D9A 2B53 5631 4594 DE6D 69DF 3DCA 37E0 C27A 4EAB > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:11:28 +0100 From: NICK Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA I can't bring anyone out of any kind of ignorance on this subject, as I'm not that well read on the subject as it is, but perhaps the unused genetic code is something the deep ones and ghouls exploit, rather than latent instructions for development into them which they somehow activate. this unused genetic code would make us, as a race, particularly suitable for any kind of genetic transformation, which is why the ghouls and deep ones target us, rather than say, each other. It would also account for how a single human being would be suitable for both deep one and ghoul breeding stock ( if we assume this is the case of course) If we are all indeed latent ghouls or deep ones of course, we'd all better start learning how to fire a shotgun with our toes... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:14:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "G. Wyckoff" Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA Hi all- > > >Only a very small portion of our genetic code is used. > > Is this so? Can anyone with the specific knowledge please elaborate? This has been put forth in a lot of literature written for lay people, and it is misleading in it's meaning. Only a fraction of the total amount of DNA in our genome actual contains coding regions which are translated to make proteins. BUT, these coding regions are spread throughout the whole genome, so you would be hard pressed to travel too far along a chromosome and not, eventually, find a coding region (a gene). The problem is that a lot of the non-coding portions of the genome are used to control the coding regions. However, it is a fact that a lot of the genome contains neither control regions or coding regions, and is considered by many to be "junk". > > > >Now, I'm certain > >geneticists know what this section of code would be used for. However, The genome is made up of DNA. This DNA is arranged into structures called chromosomes. Along the chromosomes lie genes. Theses genes code for proteins; that's all that genes do. These proteins control pretty much everything that goes on in your body; they are responsible for growth, for controlling your metabolism, etc. They are the units of which your cells are made, they control where different things are deposited in your body, they are used to digest your food. So, here's the thing. If you look at our genome and compare it to a chimps, there is an awful lot of similarity, especially in the coding regions of genes. This is because (and I don't mean to offend anyone's religious sensibilities, feel free to believe whatever you would like) scientists have surmised that humans and chimpanzees have, in the relatively recent (past 4 or 5 million years as an upper estimate) shared a common ancestor. If you go back far enough, _all mammals_ shared a common relative. In fact, it is believed that if you go back _really far_, all life on earth shares a common origin (or at least most life- there is some speculation that some bacteria might have arisen independently- to make my own biases clear, I believe that the evidence which suggests a common origin for all life on Earth is stronger than evidence to the contrary. What does this mean for CoC? If you believe that humans and "Deep Ones" share a common ancestor, there might be some homology (shared structure and function) between our genes and a deep one's genes. BUT, and let me make this clear, that _does not_ mean that the "junk" portions of our genome contain all that is necessary to make a human into a Deep One, any more than it means that we could "degenerate" into a chimpanzee. This is why that one Star Trek: TNG where everyone on the ship was "devolving" into different organisms because their introns were activated was so laughable. My take on the "degeneration" of a human into a Ghoul would be that a virus was actually interfering with our code and making new proteins which transforms the unfortunate victim into a ghoul. Think of it like cancer, in a way; if you change the structure of DNA in a gene, if you mutate it, you get abnormal functioning which could lead to a host of different diseases, including cancer. Picture changing genes in a specific pattern, in a specific way, and you could change a human into a ghoul. that's at least how I would work it in a campaign. We talked about Prions a little in this list, too. For Deep Ones, however, I don't see that there is any way to explain given our existing knowledge of genetics how a Deep One and Human could hybridize or how a human could transform into a deep one. I guess someone a little more creative might be able to come up with an explanation which doesn't contradict known genetics. I have a few ideas, if anyone really wants to hear my speculation about how to keep it within the realm of possibility, e-mail me. The above is all a _gross_ oversimplification of genetics, I just don't have the space or time to thoroughly explain it all here. BUT, if anyone is really interested, I recommend that you look for the "Cartoon guide to Genetics" by Larry Gonick. Don't laugh, it is a very well researched book pitched at a level for the average starting college student or maybe even upper level high-school student. It explains a lot of the basic concepts of genetics. > >we're allowed to distort things in CoC: so are we all, at least latently, > >ghouls & deep ones? so, just to restate it, I think maybe you could work it that humans and ghouls and humans and deep ones share a common ancestor in the past. How distant that relationship is, I would leave to the storyteller. But I would suggest making the transformations stay in the realm of the mystical and unexplainable unless you want to do a lot of research or if you don't mind bending science to make it fit your story. After all, it's a game, we should all have fun with it. > > Interesting. Not necessarily, but if there is really a portiong of the > genetic code that is either unused or redundant (about which I don't know), > we could not latent ghouls and deep ones, since nothing says that we have > the same genes as them (we're only compatible), but could be altered into > one. In fact, a lot of the genome is both redundant and unused. Also, genes consist of exons (that code for proteins) and introns (which are spacers between exons of the same gene). And, outside of the exons are the control regions for a gene. And, beyond that is more DNA that is, as far as we know, junk but which may reflect spaces needed between genes or may reflect accumulated junk over evolutionary time or may be genes which have ceased to function and over time accumulated enough mutations to look like junk (and therefore become non-functional). In order to be a gene, a piece of DNA needs certain pieces ( a start and stop "codon", think of this like the punctuation on a sentence), and it needs to be in frame. Look at it like this. You are reading a manuscript. It looks like this. aWYRIARGIPUQEIJAPIFUVHQ9UEIRGPQIUOEFVIJ<14POINT TIMES>UIRQIIMARY HAD A LITTLE LAMBierieioqealviqiqiaviuqvITS FLEECE WAS WHITE AS SNOWQWUROQWFOQWFO In this analogy, the <14POINT TIMES> is the control region, the is a start codon, the readable sentence begins, it is interrupted by some stuff, which in this case breaks the sentence into a logical part (this is not always the case) and than continues until the , the stop codon. Everything else is just spacers and junk. Reading the human genome is like reading a manuscript that looks like this, except finding the sentences are harder. Also, DNA consists of only four "parts" or letters, usually represented as A, C, T, or G, called nucleotides. So the above text, which uses a bunch of letters and numbers, is meant only as an analogy. > > Then again, as far as I undestand this things, the Deep Ones could have a > longer or totally different DNA string and still be reproductive-compatible > with us. If that's the case, it would be harder to alter a human into a > deep one. Actually, reproductive incompatability exists between even very closely related species in some cases, and a lot of times hybrids between closely related species are sterile. This is why I said before that Human-Deep Ones hybrids are a big stretch for known genetics. > > Can someone please bring us out of our collective ignorance? Well, like I said, I can't explain it all, but there is a quick primer, and I really suggest reading the "Cartoon Guide to Genetics" Warning: again, I will say that I am oversimplifying in a very large way, and it is hard to be totally accurate when one is oversimplifying. Genetics is a pretty big subject. Have fun exploring it. Also, I do not speak for my department or school in this post. Jerry gwyckoff@midway.uchicago.edu Committee on Genetics U. of Chicago ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #20 *******************************