From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #21 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Wednesday, May 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 021 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:11:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel M Harms Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA On Mon, 4 May 1998, [iso-8859-1] Ricardo J. Méndez wrote: > >Only a very small portion of our genetic code is used. > > Is this so? Can anyone with the specific knowledge please elaborate? It's debatable. I seem to recall that 10% of our DNA is used to code for proteins (exons). 10% does not code for anything (introns). There's another 80% which we're still not sure about. Yrs., Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:55:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jose Burgos Subject: Re: DG: CoC character sheet You can obtain all 3 character sheets by visiting the Chaosium website (under CoC) www.chaosium.com All 3 are in pdf format. José burgos_j@yahoo.com - ---"R. Michael Dukes" wrote: > > I am about to start an epic Coc/DG campaign which will begin in the > '20's and have ramifications and direct links to present-day characters > and events. My players have never played Cthulhu before, so I thought > I'd give them the works by starting in Cthulhu and continuing into Delta > Green. I was wondering if anyone else has done this, and to what > effect? Also, I have the DG PDF character sheet (thanks!)... I was > wondering if anyone had the 1920's CoC sheet in PDF? Just wondering. > > Agent MacCord > jedi@netusa1.net > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:02:38 -0600 From: Eric Brochu Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA Just to throw in my $0.02, I have a couple of theories of my own on the subject. My apologies if these kinds of ideas have already come up -- I only just joined the list. THEORY 1. The "science-fiction" explanation: Ghouls and deep ones did not evolve naturally. They were created by a technologically advanced race (the mi-go would be an obvious candidate) either by genetically engineering humans or by infecting human candidates with a virus that causes the gross physical change into a ghoul or deep one. The latter I think may be more interesting. The viruses wouldn't cause any genetic change at all -- meaning ghouls and deep ones are genetically human, which is why they can crossbreed with us so easily. The "Ghoul virus" might affect anyone, but require prolonged contact with an infectious agent. This also explains why people could become ghouls by reading books (contaminated with the virus) or by hanging out with ghouls. The "Deep One virus" might only affect people with a certain genetic ancestry, but be easily spread. This way, an uninfected person with the "Innsmouth look" could go through life just looking a bit weird (a simple inherited trait), but as soon as they come into contact with a long-lost (and infected) relative, or visit a certain ancestral town, they begin to notice certain ... changes, physically and mentally. THEORY 2. The "mystic shit" explanation: Ghouls and deep ones are native to the Dreamlands, not the waking world. DNA and other scientific questions are irrelevant, because the matter of crossbreeding requires only the logic and science of a dream. In this view, ghouls and deep ones are the manifestation of the collective unconsious and human squeamishness about sex and reproduction, death, the oceans, and the unknown. Whether it is that fear that created the ghouls and deep ones, or vice versa, is a kind of "the chicken or the egg" question. There are big holes in both these theories, of course. If this ever comes up in my own games, I'll probably drop hints about both, without ever resolving it. I'd hate to see my players' hard-earned terror of cemetaries and isolated seaside villages disappear in a puff of science. - - Eric. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:32:27 +0100 From: NICK Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA as I've always understood it, the deep ones are not native to this planet. that is not to say this was ever made explicit in Lovecraft, or even that they didn't roam the Earth before humankind evolved, but if so, then deep ones and humankind do not share anykind of common ancestor. The fact that deep ones are capable of using humans as breeding stock would suggest there is some kind of facility within the deep ones genetic structure that allows them to take advantage (literally) of other creatures DNA for reproduction purpouses. Some kind of highly developed survival mechanism is presumably at work. P.S. where did the mib go? He was amusing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:43:46 -0400 From: graemep@immag.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: Nonhuman SAN checks >Recently, it occurred to me how odd it is that only humans go insane in >the Cthulhu mythos. Logically, other sentients should go insane as well. >For example, shouldn't Deep Ones make SAN checks when confronted with >humans, or with a Mi-Go or a ghoul for that matter. After all, we are >just as alien to them as they are to us, or to each other. It's an intriguing possibility when you consider the implications for this: How about having Mi Go realising that there is order in the universe and going SANE when they encounter humans? :) Sorry. Just a rogue thought! Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:50:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: DG: The Cylinder Here's a news report I pulled off the Parascope website (www.parascope.com), from their conspiracy section. Remind anyone of the beginning of a certain X-Files episode? - ---------- MILITARY TO INSPECT "MYSTERY CANISTER" FOUND AT NEW ORLEANS AIRPORT May 27, 1997 The Army Chemical Biological Defense Command will inspect a foot-long pressurized stainless steel canister seized on May 22 by security personnel at New Orleans International Airport. An unidentified man attempted to pass the "mystery canister" through the X-ray machine on his way to the airport concourse, according to a Reuter report. Security officers asked the man to open the container, but he refused, saying that "it would release a noxious odor." When officers questioned him, the man fled the scene, according to airport spokeswoman Michelle Duffourc. The Army's Technical Escort Detachment at Pine Bluff, Arkansas, dispatched a three-man team to transport the canister to Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland for analysis. Police have not released a description of the man who tried to sneak the canister into the airport concourse. - ---------- STORY NOTES: In my campaign, I made the cylinder a container of shoggoth DNA being delivered to MJ-12's genetic base in Montana. The messenger was a Karotechia agent who had been stationed at Point 103. I think this story is very interesting as a scenario idea. They took the cylinder to Aberdeen Proving Grounds -- remember there were "bigfoot" sightings there and there were also rumors of illegal genetic research being conducted here back in '74 (IIRC). And that's my two cents. Andrew D. Gable agable@falcon.lhup.edu The CryptoWeb: www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/7270/ "Well, you've got to admit that if that is a woman, it does look as if she's been beaten with an ugly stick." -Austin Powers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:12:39 EDT From: Croaker Jr Subject: Re: DG: The Cylinder In a message dated 98-05-04 20:01:22 EDT, you write: << being delivered to MJ-12's genetic base in Montana. The messenger was a Karotechia agent who had been stationed at Point 103. >> Yesterday I saw a Learning Channel UFO special in which they discussed Nazi scientists who brought super-high tech secrets over to the Allies and the Soviet Union after WWII, and this got me thinking: what if there's more to the Karotechia than we've already read about? It might be an interesting angle to explore the "resuscitation" of Karotechia scientist who had some kind of dealings with the Greys and sold his knowledge to the highest bidder... perhaps DG rooted out his secrets and squelched them, but now there's a risk that he'll be resuscitated by the K. so that they can try to get in on the game that MJ-12 is already playing. Hmmmmm.... Shane Ivey http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6580/dg.htm (updated) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:06:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: DG: Ghouls & Another Genetic Scenario I had long been toying with the idea that the Greek legend of Lycaon was based on a ghoul metamorphosis. For anyone who's not familiar with the legend, Lycaon was a Greek king supposedly turned into a wolf for becoming a cannibal and trying to feed human flesh to Zeus. I liked the discussion of medical precedents for neurological degeneration associated with cannibalism. Kind of throws a whole new light on some of the werewolf trials of medieval Europe (particular Garnier & Peter Stubb), not to mention a possible tie-in with the wendigo psychosis. And Sergeant Bertrand, 'The Vampire of Montparnasse,' for that matter. Another thing I've considered as a scenario idea (in fact, one I'm working on now) takes the whole discussion about the Elephant Man and relates it to CoC. Briefly, for those who don't know, science right now is basically baffled as to what the Elephant Man had -- money was on neurofibromatosis for a while, but that theory fell through. Money now is on something called Proteus Syndrome (I'm not really sure what this is). Interesting thing was, he displayed no deformities until about the age of two. I'm not sure how this could fit into CoC/DG, but I'd suggest some connection with the lloigor or possibly the mi-go. It's just too good an anomaly to resist. And that's my two cents. Andrew D. Gable agable@falcon.lhup.edu The CryptoWeb: www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/7270/ "Well, you've got to admit that if that is a woman, it does look as if she's been beaten with an ugly stick." -Austin Powers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:20:45 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA Two things: 1) DeepOnes : The DNA / Anthropological aspects of Human/Deep One relationships relate to Aquatic Ape Theory. AAT basically states that some primates had an Aquatic stage in their evolution, like dolphins, otters etc. The theory goes on to suggest that missing links could be found if paleoanthropologists would do some digging in offshore areas or areas that used to be offshore. I'm not kidding, this theory actually exists (although it's not particularly well supported or credible). Also, it would seem that Cthulhu and his octopoids (sounds like a punk rock band :) have had something to do with the manipulation of Deep Ones. Thus any scientific filter we view the Deep Ones biology through would distort the reality altering magics used to create them in the first place. 2) GHOULS : DNA, genetics and paltry human science cannot possibly explain the Human Ghoul relationship. Connections with Dreamlands magic, the god Mordiggian and the Charnel realms would go farther to explain Ghouls than any Biological understanding we might pretend to have. This is why Ghouls are so dangerous and should all be flame broiled by the time Countdown is published :) CONCLUSIONS: If we take magic into account then it may not be possible to distinguish Ghouls and Deep Ones from homo sapiens sapiens with mere DNA testing. It could very well be that the DNA is identical to our own and the source of their differences are beyond the understanding of our science. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum "...you're a dead man!" - Dana Scully ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:06:12 -0700 From: Neil Laughlin Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA First off, let me say that Mr. Wyckoff did a _very_ good job on providing a basic overview of genetics. I was trying to work up the enthusiasm to summarize the topic (I'm an ex-Biological Sciences grad student), and was thrilled to come across someone who did it better than I could have. Now, onto adding the Mythos angle: On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:14:54AM -0500, G. Wyckoff wrote: > What does this mean for CoC? > > If you believe that humans and "Deep Ones" share a common ancestor, there > might be some homology (shared structure and function) between our genes > and a deep one's genes. BUT, and let me make this clear, that _does not_ > mean that the "junk" portions of our genome contain all that is necessary > to make a human into a Deep One, any more than it means that we could > "degenerate" into a chimpanzee. This is why that one Star Trek: TNG where > everyone on the ship was "devolving" into different organisms because > their introns were activated was so laughable. My take on humans converting into Deep Ones would be something like this: Deep Ones and humans can interbreed. Whether this is genetic compatibility, magical compatibility, or something else is your call. Personally, I'd considered Deep Ones to be native to the earth, so I'd go with a bizarre genetic compatibility, perhaps some sort of reproductive parasitism (this is sci-fi, not real biology). The product of a Deep One/human mating is a Deep One from birth, even if it looks human. That resemblance to humanity is a concealment technique. Like chameleons can change their colors, Deep One children can resemble their maternal parent (do we know of any human children of Deep One mothers?). But then, at some point after birth, the Deep One genetic heritage manifests, the disguised Deep One sloughs off the appearance of humanity, and regains its birthright. The above doesn't happen in that exact way in any organism I know of, but is similar to how cuckoos and cowbirds lay eggs in the nests of other bird species. The cuckoo chick dominates the nest, evicting the other hatchlings. The parent birds seem to be unable to tell the difference between the invading chick and their progeny, and take care of the cuckoo chick until it grows up and leaves them. It's a stretch to take this to a Deep One child in a human womb, but not a fantastic stretch. As an aside, I really despised that Star Trek episode -- apparently I'm not the only one. > My take on the "degeneration" of a human into a Ghoul would be that a > virus was actually interfering with our code and making new proteins > which transforms the unfortunate victim into a ghoul. Think of it like > cancer, in a way; if you change the structure of DNA in a gene, if you > mutate it, you get abnormal functioning which could lead to a host of > different diseases, including cancer. Picture changing genes in a specific > pattern, in a specific way, and you could change a human into a ghoul. > that's at least how I would work it in a campaign. We talked about Prions > a little in this list, too. Larry Niven wrote a book in the Ringworld series that, despite having characters as interested as wet cardboard, explored the possibility that what we know as the "adult human" is the larval stage of an more complex organism. Were I trying to explain the ghoul transformation, I'd follow this idea. Some portion of humanity has the ability to metamorphosize into a ghoul when given certain environmental hints, akin to how a caterpillar turns into a pupae and then a butterfly. If human biochemistry were sufficiently well-understood, scientists might come to understand the "ghoul transformation." Such an understanding might make a good element of a story, actually. For tones of Nazism, those who _can't_ turn into ghouls could be considered racially impure by a ghoul-worshipping group. Metamorphoses in biology are pretty much fundamental to modern developmental biology. Cell movement in developing C. elegans (a 1-mm worm) is precisely chartable, if not entirely understood. The study of fruit fly development (Drosophila, for those of you that went to better high schools than I and got to play with such things) is pretty interesting. It's a stretch to assign humans the ability to metamorphosize into ghouls, but only because they don't. If someone showed me a book that turned people into ghouls, and I had to try to explain it scientifically, I'd use the explanation I just pitched above, but put most of my work into trying to track down the environmental signal. > For Deep Ones, however, I don't see that there is any way to explain given > our existing knowledge of genetics how a Deep One and Human could > hybridize or how a human could transform into a deep one. I guess someone > a little more creative might be able to come up with an explanation which > doesn't contradict known genetics. I have a few ideas, if anyone really > wants to hear my speculation about how to keep it within the realm of > possibility, e-mail me. I think this sort of thing is interesting enough to discuss on the list, actually. Scientific or quasi-scientific explanations for the Mythos seem to be the cup of tea of certain groups within the setting, and putting together some hypotheses may be a good source of ideas for GMs. > Look at it like this. > > You are reading a manuscript. It looks like this. > > aWYRIARGIPUQEIJAPIFUVHQ9UEIRGPQIUOEFVIJ<14POINT TIMES>UIRQIIMARY > HAD A LITTLE LAMBierieioqealviqiqiaviuqvITS FLEECE WAS > WHITE AS SNOWQWUROQWFOQWFO > > In this analogy, the <14POINT TIMES> is the control region, the is > a start codon, the readable sentence begins, it is interrupted by some > stuff, which in this case breaks the sentence into a logical part (this is > not always the case) and than continues until the , the stop > codon. Everything else is just spacers and junk. > > Reading the human genome is like reading a manuscript that looks like > this, except finding the sentences are harder. Also, DNA consists of only > four "parts" or letters, usually represented as A, C, T, or G, called > nucleotides. So the above text, which uses a bunch of letters and numbers, > is meant only as an analogy. That's _really_ well-put. Neil Laughlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:53:40 -0500 From: "R. Michael Dukes" Subject: Re: DG: CoC character sheet Jose Burgos wrote: > > You can obtain all 3 character sheets by visiting the Chaosium website > (under CoC) www.chaosium.com > All 3 are in pdf format. > José > burgos_j@yahoo.com > > ---"R. Michael Dukes" wrote: > > > > I am about to start an epic Coc/DG campaign which will begin in the > > '20's and have ramifications and direct links to present-day > characters > > and events. My players have never played Cthulhu before, so I thought > > I'd give them the works by starting in Cthulhu and continuing into > Delta > > Green. I was wondering if anyone else has done this, and to what > > effect? Also, I have the DG PDF character sheet (thanks!)... I was > > wondering if anyone had the 1920's CoC sheet in PDF? Just wondering. > > > > Agent MacCord > > jedi@netusa1.net > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Thanks!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:12:06 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: DG: A Conversation with Joseph Camp CAST OF CHARACTERS: (mib) : The Man in Black (Joe) : Prof. Joseph Camp, Ph.D, MLS, B.S, Notary Public, esq. TRANSCRIPT BEGINS (MEMCON) : (Joe) : "What!? What is this? Who are you people?" (many mib's begin ransacking the Library of Congress) (mib) : "Sorry sir, routine intimidation." (flashes an unidentifiable badge) (Joe) : "I know you. You are that lunatic who infiltrated our computer system and talks to protomatter." (mib) : (Ignoring Joe) "Say is that a Cthulhu Statue? Cool!" (Joe) : "Put that down! That is a very valuable archeological artifact!" (mib) : "Really, I thought you could get these via mail order?" (he reads the inscription) "'Ptooi! Ptooi! Hack Cough! Bleah!' Man, whoever wrote this must've had a cold." (Joe) : "Those are cheap knockoffs, that is an original. Now, return it to me at once young man." (mib) : "No." (Joe) : "I'm telling you, I am not afraid of your thugs!" (mib) : "Hey, do these wings flap?" (snap) (snap) "Oops, er, uh, sorry." (Joe) : "ARRGH! Give it here!" (they struggle over the statue) (mib) : "Watch it! you'll break..." (the statue's head comes off) (Joe) : "The.. My.. You.." (mib) : "Here, let me see that. I'll just put the head and these wings, it's not that hard. Just like a vinyl kit. Now we just wait for the molecular glue to set and..." (mib drops the statue, it falls on the floor and breaks into a million pieces. Two mibs carrying Dr. Camp's desk trample the crumbled stone fragments and crush them into dust) (mib) : "Uh Oh." (Joe) : "..." (mib) : "Are you OK doc? You're turning all red." (Joe) : "I... am... so... pissed..." (mib) : "Look, I'm really sorry, I'll buy you a new one OK?" (Joe) : "I... am... going... to... kill... you guys." (mib) : "But Doc, I brought you some protomatter." (Joe) : "Kill... you... guys..." (mib) : "See, here it is, I would've sold it to Zor except he said that all it was good for was growing an invincible army of fifty-foot warriors." (Joe) : "You put protomatter in a tupperware container?!" (mib) : "And...?" (Joe) : "Would you and your identically dressed counterparts please, please, GET THE HELL OUT OF MY LIBRARY!" (mib) : "Whoa! Pipe down Doc, you can't shout in a Library." (Joe) : "IT IS MY LIBRARY AND I WILL SHOUT AS LOUD AS I WANT! YOU UNCONSCIENABLE MENACE!" (mib) : "Geez, if that's the way you wanna be. GUYS! pack it up, we're outta here!" (Joe) : "Thank you, Jesus." (mib) : "Oh, by the way, where do you want this protomatter?" (Joe) : "Just put it anywhere and leave me alone." (mib) : "I'll just put it in the refrigerator." (Joe) : "Just go away, far far away." (sobs) (mib) : "Will it be safe in this refrigerator? What if someone eats it?" (Joe) : "Far far away." (whimpers) (mib) : "Better leave a note." (writes on a yellow post-it note:) EVIL JELLO DO NOT EAT! (mib) : "OK, Bye Doc, nice meeting you." (Joe) : (sobs) TRANSCRIPT ENDS The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum "Roswell! Roswell!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:30:00 -0500 From: "Gregory S. Secaur" Subject: DG: Scientology > ...are any of us.. (you know who I'm talking about...) prior members of > the church of scientology? > if so, what is the chance that we can hear some information about it. I > know (from hear say)that they only share more info of the religion as you > give them more money. (is that true) and I would like to hear anything > else people have to say about it. Since I haven't seen any other responses to your question, here are my two cents: One of my college pals has become obsessed with exposing the Church of Scientology as an honest-to-goodness cult (in the brainwashing, Kool-Aid-spiking sense). He has lots of related material on his web pages. Check out . Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:36:07 -0500 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricardo_J._M=E9ndez?=" Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA >I think this sort of thing is interesting enough to discuss on the list, >actually. Scientific or quasi-scientific explanations for the Mythos >seem to be the cup of tea of certain groups within the setting, and >putting together some hypotheses may be a good source of ideas for >GMs. Quite true. Not only that, but given that Delta Green is set on a highly technological era, it's good to have a tech background for when your players wish to rationalise things. Hell, if they're going against the forces of chaos they might at least have *that*. :) And that genetics explanation was great. I also want to point our something that has had me quite happy since I joined the list: the quality of the postings. I have to say that this list has a higher content and content quality than anything I've ever read, and I suppose that Pagan must be quite proud to have inspired it. Good luck everyone, Ricardo J. Méndez rmendez@geocities.com PGP Fingerprint: 8D9A 2B53 5631 4594 DE6D 69DF 3DCA 37E0 C27A 4EAB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:20:11 +1000 From: Rob Shankly Subject: Re: DG: Scientology Greetings all: Gregory S. Secaur wrote: (Cut) > One of my college pals has become obsessed with exposing the Church of > Scientology as an honest-to-goodness cult (in the brainwashing, > Kool-Aid-spiking sense). He has lots of related material on his web pages. > Check out . > > Greg I know a Scientology attacker too. For what it's worth, try http://arcadia.buseco.monash.edu.au/~coljac/ No claims, representations or warrantees, explicit or implied, are made about the contents. - -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:19:20 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: How to Survive in a Lovecraft Story >Recon by Fire is an old and honorable military practice, it is not, >however, what you described. > >RbF (Recon by Fire) goes like this. > >"Sargant, find out what's moving in those trees" >RATTATTATTATTAT RATTATTATTATTATTATTATTAT!!!!!!! >"Sir, it was a waterbuffelo......." > >What you were describing is a diferent time honored military practice, >"Send the FNG" I stand most humbly corrected. What's an FNG? Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:47:46 -0700 From: alank@shermanloan.com (Alan L. Krause) Subject: Re: DG: How to Survive in a Lovecraft Story Jay wrote: > I stand most humbly corrected. What's an FNG? F'ing New Guy. :> - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan L. Krause Network Administrator / Programmer Extraordinaire alank@shermanloan.com Sherman and Associates, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:47:58 -0400 From: Joel_Lovell@mastercard.com Subject: Re: DG: How to Survive in a Lovecraft Story FNG = F*****g New Guy ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) on 05/05/98 10:19:20 AM Please respond to Delta Green List To: Delta Green List cc: (bcc: Joel Lovell/NYC/MASTERCARD) Subject: Re: DG: How to Survive in a Lovecraft Story >Recon by Fire is an old and honorable military practice, it is not, >however, what you described. > >RbF (Recon by Fire) goes like this. > >"Sargant, find out what's moving in those trees" >RATTATTATTATTAT RATTATTATTATTATTATTATTAT!!!!!!! >"Sir, it was a waterbuffelo......." > >What you were describing is a diferent time honored military practice, >"Send the FNG" I stand most humbly corrected. What's an FNG? Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:36:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: DG: British Government Query A question for all our UK subscribers or anyone else who might know: what is the equivalent in the British system of the Center for Disease Control? I assume Britain has some sort of governmental agency investigating medical matters. And would the CDC profiles given in the DG book be applicable to members of this agency? And that's my two cents. Andrew D. Gable agable@falcon.lhup.edu The CryptoWeb: www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/7270/ "Well, you've got to admit that if that is a woman, it does look as if she's been beaten with an ugly stick." -Austin Powers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:20:56 -0400 From: graemep@immag.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: British Government Query Andrew Gable wrote: >A question for all our UK subscribers or anyone else who might know: what >is the equivalent in the British system of the Center for Disease Control? >I assume Britain has some sort of governmental agency investigating >medical matters. And would the CDC profiles given in the DG book be >applicable to members of this agency? > The British equivalent is the Public Health Laboratory Service (PHLS), based in Colindale North London. I can dig out the website address for you and post it later, if you like. My boss is starting to wonder if I will be doing some work at some point today.... Oh, he's left the room. That's better. The equivalent to USAMRIID is the Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment (CBDE) based at Porton Down in Wiltshire. They don't do any work on developing biological weapons though... honest guv! There are also several lesser known establishments which work on veterinary pathogens and so on. I will try to look out all this data. The templates based in DG should be mostly applicable, but Doctor or Professor from CoC would do nicely as well. If you need any info about equipment, techniques or so on, E-mail me. Graeme Graeme Price PhD. Program in Molecular Immunology Institute of Molecular Medicine & Genetics Medical College of Georgia 1120 15th Street, CB-2803 Augusta, Georgia 30912-3175 U.S.A. Tel(lab): (+001) 706-721-8883 Fax: (+001) 706-721-8732 E-mail: graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:20:55 -0400 From: graemep@immag.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA >Jerry wrote: Lots of good stuff about genetics, which I have brutally deleted! > >For Deep Ones, however, I don't see that there is any way to explain given >our existing knowledge of genetics how a Deep One and Human could >hybridize or how a human could transform into a deep one. I guess someone >a little more creative might be able to come up with an explanation which >doesn't contradict known genetics. Well, that sounded like a challenge to me! So here goes with my bizarre theory: For a major change from human to Deep One (in my mind ghoulish degeneration is a different thing - possibly due to contagion, possibly not: see the earlier posts on the matter) to occur, multiple genes must be involved. This is logical and based on biological fact: different genes for different things (claws, webbed feet etc) would need to be switched on and off for the "change" to occur. However, here is where I go slightly more offbeat (but not much). If we assume that various Deep One genes are latent in the human genome (which granted is a big assumption), the main problem (as I see it) is that lots of genes must be switched on and off in the correct order. This could be controlled by a master gene (I will call this gene "X") which acts as the "Deep One Change Activator Gene" or immediate early gene (to steal a phrase from my virology background). If transcription of X is triggered (by whatever cause: a virus, magic, chemicals or listening to Spice Girls records for example), the X gene product switches on the next step of the change (genes V, W, X, and Z: or early genes). Now these gene products have their own effects (V switches off host genes A, B and C; W switches on the next stage of Deep One genes P, Q, R, S and T; Y regulates V and W). Then P,Q,R,S and T switch off D,E,F and G and switch on H, I, J, K and L. And so on... leading to temporally (and spatially) regulated gene expression resulting in the Change. This "cascade effect" is based on known biological mechanisms: it is exactly what happens during Drosophila (Fruit fly) development, and in the development of all higher organisms during gestation and growth (and in much simpler organisms such as bacteria, yeast and some viruses). It also has some interesting implications: If the Master Gene (X) is the "susceptibility gene" (i.e without this gene you cannot undergo the Change) and all other genes are latent and spread around the chromosomes, interbreeding easily becomes possible. Secondly, if the X-gene is recessive it allows an "immune carrier state" to exist: that is, unless there are two copies of X (one on each copy of the chromosome: humans and all higher organisms are diploid - they have two copies of each chromosome, one from the mother, one from the father), the X-gene cannot become activated. Consider the situations below where X represents the Master Gene and O represents an inactive version of X: The genotype XX (called a homozygote) is fully susceptible to the change The genotype OO (also a homozygote) is fully resistant to the change The genotypes OX or XO (called heterozygotes) are carriers, so are not susceptible to the change, but can pass the X gene on to their offspring: Now, depending on the parents, the following things can happen: Parents Offspring OO + XX OX, OX, XO, XO : no susceptibles, all carriers XX + XX XX, XX, XX, XX : all susceptible OO + OO OO, OO, OO, OO : all resistant OX + OO OO, OO, OX, XO : 2 carriers, 2 resitant OX + XX XX, XO, OX, XX : 2 carriers, 2 susceptible XO + OX OO, OX, XO, XX : 1 susceptible, 2 carriers, 1 resistant Doubtless I have made a simple mistake somewhere above, and will be corrected, but you get the idea. Not everyone is going to be susceptible even on the basis of one gene causing the change... but on the otherhand if you get unlucky and both your parents are carriers, the you have a 25% chance of being susceptible (or resistant... Oh the fickle hand of eukaryotic genetics!). But it goes further. What if you are deficient in one of the other genes involved in the change? Well, it could block the change completely, or it could have little effect, or it could be lethal (viz. you die in screaming agony in an insane asylum raving about the wonders of the deep!). It also means that treatment (gene therapy?) may not be possible once the change has started (for example X could be switched off by Z to keep the process regulated correctly - otherwise V, W, Y and Z would be expressed all the time - which would be bad!), but might be possible before the process begins (keeping X switched off all the time would prevent the Change). It also makes X very hard to find (you suspect there is an activator that does something, but by the time the "symptoms" of the change are observable, X is no longer expressed!) And don't look to the human genome project to solve it either. As all the genes would show up as perfectly normal (as most people would have at least some of them) then there is no way to identify them (which is the major flaw of the HGP: whose genome are they sequencing to define as normal: current estimates suggest that each of us has 6-9 mutated genes). Also if carriers are otherwise perfectly normal human beings (apart from having one copy of the X gene) what can you do about them? This should provide food for thought for the kill-'em-all school who would wipe out all traces of the Deep Ones or ghouls... they may actually be committing genocide on normal humans if they use presence of X as a diagnostic tool for who gets a bullet in the brain (Mandatory d20 SAN loss when they finally pass an Idea Roll, Keepers). Anyway, I could go on but I think I've said enough. Doubtless there are some flaws in my thinking, but I'm an infectious disease specialist not a molecular biologist! Hope it is of some interest to someone though Regards Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:57:10 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: Re: DG: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA How about some place ...say near Chernoble, where both humans and ghouls leave their mutated offspring exposed to die,,,Sometimes an exchange of sorts is made. Phil _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:43:57 -0500 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ricardo_J._M=E9ndez?=" Subject: Re: DG: Re: Ghouls, Deep Ones & DNA Quite an interesting theory, I must say. >Well, that sounded like a challenge to me! So here goes with my bizarre >theory: [...] >And don't look to the human genome project to solve it either. As all the >genes would show up as perfectly normal (as most people would have at least >some of them) then there is no way to identify them (which is the major >flaw of the HGP: whose genome are they sequencing to define as normal Those of 10 original Karotechia members, of course. Who did you think was running it? :) Ricardo J. Méndez rmendez@geocities.com PGP Fingerprint: 8D9A 2B53 5631 4594 DE6D 69DF 3DCA 37E0 C27A 4EAB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:54:08 +0100 From: Stephen Pritchard Subject: Re: DG: British Government Query I think it all comes under the Ministry of Defense, (Defense of the Realm, don'tcha know..) but the facility that houses scientists involved in bioweapons research (just for defense, of course) is Porton Down. In message , Andrew D. Gable writes > >A question for all our UK subscribers or anyone else who might know: what >is the equivalent in the British system of the Center for Disease Control? >I assume Britain has some sort of governmental agency investigating >medical matters. And would the CDC profiles given in the DG book be >applicable to members of this agency? > > And that's my two cents. > > Andrew D. Gable > agable@falcon.lhup.edu > The CryptoWeb: www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/7270/ > > "Well, you've got to admit that if that is a woman, it > does look as if she's been beaten with an ugly stick." > -Austin Powers > Stephen Pritchard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 8:55:00 +0100 From: Adam.Crossingham.Octavian@mktmail.com Subject: Re: DG: CoC character sheet R. Michael Dukes writes I was wondering if anyone had the 1920's CoC sheet in PDF? Try these (provided by the resourceful Kirk Eichler): http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/index.shtml which points to http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/celaeno/1890s-5ed.pdf http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/celaeno/1920s-5ed.pdf http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/celaeno/1990s-5ed.pdf but these are only Acrobat versions of the PS files (which I personally dislike) available at the Chaosium FTP site. Shannon Appel has said that new CoC 5.5 character sheets may be available in .PDF after the new edition's release. If you want something that is a _very_ close version of the 5th ed. rulebook use the Byakhee char. gen. program at: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/4173/byakhee.ht ml and change the headings to use the Benguiat typeface. HTH - -- Adam Crossingham home: tigger@the-wolery.demon.co.uk work: Adam.Crossingham.Octavian@mktmail.com ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #21 *******************************