From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #73 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Saturday, July 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 073 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:19:37 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: DG: RE: Camp Concentration - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Davide Mana 宛先 : deltagreen@nocturne.org 日時 : 1998年7月17日 23:31 件名 : DG: Camp Concentration Davide Mana wrote: >And this also awakened an older and dimmer memory. >The late lamented Philip K. Dick once related a funny story about Disch's >novel. >According to the notoriously paranoid (but brilliant!) Dick, agents from an >unknown USA Government outfit contacted him in the '60s, commissioning a SF >novel and requiring certain narrative elements and ideas to be inserted in >the plot. >P.K. Dick refused (and possibly turned even more paranoid) but was shocked >to find said "forced passages" in "Camp Concentration" when he read the >book years later. This seems to be part of the plot of _Radio Free Albemuth_, a Dick novel I read about a year ago. The jugenpolezei of the fascist America (ruled by a thinly disguised Richard Nixon whose initials correspond to 666) try to force Dick to write such messages into his novels; he refuses but they publish novels in his name anyway, carrying the messages. He is sent to a concentration camp, and most of his friends get bullets in the backs of their heads. Of course, the pseudo-Nixon is actually a member of the International Communist Conspiracy (along with the Pope), and Dick becomes part of an anti-conspiracy, trying to work subliminals into rock songs to let people know the truth. Most of the book was later cannibalized into _Valis_. David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:19:40 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: DG: RE: Delta Green starter - -----Original Message----- $B:9=P?M(B : Einar Mogen $B08@h(B : deltagreen@nocturne.org $BF|;~(B : 1998$BG/(B7$B7n(B18$BF|(B 9:28 $B7oL>(B : DG: Delta Green starter Einar Mogen wrote: >[I originally sent this message to Strange Aeons, but since then I've >found this mail list, and nobody answered on the other list, so:] You know, the Strange Aeons list seems VERY quiet. I subscribed for a few weeks and got, maybe about 10 messages altogether. And nothing so interesting as what I've seen on this list. I'm still subscrided to the SA Digest, I think, but I've never gotten even ONE Digest--I think they haven't had enough traffic to put one out in the last couple of months. I get a DG Digest almost every day (got 2 in one day once!). Why is that? I mean, I know we're the coolest of the cool, but folks who play regular CoC ain't no slouches in the inventiveness department? Why don't they post more? > >I've just bought Delta Green (at the annual game convention here in >Norway) and wondered how you have decided to make your Delta Green >campaigns, if the scenarios in the book work and so on. Mainly I'm >interested in different approaches to which enemies you've chosen for >Delta Green, plots that've worked great and so on. Sorry for my >quirky English. Didn't notice anything especially quirky, Einar--and you can trust me, I'm an English teacher. I agree with Shane about mixing things up a lot--get all the conspiracies working together/against each other in extremely convoluted ways. My strategy has always been: Make it so confusing that the players will never figure out that even YOU don't know what's going on. Worked great with my old Vampire campaign. It allows you to change what you've already decided on with great ease, and the players never guess that you changed your mind about who loves whom, etc. We've always got folks posting web addresses to insane conspiracy WWW pages--follow those up. Be seeing you, David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:23:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Petherick Subject: Re: DG: Mo' Concentration Camps/Rex-84 stuff At 02:43 PM 7/17/98 +0100, you wrote: > >Just as a point of history, the article in Agent Brenan's email is >slightly incorrect. It was actually us Brits who invented Concentration >camps. They were used in the Boer War at the turn of the century. The >reason for this, was that the Boers were acting like guerrila's and >attacking in hit and run raids, then hiding with the rest of the >population. So we put the rest of civillian population in concentration >camps and cut off their support. >Imperialism at its best. >We also laid down huge swathes of barbed wire across the South African >savannah in a grid formation. At each intersection, there was a manned >bunker. The idea was to cut off the Boers mobility (they typically used >horses) across country. And it worked. (Sort of.) >A fascinating period, but more 1890's Coc, than DG. > Actually, the British borrowed the idea (and name) of concentration camps, fences and manned bunkers and outposts from the Spanish. During the Cuban Revolution of ? (the one that triggered the Spanish-American War), the Spaniards laid down two ditch / wall / outpost lines across the width of the island. In areas with high support for the rebels, peasants were relocated to camps or fortified villages. The intent was to prevent them from supporting the rebels, joining the rebels or being influenced by the rebels. ********************************************************************* John Petherick, CIH jpetheri@cyberbeach.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:40:43 -0400 (EDT) From: John Petherick Subject: Re: DG: DG Concentration Camps. At 09:52 AM 7/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >John C. Detwiler wrote: >> >> I seem to remember seeing a documentary some years ago detailing how during >> the '50s and '60s (IIRC) the US and Canadian governments were taking >> retarded people and others deemed 'unfit' and putting them in institutions >> where they were sterilized. This was to keep them from breeding and >> perpetuating their 'defects'. > > I seem to recall hearing a report on NPR about that happenning from the >'30s until the '70s in Finland (I think it was Finland). Kind of scary. >-- The eugenics program in the province of Alberta began in the 1920's or 30's. It predated the Nazi eugenics program and was cited as an inspiration. Forced sterilizations apparently continued up to the 1970's. For a somewhat scarier program of the same time period, look to the Duplessis government in Quebec. A large number of children were diagnosed as mentally retarded or insane, institutionalized and sometimes sterilized. All because their mothers were not married ... and the taint of illegitimacy would surely result in morons. In the same vein, has anyone used the Tuskegee experiments in a CoC/DG campaign? ********************************************************************* John Petherick, CIH jpetheri@cyberbeach.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:27:28 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: Camp Concentration - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Joseph Camp 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年7月18日 2:49 件名 : Re: DG: Camp Concentration Alphonse wrote: >>Questioned on the subject, Disch dismissed the whole thing and said he was >>glad to know that the great writer had found the time to peruse his >>worthless book (or something equally suspicious). > >Interesting, though probably a delusion on Dick's part. Students of >synchronicity should note that Disch wrote at least one, and I think >perhaps two or three, licensed novels based on THE PRISONER television >show many a year ago. Dick had delusions to spare. Several of his books would make good source material for DG. Be seeing you, Agent Luke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:34:58 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: DG: RE: using DG in other systems (was paranoia) - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : R. Menzi 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年7月18日 11:18 件名 : DG: using DG in other systems (was paranoia) R. Menzoa wrote: >Especially when dealing with WWGS, I discourage throwing the >major supernatural types into the mix. It overexposes the >characters and in this angle, less is more. I really discourage >using Mage for magic users and cultist and definately not for >PCs, unless you want the characters to be on the same footing as >Allie And Friends. I suppose hedge magicians (written very well >in _WoD:_Sorcerer_) might be a nice way to handle non-mythos >spellcasters, but you have to decide how much you want to deviate >from CoC 5th ed. I didn't even like the Mage magic rules in my WoD games--Magi were just too darned able to do pretty much anything they wanted. I'm more and more wanting some decent rules-structure for CoC magic, though. I'll try to post something in the next few weeks, if only to encourage others to trash it constructively and, through evolution, develop something good. David Farnell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:21:39 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: RE: DG: DG Concentration Camps. - -----Original Message----- 差出人 : Eric Brennan 宛先 : Delta Green List 日時 : 1998年7月17日 23:44 件名 : Re: DG: DG Concentration Camps. Agent Wallace wrote: > I find this entire vogue of "genetic predestination," with everything >being writ in the DNA like some organic astrological chart, as being yet >another symptom of the average American's attempt to throw off personal >responsibility. Yeah, DNA does have a bit to do with it... Anyway, off the >soapbox. I could alienate eveybody on this list with my venom, and I >haven't even hit on the pirates robbing that Western Union coach... Check out Stephen J. Gould's _The Mismeasure of Man_ for a long history of such attempts to "throw off personal responsibility" and simultaneously justify racism and sexism. Good refutation of _The Bell Curve_ at the end. Might need a little math for that part, though. Be seeing you, Agent Luke ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:56:12 -0700 From: Joseph Camp Subject: Re: DG: Paranoia >By the way, for you Spanish speakers, if you can get your hands on a >game called "Mutantes en la sombra" it's a good investment for DG >keepers. Speaking of Spanish speakers, you might look for a volume titled INVASORES: LA CONSPIRACION ALIENIGENA, published by Farsa's Wagon of Barcelona. John Tynes's scenario "Convergence" appears in translated form as a scenario for that game (called HIDDEN INVASION in the U.S.) rather than for Chaosium's. Might be handy. be seeing you, Alphonse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:57:07 -0700 From: Lech Von Oxen Subject: DG: The Queen in Red, Part I Call me Lech. I am a member of a disuniform conspiracy whose goals include the following: - - To protect the citizens of the United States from threats originating with paranormal phenomena. - - To maintain the security of the United States from paranormal threats. - - To gather intelligence on paranormal phenomena. - - To deceive the public to prevent panic. But it's much more complicated than that. I have much to say on the subject of conspiracies in the U.S., yet since you won't believe me anyway, I'll just describe what I do, and you can laugh at me later. Warning: Evil is real, I have seen it, and you will now believe: - --- I received a call once, years ago, from my teenage sister who told me of an 18-year-old man named Ted Moore who was apparantly accosting young women near or on the campus of her high school. When accosted, these girls would receive promises of "powers beyond their comprehension" from Moore, who would then attempt to "show them the truth" by unbuttoning his pants. My sister had received such promises. Fortunately, the few girls who met Moore had escaped, and although the police had been contacted, Moore's presence seemed temporary; no one had sen him recently. I struck out with my pal Lentil to track down Moore. We work together at a government institution (whose name shall remain anonymous until such time identification becomes proper) -- one way the conspiracy binds us. Lentil and I also grew up together in a Californian suburb, and our understanding of what this universe truly holds remains sane only by our friendship. I would not be alive today without him. When we reached Moore's apartment, having traced his name through computer records of his junior college attendance, we found the door unlocked. No one responded to our knocks, and the sounds of crying children and television from the other apartments moved Lentil to say, "What's this guy's deal? Who is he?" "Just some shmo working at Border's and taking computer science classes at the JC," I replied, then twisted the doorknob open and stuck my head in the door. "Moore? Ted -- oh, god!" I shouted as I pulled my head back out from the apartment. The stench was unbearable. "What the fuck?" asked Lentil as he drew his pistol and stepped through the doorway. Let free, the entire rancid smell enveloped us, and we fell to our knees gagging. Once we backed up further into the hall, we both held hankerchiefs to our mouths, and I drew my pistol. A woman stepped out of the apartment next door. "What's going on?" she shouted at us. From under the hankerchief I shouted back, "Call the police." Then, with a nod to Lentil, we both stepped into the apartment. Lentil moved down the hall as I checked the kitchen and living room. The smell sank into our skin. "Lech!" called Lentil, and I ran back toward his voice. Outside the bedroom, he leaned with one arm against the hall wall, breathing heavily, and as I passed him his eyes flashed the code: It's bad. Two naked, teenaged girls lay sprawled on the bedroom floor; dried blood caked their inner thighs, and their faces had been chewed away. The silver-dollar-sized holes across their cheeks, mouths, chins, noses, eyes and foreheads left little identification. My eyes moved between the two girls, and my stomach and member rose simultaniously. I puked over their feet. Lentil came in behind me, but turned away with a "Fuck...," and I heard him dry heave as well. When our rasping finished, I stood slowly, moved almost out of the room when I heard a gurgle from the bed. Moore's body lay sprawled across the covers, his bloody hands, mouth and groin testament to his crime. But the rasping came again, and I stepped forward, examining his blood-encrusted face; his smile almost reached his ears. The rasping came once more, but Moore was not breathing, his dead face was white and had begun shriveling past rigor mortis; his fat, lazy stomach had shrunk to resemble an anthill. The rasping came once more. Then I turned my head slowly to his groin, and I noticed for the first time he had no penis. Instead a small mouth filled his groin cavity, and it spat blood and gnashed sharp teeth; brains and mucus frothed. I only know that my pistol was emptied of all 13 shots. As I would expect, Lentil took care of everything; flashed badges change everything, and only once we sat in a bar with eight shots of vodka and ten cigarettes within each of us could Lentil talk to me. "That was Moore alright, and two students from your sister's school. Seems the girls had been missing for days but the cops hadn't said anything for fear of panic. Evidently no one else knew it was Moore -- all the girls had been," and he held up his fingers to quote, "'too scared to talk.' Sounds like someone got to them before us. Think it's MJ12?" he asked. I downed another shot, lit another cigarette, closed my eyes and pressed them with my fingers. I saw the mouth before my eyes, but then it blurred slightly. The vodka was working. I looked at Lentil. "Did Moore have friends?" I asked. - --- This transmission concluded for fear of interception. More information when safe again. Call me Lech. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:13:50 -0700 From: Joseph Camp Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: DG: Delta Green starter CO Ivey, I forwarded your queries on to John Tynes at Pagan, who responded with the following... be seeing you, Alphonse - ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 7/17/98 11:59 PM Received: 7/18/98 12:09 AM From: John Tynes, rev@tccorp.com To: alphonse@delta-green.com >As for "The New Age," the playtest transcripts might be on Pagan >Publishing's >website or ftp files someplace. If they're not, with Mr. Tynes' >permission I >could dig up a copy and post them on the web. Only with permission, >though; >we're talking spoilers with a capital "G". You're welcome to put them up. I've kept them off because of the spoiler factor, but placing them onto your site rather than Pagan's would probably take care of that. >PS: Just curious: whatever happened to The Gamer, Mr Shiny, and the rest >from the New Age transcripts? The Gamer was Scott Haring, then and now the editor of PYRAMID magazine and the managing editor for Steve Jackson Games. Mr Shiny was Jeff Carey, a long-time CoC buff and GenCon GM; he still pops up on our AOL message board every now and then. I can't recall the other players offhand. I always intended to print transcripts from the online playtest of "The New Age" (back in 1993) in the DG book itself as examples of how to handle certain scenes in that campaign. But space restrictions--yes, we did have space restrictions, despite it being a 300+ page book--led me to ditch that material. John Tynes rev@tccorp.com [] If you have the guts to be yourself, http://www.tccorp.com/rev/ [] other people'll pay your price. Pagan Publishing & Commando Creative [] <--------------freelance writing, editing, graphic design & HTML---------------> - ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:14:56 -0700 From: Lech Von Oxen Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green starter My thought is this: when your players have enough information to make them think they may have it figured out -- change it all. Keep the conspiracy behind closed doors, and only let them peer in through holes in the walls and catch snatches of conversation. Instill a sense of desperation in them -- if they just had a *touch* more information, all would be clear. Of course, they could have all the information in the universe and that information would just drive them insane... As a Keeper, paranoia is your best friend. Communicate with your players secretly and individually, and make the others' imaginations go wild. No matter how hard you try, your players will always think of weirder and more illogical conspiracies than you. This is your ace in the hole. I prefer to stick to a couple key antagonists and cults welding respective tomes of horror (stories of which shall be posted on this list in the coming weeks). Yet it needs to be hard to understand -- all of my player's problems could be boiled down to one hideous tome, but damned if they can't seem to track a copy down. Not as if it would do them any good -- this particular tome successfully predicts a nasty and violent end to any who read it. Anyone care to give it a try? So... My DG team consists of three DG agents supported by three or four friendlies. Although the DG agents know of DG, they don't know what it means. All they get is irregular clues and missions from their cell leader, who as yet is only identified by a letter. The players know they can trust him ... to a certain extent. He has yet to steer them wrong, but paranoid is as paranoid does, as my mama used to say. And the friendlies just know something really fucked up is going on. The bottom line is this: a conspiracy, by nature, is exclusive in its motives and organization. If, and that's a big if, your players are going to recognize and understand this conspiracy, make 'em pay for it. After all, nothing is free, not even sanity. Call me Lech. > > I've just bought Delta Green (at the annual game convention here in > Norway) and wondered how you have decided to make your Delta Green > campaigns, if the scenarios in the book work and so on. Mainly I'm > interested in different approaches to which enemies you've chosen for > Delta Green, plots that've worked great and so on. Sorry for my > quirky English. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:18:46 -0500 From: "Paul Edson" Subject: DG: Re: RE: using DG in other systems (was paranoia) Quoth David Farnell: >I'm more and more >wanting some decent rules-structure for CoC magic, though. Can I suggest looking at the Liber Ka from Nephilim? Great and reasonably realistic (as far as the actual practices go... results are not for me to say, eh?) rules for ritual magic that should port relatively easily to CoC. Paul Edson (pedson@erols.com) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:23:58 -0700 From: pkapera@juno.com Subject: DG: Deadlands / CoC crossover announcement >Actually, the papers have already been signed. Deadlands and CoC will >indeed be doing a crossover. They hope to have it out this fall... >Delta Green, Coc, and Deadlands... gotta love role-playing games. O.K. Here's the skippy. This book is in-house at Pinnacle. It's written by JohnWick (the luny git that wrote the L5R RPG - I can call him that because I work for him), and should be out in the fall (I think). It's done (written), cool as hell, and on the way. - P. Controlled chaos is cool. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:24:38 -0700 From: pkapera@juno.com Subject: DG: Apocalyptic TV On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:01:50 GMT0BST Robert Thomas writes: >> Remember "Sledge Hammer"? >> > >> - P. >> >> > > HAMMMER!!! > >Wow I thought I was the only one who watched that at 2 in >the morning! Nope. I caught the original prime time run. But I guess that hints at both my age and bad taste, doesn't it? - P. Controlled chaos is cool. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:42:34 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: DG: illumanati I'm working my way thru the illumanatus triliogy, and i'm about 1/2 thru the second book....I've noticed that the illumanatus have much the same goals as the Karotecha do in the dg source book.... coincidence? I wonder... I also liked what they put in the Pentagon...well, not that i'd want to talk to him...but I thought it was an interesting place to stick him until they needed him... on with the book...' Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:52:17 -0400 From: Steven Kaye Subject: Re: DG: Mo' Concentration Camps/Rex-84 stuff John Petherick wrote: >Actually, the British borrowed the idea (and name) of concentration camps, >fences and manned bunkers and outposts from the Spanish. > >During the Cuban Revolution of ? (the one that triggered the >Spanish-American War), the Spaniards laid down two ditch / wall / outpost >lines across the width of the island. In areas with high support for the >rebels, peasants were relocated to camps or fortified villages. The intent >was to prevent them from supporting the rebels, joining the rebels or being >influenced by the rebels. This was during the Ten Years' War (1868-1878) - the Spanish built two fortified lines running north-to-south, surrounded with barbed wire, punji sticks, land mines, and cheveux-de-frise (jagged spikes or glass set into the masonry of the wall). A railway ran down the trochas (as they were called), and there were regular forts/blockhouses along the trochas. Part of the reason for the reconcentrado policy (which earned General Weyler much condemnation and helped influence U.S. opinion in favor of war), was that the Cuban rebels were destroying anything of economic value to deny resources to the Spanish and to encourage the U.S. to send troops (the U.S. invested heavily in Cuba). There's a great quote from the Cuban leader to this effect - "Blessed be the torch!" To bring this back to Delta Green, has anybody moved the creation of Delta Green farther back than 1928? I'm toying with the idea of a Delta Green in the 1890's, dating back to the Indian Wars (or possibly even further?). Steven - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Kaye box_nine@ix.NOSPAM.netcom.com "Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you." -- Satchell Paige ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:07:39 EDT From: MgkellyMP5@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Apocalyptic TV In a message dated 98-07-18 06:34:38 EDT, you write: > Wow I thought I was the only one who watched that at 2 in > >the morning! > > Nope. I caught the original prime time run. But I guess > that hints at both my age and bad taste, doesn't it? > > Hell, I remember 'Sledge hammer' on Prime Time also and I'm not that old! Or maybe that's the only section of my memory the booze never affected ;] Mgkelly ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:32:52 EDT From: CroakerJr@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Mo' Concentration Camps/Rex-84 stuff In a message dated 98-07-18 09:57:34 EDT, you write: << I'm toying with the idea of a Delta Green in the 1890's, dating back to the Indian Wars (or possibly even further?). >> My impression is that anything like this would be VERY informal and small. Remember, the federal government in those days was a completely different beast than it is now, and it had far fewer powers and resources, and far less presitge and involvement in international affairs. What organized conspiracies would exist would probably follow the Masonic/Illuminatus pattern: men linked by secret societies who achieve positions of political and economic power and use that power to further their secret (occult) ends. In the world of DG, THAT sort of thing may have been going on for centuries; look at the whole George Washington/Baron Westhauphen (sp??) theory. Shane Ivey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:35:56 EDT From: CroakerJr@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green starter In a message dated 98-07-18 03:15:29 EDT, you write: << My thought is this: when your players have enough information to make them think they may have it figured out -- change it all. Keep the conspiracy behind closed doors, and only let them peer in through holes in the walls and catch snatches of conversation. Instill a sense of desperation in them -- if they just had a *touch* more information, all would be clear. >> Exactly! The players should grasp any vague hint like drowning men clawing for air, even knowing that half the hints may be outright lies. The book Delta Green presents the conspiracies in a wonderfully concise, orderly, clear manner: that can make it easy to forget that the PLAYERS should never ever see more than one corner of it at a time. Shane Ivey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 08:54:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Bowman Subject: Re: DG: Re: RE: using DG in other systems (was paranoia) On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Paul Edson wrote: > Quoth David Farnell: > > >I'm more and more > >wanting some decent rules-structure for CoC magic, though. > > Can I suggest looking at the Liber Ka from Nephilim? Great and > reasonably realistic (as far as the actual practices go... results are > not for me to say, eh?) rules for ritual magic that should port > relatively easily to CoC. I also higly recommend Forsaken Rites (for Conspiracy X), also by John Snead (the author of Liber Ka). I thought it superior to Liber Ka in terms of feeling realistic. You might also want to check out the magic system in GURPS Voodoo: The Shadow War. I'm working towards beginning a DG campaign this fall and will be using the Forsaken Rites magic system (with, probably, the Conspiracy X psychic system as well). Michael Bowman bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:53:40 EDT From: CroakerJr@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Salaries << How much does a government agent get paid these days? Of course, I realize it depends on the department, seniority, etc. etc. ad nauseam. But can we get some ballpark figures? Somehow, rolling on that $15,000-105,000 figure table in the rulebook doesn't seem right. >> Most civilian government agencies follow the "GS" scale, which you can find on the US Office of Personnel Management site. http://www.opm.gov/oca/payrates/index.htm Federal law enforcement officers typically start at GS-7 ($28,030); those with exceptional college performance or graduate degrees may start at GS-9 ($31,266). Those with doctorate or law degrees may start at GS-11 or 12. With each year of service an employee moves up one step within the grade, until a promotion moves him or her up to the next pay grade (7 to 8, or 9 to 10). The FBI and intelligence an military agencies use a different system. FBI agents start around $35-40K, IIRC. CIA case officers start in the mid-30's. Military officers start in the mid to high 20s (plus they often have perks like heavily discounted housing). Those at the top of the line, who have been in service for decades and moved way up the food chain, might bring in salaries up to $80K, but not often more than that. Working in the civil service, most people can be comfortable, but rarely rich. You put that together with greed and/or disillusionment and a treasonous nature and half-assed internal security in a critical agency, and you get Aldrich Ames--or the equivalent in any agency which Delta Green operatives might need to penetrate. Shane Ivey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:43:32 -0700 From: "Bruce Baugh" Subject: Re: DG: DG Concentration Camps. From: David Farnell >Check out Stephen J. Gould's _The Mismeasure of Man_ for a long history of >such attempts to "throw off personal responsibility" and simultaneously >justify racism and sexism. Good refutation of _The Bell Curve_ at the end. >Might need a little math for that part, though. It's worth noting that Gould attracts _very_ serious criticisms from historians of science. Not that he presents wrong info, but a) he blithely refuses to acknowledge data that would complicate matters and b) never responds to demonstrations of complicating factors left out. His work is at best incomplete, at worst misleading; compare, for instance, his remarks about 19th century geologists with those in Mott Greene's histories of the field. Gould slants. - -- Bruce Baugh brucebaugh@mindspring.com http://brucebaugh.home.mindspring.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:58:56 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: RE: using DG in other systems (was paranoia) On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, David Farnell wrote: > R. Menzoa wrote: > > >Especially when dealing with WWGS, I discourage throwing the > >major supernatural types into the mix. It overexposes the > >characters and in this angle, less is more. I really discourage > >using Mage for magic users and cultist and definately not for > >PCs, Depends, if you're running straight DG then no, but if you're running Mage with Cthulhu/Nephandi then yes. Delta Green Agents shouldn't be reality deviants tho', ruins the flavor of the game. I use the much maligned Project Twilight for Character Creation. While the background info pretty much sucks, it did introduce Dr. Emil Zotos and Bob Schoblin so not all of it reeks to high heaven. In my campaign one of the Fate is a Sabbat Tzimicse. But no one's met him yet. He fleshcrafts to impersonate other Fate-heads and has even been known to impersonate Alzis. > > I suppose hedge magicians (written very well > >in _WoD:_Sorcerer_) might be a nice way to handle non-mythos > >spellcasters, but you have to decide how much you want to deviate > >from CoC 5th ed. Hedge magic adds to the atmosphere, but that one African Shaman guy from the DG book is a Dreamspeaker without question. > I didn't even like the Mage magic rules in my WoD games--Magi were just too > darned able to do pretty much anything they wanted. This is purely up to the Storyteller. I make anything without a ton of "paradigm" and magickal style totally Vulgar and subject to tons of automatic paradox (I roll a 1d10 - yeouch!) Paradox is the built in Game Balance for Mages. That and the fact that mortals can't soak. (I tossed this rule faster than Viagra down Al Goldstein's gullet :) The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:44:43 EDT From: CroakerJr@aol.com Subject: DG: Missing documents! ALPHONSE: Our researchers have determined that the case files for operation NEW AGE (March-December, 1993) have been purged from our cell's mainframe. No doubt this is another result of the infamous Hard Drive Formatting disaster of late 1996, but you might advise the other cells to verify their comsec protocols and file transfer logs. You can believe that our protocols have been given a thorough reaming and reorganization. If you see a certain NSA officer walking funny next week, you'll know why. One hard copy of the files remains intact, but you know our budget. Transcription from the appx. 200 pages of print to electronic files is frankly beyond our means. If you have other electronic copies of the files, please forward them and I will place them online for intercompartmental access. Be seeing you. Shane Ivey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:33:54 -0400 From: "R. Menzi" Subject: DG: overusing other systems in DG - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >>> In my campaign one of the Fate is a Sabbat Tzimicse. But no one's met him yet. He fleshcrafts to impersonate other Fate-heads and has even been known to impersonate Alzis. <<< The Fate are an interesting group that is shady enough to include just about anything you could want to put in it, but I'd think that they would belong first and foremost to the Fate, not one side or another of some petty undead triffle, much less a human one (I mean that uberborring Asencion War that seems to drown any half interesting Mage game I've ever seen). For those of you who were interested in WWII DG games, Alzis and the Fate was plenty busy back then, on both sides of the war, I'd bet. If you could find him in the pentagon, you could find him in SS headquarters. Alzis' interests exceed simple ideological wars for world domination. >>> that one African Shaman guy from the DG book is a Dreamspeaker without question. <<< When deciding to up the ante on the power of characters presented in the books, I'd suggest first asking why. Lt. Col. Emil Furst's character decription doesn't have anything to do with the themes that are central to the Mage game. It reads like he saw some really crazy shit go down and learned some nice tricks from the locals, not the key to understanding the nature of reality. Frankly, a good factor for judging if a character would be a reality warper ala WWGS's Mage is to see if they have a SAN rating. If they're still into the usual human perspective, they aint a reality warper yet. I'd just give him some training by the Uzoma society of sorcerers (conviniently found in _WoD:_Sorcerer_) and leave it at that. >>> Paradox is the built in Game Balance for Mages. <<< Just a last note on the Mage angle, since it's one that I've seen give the most abuse to game incorporated into it. Paradox might be instant game balance (just add water), but it comes with /alot/ of cosmological baggage. It makes reality's laws out to be enirely dependant on humanity and the general human agreement about what can happen and what can't. If you try something that is against the rules, it either doesn't work or it hurts you bad. One of the things I very much like about CoC is that it places them in the reverse order of importance: reality works the way it works, and humanity has just found a way to dumb down the details to a level with which it's comfortable. If something happens that goes against the illusion, it just exposes one of the flaws in the model and anybody who sees it has to come to grips with the way things really are (or make the San roll and come up with an excuse for it). I'm not say that elements of DG can't add a great conspiracy angle to another game, I guess my point is that adding too much of another game's cosmology, especially when it is at odds with the flavor of CoC and DG (like the way WWGS's Mage line makes humanity matter far too much to qualify as Lovecraftian), just detracts from what I like about DG. Regards, >>> R. Menzi - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNYwcsahFxkX3nANTEQLL4QCg3q6HlOfmzivwoyBzRfD+A59/ITkAn0Ch YF5IYgWUkAaM2sRjoBUQjDWx =rL7e - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:43:08 -0500 From: Kevin Subject: DG: A suggested campaign for the 1950s [Keepers Eyes Only] I've been lurking on the list for a while and have been enjoying the high level of discussion here and would just like to detail a few campaign ideas. Although I describe the following as a campaign for the players to play through in the 1950s and 1960s there's no reason why it can't be treated as mystery unravelled by modern day DG agents who begin to find out what their predecessors was up to in that time period. Anyway on with the show: SPOILERS BELOW V V V V V V V V V V V V V While I don't like the idea usually of the Mythos being behind every historical event (and I'd like to thank the folks at Pagan for not succumbing to the temptation) I thought the following is too hard to resist. First off, have the PCs recruited by Delta Green , send them off on a few cases, tracking down Cults that spring up around flying saucers, Talk show Psychics whose powers are real etc. After a while have them deal with a member of the Fate situated in Chicago. Have the Agents make a few contacts in the Chicago underworld. Later have them go down to New Orleans to clean up the remnants of the Cthulhu cult Legrasse thought he defeated, have them make a few more contacts. After the Cuban Revolution when Castro sent all those "undesirables" to Miami, have the PCs deal with a few exiles who are of "fishier" bent than most. Even more contacts are made. Through out the campaign, give hints a certain public figure is not what he seems, with each clue making the person more and more identifiable. By the time The agents have uncovered his identity it should seem too late. Perhaps because of a trip to Britain or Vermont (whatever the Keeper decides) This figure isn't human and has certain plans that will soon reach fruition. At this point the agents, not knowing who to turn to in their government ( except perhaps for certain elements in the CIA and FBI ) because of the figure's position finally pursue the one course of action that still seems open: They will have to assassinate the entity posing as President Kennedy. Hmmmm, perhaps now that I've described it would seem too much like railroading the players that it'd make a better backstory to a modern day campaign. But I just thought as a GM the look on the players' faces when they realize what's going on would be priceless. Still I think it beats some boring old "Lee Harvey Oswald was a pawn of Nyarlothotep/MJ-12/Cthulhu" nonsense.... Kevin ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #73 *******************************