From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #36 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Tuesday, June 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 036 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 16:56:02 +1000 From: Rob Shankly Subject: Re: DG: real life references... Gerry Mckelvey wrote: > I managed to get a copy of the Writers guide to poisons (man, the that > store clerk give me a funny look when I ordered it...I think she wrote my > name and telephone number down too....). It breaks down poisons by > availibility, effective dosage, leathality, and symptoms. Great book for a > game master! Yes it is. IMHO the best in the "Howdunnit" series. > More the more destructive types out there, there is also a > writers guide to firearms and one for demolitions...I havent' gotten them > yet, but any semi-decent catalog should give you the ISBN order number...I > play with a pretty combat oriented group and don't know all the ins and > outs of guns, so I'm thinking of ordering some more books on the subject.. > just my two cents... Be warned about the guide to Firearms- it is not as detailed as you might like. The author (Michael Newton) seems primarily concerned to prevent idiotic mistakes by writers (i.e: 7 shot .44 magnum revolvers). The book is a good introduction if you don't know _any_ of the ins and outs of guns, but the appendices in DG should get you to the same level. I suggest you borrow a copy (inter-library loan?) rather than buying. It does have a very good bibliography, which will take you where you need to go. There are several other books in the series worth a long look as well: "Scene of Crime Investigation", "Forensic Pathology" "Body Trauma" and "Private Investigations" are all excellent. Check out Amazon to avoid funny looks from clerks*, the publisher is >Writers Digest Books<. *I have discovered a shop (Kill City, Melbourne) that stocks most of these, along with a tasteful line of Manson gang confession books, "American Psycho" posters, coffee-table books of murder scene photographs, etc. A great place to hang out, since you can watch inexperienced shoppers come in and react to some of the merchandise. The staff are all pleasant suburban types who read gardening magazines. Makes you wonder. - -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au Get your facts right first and then you can distort them as much as you please. - - Mark Twain ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:36:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Don Juneau Subject: Re: DG: RE: re: DG in the UK On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, The Man in Black wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Don Juneau didn't drink the damn cup!: > > > I've got various bits and pieces of an Arrowhead campaign in mind, but > > I've not yet found a nice common-thread to tie it all together. > > Didn't I see the Arrowheads on the GIJOE RPG mailing list? Nope, wrong Arrowheads. Project Arrowhead was part of that Stephen King novella THE MIST, and when I did that scenario-framework, I decided that there had to be more than just *that* out there. Preliminary thoughts are a non-MJ12 operation, primarily corporate/ex-Navy, but being developed/tested via military connections. It would show in the "Report", but figuring out that there was a gateway to Glaaki in the midwest would be a little less obvious. I think there'd be some split from the original OSS-era DELTA GREEN, but dealing with Unit 731-type Japanese experimentation in bio/chem and the Mythos... ONI & NIS would be logical places for it to start, but the Air Force and Army would be involved soon enough - all kind of "quiet"-like, due to the involvement of some higher-ranking types. All "under construction" in a big way, tho. I'm *much* slower than PaganPub. Don,arrgggh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:11:16 +0100 From: Nick Subject: Re: DG: GM Assitance Needed. Don wrote: <> To which I say; (Agent pistol whips CI) Agent: Do you know who I work for you little prick? No; you don't, and you never will because you're just the shit on the heel of my shoe. You even dream about fucking with me and you are 'dissapeared'. IA? Hah!I fucking own IA... (and so on) Remember;-"Kemper Boyd always says, 'Cow your informants'..." I'm actually using CI's as PC DG 'friendlies' in a current campaign - they think they're working with a 'secret' DEA task-force. Seems to be working quite well so far, too. It's also worth remembering that as far as intelligence gathering goes, it's not so much about James Bond style stuff, but about the recruitment and 'running' of an elaborate network of informants... which makes them ideal PC's from my point of view, aswell as the possibilities for Npc's recently discussed. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:50:44 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: DG: Re: DG Op revealed on CNN! > > > If OPERATION TAILWIND wasn't covering up for DG-agents who'd seen one too > many Dark Young...I mean why use nerve gas? > > Til Eulenspiegel > , Well, if you're not sure just what it is you're going up against, and really want to make sure it goes away to bother someone else...why not use the nastiest thing in you're arsenal? Chemical weapons are *not* a nice way to go....esp nerve agents. Anyone who was in Desert Storm got the weapons brief on that stuff, and I know that I'll never forget some of the pictures they showed me....yuk. but in DG, you'd get the cultists and maybe thier monster...at the least, you'd also get the monster's food supply - if it was immune, the nerve agent could very well just coat the critter and he'd carry it around with him for a while and it'd kill/contaminate his food supply no matter what he'd do... then he/it would go looking for more food, only to find the nearest VC village...well, you get the picture... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 98 10:24:09 -0700 From: Joseph Camp Subject: Re: DG: GM Assitance Needed. >Remember;-"Kemper Boyd always says, 'Cow your informants'..." Yes, but Kemper Boyd died in a cheap motel in Mississippi. be seeing you, Alphonse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 15:40:39 -0400 From: Daniel Harms Subject: RE: DG: X-Files At 08:12 AM 6/8/98 +0900, you wrote: >Considering the incredible inanity of the average TV exec, I'd say it's >actually a really good idea to follow this advice. The X-Files computer >game is coming out soon--you can bet that the RPG is not far behind. >Once the corporate lawyers hear about Delta Green, they'll look for any >chance to "enforce their copyright" (while saying, "You know how >copyright laws are in the US...we have no choice but to enforce it. >Nothing personal.") and crush any competition. I'd love to see them try. Delta Green first appeared in TUO 7, back in the fall of 1992. If there was any sort of overlap in characters/setting/ what have you, that might be the case, but all that it really overlaps with is the UFO lore which has been going around for years. Yrs., Daniel Harms dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu "Fie on the immortality of cast-iron lawn deer!" -- H. P. Lovecraft ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:43:10 -0400 From: "Elliot A. Rushing" Subject: Re: DG: X-Files I'm new to the list, so I probably should lurk, but I wanted to point out something about copyright law that may help -- Copyright protects a person's creation in terms of particular story points, characters, et al., but it doesn't protect a broad, abstract *idea* (for example, paranoid government agents hunting monsters). The trick, really, is determining whether two products merely have similar ideas, or whether one is derivative of the other in the sense that it "rips off" important characters, plots, and so forth without attributing them properly or with permission. When making this determination, the relative timeframe during which the two pieces were written is obviously important. Since it's a case by case analysis, game creators are wisely advised to be careful about the similarity between their works and currently-existing popular works by other creators. Folks often confuse copyright law with trademark law, which has a narrower focus (specific marks identifying a brand) but broader protection (having a similar or exact mark is prohibited, period). Given Delta Green's premise (a modern adaptation of Lovecraftian horror tales), there's a good (I think winning) argument that Delta Green and The X-Files share little more than the "modern horror" genre -- of course, that's debatable, but then, so much in life is. If Delta Green *centered* on a dark-haired male FBI agent and his diminutive but strikingly attractive and erudite red-haired female partner who occasionally dealt with a chain-smoking thin "Gray man" while persistently searching for truths concerning government coverups of alien/paranormal phenomena, my opinion would of course be different. ;) The genre-similar "Conspiracy X" RPG might have a bit tougher time since it arguably shares a trademark ("X") with a prior property. But even though there may be some colorable argument concerning trademarks, the Conspiracy X background is sufficiently different that I think it would survive a copyright challenge (although again, reasonable minds may differ). Hope this helps. :) Elliot. - ---- Elliot A. Rushing Deputy Sheriff, Sheriff's Counsel Union County Sheriff's Office, Monroe, NC >At 08:12 AM 6/8/98 +0900, you wrote: > >>Considering the incredible inanity of the average TV exec, I'd say it's >>actually a really good idea to follow this advice. The X-Files computer >>game is coming out soon--you can bet that the RPG is not far behind. >>Once the corporate lawyers hear about Delta Green, they'll look for any >>chance to "enforce their copyright" (while saying, "You know how >>copyright laws are in the US...we have no choice but to enforce it. >>Nothing personal.") and crush any competition. > >I'd love to see them try. Delta Green first appeared in TUO 7, back in >the fall of 1992. If there was any sort of overlap in characters/setting/ >what have you, that might be the case, but all that it really overlaps with >is the UFO lore which has been going around for years. > >Yrs., > > > >Daniel Harms dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu >"Fie on the immortality of cast-iron lawn deer!" > -- H. P. Lovecraft > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:59:14 -0700 From: alank@shermanloan.com (Alan L. Krause) Subject: Re: DG: real life references... ... >"American Psycho" posters, coffee-table books of murder scene >photographs, etc. >A great place to hang out, since you can watch inexperienced shoppers >come in and react to some of the merchandise. The staff are all pleasant >suburban types who read gardening magazines. Makes you wonder. Makes me wonder what they might be using as fertilizer for their gardens.... - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan L. Krause Network Administrator / Programmer Extraordinaire alank@shermanloan.com Sherman and Associates, Inc. "God is dead." -Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead." -God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:59:01 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: DG: Request for Asst. Does anybody out there know where to obtain remaindered copies of the JANE'S books? The new ones are WAY too expensive but out of date copies would be perfect for GMs! Phil _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:47:05 EDT From: CroakerJr@aol.com Subject: DG: DG site directory I would like to compile an index of list members' Delta Green websites to add to my own DG site. If you have one and you want to include it, please e-mail the URL to me. Thanks! Shane Ivey croakerjr@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6580/dg.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:18:07 -0700 From: Neil Laughlin Subject: DG: Test, sorry. Test, please ignore (sorry!). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:28:20 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: real life references... On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 Escutcheon@aol.com revealed his morbid facination with the grave: > I heard that the book on firearms wasn't very good. I do have the writer's > digest book, Cause of Death. It is well written and gave me several ideas > about nasty forensic details. The writer's guide to firearms was slammed for inaccuracy and shoddy research in a gaming magazine, either TUO or Pyramid. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum RIP Pyramid 1-30 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:38:13 EDT From: Imandos@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: DG site directory Shane wrote that he would like to have everyone's Delta Green websites to add to his own and this reminded me of something those of us on the Rolemaster list have done. We sent our names, locations, Roleplaying games we play, emails and ICQ #s to the list and one of the members is listing them on his web page. If anyone has space for this information on their page and if people are interested, this would be a helpful list to access when in need of local gamers or as a contact list when moving. I look forward to hearing everyone's opinion of such a list. I don't have a page up right now or I would offer to collect this information. Thomas Woodall Imandos@aol.com ICQ# 5834343 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:24:04 EDT From: theherald@juno.com (Michael Layne) Subject: Re: DG: GM Assitance Needed. On Mon, 8 Jun 98 10:24:09 -0700 Joseph Camp writes: >>Remember;-"Kemper Boyd always says, 'Cow your informants'..." > >Yes, but Kemper Boyd died in a cheap motel in Mississippi. > >be seeing you, >Alphonse > If I dropped a cow on each of my informants, they probably wouldn't talk to me again! :) Michael theherald@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:55:07 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: X-Files - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Duran Goodyear 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年6月8日 11:17 件名 : RE: DG: X-Files Duran Goodyear responded: > Agreed, Copyright laws are weird, and not put together that well. > But, how could they try and shut down DG? > It's been published before any possible X-Files game. I'm not saying a suit would have to make sense or even have a chance of winning. I mean, look at the Scientologists. Harrassment is an end unto itself. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:30:18 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: Awefull believability - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Josh Shaw 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年6月8日 10:17 件名 : Re: DG: GM Assitance Needed. >> Josh Shaw gibbered and squeaked: > >Gibbered? Moi? Sorry, offhand Shakespeare reference (Hamlet, and itself a reference to one of S's other plays, Julius Ceaser--product placement in the Renaissance!). Besides, gibbering is fun. Relieves the tension. Just ask any Japanese macaque. Try it sometime. > >> Could you elaborate on what you mean by "awefull believability"? Sounds >> intriguing...might want to use it myself. >> >He >assumes, if only momentarilly (and in truth, only partially) the full >faith of his youth and the true call to witness to the power of The Lord >to the unbelievers (the rest of the party both characters and players). Mmm, sounds sweet. Could have potential. Y'see, I'm running a game set in Texas mostly. Having this very mixed up believer/nonbeliever preacher who can convince others better than he can convince himself...well, just fits the whole Texas setting real nice. >In a sense this is playing with the *player's* own history and >psychological issues and probably should not be done with really fragile >personalities or people who have a hard time distinguishing their game >realities from real life, but it can make for *great* roleplaying. I've known a few folks who I wouldn't role-play with, certainly not in something as intense as CoC. For others, it can actually serve as therapy. >Does that answer your question or did you have something deeper and >darker in mind. If so, can you describe it? We might be able to try to >re-create it. Well, that spelling of "awefull" made it sound rather Lovecraftian, as in "onlie the awefullest livliness" or however the heck it was spelled, re: resurrections gone bad. The idea that the preaching leads folks to a sort of "born again" gone bad is I guess what was latching onto my rearbrain. Now think about this--the guy goes into a sort of fugue state when his preaching gets really intense. He doesn't know what he's saying. When he comes out of it, the folks around him are "doing the Lord's work," which can be any horrible thing you want it to be. Should be connected with Christianity, of course. A real sin-and-damnation preaching should contain plenty of potential for starting a riot, stoning the adulteresses, eye-for-an-eye, slaughter the unbelievers, etc. In a recent scenario, I had a situation where the Mi-Go took out a Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign stronghold by calling up Azatoth, with the big "Eye in the Sky" form a la "The Stars Are Right". This was down in Mexico near an isolated village. The village, which had a large Catholic church and a small Pentacostal church (the Pentacostals are making considerable headway in Mexico lately) split into warring factions. After seeing the Eye, the Pentacostals declared it to be the Lord and assumed it was a sign to kill the Catholics. The Catholics, on the other hand, had already been infiltrated by several worshippers of Shub-Niggurath, and those folks were able to take over, worshipping the Dark Goat through the Madonna, and attacked the heretical Protestants. The PCs were just caught up in the middle of this as the town tore itself apart. Hey, how about receiving the gift of tongues from Nyarlathotep? Oh, I love this list! David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:35:28 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: Another Delta - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : CroakerJr@aol.com 宛先 : deltagreen@nocturne.org 日時 : 1998年6月8日 4:33 件名 : Re: DG: Another Delta >Will the REAL pawn of the Fungi please stand up? Now there's a question: Do we really believe that the Fun Guys from Yuggoth are only fucking, er, dealing with the US of A? What are they pulling with the rest of the world? And what gifts are they giving in return for cooperation? Gibbering quietly to himself, David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:22:20 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: Drunken rant (some spoilers) - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : CroakerJr@aol.com 宛先 : deltagreen@nocturne.org 日時 : 1998年6月7日 6:26 件名 : Re: DG: Drunken rant Jay drunkenly ranted and Shane soberly responded: ><< I suggest that, even in the unreal realm of the mythos, Nyarlathotep does > not in any physical way exist. Instead, in all his many forms he is the > embodiment of the sum total of humanities spiritual power. >> > >Maybe this is just my innate conservatism showing, but I still kind of prefer >Lovecraft's version. Nyarlathotep is the soul of the Outer Gods, the true >powers of the Cosmos. Nyarlathotep fucks with us because it is conscious, >seems to have a gift for showing sentient creatures what they want to see, and >likes fucking with things. I agree, and yet, Jay's ideas have some definite potential for further exploration. Now, the Big N may not actually be God, but could it have started that whole Christianity thing for kicks? Or, rather, twisted it to its own purposes. No, Jesus wasn't Nyarlathotep--Paul was. Jesus' true vision (which was a very conservative, orthodox Judaism, and an anti-Roman nationalism) was completely hijacked by Paul. If Jesus came back (which I doubt he ever even considered possible), he'd have no fucking idea what this whole Christianity thing is. ("My mother was a virgin? I walked on water? What, are you guys crazy?") And, of course, you have only to check the history books to see how useful Christianity has been to the Mythos over the years. Ditto Islam, Judaism, Buddhism (there's a book out recently about how Japanese Buddhists preached support for the war), Hindu (duck and cover!), and the rest. In fact, I think the religious impulse was hard-wired into our brains at some point, perhaps by the Elder Things, perhaps by Mi-Go genetic manipulation, to make us easier to control. Then again, a lot of religions at least started out as ways to break free of all that (before getting hijacked and turned into the opiate of the masses). Look at Gnosticism, which posits that the Earth was created by an insane, idiot god, that our bodies (including brains) are purposefully flawed to keep us chained down, and that if we can break free of the limitations designed into us, we can become as gods ourselves (Steven Alzis, anyone?). And Buddhism, when reduced to its purest form, is not quite a religion in the western sense but really a way to "open the mind's eye" and see Reality (like that brat in "At Your Door"). Of course such religions don't do terribly well. It's just a lot easier to simply follow the rules and get into heaven, and that's what Buddhism has become for most of its adherents. Gnosticism was, of course, smashed by the Church (although its resurfaced many times, and is doing so again today) as a competitor. SO! Here's my question. If that little kid in "At Your Door" can have his mind's eye opened, what about the players? If satori or gnosis or whatever are achievable in CoC, what is the effect, and what's the mechanic? I've been considering a limited crossover with Kult--I kind of like the Mental Balance thing vs SAN, and it allows for Enlightenment both through descending into darkness (a la Steven Alzis) and through Ascension into light (which ought to be just as terrible, in its own way). Not that I want the players to become "as gods". But gaining some insight into the true nature of the universe, and gaining some limited powers thereby, could be interesting. Gibbering and squeaking with the best of them, David Farnell PS: Loved the whole "blip" thing, too. Absolutely. "You changed your bets to Satan?! Thou hast forsaken me! Thou hast all forsaken me!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:38:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Don Juneau Subject: Re: DG: real life references... On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, The Man in Black wrote: > On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 Escutcheon@aol.com revealed his morbid facination with > the grave: > > > I heard that the book on firearms wasn't very good. I do have the writer's > > digest book, Cause of Death. It is well written and gave me several ideas > > about nasty forensic details. > > The writer's guide to firearms was slammed for inaccuracy and shoddy > research in a gaming magazine, either TUO or Pyramid. The Oath, issue # 10, pg. 12, reviewed by John H. Crowe III. He opens it up like one of Jack the Ripper's old girlfriends: "It earns absolutely /no/ phobias and very probably deserves a negative number." From what the Official PaganPub Gun-Fondler sez, it's deserving of all that and less. (In my opinion as an unofficial amateur gun-fondler myself.) 'course, I've read a few of the other books (some are at my local library), and they're not all bad. Dennis Detwiler gave a big 8 phobias to CAUSE OF DEATH in TUO #8/9, p. 64. (Too bad the library doesn't have *that* one. ) One bookstore here does carry 'em new, @ around $14-16 (?) each... don't know if there'd be a discount to Writer's Digest subscribers, tho. Don ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:00:27 -0700 From: Curtis Shenton Subject: RE: DG: Drunken rant (some spoilers) - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD9328.D9BF26C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - -----Original Message----- From: David Farnell [SMTP:daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] SO! Here's my question. If that little kid in "At Your Door" can have = his mind's eye opened, what about the players? If satori or gnosis or = whatever are achievable in CoC, what is the effect, and what's the mechanic? I've been considering a limited crossover with Kult--I kind of like the = Mental Balance thing vs SAN, and it allows for Enlightenment both through descending into darkness (a la Steven Alzis) and through Ascension into light (which ought to be just as terrible, in its own way). Not that I = want the players to become "as gods". But gaining some insight into the true nature of the universe, and gaining some limited powers thereby, could = be interesting. And let's not forget about one of the villains in the Delta Green book(I = hope that's vague enough to avoid spoiling anything), he managed to gain = access to psychic powers. In fact several CoC adventures have touched on = humans having psychic/metaphysical powers. In the adventure collection = Strange Aeons it's mentioned that the Mi-go and others have been = tampering with human ability for some time. And there is a = spell/technique listed that can trigger some of these hidden powers. If = you wanted to shine a ray of (false?) hope into a Delta Green campaign = you could introduce the players to either a psychic or psychic = researcher who has stumbled onto some way to trigger the development of = these abilities. If you want the players to have a bit more of a chance = to fight the horrors around them then letting them gain access to powers = seems like a reasonable thing to do. Of course in a straight CoC = universe becoming more in tune with what's REAL is a bad thing. If you = want to drop in the development of psychic powers into your campaign. = but keep the CoC atmosphere I suggest watching Akira. In the Akira = universe psychic powers seem to lead to either your brain dripping out = your nose, turning into a giant shoggoth, or maybe becoming an avatar of = the Nyarlathotep Curtis. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD9328.D9BF26C0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih4FAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYApAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARgAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAERlbHRhIEdyZWVuIExp c3QAU01UUABkZWx0YWdyZWVuQG5vY3R1cm5lLm9yZwAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAYAAAAZGVsdGFncmVlbkBub2N0dXJuZS5vcmcAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAA EwAAACdEZWx0YSBHcmVlbiBMaXN0JwAAAgELMAEAAAAdAAAAU01UUDpERUxUQUdSRUVOQE5PQ1RV Uk5FLk9SRwAAAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAHgD2XwEAAAARAAAARGVsdGEgR3JlZW4gTGlzdAAA AAACAfdfAQAAAEYAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABEZWx0YSBHcmVlbiBMaXN0AFNN VFAAZGVsdGFncmVlbkBub2N0dXJuZS5vcmcAAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAA 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Now, the Big N may not actually be God, but could it have started that whole Christianity thing for kicks? Or, rather, twisted it to its own purposes. No, Jesus wasn't Nyarlathotep--Paul was. Jesus' true vision (which was a very conservative, orthodox Judaism, and an anti-Roman nationalism) was completely hijacked by Paul. If Jesus came back (which I doubt he ever even considered possible), he'd have no fucking idea what this whole Christianity thing is. ("My mother was a virgin? I walked on water? What, are you guys crazy?") >> Maybe I should just pour myself a big cup of you know what, but: While I like to rattle my players as much as the next guy, I can't tell you how much this thread bugs me. I generally maintain an "athiestic" CoC game, because that's more true to Lovecraft's vision. As a keeper with a Christian perspective, I try to show the horror of a world without meaning, without God. As such, plotlines involving Christianity as a tool of Nyarlathotep are just another insidious horror. Despite this, careless speculation about the views of Jesus or the early Christians could easily be disrespectful toward the most cherished beliefs of some people. Perhaps I should have spoken up when the Scientologists (or those weird Italian cultists) were getting hammered. Please carry on, gentlemen. I'm just asking that you avoid a "flip" tone when you discuss controversial subjects. Thank you, J. Frederick MacKenzie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:23:25 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: DG: Awefull believability In a recent scenario, I had a situation where the Mi-Go took out a Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign stronghold by calling up Azatoth, with the big "Eye in the Sky" form a la "The Stars Are Right". This was down in Mexico near an isolated village. The village, which had a large Catholic church and a small Pentacostal church (the Pentacostals are making considerable headway in Mexico lately) split into warring factions. After seeing the Eye, the Pentacostals declared it to be the Lord and assumed it was a sign to kill the Catholics. The Catholics, on the other hand, had already been infiltrated by several worshippers of Shub-Niggurath, and those folks were able to take over, worshipping the Dark Goat through the Madonna, and attacked the heretical Protestants. The PCs were just caught up in the middle of this as the town tore itself apart. Hey, how about receiving the gift of tongues from Nyarlathotep? Oh, I love this list! David Farnell - ---------- hmmm, I think I got more ideas out of that off hand idea than anything else this month... *sigh* back to the campaign drawing board again... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:31:46 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: Christianity and Nyarlathotep (Ranting) >Despite this, careless speculation about the views of Jesus or the early >Christians could easily be disrespectful toward the most cherished beliefs of >some people. Perhaps I should have spoken up when the Scientologists (or >those weird Italian cultists) were getting hammered. >Please carry on, gentlemen. I'm just asking that you avoid a "flip" tone when >you discuss controversial subjects. I have to admit that your message made me stop and pause. Please understand that I had absolutely no intention of offending anyone. Do keep in mind, however, that we are talking about a completely fictional universe. Nyarlothep & Co. are completely derived from the works of various pulp authors. As such, I was commenting on a what-if situation for a completely fictional situation. I am not hammering on anyone; I merely speak _as though_ they were real for the purposes of our little cybernetic kaffeklatch. Secondly, I would like to point out that we have cheerfully discussed trepannation (sp?), torture, and a wide variety of violent situations on this mailing list with nary a squeak of protest from anyone. I'd a bit worried if people suddenly become offended by an entirely speculative discussion on religion. Sincerely and Respectfully, Jay Gibber gibber, squeak squeak ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:31:42 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: RE: DG: Drunken rant (some spoilers) >vision (which was a very conservative, orthodox Judaism, and an anti-Roman >nationalism) was completely hijacked by Paul. If Jesus came back (which I >doubt he ever even considered possible), he'd have no fucking idea what this >whole Christianity thing is. ("My mother was a virgin? I walked on water? >What, are you guys crazy?") Something similar happened with Buddhism. Hinayana (sp?) Buddhism, which is not widely studied, works along the lines that "Buddha was a man, and he said this, this, and this." Mahayana (sp), which came along several hundred years later basically says that Buddha was a godlike figure, and he did this and such miracle, and when he spoke, the boddhavistas gathered around him. In this sense, people make their own gods. >And, of course, you have only to check the history books to see how useful >Christianity has been to the Mythos over the years. Ditto Islam, Judaism, >Buddhism (there's a book out recently about how Japanese Buddhists preached >support for the war), Hindu (duck and cover!), and the rest. In fact, I This doesn't surprise me too much. Japanese Buddhism has about a dozen different sects, and some of them have very nationalistic ties. Jay Gibber gibber, squeak squeak ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #36 *******************************