From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #54 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Friday, June 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 054 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:00:02 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: Re: DG: Toxic Ammo On the subject of toxic ammo, my favorite lethal substance is Aniline. It's a simple amine of benzine and is found in most print shops. One drop will cause massive hallucinations in an average adult, two will kill 50%. It is even absorbed through the skin! In regard to the teflon in glasers, I recall some years ago an interesting case where several employees of a circuit board manufacturer were hospitalized with a high fever and flu-like symptoms. The cause turned out to be that they all smoked non-filter cigarettes. The teflon dust particles that fell on the end of their cigarettes (non-filter smokers turn them around before lighting) when burned were enough to make them seriously ill! Does the heat generated by the firing of a bullet break down the teflon enough to have a toxic effect on the person shot? Phil _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:28:11 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: RE: Tetrodotoxin etc. >>weakness, generalised paralysis and death. And people eat this stuff >willingly! I always knew the Japanese were an odd bunch! > >Hey, it tastes good! (and no, it tastes nothing like chicken) Actually, I've >eaten it a few times (rich students who take me out to eat now and then), >and I've never noticed any numbness, tingling, etc. I think that if you DO >notice that, it's "Sayonara, sucker." The number of deaths is quite small, It tastes ok, but it's certainly not something I'd want to risk my life over. The Japanese I've talked to about it have always acted like it was more of a macho thing than it was about flavor. As I understand it, you can get the numbness and tingling (a.k.a. peripheral neuropathy, I think) from trace doses of toxin in the flesh. >certainly less than the number of deaths from Burger-meister Hamburgers >(infected with some nasty bacillus) every year. I don't really think people Heh, all too true. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:28:09 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: Re: Silly Rulesmongering >No surprise there at all. >When I was on the horse racing circut some years ago a horse broke its >leg during a race. A policeman who had seen too many movies swaggered up >and tried to put it down with his 9mm. several shots glanced off of the >skull of the poor beast who was by now screaming and blowing foam...its >eyes wild. Finally someone showed up with a 44mag. and dispatched the >poor beast. Idiot. It's really cruel to do that with anything less than a 12 gauge. I really wouldn't even want to take a chance with a 44 mag, although it's almost a certain kill... just to much of a chance of a glancing shot. Jay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:28:07 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: Infection! (Mi-Go Biology 101) >Maybe the mutant will become addicted to Mi-Go tissue? I go, you go, we all scream for Mi-Go! Jay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:28:12 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: DG Weapons > I'm sure all this talk about Glasers and Black Talons is interesting >and everything, but I betcha a couple bucks that Cthulhu will eat you >either way. By the way, one of my more interesting players characters >carries, in addition to his Glocks and Skorpian, an enchanted tai chi >sword ( and is an expert in tai chi to boot. ) Unfortunately, he's only effective against really slow opponents. :) >PS- anyone ever thought about enchanted guns? ( a bless firearm spell as >a result of advanced weapons research, courtesy of Mi-Go tech given to >MJ-12) Nah, sounds a bit too close to D&D. "You open the treasure chest and find... a +5 Glock of Wounding!" Jay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:25:07 -1000 From: Til Eulenspiegel Subject: DG: Oops. My bad. Re: my earlier post Perhaps I should learn to read all my mail before replying to any of it. D'oh! finger for Geek Code and PGP public key fingerprint Sometimes the delete key is your best friend. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:33:30 -0400 From: Ngo Vinh-Hoi Subject: DG: Black Talons & other bullets At 01:36 AM 6/23/98 -0400, you wrote: >>I had a player want to use Black Talon rounds recently. Are they still made >>(police only, I presume)? And can they really penetrate Kevlar vests, then >>act like a hollow-point round, only nastier? I heard a lot of rumors, but >>little in the way of hard facts. >> > >Black Talons are currently on the Federal No-No list for ammunition, though >the manufacturer took it from general release a bit before that happened. >Essentially, they are Teflon hollow-point rounds, designed to penetrate >kevlar-weave body armor (which is what the Teflon is for). The Kevlar Vests >with the steel instert will still stop a Black Talon, though it's gonna >leave one heck of a bruise in the morning, or sooner. Their sheer nastiness >comes from their ability to tear through Teflon like Mr Squick at a Talking >Heads concert. Basic police-issue body armor is no good against it, and, as >I recall, it was made for several makes of weapon, but most notably for .9 >mm postols/smgs. You could probably still find Black Talons at one of your >more unsavory gun shops, or on the street (though I'm not sure your basic DG >Fed would be able to sleaze them up so easily owing to the lack of >scuzziness necesary to score good stuff from the street). > >That's what I know..let me know if I can be of more help! > >-Jim You're probably confusing it with the KTW round or the more recent Rhino round (which was never released and to my knowledge, never even demonstrated publicly--another case of pure manufacturer hype). The KTW was teflon-coated and theoretically armor-piercing, but it was not a hollowpoint. As for teflon-coated bullets somehow being better at penetrating body armor, that is misinformation--what you need to punch through modern body armor is a very hard, dense penetrator, such as a tungsten-alloy core bullet; these bullets tend to be very hard on the typical gun barrel and are thus sometimes coated with teflon to reduce barrel wear. Also, Winchester slightly redesigned the Black Talon bullet and simply renamed it the Ranger SXT round which is readily available to civilians as well as cops. Just another case of what's in a name, I guess. In any event, the Black Talon was never a "magic bullet/death ray", just a modern, well-designed hollowpoint that could be counted on to expand reliably without often exiting the human body. The un-PC name and the nasty-looking serrated jacket doomed it from the start, however. Anyway, Jim, this wasn't a flame--I just wanted to address some specific points that appeared in your post. Hoi hoi@pipeline.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:16:20 +0200 From: Andrew Sturman Subject: DG: re: Bio-agents Hi All Thomas Woodall kindly offered: >My brother can answer this. I'll get him to send a post to the list with the >effects. While we're at it, is there any other Chemical or Biological agent >anyone on the list wants to know about? If so, my brother is a specialist in >this field. Send in any questions you have between now and Saturday night and >I'll collect them over the weekend and have him send a post or posts on Monday >in response. I've always been particularly curious about some of the non-lethal agents reported in the US stockpile, specifically BZ, a hallucinogenic gas I believe. Any info on form, effects and duration would be most useful. DG could either use it as a weapon, or as an excuse to explain away some of the weirder witnessed events. I'd also be interested in other non-lethal agents, chemical or biological. Please post away. And while I'm on the subject of non-lethal, did anyone catch that magazine article a few months back, in US News I think, on other non-lethal weaponry. It went from stick or slick riot foams, laser dazzlers and air tasers to emp pulse bombs, RF/microwave, infrasound/sonic and weird shockwave vortex weapons.All excellent super-tech devices for DG and the opposition, to go with their PMWI scanners, ground-penetrating radar, portable SQUID's and other goodies. I've put simulation stats to several of them if anyone's interested. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:05:03 +1000 From: Rob Shankly Subject: DG: Tetrodotoxin, was Rulesmongering version 7.3a Ahem! *Tetrodatoxin or *tetrodtoxin, according to "Human Physiology", Shmidt & Thews (Springer-Verlag, 1983) I used the stuff extensively to do measurements of sodium channel density on bits of animal, back when I studied pharmacology. In Australia the main reason to encounter this poison is through being stung by a rather small, sweet looking octopus with tabby blue rings. It likes to live in rockpools. It's so sweet and small you don't always feel it sting. Recommended first aid is mouth-to-mouth until an ambulance arrives, since the poison stops the victim breathing. Tetrodotoxin interferes with cell membranes, particularly the interface between nerves and muscle: the heart is "self starting" and does not need nerve impulses to beat, so it keeps going, but the lungs need the nervous system to tell them to work. Since they work all the time they are the first area affected- the patient gets drowsy, lies down, turns blue... Daniel M Harms wrote: (Cut) > I believe you mean tetrodoxin here. It's a paralytic poison found > in pufferfish of different varieties. In Japan, people eat fugu, a dish > made from pufferfish, because they enjoy the numbing of the skin that goes > along with it, and every year people die because a chef, despite his > training, makes a bad batch. Not just from bad batches- people have become ill (and possibly died) as a result of cross contamination from knives used to prepare the fish. > > What makes tetrodoxin even more interesting for CoC investigators > is the fact that it doesn't always kill the victim. In many cases, it > induces a coma that is virtually indistinguishable from death. In Haiti, > the substance is used in Voudou rites of zombi creation. According to > Wade Davis, author of _The Serpent and the Rainbow_, the priest throws the > powder across the victim's path in a small enough dose to make its effects > temporary. After the person "dies", the doctor digs him up and uses other > drugs to put him to work. There's been some dispute as to whether this > would administer the drug effectively, however. > > Some of the above may be inaccurate, as I'm going from memory > here, but tetrodoxin can be a fun tool for Keepers. > > Yrs., > > Daniel I have always wondered about the "zombie" drugs, since tetrodatoxin would be very hard to use if you wanted a living victim- I think that most "patients" would o/d. I have also read of zombie creation using mescaline and similar "magic mushrooms", and ergotised grass seeds (ie LSD). For a modern, high tech knockout with very low chances of a fatality, try rohipnol + alchohol (aka "Rollies"). Tasteless, colourless, fast as hell and quite easy to aquire. Young women in nightclubs be warned. For Keepers, the advantage of using something like this is that players may well have heard of the drug; introducing grimey, banal evil highlights the pus-covered horrors when _they_ arrive. - -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you frantic. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:49:43 +1000 From: Rob Shankly Subject: Re: DG: Glastonbury Festival UK Only / Glaser Safety Slugs (Cut my own stuff to get at the meat) > K > E > E > P > E > R > S > > E > Y > E > S > > O > N > L > Y > > THIS MEANS YOU! > > If for the sake of argument certain people in Brazil were to gain > access to the remains of the aformentioned SS officer and revive it, > would the anthrax spores which are notoriously long survivers be > present and how would this affect the raised individual? (Cut) I think it's certain that he would be resurrected with any and all diseases and infestations present- he might be quite immune (or at least resistant- see below) but any diseases should certainly be capable of affecting others. Look at it this way: his remains could not be seperated from the infecting agents, so they would get the resurrection treatment along with his body. It doesn't really matter if there are dormant spores, because dead biohazards would be revived too. And these biohazards might be altered, toughened, in all sorts of foul ways. Anyone see a role for the USMRID here? Alternatively, what if the disease were still fatal to the revived person? | | | A group of investigators investigate a mystery medical patient discovered in a major city, apparantly dying of an unknown "supergerm" varient of smallpox. He's in a secure facility, being studied intently. Since smallpox is supposedly eradicated there is great pressure to interrogate him- did he wander into any mysterious facilities recently? But interrogation will be difficult, because the disease has affected his mind: although he's only about 40, he thinks Truman is President! The backstory is that this fellow died of smallpox back in the fifties and has been revived (for reasons unknown). Sadly the disease came back too, much stronger. The man escaped whoever revived him, and wandered into the city, brushing against passers-by, using a public restroom to wash his face and hair, helped a little girl onto a schoolbus (oooohh the pathos). Finally he collapsed and was brought to hospital, the good Samaritan who assisted him is already showing symptoms. - -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you frantic. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:46:10 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: DG: police forms John C. Detwiler wrote: > > For those of you who want that form I "advertised" earlier you can get it > from my pathetic website at > It's available in Word 97 format or lo-cal RTF. I can send you a PDF format version of the file if you'd like... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:07:06 -0400 From: Viktor Haag Subject: DG: Re: Martial Arts - ----- original message ------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:36:42 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: DG: Re: [snip] Actually, in martial arts, flesh wound is probably the biggest category. Watch a boxing match or one of those "Ultimate" combat competitions. You can soak up quite a few shots if they aren't exacty on target. A miss of just a few inches in martial arts can make a potentially incapacitating shot a mild abrasion. >Most combat fighters are trained to incapacitate (or kill) opponents as >quickly as possible with as many strikes as required (i.e. hit him until he >capitulates, or is 'out' -- what 'out' is usually 'can't get up', which may >mean unconscious, in shock, dead, etc). This is entirely true. The problem is that martial artists are also trained on ways of negating such attacks. Fighting someone with any martial arts training -- or even just a decent background in athletics -- is worlds away from fighting someone without. In role playing, however, I would prefer not to make such fine distinctions. Jay - ------------------------------ Yup -- you're right. In my post I was thinking of trained fighter attacking someone with little or no training, or with the advantage of surprise. I assumed that this was the typical situation in DG/CoC conflicts -- i.e. either the agents are taking apart cultists who have Recite Ritual/99, but Brawl/15, or they're smart enough to hide in the bushes before letting loose with the Shuto of Death. Still, I should have been more explicit. Good call. Agent Eduard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:13:40 -0400 From: Viktor Haag Subject: DG: Re: Silly Ammo-Mongering - ------ Original Message ------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:04:48 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: RE: Silly Ammo-Mongering > >2. 'Nother zinger -- .22 and .25 cal. guns are cheap, cheap, cheap. Desert >Eagles are expensive (and *heavy*, you gun-toting-for-50-hours-a-week >agents). Not a problem for your average DG agent, but, hey, cultists gotta >buy candles, baby. Not to mention the purple robe. Heh. When I was a kid, you could go to Walmart and buy what was called the "Bucket o' Bullets." About 5lbs. of 22LR loose in a plastic bucket. Cost about $10. Great for plinking. Jay - ------------------------------ Yikes! You know, as a Canadian, living in a rather peaceful country with an entirely different attitude on guns, I'm personally rather upset that posts like this disturb me far more than "Mr Squick" posts. (Ok, maybe not *far* more, but you know what I mean.) One thing reading this list has brought home to me, is that you folks living south of the border really *are* a completely different breed of animal... Agent Eduard. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:42:22 -0400 From: Viktor Haag Subject: DG: Tetrodotoxin etc. - ------ Original Message ------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:38:53 -0400 From: graemep@immagene.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: DG: Tetrodotoxin etc. [snip] As I recall, the chef needs to be licensed to prepare such a dish. The toxin is found in the liver, skin and ovaries of the puffer fish (family Tetraodontoidea) and in the California newt (Taricha torosa). Clinical signs of poisoning from tetrodotoxin include tingling of the lips and tongue, motor incoordination, numbness of the skin, salivation, muscle weakness, generalised paralysis and death. And people eat this stuff willingly! I always knew the Japanese were an odd bunch! > What makes tetrodoxin even more interesting for CoC investigators >is the fact that it doesn't always kill the victim. In many cases, it >induces a coma that is virtually indistinguishable from death. In Haiti, >the substance is used in Voudou rites of zombi creation. According to >Wade Davis, author of _The Serpent and the Rainbow_, the priest throws the >powder across the victim's path in a small enough dose to make its effects >temporary. After the person "dies", the doctor digs him up and uses other >drugs to put him to work. There's been some dispute as to whether this >would administer the drug effectively, however. Yes, I've wondered about this too. The zombie thing is a little bit tenous (personal opinion) but good for a plot device... or as a scientific rationale when filling in the report forms. Cheers Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu - ------------------------------ Ah Yes! Wade Davis! The David Suzuki of Ethno-Botany! It's been awhile since I read "Serpent and the Rainbow", or the more, ahem, academic papers on the subject of zombification; however, I seem to remember that the toxin used in zombification is *not* in fact tetrodotoxin, but a related toxin derived from local amphibians (frogs, I thought). I'll try and remember to double-check tonight. At any rate, Wade's come under fire, I believe, from critics claiming that a lot of the more outrageous "events" depicted in S&R were dramaticised. I believe that some anthros have remarked that Wade's a little susceptible to the 'winking native' phenonmenon (Look! Here comes the guy with the cigarettes again! Let's tell him some more tales our own grandmothers wouldn't believe, and afterwards we can all have a good laugh about it over our beers...) Still, if I'm mistaken (my memory ain't what it used to be), and someone else knows better, feel free to rebutt (as always)! And Graeme, I'm surprised at you being surprised that the Japanese (and others) ingest Tetrodotoxin for fun! After all, how many people the world over ingest Nicotine for fun? I was just thinking that a little pure nicotine dabbed on yer air-dart would do the job very nicely thank-you. Wouldn't even have to pierce too deeply into the skin either, would it? Isn't nicotine one of those lovely toxins that's absorbable through the skin? Agent Eduard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:49:18 -0400 From: Viktor Haag Subject: DG: Re: Zombis and Voudoun - ------ Original Message --- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:49:46 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: DG: Re: Silly Rulesmongering [snip] I believe that the reason that the Zombie dust was effective when administered in this fashion was because one of the other ingredients was ground nettles or a similar irritant and abrasive. This allowed the toxin to reach the bloodstream through nearly microscopic cuts in the skin when the barefoot victim walked over the powder. Alternatively, the powder would be blown into the victim's face, entering the mucous membranes of the eyes and sinuses. The poor victim would experience total paralysis of the voluntary muscles along with sufficiently depressed heartbeat and respiration to ensure that he would be pronounced dead without electronic monitoring devices. The victim would be totally aware of the entire process, including his own burial! When the drug wore off the Tonton Macoutes would dig him up and feed him a variety of Datura Stramonium(sp?), a potent Hallucinogenic, show him a sealed jar into which they would tell him they had placed his soul, and put him to work as a slave! The Haitian secret police make Nyarlathotep seem like a nice guy by comparison. - ------------------------------ Yep, the means for application of the poison are accurately relayed here (at least as far as Davis' S&R relates). And for those of you wondering about the "soul in a jar" thing, the Haitian religion involves a rather complex belief about transmigration of souls. Telling someone, under the influence of HEAVY dope, that you've caught their soul in a bottle, or the like, in Haiti is probably roughly equivalent to doping up a good baptist, painting the walls orange and red, painting yourself red, and then giving him a good rant of fire and brimstone for an hour or so... For those interested, Mayfair's CHILL game, and Steve Jackson's GURPS both have produced supplements that give a "gamer's eye view" of Voudoun, although I'm not sure how detailed it is. Agent Eduard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:34:06 -0000 From: "Crossingham, Adam" Subject: Re: DG: Glaser Safety Slugs [and more rules] {and Long} Sorry, but here's more stuff on guns. I've never even shot one, but I did some searching on the Web, did some reading, and came to some conclusions. Having to fend off a rabid Gun-nut player for several years has prepared me though. Apologies in advance for bad gun terminology and poor descriptions of the mechanics of Physics. Observation 1: Glasers aren't 99% fatal - but they have '1 shot stop' potential. I offer two quotes in my defence. 1. You can survive, just: 'This particular patient was shot with a glaser safety slug. It is designed to disperse on hitting soft tissue. The patient has many pellets in his neck and brain. He ended up being paralysed and ventilator dependent.' Cited from http://www.stamhealth.org/surgery/head.html . This page isn't as gory as it sounds - it's a CAT scan, not a photo, and shows the track of the pellets in the skull. 2. Glasers don't kill instantly: 'The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."' Cited from http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm This article defines a one shot stop 'as one in which the subject dropped, gave up, or did not run more than 10 feet.' For game purposes a 'one shot stop' is one where the target is either killed instantly, or suffers enough damage to fall unconscious, or suffers a major wound (more than half HPs) and fails a CON roll. An average human has 11 - 12 HPs, so a 'one shot stop' must do at least 7 points of damage, the minimum increasing of course with larger, fitter people. Therefore to simulate Glasers must have a high minimum damage, which the 1990s Handbook gives. Observation 2: Glasers are 'safety slugs' not manstoppers. I offer in my defence the Glaser homepage at http://www.safetyslug.com . Glaser stress high velocity, shorter travel times which mean their rounds are more accurate - that is, you hit what you aim at because wind, branches and other stuff don't get in the way. And once that you hit, you won't hit anything else because the bullet stops in the target (it doesn't over-penetrate). Observation 3: The increased damage is a by-product of the Glaser design not the desired result. Glasers rounds appear to be lighter than other rounds of the same calibre, presumably to achieve the desired higher velocities for accuracy. However this would reduce the effectiveness of the bullet if it was a normal unfragmented bullet, and would lead to over-penetration. By replacing the bullet with shot the designers reduced the chance of over -penetration, and added back some damage lost by reducing the weight of the bullet. Dhl9@aol.com wrote <<< Someone asked about the Glaser in a .44. The .44 is a notoriously poor manstopper because of overpenetration. I wonder if the Glaser is any different. >>> The Glaser homepage recommends that 10mm and .44 NOT be used if over-penetration is an issue. Now if you don't like the fast and dirty Glaser rules in the 1990s Handbook, I have a set of alternative rules suggestions which might be to your liking. They are based on the observations above, and stress knockout damage over normal damage to simulate a 'one shot stop'. 1. GSSs do maximum rolled damage plus rolled damage (i.e. 9mm Para GSS does 10 + 1d10 damage). The round still impales as normal (roll damage twice I believe) 2. Apply damage against target's HPs as knockout damage, in which the target resists damage against his HP. If he fails he falls unconscious; if he succeeds he stays conscious. In either result the target takes a 1/3 of the total damage as fatal damage. It is possible that the normal damage inflicted could constitute a major wound so a CON roll to stay conscious would ensure. In our 9mm Para example, the average damage at the end of the process would be 5 points of normal damage. However the target would have had to successfully resisted 15 -16 points of knockout damage first, which with 11 - 12 HPs would give an average person a 30% chance. If the target was really unlucky, the knockout damage could be 31, and the normal damage 10 points. Things get worse however, if the shooter impales.... Perhaps reliant on too many saving throws, but any thoughts anyone? Here's one - Glasers are good against cultists, not against the cultists' patrons. - -- Adam Crossingham home: tigger@the-wolery.demon.co.uk work: adam.crossingham.octavian@mktmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:21:42 -0400 From: graemep@immagene.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: Tetrodotoxin etc. Viktor wrote: >Ah Yes! Wade Davis! > >At any rate, Wade's come under fire, I believe, from critics claiming that a >lot of the more outrageous "events" depicted in S&R were dramaticised. I >believe that some anthros have remarked that Wade's a little susceptible to >the 'winking native' phenonmenon (Look! Here comes the guy with the >cigarettes again! Let's tell him some more tales our own grandmothers >wouldn't believe, and afterwards we can all have a good laugh about it over >our beers...) It's no so much the credibility of his sources that worries me as the actual pharmacology of the process. The type of accuracy as far as dose required to induce the temporary paralysis and coma-like symptoms would be difficult for a scientifically trained toxicologist to work out. Couple this with the proposed route of administration (through the skin) and I would be surprised that it would ever work as described (let alone do so even semi-reliably!). >And Graeme, I'm surprised at you being surprised that the Japanese (and >others) ingest Tetrodotoxin for fun! After all, how many people the world >over ingest Nicotine for fun? Fair comment. But this applies not just to nicotine, but alcohol and numerous other, er... "recreational chemicals" as well. However note that nicotine (whilst toxic in pure form) isn't quite as deadly as tetrodotoxin (IIRC) in the doses likely to be absorbed by typical consumers: eating badly prepared puffer fish will kill you quickly, but you would have to smoke a hell of a lot of cigarettes for nictotine to kill you in the short term. The long term damage from smoking (as I understand it) is due to the carcinogenic compounds in smoke rather than chronic nicotine toxicity (i.e you get lung cancer, not nicotine poisoning). >I was just thinking that a little pure nicotine dabbed on yer air-dart would >do the job very nicely thank-you. Wouldn't even have to pierce too deeply >into the skin either, would it? Isn't nicotine one of those lovely toxins >that's absorbable through the skin? Death by nicotine patch? Wasn't that in a Ben Elton novel a couple of years back? Nice way to carry out a hit on someone who smokes a lot! Forensics could pick it up though - they just might not believe it. Later Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:59:40 -0400 From: "R. Menzi" Subject: DG: ODing on Nicotine - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >>> However note that nicotine (whilst toxic in pure form) isn't quite as deadly as tetrodotoxin . . . . you would have to smoke a hell of a lot of cigarettes for nictotine to kill you in the short term. The long term damage from smoking (as I understand it) is due to the carcinogenic compounds in smoke rather than chronic nicotine toxicity (i.e you get lung cancer, not nicotine poisoning). <<< Actually, nicotine overdose can occur. I believe that the constriction of capilaries inhibits or blocks circulation, potentially resulting in dizziness, nausia, fainting spells, coma (defined as the inability to be roused; lots of things cause coma), and/or heart failure/attack. >>> Death by nicotine patch? <<< This was a point of news interest when the nicotine patches first came out; people wouldn't stop smoking while they were getting their transdermal fix and a few heavy smokers ended up dying of a nicotine O.D. Other long term side effects of the nicotine in cigarettes include deafness (from extended lack of proper circulation to the working bits of the ears) and other chronic circulatory problems. But hey, it makes you look cool, and looking cool is what matters, right? Well, old age isn't what your usual agent seems to worry about overmuch. Looking cool, on the other hand, plays a nice part in keeping a decent self-image while your betraying the laws and system you swore to uphold, even if it is for the greater good. Burbon helps too. Regards, <<< R. Menzi >>> - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNZPvm6hFxkX3nANTEQI1AwCg1vjsx/ypgNCuhBfNr7+koPAyisQAniye 9lrCTAH9BAXgwdUwqAWbQmY0 =l3XA - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:56:22 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: DG: Re: Bio-agents On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:16:20 +0200 Andrew Sturman writes: > >I've always been particularly curious about some of the non-lethal >agents >reported in the US >stockpile, specifically BZ, a hallucinogenic gas I believe. All that I can really recall about BZ is that it was developed in the late '60-early '70s for domestic use against anti-war demonstrators but public outcry prohibited its use. There was also a tank-like device developed about the same time and with the same proposed purpose that featured a high powered ultra-sonic generator as its means of incapacitation. I believe this one was eventually sold to some foreign governments. Phil _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:47:07 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: Re: DG: ODing on Nicotine I remember a mystery novel written during the 30s where a man was murdered by means of a cork ball in which several needles smeared with concentrated nicotine had been imbedded. The concentrate had been prepared by boiling a pound or so of tobacco and then straining the liquid and boiling it down to a brown goo. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:26:09 -0500 From: "Charles Baucum Jr." Subject: DG: Re: Glaser > Are you saying that Glaser rounds are banned by law for private citizens? A friend of mine keeps a clip of 9mm Glasers for his Barreta 92. He bought them recently, so they must not be illegal to sell or own. Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur cobaucum@meta3.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:38:59 -0500 From: "Charles Baucum Jr." Subject: Re: DG: ODing on Nicotine - ---------- > From: Phil A Posehn > To: deltagreen@nocturne.org > Subject: Re: DG: ODing on Nicotine > Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 3:47 PM > > I remember a mystery novel written during the 30s where a man was > murdered by means of a cork ball in which several needles smeared with > concentrated nicotine had been imbedded. The concentrate had been > prepared by boiling a pound or so of tobacco and then straining the > liquid and boiling it down to a brown goo. > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] In G gordon Liddy's autobiography, _Will_, he notes that the only weapon carried on the Watergate break-in was a Walther air pistol. They used it to shoot out the streetlight over the door that they had prepped for the entry. They carried air gun darts dipped in nicotine extract, then available in drugstores over the counter. It was supposed to induce a heart attack in the target should they be surprised. Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur cobaucum@meta3.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:06:22 -0500 From: Nightstar Subject: DG: RE: Silly Ammo-Mongering I once knew a guy in a motercycle club who altered his ammo. He would take .44 Magnum solid lead bullets and drill a hole down the center (he knew how far to go without punching through). He would then fill the hole with mercury and lightly touch the tip with a torch to close it over with the lead. I never saw these rounds used on anything, but he swore by their ability to "splatter a dickhead like a shitheap" (his words). Any thoughts on these rounds from our ammo experts? - ----------------------------------------------------------- Finally, a light at the end of the tunnel......heh heh heh. Nightstar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:56:19 -1000 From: Til Eulenspiegel Subject: Re: DG: re: Bio-agents At 01:16 PM 26 06 98 +0200, you wrote: [snip] > >I've always been particularly curious about some of the non-lethal agents >reported in the US >stockpile, specifically BZ, a hallucinogenic gas I believe. Any info on >form, effects and duration >would be most useful. DG could either use it as a weapon, or as an excuse to >explain away some of the weirder witnessed events. I'd also be interested in >other non-lethal agents, chemical >or biological. Please post away. I've no information on BZ handy, but do know two sources you might check. First is the Merck Index. This chemical reference work is available at most college libraries, and could be found at better public libraries. I looked up BZ gas therein six or seven years ago, but don't remember much of what I read. Second is the out-of-print RPG "The Morrow Project." One of its weapons was a U.S. military hand grenade with pressurized BZ gas inside. As I remember it, the last paragraph mentioned you could unscrew the grenade's fuse and spray the contents in someone's face. > >And while I'm on the subject of non-lethal, did anyone catch that magazine >article a few months back, in US News I think, on other non-lethal weaponry. >It went from stick or slick riot foams, laser dazzlers and air tasers to emp >pulse bombs, RF/microwave, infrasound/sonic and weird shockwave vortex >weapons.All excellent super-tech devices for DG and the opposition, to go >with their PMWI scanners, ground-penetrating radar, portable SQUID's and >other goodies. I've put simulation stats to several of them if anyone's >interested. > As a matter of fact, that very article entered my files. Another good source for general black project information is Aviation Week magazine. For instance, a 1993 article claimed U.S. Air Force, U.S. Army, and Central Intelligence Agency all approched the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms during the siege at Waco for permission to field-test non-lethal weapons! The article went on to describe what each organization wanted to test. (Described devices were a subset of those listed in USN&WR.) Seven or eight months ago Aviation Week published a brief piece about black weaponry projects in Persian Gulf War. It was sketchy, but supposedly field commanders were approached by "Men in Black" claiming to be from US intelligence and/or research agencies. Dialogue between these MiBs and Coalition leaders went like this: MiB: General, I have a device that will win this battle for you. General: Great! What is it? MiB: I can't tell you. General: Okay, what's it do? MiB: I can't tell you. General: Okay...how do we deploy it? What kind of range, area of effect, military use and so on? How do I support it? MiB: I can't tell you. General: What can you tell me? MiB: I've already said all I can. Aviation Week claimed this happened to several Coalition field commanders. Two parting thoughts: first, I'd like to see your NLW write-ups. Please email them to me, or if others are interested, to the list. Second, has anyone else here heard rumors of Coalition chemical weapon attacks in the Gulf War? >Andrew > > finger for Geek Code and PGP public key fingerprint Sometimes the delete key is your best friend. ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #54 *******************************