From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #44 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Thursday, June 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 044 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:04:41 EDT From: pkapera@juno.com Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:30:18 -0400 "R. Menzi" writes: > "The CoC rules are a little too thick for my taste; You know. Everyday, I wake up and tell myself that there are new things to hear and see, things that happen I can't believe and things that are said that I just don't understand. This is one of those things. "Thick," huh? I think, perhaps, I've rolled dice ten times in my last three sessions. And I'm the GM. :) - P. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:04:31 -0400 From: "R. Menzi" Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >>> "The CoC rules are a little too thick for my taste" I can't believe and things that are said that I just don't understand.<<< Allow me to explain. I, too, try to avoid the rolling of dice; I also don't have much tolorence for keeping track of percentages, base chances, insanity charts for duration and severity, and all the other little things that are involved in CoC. I usually just decide these things to further the story quality and pathos of the game. With that intention, I default to the simplest, easiest, playable system that has a good mix of realism and "cinemism" that I know well enough. It really doesn't matter which I go to; the system doesn't matter nearly as much as a good story does. I just happen to prefer the revised WWGS Storyteller system (printed in their new sci-fi game). I wouldn't have used their original system, but the new one works very well and I like to apply it to other games, with slight changes of course. I use the SAN trait in one form or another when I run CoC/DG because the risk of losing your mind is a part of the game I like and it is a convinient trait to measure that. Regards, <<>> - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNYazrahFxkX3nANTEQLIUgCgjjOT3PZhY7KegUPFbM1MDYhJ5RkAoN0u t+fuA3HUFzyuO3JBUuPa42NM =Z27y - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:23:42 +0200 From: Phil Ward Subject: DG: Modified Rules? OK, having finally persuaded my characters that they want to play a 'modern-day Law Enformcement' based RPG (insert manical laughter here), I find that I need to do some work on the CofC rules, so I can hand them a cut-down (ie. no sanity or magic points, etc) version of the character generation rules. Now, I'm fairly sure I remember someone mentioning an altered version of the skills, where skills were grouped (and a discussion of rifle vs shotgun skills). I've had a half-hour search of the list archives and couldn't find it, so, can anyone enlighten me? thanks in advance Phil Ward 'One-of-who's players just confided in him that he hated him for months after his longest-living D&D character died.... he's going to love DG :-).' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:54:44 -0400 From: "John C. Detwiler" Subject: Re: DG: Eyelids and balloon animals and cats That website I listed where I got the 'Dracunculus medinensis' info from has plenty of nasty color pictures of all kinds of parasites, the damage they do, their life cycles, all that. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:06:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Don Juneau Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Phil A Posehn wrote: > You should buy at least the Call of Cthulhu 5th edition. After that the > rest is dictated by your needs, imagination, and the sort of campaign you > wish to run. Chaosium's "Bermuda Triangle" sourcebook ought to work well > with a lot of Delta green vs MJ12 plots, for instance. Seconded; you can run CoC without buying any other books at all, even DG adventures. (A Hound of Tindalos appear behind the unsuspecting typist...) However, I *highly* recommend DG, and sight-unseen the expansion scheduled to appear around Gencon. (The Hound disappears.) As for the rules, PaganPub entered into an agreement with Chaosium about them - and Chaosium, not being a certain three-letter-acronym'd monolithic game-company (since devoured by a four-letter-'nym'd monolithic card-game company), said "Cool. You do the work, and they still have to buy out ruleset. Now *that's* a Conspiracy." (A different hound of Tindalos appears, slaps the typist in the back of the head, and disappears.) Don ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:39:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Don Juneau Subject: Re: DG: Eyelids and balloon animals and cats On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John C. Detwiler wrote: > That website I listed where I got the 'Dracunculus medinensis' info from > has plenty of nasty color pictures of all kinds of parasites, the damage > they do, their life cycles, all that. Aha! Time to go borrow Netscape-time again. (Wonder if Charlie still has pizza left?) Don ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:44:18 -0500 From: Cindy Burnes Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] > One point: Call of Cthulhu 5th ed. revised is coming out in a few weeks. > I'd probably wait for that. You won't need any of the other CoC books though. > What kind of revisions are going to be made? I was kinda planing on geting the CoC 5th ed. book this week.. but if the diffrences are going to be worth waiting for.. > Delta Green: Countdown (another gaming supplement) will be coming out > later this year. It will be larger than the main rulebook. There will > also be another fiction anthology. When is it going to be released? I just started reading the list archives, they mentioned Gencon as a possible release date, but that might have changed since april.. - -Adam Bolenbaugh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:55:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bowman Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] A URL for info on CoC 5.5 is http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/rpg/2376.shtml All-in-all if you have the main 5th ed. rulebook and print out the changes given on this page you'd be set. As other people have mentioned, you can certainly run DG with other rules (I use FUDGE, myself), but it's useful to have the system DG is based on in order to do the conversion. Michael Bowman bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:49:59 -0700 From: Joseph Camp Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] >> Delta Green: Countdown (another gaming supplement) will be coming out >> later this year. It will be larger than the main rulebook. There will >> also be another fiction anthology. > >When is it going to be released? I just started reading the list >archives, they mentioned Gencon as a possible release date, but that might have changed >since april.. My contact at Pagan says COUNTDOWN is due later in the year. At GenCon they're supposed to be releasing two books called MORTAL COILS and A GUIDE TO THE CTHULHU CULT; presumably you can find out more about those at their web site (http://www.tccorp.com/). They did mutter darkly about releasing a short-run booklet of DELTA GREEN material relating to the Fungi from Yuggoth, but they didn't have any firm details as of yet. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:17:35 EDT From: CroakerJr@aol.com Subject: DG: Newbie Books IMO, the CoC rule book, DG, DG:AI, and DG:CD are the only truly vital books. Others can be quite useful for ideas and expansions of the core concepts and rules, but as a CoC/DG beginner stick with the above. CoC, DG, and DG:AI alone will run you close to $70, and DG:CD will probably be about the size and cost of DG itself (closing in on $100 already), so don't strain your pocketbook more than necessary! Non-gaming books may be FAR more valuable than additional game supplements. On this list we often discuss useful books and internet articles, esp. stuff on conspiracies and the weirder sides of real-life nature and occultism for interpretation into a DG campaign. Also, look in the Bibliography of DG when you get it for some excellent background material. If you want more to read, this list is an excellent place to ask about source material based on the tone of your planned campaign. For example, is it to be mostly set in the US or UK, or international in scope? Is it to focus mostly on law enforcement, or on intelligence and spying? An FBI-based campaign will differ in many details from a CIA or MI-6 or RCMP-based campaign. Of course, I would start first of all with the primary Lovecraft stories that DG is inspired by, to put the whole thing into context: The Whisperer in Darkness, the Call of Cthulhu, the Dunwich Horror, the Shadow Out of Time, At the Mountains of Madness, the Colour Out of Space. The tone is different from a Delta Green campaign: DG operatives tend to be a lot more capable against mundane foes and dreadful rumors than Lovecraft's over-sensitive protagonists. But the sense of cosmic nihilism and the horror at the true powers at work in the universe is the core of Lovecraft's Mythos stories and the essential theme of CoC and DG. As for DG websites, it looks so far like the big ones that have appeared are listed on the DG site under private-sector allies, though there are a couple of others under development by members of the mailing list. My own site has gotten fairly extensive, and William Timmins' site is quite intriguing (I wonder if he's on this list? His Grimoire is a work of art.) As an aside and maybe a new thread: now that we've all said that hardly anything is NECESSARY beyond CoC and the DG-proper books, how about a survey of everyone's Top Ten CoC Publications as they apply to Delta Green? (DG and DG:AI will fill the top two slots, so really it's just Top Eight... but anyway...) For me: 1. DG. Duh. 2. DG:AI. Duh again. 3. Cthulhu Now. The original book with "The Killer Out of Space" and "The Evil Stars." I loved the scenarios and articles there, though they may be out of print or farmed out to other books (like the 1990s Handbook, which is basically redundant under the shadow of Delta Green). 4. The Stars Are Right. An excellent modern scenario anthology. Not all the scenarios mesh perfectly with DG, but most do, and most are outstanding. 5. At Your Door. I went through about half this campaign as a player in 1991 before some nonsense or other caused it to drop off. We never resumed it, though I've been telling the Keeper ever since that he ought to resume it. It was a blast. 6. The Curse of Cthulhu. A classic 1920s campaign which is imminently convertible to a modern DG setting. 7. Masks of Nyarlathotep. Far less convertible, but it is THE Call of Cthulhu campaign, the standard that most of us judge campaigns by, and irreplaceable as a reference for that reason. 8. The Keeper's Compendium. Some of the interpretations and extrapolations are iffy IMO, but overall this is a terrific source of ideas. 9. The Firearms Compendium. One of Pagan Publishing's early works, this might not be available any more, but as a nut for detail I love it. 10. Realm of Shadows. Also set in a different era, but this campaign contains some great information about ghouls which would be useful to modern campaigns. Shane Ivey http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6580/dg.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:53:11 -0500 From: Cindy Burnes Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] > Seconded; you can run CoC without buying any other books at all, even DG > adventures. (A Hound of Tindalos appear behind the unsuspecting typist...) > However, I *highly* recommend DG, and sight-unseen the expansion scheduled > to appear around Gencon. (The Hound disappears.) > > As for the rules, PaganPub entered into an agreement with Chaosium about > them - and Chaosium, not being a certain three-letter-acronym'd monolithic > game-company (since devoured by a four-letter-'nym'd monolithic card-game > company), said "Cool. You do the work, and they still have to buy out > ruleset. Now *that's* a Conspiracy." (A different hound of Tindalos > appears, slaps the typist in the back of the head, and disappears.) > > Don Ahhh.. well I guess that makes sense. Playing games from T$R must have conditioned me to think their way, although things (such as there policy of ethics) have been revised since the WOTC take over ([-A large and angry red dragon apears over the distracted typist, as he wonders if there is a punishment for naming two Names Which Should Not Be Named in a single sentence-]). Speaking of names, how _ARE_ you supposed to pronounce Cthulhu? I always thought it was CA-THUE-LEW myself, but then when my friend first saw it spelled he thought it was SITH-THUE-LEW, which, IMO, sounds a heck of a lot better then my version.([-said large and angry red dragon departs from typists room to see if it can find a hound of Tindalos for a game of magic-]) - -Adam-I've-ways-signed-my-name-on-other-mailing-lists-with-an-X-instead-of-Bolenbaugh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:23:23 -0400 From: Steven Kaye Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] At 10:53 PM -0500 6/17/98, Cindy Burnes wrote: >Speaking of names, how _ARE_ you supposed to pronounce Cthulhu? I always >thought it was CA-THUE-LEW myself, but then when my friend first saw it >spelled >he thought it was SITH-THUE-LEW, which, IMO, sounds a heck of a lot better >then >my version.([-said large and angry red dragon departs from typists room to see According to the Master, in a letter to Duane Rimel: "The actual sound-as nearly as human organs could imitate it or human letters record it-may be taken as something like Khlul-hloo, with the first syllable pronounced very gutturally and very thickly. The u is about like that in full; and the first syllable is not unlike klul in sound, since the h represents the guttural thickness. The second syllable is not very well rendered-the l being unrepresented." Steven - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Kaye box_nine@ix.NOSPAM.netcom.com "Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you." -- Satchell Paige ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:02:59 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: DG: RE: Modified Rules? - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Phil Ward 宛先 : deltagreen@nocturne.org 日時 : 1998年6月17日 22:44 件名 : DG: Modified Rules? Phil Ward (no relation to The Beaver) wrote: >OK, having finally persuaded my characters that they want to play >a 'modern-day Law Enformcement' based RPG (insert manical laughter >here), I find that I need to do some work on the CofC rules, so I >can hand them a cut-down (ie. no sanity or magic points, etc) >version of the character generation rules. > >Now, I'm fairly sure I remember someone mentioning an altered >version of the skills, where skills were grouped (and a discussion >of rifle vs shotgun skills). I've had a half-hour search of the list >archives and couldn't find it, so, can anyone enlighten me? That was Ringworld, which is probably out of print. (Too bad--highly detailed and excellent art, very nice writing, but I could never get my players very interested in the setting.) But maybe you can recreate the skill system if you can't find the game. Based on the novels by Larry Niven, it used the Basic Role-Playing system, modified to have "cascade" skills. If I remember right, it grouped similar skills, such as "Firearms," "Hand-to-Hand," "Starship Operation." You could buy a skill level for the whole group up to your INT. For example, if you had INT 15, you could buy "Firearms" up to 15%. After that, you had to buy the different weapons separately. Thus, if you wanted a Rifle skill of 50%, you bought Firearms up to 15%, then paid 35 more points on Rifle. That left you with 15% on all the other weapons in the category. Same thing applies to the other categories, of course. Some things wouldn't have categories. Other Language couldn't be a category, for example--you can't just get a base 15% (or whatever your INT is) in ALL languages (the old Linguistics skill notwithstanding). But you could justify, say, a Germanic Languages group (which would include, what, German, Yiddish, maybe Danish--you might get half your INT in English from that, but English has become too Frenchified). Another way to do it is by the old skill groups in older editions of the CoC Rulebook. This had skill groups based on characteristics. For cascading groups, you could create a DEX group (Hide, Sneak, Rifle, etc) and say that characters can buy up to their DEX in the group as a whole before buying skills individually. Thus, a character with a 12 DEX could put 12 points in the DEX Group and have everything at 12 minimum, then put further points on individual skills. There would be other groups for INT, APP (social skills, like Fast Talk), STR (certain physical skills, like Jump), CON, POW, EDU, maybe even SIZ. Some skills, like languages, wouldn't fit into any group (as above), and those skills which already have a base chance that's higher than the character's applicable Characteristic should, I think, be unaffected. As far as the Rifle/Shotgun thing goes, I've shot both, and they are a BIT different, but not all that much. The principals are the same, and there's about as much difference in aim point between firing a typical rifle and a typical shotgun as between firing, say, a very heavy-caliber rifle and a very light-caliber rifle. We don't require different skills for different-caliber rifles, so why require it for rifles and shotguns? Now, if you're talking about the difference between shooting at birds and shooting at a deer, well, those are pretty different skills, but you can shoot at a deer with a shotgun (at close range anyway). I just don't see any reason to make them separate skills. You law-enforcement types and hunters and such out there--what do you think? Be seeing you (through a Leopold scope), David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:17:57 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: DG: RE: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Cindy Burnes 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年6月17日 7:27 件名 : DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] Not long ago, the Right Hon. Adam Bolenbraugh queried: >#6: what's the CoC rule system like? is it heavy on stats, or is it >skill/difficulty based? Or a mesh of both mayhaps? Notwithstanding my recent long-ass post about skills, CoC can be about as rule-intensive as you like. It's quite easy to modify, toss out, or add rules. As far as I'm concerned, rules are just there to add a little realism and playability, but most of that should come from you and your players' own role-playing. Over the past few years, I've begun to use the rules less and less. But totally free-form won't cut it for me--there has to be some of the random life-or-death roll of the dice thing. It's just so much fun to see people actually PRAYING to dice. (David rolls a 98 on his Computer-Use skill and accidentally jams the keyboard through his head.) "AAAAAAAAAAA!" Davidldgoaehrghg@g;ajnad;hsd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:24:56 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Steven Kaye 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年6月18日 13:38 件名 : Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] >At 10:53 PM -0500 6/17/98, Cindy Burnes wrote: > >>Speaking of names, how _ARE_ you supposed to pronounce Cthulhu? Stephen Kaye responded: >According to the Master, in a letter to Duane Rimel: > >"The actual sound-as nearly as human organs could imitate it or human >letters record it-may be taken as something like Khlul-hloo... Yeah, but I and everyone I know pronounce it "ku-THOOL-u" or "ku-THOOL-hu." (My Japanese players call him "ka-SUU-ru.") But don't worry; when you call Him, He will answer.;)> Speaking of names, let's call this poor fellow by his right name. This guy is Adam Bolenbaugh, not Cindy Burnes. Obviously, Cindy Burnes is a code name--very clever with the gender switch there, Adam. Is Cindy any relation to Montgomery, by the way? "Smithers, release the flying monkeys." Be seeing you, David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:46:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Duran Goodyear Subject: Re: DG: Modified Rules? Just concerning alternate rules... I personaly (while havn't yet run a DG game) am going to use the Sillhouete (sp?) system from Dream Pod-9. I find it fast enoughh, with just the right mix of complexity to make it a good system for the kinda combat I like. By making up a Sanity system to go with it, you can keep your players in the dark untill you hand them a new character shhet with the sanity boxes... just my two cents. __________________________________________ Duran Goodyear dug96@hampshire.edu IM: Dyson RS ICQ: 397119 http://hamp.hampshire.edu/~dug96/ -a work in progress... On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Phil Ward wrote: > OK, having finally persuaded my characters that they want to play > a 'modern-day Law Enformcement' based RPG (insert manical laughter > here), I find that I need to do some work on the CofC rules, so I > can hand them a cut-down (ie. no sanity or magic points, etc) > version of the character generation rules. > > Now, I'm fairly sure I remember someone mentioning an altered > version of the skills, where skills were grouped (and a discussion > of rifle vs shotgun skills). I've had a half-hour search of the list > archives and couldn't find it, so, can anyone enlighten me? > > > thanks in advance > Phil Ward > > 'One-of-who's players just confided in him that he hated him > for months after his longest-living D&D character died.... > he's going to love DG :-).' > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:19:18 -0400 (EDT) From: gmgm@netmcr.com (G.M.) Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] >At 10:53 PM -0500 6/17/98, Cindy Burnes wrote: > >>Speaking of names, how _ARE_ you supposed to pronounce Cthulhu? I always >>thought it was CA-THUE-LEW myself, but then when my friend first saw it >>spelled >>he thought it was SITH-THUE-LEW, which, IMO, sounds a heck of a lot better >>then >>my version. I always imagined tying a few squid to my face and then trying to say it while sneazing. =] GAry m, minor epot - ------------------------------ "Decadence is it's own reward" DNRC Member since 1995 AOL Instant Message ID& AOL email address: gmgm1970 ICQ ID#: 8391493 ICQ nick: minor epot ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:12:30 EDT From: pkapera@juno.com Subject: Re: DG: Newbie Books On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:17:35 EDT CroakerJr@aol.com writes: >As an aside and maybe a new thread: now that we've all said that >hardly >anything is NECESSARY beyond CoC and the DG-proper books, how about a >survey of everyone's Top Ten CoC Publications as they apply to Delta >Green? >6. The Curse of Cthulhu. A classic 1920s campaign which is >imminently >convertible to a modern DG setting. Don't bother. Chaosium just released "Day of the Beast," a revised reprinting of the Fungi From Yuggoth campaign included in "Curse." The new material and GM suggestions are excellent (50 new pp., including 5 new adventures!). I wrote a review on it that might appear in Shadis #50, due out at GenCon, if you're interested. The book itself is already on the stands. >9. The Firearms Compendium. One of Pagan Publishing's early works, >this might not be available any more, but as a nut for detail I love >it. Unfortunately, now out of print. >10. Realm of Shadows. Also set in a different era, but this campaign >contains some great information about ghouls which would be useful to >modern campaigns. Agreed. I am running this now as a DG campaign. Awesome. Cheers, - P. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:12:30 EDT From: pkapera@juno.com Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:44:18 -0500 Cindy Burnes writes: >What kind of revisions are going to be made? I was kinda planing on >geting the >CoC 5th ed. book this week.. but if the diffrences are going to be >worth >waiting >for.. I got a look at an advance copy recently. It's still not bound, so things are bound to change, but it looked pretty complete, so I'll tell you what I know. It's basically the best stuff from the fourth and fifth editions put together (with a really cool new cover), and with expanded material in several key sections (like the HPL, Sanity, chronology, monster and spell - - especially the spell - sections). The tables have been redone and the char. sheets have been condensed (not changed, just set up to take up less room in the book). I really like the monster and spell sections - they're choice. Everything else stayed pretty much the same. Remember, though, that it tops out at close to three hundred pages (it's BIG). Oh, yeah. They reprinted the funnies from 4th ed. again, too. If I were you, I'd borrow a friend's 5th ed. until the new one comes out. It'll be worth the asking price (unless it's, like, $50). Hope that helps. - P. "This is the end. It sucks. I hope you're happy now." - Me. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:07:00 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Joseph Ellis Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] Hi, Heres a question that Alphonse may be able to help with. Given the various discussions about Pagan releasing some of their new wares at GenCon, will they be doing the same for EuroGenCon, or "GenCon UK" as its now officially known? Might be nice for your British fans if you could, especially if Countdown is ready by then. SJE "Sometimes I think that war is God's way of teaching us Geography." -Stephen Fry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:32:42 +0200 From: Phil Ward Subject: DG: Re: Modified Rules? David Farnell wrote: > Phil Ward (no relation to The Beaver) wrote: Erm.... I'm from the UK, I've never seen .."Leave it to Beaver" (was it?) help :-) > That was Ringworld, which is probably out of print. (Too bad--highly > detailed and excellent art, very nice writing, but I could never get my > players very interested in the setting.) But maybe you can recreate the > skill system if you can't find the game. > > Based on the novels by Larry Niven, it used the Basic Role-Playing system, > modified to have "cascade" skills. If I remember right, it grouped similar > skills, such as "Firearms," "Hand-to-Hand," "Starship Operation." You could > buy a skill level for the whole group up to your INT. For example, if you > had INT 15, you could buy "Firearms" up to 15%. After that, you had to buy > the different weapons separately. Thus, if you wanted a Rifle skill of 50%, > you bought Firearms up to 15%, then paid 35 more points on Rifle. That left > you with 15% on all the other weapons in the category. Ah, now that sounds a little better, I might be able to find a copy in one of the second hand bookshops... but if that fails me, You've given me enough of an idea to put a few things together. Nice One :-) > Another way to do it is by the old skill groups in older editions of the CoC > Rulebook. Which edition was that? I might be able to lay my hands on a copy of the 2nd/3rd edition (?) If that's the right one. > As far as the Rifle/Shotgun thing goes, I've shot both, and they are a BIT > different, but not all that much. Yeah, that's what I figured, I had planned on combining those two anyway, I merely mentioned it because I seem to remember a question regarding the difference between the two causing the conversation in the first place. > You law-enforcement types and hunters and such out there--what do you think? Do we have a few of those? That would be excellent, my campaign is going to focus primarily on a large, metropolitan PD, with detectives as the primary characters and the playesr having a few spare grunt/professor style characters to act as ghoul-fodder, sources of information, I now need a few shotgun scenario's (tm), prefarrably nothing involving mr Squick (a creation that has caused much laughter and digust in my workplace). Preferably some non-mythos based: * Serving warrants on XXXX * simple Homicide or NYPD Blue fodder * Problems in the COP's own apartment * Armed Hostage situation, with one PC on the inside. * etc, etc. I figure I'll intersperse regular police work with mythos stuff, mostly insane occultists rather than much in the way of actual mythos critters, for the time being at least. By the end of 4 days of gaming at GenCon, they ought to be ready to see something _really_ unpleasant. > Be seeing you (through a Leopold scope), Oooh, nice. What's it mounted on? Phil Ward ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:42:40 GMT0BST From: Robert Thomas Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] Stephen Joseph Ellis wrote: >Hi, >Heres a question that Alphonse may be able to help with. Given the >various discussions about Pagan releasing some of their new wares at >GenCon, will they be doing the same for EuroGenCon, or "GenCon UK" >as its now officially known? Might be nice for your British fans if >you could, especially if Countdown is ready by then. Anyone have any more information on "GenConUK" as this is the first time I've heard of it? thanks rob J.R.E.Thomas. Science Library PC Room Advisor ext 6135 / 5128. MScII City and Regional Planning Student. ThomasR@cardiff.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:13:52 +0200 From: Phil Ward Subject: Re: DG: Newbie questions Ahoy [keepers only] Robert Thomas wrote: > > Anyone have any more information on "GenConUK" as this is the first > time I've heard of it? > > thanks > > rob > > J.R.E.Thomas. > Science Library PC Room Advisor ext 6135 / 5128. > MScII City and Regional Planning Student. > ThomasR@cardiff.ac.uk Hey, nice to see someone on from my old University :-0 You've missed out, there _IS_ a Eruo GenCon this year, and the details should be on this URL: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/rpgauk/ I'll be going along with a few of my mates from Cardiff, so if you're interested and stuck for transport or a group to travel with (and the car's small enough), give me an EMail. BTW, I don't think there are any planned DG events (obligatory DG content), but I plan on intro'ing my playesr to the game while I'm there :-) Phil Ward Orchid Telematics, based in Companies House up on Crown way. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:05:47 -0400 From: "Elliot A. Rushing" Subject: DG: Re: Modified Rules and Cops. David Farnell and Phil Ward (Howdy, Guys!) engaged in a brief correspondence about modified rules and cops. Phil asked if there were any cops on the list. I'm a plainclothes deputy sheriff and attorney here in North Carolina, and while I'm trained as an officer and detective, my primary role is to draft agency policy and advise the sheriff on legal matters and random crises. I've worked several homicides assisting our assigned detectives and witnessed several autopsies. I've writtena dn served high-risk search warrants and conducted survellience on drug suspects. I teach several of our assigned state-required training (academy) classes on various aspects of the law (search and seizure, constitutional law, criminal law), and helped to revise our state's curriculum during the current revision. I also teach several community college courses on constitutional and correctional law. My agency would be considered small to middle-sized, as we have about 150 officers, 40 assigned to the jail. Our detectives (only 7!) carry an open caseload of about 80-110 cases at any given time. Our jurisdiction is the second-fastest growing County in North Carolina, with a 25%+ growth rate and a current population of about 107,000 (we border Charlotte, NC). We average 5-10 homicides a year, though the number is rising. I didn't write the preceding paragraphs to impress anyone, but to explain what I do (and don't do) for a living. I grew up with roleplaying, and like DG for its verisimilitude (which I've noted before). I 'll be happy to offer any relevant assistance I can, with the disclaimer that the law and police procedures vary (sometimes widely, sometimes not) in the US from state to state, so what's de rigeur in NC may not apply in CA or NY. I'll also note that in game terms sometimes *realism* isn't as fun as believeable escapism. ;) I wouldn't sweat the small details. For flavor, the american shows NYPD Blue, Law and Order, and Homicide are usually dramatically satisfying and largely (but not always) on the money regarding procedures. Your mileage with all other programs (including COPS, which often inadvertently shows mistakes) will vary -- their hearts are in the right place, but often they just plain get it wrong. - ---- David mentioned combining shotguns and rifles into one skill. You can certainly do this for ease of use and to create more competent characters with fewer points, but I'd like to offer some practitioner's notes. I routinely qualify in the mid-90s with my duty sidearm (a S&W 9mm), despite the fact that I wear a suit and normally ride a desk. I've fired an H&K suppressed MP-5 (what our tac team uses) accurately and without difficulty. However, I have difficulty qualifying with a shotgun (although I manage), for various reasons that may be informative. First, I'm about 6'1", 195 lbs, so it's not a size issue. Our issue shotguns are 12 gauge pump-action shotguns (which represent the *vast majority* of police shotguns in the US -- folks are moving away from the autos for liability/cost reasons, although feds and special ops groups may still use them). As David and Phil correctly pointed out, there is little difference between rifles and shotguns when you get to the pointing and firing end, although the recoil from a twelve gauge is *significant*, and if you're not wearing proper padding, *will* probably cause bruises to your shoulder (and perhaps your face (in the cheek area) if the weapon isn't properly seated) after 2-3 shots, and certainly will after firing through reload. While large black powder and hunting rifles may have similar recoil, police carbines chambered for pistol rounds, submachine guns, and smaller caliber rifles do *not*. If you're firing for any length of time, this makes a difference, as one of the problems people face is unconsciously compensating for recoil (i.e., inadvertently dragging the barrel down as they pull the trigger). Smaller gauge shotguns (20 gauge, .410) are much easier to fire -- 12 gauges are a challenge for smaller officers, simply from recoil -- especially with slug rounds (very popular in games, unpopular for cops at qualification time!). Also, with this much recoil, "seating" the weapon to your shoulder properly before aiming and firing becomes very important -- see my note about bruising above -- you *can* stun yourself with a shotgun. The trigger action for shotguns is also often different -- shotgun triggers have a much shorter "reach" in my experience (meaning they fire with less "pull") than rifle and submachine gun triggers, although that probably varies from make to make. Finally, the mechanics of a pump-action shotgun are markedly different from most rifles. There's no bolt-action or magazine, there's a feeder tube for shells. We learn a "tactical load" procedure that's a bit difficult (but fast), designed to compensate for the different mechanical design of the action -- however, you can fumble it. The placement of the safety is often counter-intuitive (i.e., not located where you'd expect on a rifle) and varies from make to make. When all's said and done, there's a good argument that rifles and shotguns are different creatures, thus justifying different skills for each. As an aside, I've often thought that perhaps there should be an *aiming* skill and a separate "mechanics" skill for various firearms. Aiming and pulling a trigger is relatively easy -- it's properly manipulating the safeties, slides, buttons, and reloads within your given time frame that can get you. My shotgun qualifying problems have never had to do with the accuracy of the shot, which is pretty good, but with properly manipulating the controls and seating the weapon and firing it *within the time allowed* (i.e., I exceed my time limit). Since, due to my assignment, I'm not assigned a duty shotgun and only fire one for qualification, I feel that if I carried the shotgun and practiced with it (i.e., developed my skill), I would perform much better with the weapon under time constraints. At a range with unlimited time, I perform very well. It strikes me that all tactical firearm use is "under time constraints," particularly when facing Chthulhuoid horrors. Still, game economics might demand combining the skills, so it's really your call. I'll also note that the 12 gauge shotgun has a legendary reputation as a fight-stopper, and I can remember three local homicides offhand where a single shotgun shot (even birdshot) ended a gunfight lethally and decidedly. Never take a pistol to a shotgun fight. ;) Hope this helps. Let me know if I can assist with anything further. Elliot. - ---- Elliot Rushing Deputy Sheriff / Sheriff's Counsel Union County Sheriff's Office, Monroe, NC lex@trellis.net DG Newbie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:12:12 +0200 From: Phil Ward Subject: Re: DG: Re: Modified Rules and Cops. Elliot A. Rushing wrote: > > David Farnell and Phil Ward (Howdy, Guys!) engaged in a brief correspondence > about modified rules and cops. Phil asked if there were any cops on the > list. > Hi, please to meet you :-), thanks for a _really_ thorough reply. You wouldn't be able to post a blank homicide/violent crime/robbery report/form/whatever to the list (or to me directly if preferred), would you? I've been looking for a good way to make my players do more work in the campaign, especially jounraling their adventures (in D&D), but filing reports after each adventure would be excellent, especially whe IAD start lookin at them askance after the (possibly unlawful) shooting of culists summoning something really nasty... It always surprises me to see cops using MP-5SD's, after all why supress your gun when you're doing and a dynamic entry and loudly identifying themselves as police, why carry a suppressor? Surely it just makes you look bad to the press and anti-gunners? Hmm... perhaps I should take this to Private mail, or the tactics list, but i'm trying to get a _little_ amount of realism in the game. 12 Gauge fight stopper? More light fight not-starter from some of the stories I've heard about the sheer intimidation value of pumping around and delivering your best Clint Eastwood line :-) Thanks again, I'm going to be doing a good bit of work on my campaign intro this coming week, so I may have to ask you a few more questions. :-) Phil Ward ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #44 *******************************