From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #61 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Friday, July 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 061 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:14:15 EDT From: MgkellyMP5@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Yanks With Guns In a message dated 98-07-02 12:08:22 EDT, you write: > Isnt it funny? Are we the only ones who remembers that there was > violence long before there were firearms? People that advocate banning guns remind me of an Archie Bunker line I heard several years ago. "Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was all pushed outta windows?" . If they ban guns, does that means that we can use swords? Mgkelly ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:32:27 GMT0BST From: Robert Thomas Subject: DG: Media Diinformation Hello All, Just been looking through the CNN page about "Operation Tailwind" that was discussed a few weeks ago on the list. Anyone considered the possibility that all of the recent Media stories that have been published only to be later discredited could be an operation by MJ12 to prevent investigation of certain incidents which have / are / will occur. Interesting how in the age of competetion between media groups for news the "first to publish" factor means that the art of investigative journalism has become weakened for the sake of the scoop. Anyway I'm off to read the papers for the truth about UFO's ;-) outahere rob J.R.E.Thomas. Science Library PC Room Advisor ext 6135 / 5128. MScII City and Regional Planning Student. ThomasR@cardiff.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:04:28 +0400 From: yanasikt@superonline.com (Osman Zeki Yanasik) Subject: DG: DG : Acquiring Resources Greetings ! How heavy armament a DG member FBI agent can access and use on DG operations without catching attention ? Will it be different for the other agencies, for example ATF ? Or in general how can a DG agent abuse his/her organization to get resources for DG ? Thanks for any answers, Tolga ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:01:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Jonathan P Keim Subject: DG: Ammo in DG rulebook I don't have my Dg book handy right now, but there is no listing for damage for the Webley .454 (IIRC) round, for the Webley revolver in the handguns section I believe. Anyone have the damage for that bad boy? I also noticed HP were not included in weapon entries and I was curious if anyone new why. (In all honesty it was something I never worried about. I've never been big on having players shoot guns out of peoples hands, etc. and a timely jam is quite effective in teaching players to take good care of weapons and not make a habit of turning the Mossberg into a Louisville Slugger.) Thanks, Munch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:01:54 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Joseph Ellis Subject: Re: DG: Guns & Ammo Threads Hi, Sorry Chris, but I have to disagree with some of your comments. Essentially it comes down to what people feel is an appropriate topic for this list. The narrowest definition restricts it to discussing only DG products, rules and associated adventures, which lets face it is pretty thin. Instead I think it should be about topics that are of interest to DG Keepers and players. If they show an interest or want to ask or write about something that has arisen from their 'experience' of DG, then its a valid topic of discussion. If its just one persons pet fetish, then the rest of us will ignore him (or her.) With regard to the specific discussion of guns and ammo, I see several DG applications for this thread. Firstly, for the perfectionist, completist Keeper, who wants to know what his cultists can get away with when they are pulled over by the players, he will now know if that gun the cultist has is legal, or if it can be concealed or carried. This could have a major impact on the game, and specifically the characters. (e.g. A group of Washington agents pounce on a suspected cultist in New Jersey. Much to their surprise, the cultist pulls out a handgun, and fires back. Then to add insult to injury, the cultist phones the cops who arrest the agents, (but they get to keep their firearms, even in custody) and he walks away scot free.) Secondly, I would remind you that a great many contributers to this list are not American, yet all the published adventure to date are in America. For ease they are likely to set their campaigns in America. Therfore, it is of vital interest for them to portray American mindsets, ideology and weapon possession as realistically as possible. These 'off-topic' conversations are therefore of great use within our playing of DG. Finally, I'll admit, that there is a problem of getting bogged down in such personal, strongly held opinions such as the sanctity of your 2nd Amendment. However, this is a part of American culture and can be included in an American set DG. Afterall, even by the narrow definition of 'on-topic' that I discussed earlier, this thread becomes valid when someone tells us that in their campaign the NRA is a pawn of Cthulu, and what arguments and tactics would DG agents use to counter their insidious views. Naturally, as Listkeeper you have final authority over what goes out, but I would ask that you poll the list to see if a majority agrees with you, before threads are declared 'off-topic'. Steve. "Sometimes I think that war is God's way of teaching us Geography." -Stephen Fry On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Chris Womack wrote: > While I've enjoyed some of the anecdotes that these threads have generated > (and even have one of my own I *could* share), we're wandering pretty far > off-topic. Statting up weapons for game use is one thing (although even > that can get old fairly quickly); rambling on interminably about who can > carry what guns where is another. > > As ListKeeper, I'm asking that any further posts dealing with guns and/or > ammo be taken off-list, unless (as noted above) they have explicit bearing > on DG/CoC. > Chris Womack > oaktree@nocturne.org > Keeper of the List > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 11:07:48 EDT From: theherald@juno.com (Michael Layne) Subject: DG: Re: Silly Ammo-Mongering On Fri, 03 Jul 1998 00:19:50 EDT theherald@juno.com (Michael Layne) writes: > > The first mention of rocket pistols was in "Armageddon 2319" >(Yes, the original "Buck Rogers"!) The American troops in the novel >carried rocket small-arms with some fairly powerful explosive headed >ammo -- giving each squad the firepower of a battery of light >artillery! > Oops! I meant "Armageddon 2419 AD", of course! (Can't have Antony Rogers waking up 100 years too early...) Author was Philip Francis Nowlan. "Rocket guns are very simple contrivances, essentially self-propelled blowguns... with rockets for darts. They are simple light tubes of small diameter, within which a rocket shell is placed and trigger activated. The entire cartridge leaves the tube under its own power, at a very easy initial velocity, just enough to increase accuracy of aim, so the tube does not need to be of heavy construction. The shell increases in velocity as it goes. It may explode on contact, or on time, or a combination of the two." -- Nowlan Michael theherald@juno.com "Sergeant! Chap with wings. Five rounds rapid." -- Brigadier Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart, UNIT (Dr. Who: The Daemons) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:17:40 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: Dear M.I.B. >[1] Clingy. Those songs that get stuck in your head and give you >the urge to experiment with self-trepannation. I have a friend who starts humming "Mob Rules" from the Heavy Metal soundtrack. He says it scares all the other songs out of his head. Hmm. Sounds like he might have gone ahead with the self-trepannation, doesn't it? Jay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:17:45 EDT From: CroakerJr@aol.com Subject: DG: Dial "M" (cell) for Murder R. Menzi commented: << Their is no longer any glory in killing an opponent, as their was in the days of knights and samuri (sp?). >> The glory that such warriors took in killing opponents was entirely a function of society, not the method of the slaughter. In fact there are a lot of people nowadays who DO consider it "glorious" to get up a gun and blow someone away, a lot of gangsters of every stripe and a few cops and soldiers, too. Luckily, most cops and soldiers can discern between a shooting to defend themselves or another (a so-called "good" shoot), and cold-blooded murder. (So can some thugs and gangsters, of course, but I give them much less slack!) <> As another posted a few days ago, most shootings occur at something on the order of under a dozen feet in range. That's close enough that there is no ignoring the blood and guts and brains and screams. The notion that shooting someone with a .38 Special is more convenient than knifing them is misleading: a shooter still has to look straight at the victim and make the decision to pull that trigger; he or she still has to be deafened by the noise and see the effect. You have it right, of course, that guns are far more _efficient_ at killing than anything else most of us have access to; the murderous kids in our unfortunate schools could not have done so much harm if they had only had knives and BB rifles, and so they probably would not have bothered. But firearms, however efficient at their purpose, do not remove the decision- making process from the act of murder, or the consciousness of its consequences. Only steadfast denial or delusions can do that. About now, Mr. Womack is probably thinking, "All right, does this involve Delta Green, or what?" ;-) Well, yes. Most Delta Green agents and many of the NPCs they encounter are professional law enforcement/military/intelligence officers who have involvement in firearms and are likely to be involved in a shooting during the campaign. These are things to which very few of us actual players and Keepers have exposure (the police officers and criminal justice students and hobbyists notwithstanding). I think a sober discussion of the psychological impact of such violence can lead to much more insightful and interesting roleplaying than the (admittedly interesting to me, but not exactly on-theme) discussions of the pros and cons of firearm ownership. Then again, this is just a game, so I may be the only one so morbidly interested in this business... ;-) Shane Ivey http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6580/dg.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:31:40 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: D&D&Deliverance > << > What does 'How very deliverance' mean? > >> > > It means... ummm... there were these city guys who went into the >fictionalized rural south, and... Aw, just see the movie. > > I have to say, I've never even heard rumors in the real South about the kinds >of nastiness shown in the film "Deliverance." But as a portrayal of decay and >evil, it was downright quasi-Lovecraftian. Who knows what else those two >hunters would have done with poor old Ned Beatty if Burt Reynolds hadn't shown >up. "Did ye ever hear tell of a Shoggoth?" Or rather "Come on, boy, squeal like a shantak!" Jay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:36:33 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: Dear M.I.B. >> The memvers of DG "V" cadre have an unusual problem. Whenever an >> incident of cosmic horror occurs, they all spontaneously sing out the guitar >> riff from Metallica's "Thing that should not be" >> >> What should I do. > >The way the secret masters see it, you have two options: > >1) Hose them all in embarassingly ridiculous ways straight out of >Paranoia RPG until they scream out loud that they just can't take it >anymore. (I suggest an Elder Sign Forehead Tattoo for starters) > >2) Learn the lyrics and have a sing along, Karaoke style. METALLICA KICKS >ASS~! METALLICA ROCKS~! > Hangs head in shame. Er, I think I've already chosen option #2. Fearful - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 09:35:31 -0700 From: John Michael Alldredge Subject: Re: DG: Re: Code Book (keepers only) Various and Sundry Replies At 08:08 PM 7/2/98 +0100, you wrote: >> From: Stephen Joseph Ellis > >> I'm sorry rik, (Rick?) but I was under the impression that our >> little bit of fun was only for use on this mailing list. > >No you are write first time. Rik is the name I have been given, and I >am sorry if these rather silly and totally un-amusing names do not >come up to my level of humour, but each to his own. > >> Personally I see it as a bit of a laugh, and at worst the beginning >> of a clique. > >All the more reason to let it lie. There is nothing more off-putting >than having to cope with a clique. > >> By the way, do you mind if I query you? What does 'How very >> deliverance'mean? > >A reference to the film Deliverance. > >> From: The Man in Black > >> Severe Delusion: The Great Old Ones are my Drinking Buddies. > >> From: "David Farnell" > >> Jeez, now I've gone and offended, what, the cultists? Hey, this >> stuff ain't for the freaked out--it's to prevent folks from getting >> freaked out in the first place. I mean, we keep bandying about the >> true name of Senor Sock, and we're all going to be growing mouths in >> our palms (Mama always said it would happen if I kept playing RPGs >> by myself). > >No but how about those who aren't syntactically challenged? I will >admit that these BSNs are easier to pronounce than some of the more >jaw-aching appellations. > >> You think a bunch of big, bad agents aren't going to make up stupid >> names for the things they fear the most, just to show how tough they >> are? > >No I don't. I would assume that horrors such as these would dread a >race of quiet intelligent men who would have learnt to keep quiet >about what they have seen. There are a number of very old proverbs >such as a "fool chatters while the wise man listens." But I forgot >that Delta Green isn't CoC in the same way that MTG is not an RPG. In >CoC the idea was to use your wits and intelligence to try to stop >cosmic horror. Delta Green is over-reliant on hi-powered weaponry and >technology, and the belief that the bad agent can triumph because he >is one bad-assed mother. You have in effect turned a very fine role >playing game into a modern day D&D. > >Plus you are all missing one very vital point about names. If you >know the name, the true name of your foe, you will have a power over >him. As my mother would say think on. Jesus, can you get any more snippy/pretentious? Calling the various mythos critters by stupid nicknames is no more uncalled for/unrealistic that callin the Viet Cong "Charlie" or the KGB "the gremlins from the Kremlin". Using ridicule and dimunition is a classic way to reduce one's fear of the opposition. As for Delta Green being a modern D&D: well, everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I have to disagree. The game as designed by Pagan depicts a bunch of professional spies and fedcops using their specialized knowledge of intrigue and investigation to uncover and counteract paranormal threats. This may be a different kind of brainpower than that displayed by the average COC character (who is usually modeled on the humorless, obsessive, and bookish occultist-heroes of Mythos fiction) but it is no less valid for all of that... in short, George Smiley is not necessarily any dumber than Titus Crow.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 21:02:19 From: Davide Mana Subject: DG: Re: Code Book (keepers only) Various and Sundry Replies Greetings. It seems that Mr. Kershaw touched some sensitive nerves with his posts. Now, I hope I'm not fueling any budding flame war with the following considerations; it's just that this topic is closer to my experience than firearms.... ;-> First, Code-Names - fun (and incidentally, "Gnarly" seems to be truly international) but I'd personally avoid them, and discourage any such use by my players; there's nothing worst than planning for days a big sanity-twisting climax for your adventure, spending half an hour talking like Orson Welles to create the right mood around the table and having some smartass spoiling it all with a shrill "Hey, it's just the Fun Guys... let's party!". True, people under stress often discharge their tension by wisecracking and playing the fool (even if it's a rather trite cliche'); and a laugh once in a while is absolutely required in a game. But there's a time and a place. And a limit. Second, General Badass/Tough-Guy Attitude - once again, it's most of all a question of atmosphere: much as I like the posts from the Man In Black, I'd grill slowly and painfully any player adopting such an attitude in my games. Unless of course he had a character demanding such a characterization (or if we were playing Feng Shui). And I agree with Rik when he sees DG operatives as >quiet intelligent men who would have learnt to keep quiet >about what they have seen Perfect. The characters in "Delta Green: Alien Inteligence", by the way, seem to conform more to this type than to "the cow-boy attitude". Also, on such jobs, I prefer a man used to silence to one used to shoot his mouth needlessly. And please consider the following: a very silent, very serious, maybe slightly sinister "average guy" can project a much stronger aura of _danger_ than a wisecraking, BFG-toting hombre. John Michael Alldredge, confutating Rik, aptly observed > George Smiley is not necessarily any dumber than Titus Crow.... Perfect again, but neither acts like Mel Gibson in "Lethal Weapon 2". A limit, once again, is necessary. Third, and most important: >You have in effect turned a very fine role >playing game into a modern day D&D. Harsh ("you" who?), but deserving consideration. True, when such things happen ("Squidface's up, eh? Let's see how he likes our orbital lasers!") the blame rests firmly with the Keeper. And yet, some player seem to be unable to restrain themselves when presented with the slightest opportunity; technology can be used in a modern day setting much as magic is in a fantasy world, to wit, as a source of easily accessible "power". And the fact that we live in a technological world only makes things easier for these would-be power players - usually they choose technical types with a nebulous background as characters, and try and solve any problem by hacking computers or by invoking some piece of obscure military hardware. As Don Juneau rightly observed, >DG doesn't make many changes at all to the rules but it would be unfair to forget that the modern day setting, coupled with the conspiracy background, offers a lot more temptations for the munchkins out there than the 1920s do. So, all in all, I won't be so fast in knocking Rik's point. And that "How Very Deliverance" line _was_ good. With this I stop ranting and go back to my banjo. Take care. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 13:50:39 -0600 (CST) From: brochue@MEENA.CC.UREGINA.CA Subject: Re: DG: Guns & Ammo Threads Just to put in my two cents: I would really rather see gun stuff not directly related to DG kept off the thread. It is fairly irritating to get a batch of mail and find as many off-topic posts as on-topic ones. Furthermore, gun control, like other politically charged issues, tends to divide people and result in lots of flames, without ever resolving anything. They also tend to go on a very long time if they're not nipped in the bud. There have already been a few "baiting" posts, and while no one has so far risen to the challenge, I can't help but think it's only a matter of time. I know Chris would probably rather not have to throw his weight around, but it's better to politely but firmly lay down some ground rules now than risk having to end up deleting half a dozen off-topic threads after everyone is pissed off and half the group has left in frustration. I've seen it happen on other mailing lists, and it's not a pretty sight. There are roughly a gazillion usenet groups, chat boards and mailing lists for people who want to discuss guns, but this is the only place to talk Delta Green. - - Eric. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:13:23 -0700 From: "Bruce Baugh" Subject: Re: DG: Guns & Ammo Threads From: brochue@MEENA.CC.UREGINA.CA >There are roughly a gazillion usenet groups, chat boards and mailing lists >for people who want to discuss guns, but this is the only place to talk >Delta Green. Yes! This is exactly the point I wanted to make, speaking as one of the people who's been seriously thinking of unsubscribing until the flamefest burns itself out. There are in fact interesting hard data to come by about gun violence, but they almost never come up in exchanges like this, and I don't need to see the N millionth repetition of prejudices - even ones I happen to agree with. As a first order approximation, if it's a popularly held view (in any country), it's wrong. :) - -- Bruce Baugh brucebaugh@mindspring.com http://brucebaugh.home.mindspring.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 07:03:09 +0900 From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko Noyes) Subject: Re: DG: DG : Acquiring Resources - ---DG spoiler for newbies---- >How heavy armament a DG member FBI agent can access and use on DG >operations without catching attention ? Will it be different for the >other agencies, for example ATF ? > >Or in general how can a DG agent abuse his/her organization to get >resources for DG ? I think this is an excellent topic. The members of "V" cadre are are not yet aware that DG is, well, extremely unofficial. They still thinks it's just very top secret. They are constantly requesting resources. I grant their resources pretty much on whim. I'm assuming that DG is swiping resources from other agencies and that availability depends up whether or not they can requisition the resources without being tracked down. So sometimes DG can supply a safe house, but no rental car, or vice versa. My opinion, which is worth exactly as much as you paid for it. Jay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- On retreat: Rincewind: "Come on, let's run away." Eric: "Where to?" Rincewind: "Don't you worry about _to_. In my experience that always takes care of itself. The important word is _away_." Terry Pratchett, "Eric" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:45:34 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: Re: DG: new spells There are some relatively low powered new spells in Pagan's Golden Dawn. If you REALLY MUST go farther than this and I STRONGLY SUGGEST that these be for NPCs only... try looking through Chaosiums NEPHILIM and using your imagination to add sanity and con costs. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:09:45 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: Re: DG: Ammo in DG rulebook On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Jonathan P Keim writes: >I don't have my Dg book handy right now, but there is no listing for >damage for the Webley .454 (IIRC) round, for the Webley revolver in >the >handguns section I believe. Anyone have the damage for that bad boy? > The Webley .454 automatic revolver was made around 1900.(hence out of place in a '90s book) I believe it is in one of the Chaosium books but I can't remember which one _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:03:47 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: Re: DG: Media Diinformation On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:32:27 GMT0BST Robert Thomas writes: >Interesting how in the age of competetion between media groups for >news the "first to publish" factor means that the art of >investigative journalism has become weakened for the sake of the >scoop. > >Anyway I'm off to read the papers for the truth about UFO's ;-) Read "Dark Alliance" by Gary Webb, the reporter for the San Jose Mercury who wrote the story on the CIA and the introduction of crack cocaine into South Central LA. He had his facts straight. His publisher simply caved in to pressure. Phil _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:22:25 -0700 From: paposehn@juno.com (Phil A Posehn) Subject: DG: Re: Code Book (keepers only) Various and Sundry Replies On Fri, 03 Jul 1998 21:02:19 Davide Mana writes: >Greetings. > >True, people under stress often discharge their tension by >wisecracking and >playing the fool (even if it's a rather trite cliche'); and a laugh >once in >a while is absolutely required in a game. But there's a time and a >place. >And a limit. > >So, all in all, I won't be so fast in knocking Rik's point. Two points of exception, at least in my experiance; As the characters manage to survive for a year or two of campaigning, (with accompanying sanity drain) inappropriate humor as a defense mechanism is good in character role playing. This is why coroners, EMTs Firemen and cops tell each other sick jokes at accident scenes. It works both ways. Not too long ago Nyarlathotep decided to save my character's life. (He hated to lose his favorite cat toy) In doing so he turned a white reporter into a Black Saxophone player!! Phil _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:09:21 -0400 From: Patrick Murphy Subject: Re: DG: Ammo in DG rulebook >On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Jonathan P Keim >writes: >>I don't have my Dg book handy right now, but there is no listing for >>damage for the Webley .454 (IIRC) round, for the Webley revolver in >>the >>handguns section I believe. Anyone have the damage for that bad boy? >> I don't really think the extra .004 makes that much difference. Looking at John Crowe's "U.S. Handguns for Call of Cthulhu and Gaslight" in the Summer 1991 TUO, I see the Smith & Wesson Mark II Hand Ejector Second Model Revolver, which is listed as a .455, does the same 1D10+2 that .45s and .44s do. Ciao, Patrick (trying his best to steer the gun topic toward stats :^P) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:45:09 EDT From: Imandos@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Guns & Ammo Threads I am one of the individuals responsible for the guns discussion on this list. I ceratinly did not want to bait anyone into an argument or to make anyone feel that I don't respect their beliefs. However the gun information has been helpful to my DG simulation. It is good to share information about guns and equipment that can be applied to our DG agents. The same is true of the laws covering gun control worldwide as well as other laws that will apply to characters. I will {in the future} make sure my postings are as neutral as possible. I do not want to offend anyone. People on both sides of any issue should not have a problem if we discuss things relating to DG while avoiding attacks on other people's beliefs. We should not have to ban areas of discussions as long as we keep other people's opinions in mind. Sorry if my views on gun control hurt anyones feeling. That was not the idea. I wanted to find out the opinions of others on the list about gun control as it applies to DG. Let's keep it friendly. Thomas Woodall Imandos@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:32:09 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: Webley and Guns & Ammo Posts - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Patrick Murphy 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年7月4日 8:28 件名 : Re: DG: Ammo in DG rulebook Patrick wrote: >I don't really think the extra .004 makes that much difference. Looking >at John Crowe's "U.S. Handguns for Call of Cthulhu and Gaslight" in the >Summer 1991 TUO, I see the Smith & Wesson Mark II Hand Ejector Second >Model Revolver, which is listed as a .455, does the same 1D10+2 that .45s >and .44s do. I distinctly remember that it was a .455 Webley (got a chance to examine one in the gun shop, once--funky!). Could be wrong, though, but I think the .454 is a mix-up with the .454 Casul single-action revolver. One of the heaviest and most accurate handguns one can carry. But it's only 5 shots, and can only be reloaded one round at a time (like most single-actions). Appeared in the original _Alien Nation_ movie, BTW. As regards the interminable gun-threads: I must admit that I'd like to see some restraint. As long as it's info that can be useful to keepers, fine. For example, I had a player a couple years back who insisted on carrying the aforementioned Casul (sp?). He was quoting some pretty awesome stats for it, so I checked it out at the library and the local gun shop, discovered he was pretty right on about the damage potential, but that he hadn't realized that its cylinder doesn't swing out, forcing a very slow reloading time. This lessened its effectiveness greatly, so he ended up choosing another sidearm. But I was a Freshman Comp teacher for 4 years, and I've read the arguments about gun control (and abortion and legalizing marijuana) enough to last a few lifetimes. They're the same tired arguments over and over, and they never seem to go anywhere. And they do spark flame-wars. Before you post, please consider whether what you're posting might be better explained on the NRA or HCI (Handgun Control International) websites (or their various associates and counterparts around the world). So my vote is: Info about weird guns & ammo, police procedures, the psychological impact of killing someone (thanks, Shane), and SOME local tales about attitudes (to help our non-American brethren understand the setting better)--OK. One-upmanship anecdotes, back-and-forth arguments about The Best Ammo in the World, and pointless 2nd-Amendment stuff that hasn't been settled in the last 30 years and ain't gonna get settled here (though it might trash the list in the process of trying)--Well, please think before you post, OK? As Eric said, >>>There are roughly a gazillion usenet groups, chat boards and mailing lists for people who want to discuss guns, but this is the only place to talk Delta Green.<<< Peace, man, David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:53:53 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: DG: RE: Re: Code Book (sigh) - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Davide Mana 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年7月4日 4:20 件名 : DG: Re: Code Book (keepers only) Various and Sundry Replies Davide Mana wrote: >First, Code-Names - fun (and incidentally, "Gnarly" seems to be truly >international) but I'd personally avoid them, and discourage any such use >by my players; there's nothing worst than planning for days a big >sanity-twisting climax for your adventure, spending half an hour talking >like Orson Welles to create the right mood around the table and having some >smartass spoiling it all with a shrill "Hey, it's just the Fun Guys... >let's party!". >True, people under stress often discharge their tension by wisecracking and >playing the fool (even if it's a rather trite cliche'); and a laugh once in >a while is absolutely required in a game. But there's a time and a place. >And a limit. True, and thanks for a well-reasoned critique. No sensitive nerves here--I just prefer criticism to make sense. Actually, the Code Book post was just for funsies, to use on the list--and I actually had it in the back of my mind to distract people away from all the gun posts (which I felt a little responsible for, having started it all with that question about Black Talons). Didn't work--too bad. I never meant it to be used in games--just a laugh. (I admit, however, that I've used Senor Sock for Y'golonac in a recent game, but that's because they needed a name for that ugly sucker after encountering him, and they didn't know what it was, thank goodness. You're right; it'll probably come back to haunt me.) > >Second, General Badass/Tough-Guy Attitude ...- >And I agree with Rik when he sees DG operatives as >>quiet intelligent men who would have learnt to keep quiet >>about what they have seen ...>Also, on such jobs, I prefer a man used to silence to one used to shoot his >mouth needlessly. True, but not everybody wants to play that kind of character. I've run and played in games in all eras, and we've made all kinds of characters--intellectuals, playboys, hookers, gangsters, doctors, private-investigators, cops, beggers. I see absolutely no need to play only the type of character Lovecraft was into. By "big, bad agent", I didn't mean Duke Nukem and His Howling Commandos (those characters die quickly in my games--not because they offend me, but because they just naturally get themselves killed). I meant someone like the characters from "My Father's Son." But that's beside the point. When did I ever say that DG characters chatter about what they saw? Check the posts--I never said that. They ARE going to talk about it among themselves, however, at least some of them. They kind of need to, both for sharing info and just to talk through their horrific experiences. I was really just kidding about DG agents actually using such silly names, but it's true that people, especially military and intel-ops people, have always given belittling names to their enemies. It's just a way of dealing with it. >Third, and most important: >>You have in effect turned a very fine role >>playing game into a modern day D&D. > >Harsh ("you" who?), but deserving consideration. Well, actually not much deserving. I found it a very petty remark, and one with no real logic behind it. To quote Rik, >But I forgot > that Delta Green isn't CoC in the same way that MTG is not an RPG. Is that logic? Magic:The Gathering isn't a RPG--well, that goes without saying. DG is not a RPG either--but it is a supplement for CoC. Do those match up at all? I think the term "false analogy" applies pretty well here. And yeah, I would kind of like to know who "you" is. The list? Pagan Publishing? The folks who post humorous things? Me, personally? Doesn't matter. I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone could think that ANY of them could debase CoC. CoC is a game, and the vast majority of players play it without any reference to DG. Even if some misguided group fielded a team of gruntly weaponsmeisters and went on a killing spree with orbital lasers, who are they hurting other than themselves? Does anyone honestly believe that such a group is an "Offense to the Game?" (Cue thunderclap.) I personally don't like such games and I won't play in them, but why the hell should I be offended by them? >So, all in all, I won't be so fast in knocking Rik's point. I'd just like to see the point defined clearly and have some reasoning behind it. >And that "How Very Deliverance" line _was_ good. Actually, I thought so, too. And please note, it was not I who poked fun at the spelling of Rik's name. I always figure people spell their own names right and they've got a right to spell them any way they like. (Although that Gerry/Jerry Mckelvey guy worries me;)--what IS the story behind that, Jerry?) However, regarding Rik's comments, I think John Michael Alldredge put it best when he wrote, >Jesus, can you get any more snippy/pretentious? Succinct, and on target. And please note that this is not a flame, merely an honest, restrained response to some very provoking comments. I've got nothing against Rik having his opinions, nor do I have anything against Rik himself. I don't want him to leave the list, and I don't want him the shut up. As for not responding to Rik directly--well, I might have lost my temper if I'd done that. Better it be one-person-removed for now, for the sake of the list. Sincerely, David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:07:08 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: new spells - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Gerry Mckelvey 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年7月3日 13:28 件名 : Re: DG: new spells Jerry wrote, >well, you could always argue 4th dimensional topographics won't allow it, >or allow it and tell them it seems to be working fine...then let them find >out they've really been tapping the life force of Azatoth or Cthauaga (that >other mythos fire god, don't have me book in front of me...) See?! There is a need for silly code names! (I'm just KIDDING!!) I've never had any players who used magic enough to seriously want to create their own spells. They always used it in extremis. (Excepting whenever anybody new to the game learns a spell, they always seem to try it out by themselves just to see if it works. Then everyone wonders where the character disappeared off to, not knowing he'd summoned a Byakhee and failed to bind it.) But I think I could allow spell creation. I wouldn't worry about fireball spells, because I've always made the rituals for spells in my games long, vile, and costly. Much moreso than in the rules. (That's how I generally account for the SAN loss--it's the acts commited during the ritual, mainly.) For example, someone wants to cast the fireball spell he worked up. I say, "OK, first you need to build a fire. Then, you have to thrust your left hand into the fire while chanting the Appeal to Cthugha (I might actually have this written up, and force him to role-play it). If you chant it for 1 round, your fireball will be 1d6 damage, 2 rounds, 2d6, etc. Of course, you're taking 1d3 damage to your hand each round, although it'll eventually become a briquette and stop taking damage." Actually, it'd be much worse than that, but this is just off the top of my head. The added advantage is that it makes wizards much scarier. To cast a wide variety of spells, they need to carve elaborate sigils into themselves, slice off their own noses (and other, more sensitive anatomy), starve themselves for weeks, etc., in addition to sacrificing delightfully writhing young virgins (oh, ahem...maybe I'm revealing too much there). Actually, I've always thought "Shrivelling" was pretty much a "fireball" spell--not literally, but in its ease of use and relatively poor backlash effects. I now force characters to jab a bronze knife through their palms in order to cast it. Cheers, David Farnell ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #61 *******************************