From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V1 #298 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Monday, January 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 298 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:06:50 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Womack Subject: DG: Off-Topic Posts Folks-- If you feel obliged to put "Off Topic" in your subject line, then what you're discussing doesn't belong on the list. It's that simple. When a discussion on this list evolves to the point that there is no longer any DG-related content, it's time to take it off-list. I'm not saying that these aren't worthwhile conversations; far from it. What they are, however, is inappropriate for this forum. Therefore, there will be no further discussions of tobacco use, drug use, or any of the related topics that have been bouncing around on the list for the past couple of days with little or no relevance to things DG. I'm putting my foot down, as I did with the guns 'n' ammo post several months ago. The current discussions should be curtailed, and these topics should not be reintroduced until and unless they can be made directly pertinent to DG. Any questions/comments/concerns/complaints, direct them to me privately. Thanks for your cooperation. Chris Womack Keeper of the List oaktree@nocturne.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:48:40 EST From: Michael Layne Subject: Re: DG: Igor's sad tale, and a Victor (long) On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 08:29:57 +0100 Jesper Anderson writes: >Note: I'm in no way an expert on submarines. This is a basic scetch of >an interesting, modified submarine the Karotechia can get their hands >on. It's currently based on a Victor class submarine. If someone knows >why it shouldn't be, let me know. Any and all comments are welcome. A Victor would be a good choice -- likely a Victor III -- unless your mission absolutely requires ballistic missile launch capability. Other good choices would be K-222 (the sole example of the Papa class SSGN) or an Akula (newest type of Russian SSN actually in service and probably more difficult to obtain).... (Sad fate of Igor snipped to conserve bandwidth...) Personally, I think Galt made a major blunder in his treatment of Igor. Not only does killing and eating your technical advisors tend to earn you exactly the wrong sort of reputation, but the unfortunate Igor (apparently at least a Captain Second Rank (Kapitan Vtorogo Ranga) in the former Soviet Navy, and likely a Captain First Rank (Kapitan Pervogo Ranga)) was probably the only person at the SVB with experience in SSN command! Igor was most likely a graduate of the Leninsky Komsomol Higher Naval School of Submarine Warfare (Leningrad), along with some postgraduate work at Soviet Naval Schools and universities. If he was being considered for Flag rank, he would have also been a graduate of the Grechko Naval Academy (Leinigrad) -- roughly equivalent to the USN's Naval War College -- and the Voroshilov General Staff Academy (Moscow) -- equivalent to the US National War College. I doubt this training and experience made him taste any better to the cannibal Herr Galt, but it is training and experience the Karotechia is likely to sorely miss! If the same sort of treatment was afforded the boat's Chief Engineer (most likely a Captain Third Rank (Kapitan Tretyego Ranga), a graduate of the F.E. Dzerzhinsky Higher Naval Engineering School and the prestigeous Krylov Institution (an engineering school, considered equivalent to MIT, currently part of the Grechko Naval Academy)) , they may be in for an even more difficult time -- those Karotechia scientists and mercenary Russian techs may be able to tinker with the plant, but they are probably not experienced reactor operators! IIRC, the Russian Navy does much the same thing as the British Royal Navy, splitting its officers after their initial SSN/SSBN tour, to the "Operational track" which leads to command (I'm not sure if the Russians have anything like the USN's Submarine Command Course or the RN's "Perisher" course), and the "Engineering track" which leads to a posting as a Chief Engineer. (Before the breakup of the USSR, there was a separate track for "Political Officer" -- the infamous "Zampolit", but I don't think that one's being used any longer....) Also, unlike the USN and RN, the Russian Navy crews its vessels largely with short-time conscripts -- only the senior CPOs (starshinii), warrant officers (michman), and officers really have any great degree of technical training. (For further research on this matter, I can recommend Norman Polmar's "Guide to the Soviet Navy".) Certainly, the Special K could try and resurrect a WWII U-boat ace (Kapitaenleutnant Werner Henke of U-515, for example), but he would have to spend a great deal of time familiarizing himself with the technology and tactics. Nuclear power and the Albacore hull, together with a host of less obvious new technologies, have extensively changed the way a submarine operates and fights. Rather than a submersible torpedo boat (capable of 17.7 knots on the surface, 7.6 submerged -- in the case of a Type VIIc) with sharply limited underwater endurance (180 nm at 2 knots on a full battery charge), we now have a true submarine, with an air-independent propulsion plant, operational endurance limited primarily by the amount of supplies carried, and a submerged speed of 30+ knots! A modern SSN is considerably stealthier than its WWII counterpart, with better sensors, considerably greater depth capability, better habitability (in most cases), and (in many cases) the addition of stand-off ordnance to the weapons mix... I'm not saying someone like Kapitaenleutnant Henke couldn't handle a Victor or Papa -- just that, especially at first, he couldn't use it to its full potential! (If a USN or RN sub captain, assigned to hunt him down, realizes who and what he is up against, things could get really interesting as the DG Friendly SSN captain figures out that his foe is using adaptations of WWII U-boat tactics, and works to anticipate and sink him before the German captain can get ahead of the learning curve!):) (For a look at how a Henke might do things, check the WWII German Navy's "bible" for U-boat commanders.... "The U-Boat Commander's Handbook"; my copy is a 1989 reprint by Thomas Publications of the 1943 edition (ISBN 0-939631-21-0)):) > >Modified Victor class submarine > >The submarine is purchased via the Russian Mafia. They also provided a >few crewmembers, including Igor, to train the aryan crew. It was part >of a proposed sale to (India? suggestions?) that didn't fall through >because of the breakup of the USSR. This is quite plausible. The Soviet Navy leased a Charlie I SSGN to the Indian Navy on 1 January 1988. The boat operated under the name "Chakra", and was returned (reportedly in poor material condition) in January of 1991. A second Charlie I (to be named "Chitra") was to have been leased, but, for some reason, this deal apparently was cancelled. The Indian Navy is reportedly conducting research toward building its own SSN, but, although the program enjoys priority funding, most Naval analysts consider an indigenous Indian SSN to be "many years in the future due to India's economic problems and the uncertainty of outside assistance". >. It was >shipped to TEUFELHAUS in parts. Extraordinarily difficult, incredibly time-consuming, and probably quite unnecessary! Far more likely the boat was transferred (under the Arctic ice) from the Northern Fleet anchorage to the Pacific, and proceeded from Vladivostok to the SVB, with a crew from the new owners, and Russian technical advisors (such as our unlucky friend Igor). Any observers would consider it another Russian SSN going out on patrol.... There is the matter of the US Pacific Fleet SSN that would be standing "gatekeeper" duty in international waters near Vladivostok. (Yes, we still have them out there, submerged off the Russian sub bases, even in this era where The Russians Are Our Friends!):) There are ways around that. One Russian submarine doctrine is operation of SSNs in pairs -- a practice left over from the days when the technology gap between US and Russian SSNs was much wider than it is today. The Special K sub would sortie together with a "linebacker" SSN of the Russian Navy (likely a Victor III or Akula), the second SSN operating a few km astern of the Karotechia boat. When the US SSN (a Los Angeles or Sturgeon class boat) detects the lead Russian SSN (and it will) and moves into its baffles to get a closer look, the "linebacker" would make its move. It wouldn't torpedo the American -- that would be an act of war, and, also, acoustic homing torpedoes can be rather unselective and might home on the wrong boat. However, almost anything else would go... The "linebacker" would charge in, screw cavitating as necessary, ping the American with high-intensity sonar, make close approaches (as if it is going to ram) and generally gain and hold the American boat's attention. Eventually, after the Karotechia sub has safely departed the scene, the Russian SSN would disengage. (The Russian Captain had a relatively safe assignment -- under current Rules of Engagement, the American Captain couldn't shoot first, and the major worries would be collision with the American SSN or its towed passive sonar array!) This has been done before by the Russians -- mainly to shake American SSNs following Russian SSBNs -- and would probably rate a write-up in the American Captain's patrol report -- if the other sub wasn't a "boomer", why did it rate this sort of treatment? > >The skin is created/summoned by the spell learned from the insane >resurrected Eisenschloss scientist. > It absorbs most EM and >kinetic signals going in and out of the vessel, making radio contact a >bit harder than usual but also lowering the vessels EM and sound >signature significantly. It probably won't do a thing to the sub's effect on the local magnetic field, so the boat would still be detectable by MAD. (Magnetic Anomaly Detection -- normally used by aircraft.) Of course, that also means the sub's magnetic compasses wouldn't be screwed up... :) Interestingly, though, the Russian Navy has been conducting limited experiments with flexible hull coatings and boundary-layer control (sometimes with the aid of polymer injection) although Russia's current economic troubles have apparently kept these innovations from seeing operational service. (As far as the public knows...):) The USN apparently tried out a flexible hull coating nicknamed "mammalian skin" (likely patterned off dolphin skin) on some of its 637 class (Sturgeon class) SSNs. On the 688I (Improved Los Angeles class) vessels it switched to sound-absorbing tiles on the exterior. Many of the Russian SSNs, SSGNs, and SSBNs already use rubber-compound anechoic tiles of varying thicknesses. (Look closely at some of the photos of Russian subs on the surface, and you'll occasionally see odd random rectangular depressions where one or more tiles have come loose -- as Norman Polmar puts it in "Combat Fleets of the World 1995", "apparently Russian adhesives technology is deficient"...):) This would not rule out substitution of an exotic flexible hull coating on something like the boat in consideration here, especially as it would _not_ be applied by a Russian shipyard! > >It also provides an extra protection against kinetic energy attacks, >sealing up small leaks and even closing over the broken ends if the >sub gets destroyed. This enhances the survivability of the vessel >against conventional weapons considerably. Depending on the exact class of boat, and where it takes the hit, a Russian submarine might be able to survive a hit from a Mk 48 torpedo, or might sink immediately. Some types, such as the Typhoon SSBNs and Oscar SSGNs, have a double hull, with significant "stand-off" distance between the outer and inner hulls, and a torpedo hit amidships might just rupture a ballast tank, and inflict personnel and equipment casualties through concussion. Other classes (such as the Victor, I believe) are closer to the "single hull" construction of most US SSNs (with the ballast tanks at the bow and stern, instead of on each side of the pressure hull), and a hit there that penetrates the hull would probably be a kill. 300 meters down, it's hard to get a "small" leak in the hull! The Karotechia mad scientists may _claim_ the material "will close over the broken ends if the sub gets destroyed", but (IMHO) this is wishful thinking on their part! (Significantly, they are still going to be outside the submarine when the hatch is closed...) :) The violence of an explosion sufficient to break the submarine's back, and the pressure of the sea, are probably going to make the sealing effects of the hull coating "too little, too late"! If the boat gets blown in half, most of her crew probably won't even have time to drown! (Some of the watertight bulkheads might hold up initially in such a case, but the wreck would eventually bottom -- very rapidly and destructively (leaving an impressive debris field for the local Deep ones to sift through) -- or would sink to a depth where the remaining watertight compartments would collapse from the pressure. When a bulkhead breaks, even the shock-front of air moving ahead of the incoming water would be enough to kill anyone (through heat and pressure) who survived the original break up...) Of course, even a near miss >with a tactical nuclear missile will destroy it and the sub outright. Yes, the Mk 45 ASTOR nuclear antisubmarine torpedo the USN used for several years was rumored to have a kill probability of 2.0: target vessel and firing vessel! > >Navigation and communication technology is state of the art US tech, >combined with state of the art USSR tech, purchased through Dr Frank's >contact net. Several types of float antennas and scope mounted >antennas are used to bypass the EM absorbtion provided by the skin. You'd be using these antennas in any case -- even when surfaced, a submarine's metal hull is going to block radio reception without external antennas. Your normal antennas would be a whip antenna on a mast you could extend (like a periscope) from the sail while operating at periscope depth (remember to slow down when you come to periscope depth -- speeds of over 8 knots or so can bend over extended periscopes and antennas), and a trailing wire antenna (supported by a buoy) intended for reception of VLF radio broadcasts from the headquarters ashore. You would only be able to receive regular radio stations, and transmit, using the retractable whip antenna(s) in the sail. In addition, you would likely have a retractable ESM (Electronic Surveillence Measures) mast in the sail, which you would extend first to detect any radar emissions in the area. Some Russian subs have only one periscope, but most have two. One of these is an "attack periscope" -- with a thin upper section intended to produce as little visible spray, and as small a radar return, as possible. This is generally the one you would use for attacking surface targets with torpedoes. Your other periscope is a more bulky affair, nicknamed the "night periscope", because it has a larger tube and upper lens, for better light-gathering power. This scope might also be clad in RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) but is still more conspicuous than the attack periscope. This second periscope may also mount a small rangefinding radar, or a laser rangefinder (this may have been what Captain Mancuso was using to signal Captain Ramius in the movie version of "Hunt for Red October"), and frequently is also set up for photography (to get pictures of the torpedoed ships going down!). > >Armament is, depending on planned missions, the scenario and the >keeper's whim >(the ballistic missile silos have been rebuilt with launch platforms >for more immediately useful weapons): A Victor or Papa class boat wouldn't have any ballistic missile tubes to worry about. (A Papa would have launch tubes, but for cruise missiles...) If you absolutely _must_ play with ballistic missiles, get yourself a "boomer" -- an SSBN! I'd recommend a Delta or even a Typhoon if you could get one... :) > >Stolen Tomahawk missiles with conventional and/or tactical nuclear >warheads. Perhaps also chemical or biological agents. Considerably more likely than the Tomahawk would be the Russian-made SS-N-25 (Kh-35) antiship missile ("official" NATO codename is "Switchblade", but its unofficial nickname in the US and UK is "Harpoonski"). (I'll post a URL for the website of the Kh-35 later...) Not only is it fully compatible with the existing firecontrol systems of modern Russian subs (unlike the Tomahawk) but the Russians are busily trying to sell the Kh-35 on the international market! A Victor III might also mount a horizontal armored box launcher for two SS-N-21 "Sampson" (RKV-500 Granat) cruise missiles (somewhat like the Tomahawk). Several of the later Victor IIIs mount an ABL (armored to make it pressureproof, and to withstand the stresses of surfacing through ice) on the upper casing just forward of the sail. > >SAM and HARM missiles for immediate defense. If the boat mounts SAMs, these would likely be an SA-N-5 system, using a naval version of the SA-7 "Strella" (NATO codename "Grail") -- a small tube-launched solid-fuel IR homing AA missile, not unlike an early version of the US "Stinger". This would be in a retractable quad mount on the aft end of the sail, and, aimed by remote TV camera (with a limited field of view), would be somewhat awkward to use against fast-moving aircraft (although deadly against hovering helicopters and straight and level flying patrol planes which wouldn't expect to be attacked by a sub). The missiles are not self-initiating, so you would have to get a lock with the missile's seeker on the target before you fired. Also, you have to partially broach the sail -- partially surface - -- to clear the launcher for firing. (The USN was working on the SIAM (Self Initiating Antiaircraft Missile) which you would simply launch vertically, and let it come on line and seek its target once it clears the water, but the system apparently fell victim to the budget cutters!) The above description for the SA-N-5 is based on the systems actually installed on some Russian-built "Kilo" class submarines. HARM would be a bit more difficult to use, but these are only useful vs. radar transmitters. An SSN or SSBN spends most of its time submerged, and would not have to worry (much) about radar detection. If you absolutely must silence a radar station from a distance, there may be an "anti-radiation" homing system available for the SS-N-25 which could do the job! > >Unmanned surveillance aircraft? Perhaps an experimental "saucercraft"? >Or a hovercraft (perhaps outlandish looking) might be sufficient to >perform assaults and put troops ashore in a hurry. Unmanned surveillence aircraft are a definite possibility. The Royal Navy has operated SSNs in conjunction with "Predator" recon drones. The USN is looking into submarine-launched drones for air recon and long-range antiship missile targeting. Among the most interesting concepts are some of the small drone helicopters coming onto the market. (In a novel I read several years ago, entitled "Warhead", I believe, a US Trident SSBN was using a modified T-LAM (Tomahawk Land Attack missile, with the extended range) as a sub-launched sensor platform and targeting system for T-ASMs (Tomahawk Anti-Ship Missiles) which would be launched when the T-LAM sensors found a target. With enough fuel to fly 1500 nm to a target, the T-LAM could circle for a considerable time, and the sub only had to keep its whip antenna up to control the drone and recieve data...) For troop landings, you're better off with rubber boats -- you can't deflate a hovercraft and pass it down through the hatch before diving. > >Propulsion system is nuclear fission based, modernized and boosted by >some of the finer minds the Karotechia could set on the task. It's >also shielded in the same skin as the outer hull of the submarine, as >an extra precaution. The larger amount of radiation this skin material >receives causes it to be a lot more active than the outer skin. This >manifests in a mental "noise" heard throughout the submarine. The >range of this noise is only a few meters, but it tends to cause SAN >loss (0/D3) when first heard. It can also slowly erode SAN of the crew >and others who hear it (keepers discretion). It figures they might use some of it for this... For a Victor III, your plant is going to be a pressurized water reactor (not unlike the ones in USN and RN subs, though probably with a somewhat narrower safety margin, and fewer safety devices -- which would make _me_ slightly nervous, with or without the odd effects of psychic "noise" from the nonstandard reactor shielding!). The Karotechia would almost certainly not replace it with a sodium-cooled or even lead-bismuth-cooled reactor. (While they are crazy, they are not _that_ crazy!):) Although liquid-metal-cooled reactors (as in the Alfa class subs or the original US SSN "Seawolf") have a significantly higher energy density, they are also less safe -- the liquid metal in the primary loop becomes highly radioactive in the reactor, and, besides the potential radiation problems, is fiercely reactive with water (such as that in the secondary coolant loop). Coolant leaks in the primary loop would announce themselves through increases in background radiation, and probable fire and explosion. (Fire and explosion in a nuclear power plant are not nice things even on the surface! If you are 300 meters underwater at the time, they are far worse...):) In addition, maintenance problems with the "Alfas" have pointed up the fact that a liquid metal cooled reactor is "single-use" -- if you completely shut it down, the metal solidifies in the reactor! This definitely complicates your shutdown and refueling procedures. This may be one reason the Russians are retiring their "Alfas"... If they replace the reactor on the Karotechia boat, they might do so with a "natural circulation" PWR as in the US sub "Narwhal" (SSN-671). Under normal conditions, this type of reactor doesn't require the relatively noisy circulating pumps that other PWR designs do. (The SSN-21 "Seawolf" (the USN's second SSN of the name) uses this type of reactor, I believe.) But replacing a reactor is a nontrivial operation, requiring major yard facilities to make (and later reseal) a large opening in the pressure hull, and to handle heavy reactor vessels and other equipment! As far as I know, the USN has done it only once -- when they replaced the original sodium-cooled reactor of their first SSN "Seawolf" with a pressurized water reactor. Even refueling a submarine reactor is nontrivial, though not nearly the difficulty level of replacing one. The Karotechia may insist their new sub be refueled before they take delivery (and, after all, the Russians have the specialized yard facilities to do it), but it would cost them extra! More likely than really extensive reactor modifications are some detail improvements to some of the pumps and reduction gears, incorporating modern improvements to cut down on radiated noise. (Similar to what has already been done in the Sierra class SSNs -- although the Special K Victor III might not get quite the same degree of quieting -- there is less space in engineering for sound reduction and isolation....) Most of the Victor IIIs employ a rather unusual 8-bladed screw consisting of two tandem 4-bladed screws oriented 22.5 degrees apart and co-rotating. On the modernized Victor III, these would be replaced by a single 7 or 8 bladed screw (similar to that of the 688I boats but optimized to the Victor III hull form). The Victor III also mounts two small propulsion pods ("spinners") on the aft diving planes for low-speed operations. These would probably also be given quieter, redesigned screws. I really prefer this concept, with a modified Victor or other ex-Soviet sub, to the "U-Boat from Another Dimension"! (Sorry, MiB! Nice story, though...):) Some links for Russian subs: A Naval Shipbuilding Museum site with photos (many of them in color) of Soviet and Russian submarines: http:www.uss-salem.org/features/russia/submar.htm Nuclear Attack Submarines (SSN) Podvodnaya Lodka Atomnaya (PLA) (Submarine (Nuclear)): Project 627 (Kit) -- November Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/627.htm) The first class of Russian SSN. According to Tom Clancy and others, radiation shielding was inadequate. None still in service. Project 645 ZhMT -- November Variant (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/645.htm) One-of-a-kind trouble-plagued variant of the November class with 2 liquid-metal (lead-bismuth) cooled reactors. Scuttled off Novaya Zemlya after a serious reactor accident that killed 9 people. Project 671 (Yersky or Kefal) -- Victor I Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/671.htm) Project 671 RT -- Victor II Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/671rt.htm) Project 671 RTM (Shuka) -- Victor III Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/671rtm.htm) Type of SSN mentioned above, modified to possible Karotechia boat. Project 685 (Plavnik) -- Mike Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/685.htm) The titanium-hull SSN K-278 "Komsomolets" was the only boat of its class, and sank in the Barents Sea due to fire and flooding on 7 April 1989, in 1500 meters of water. Project 705 (Lira) -- Alfa Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/705.htm) Titanium-hull, high-speed SSN. The same class as the "Konavalev" in "Hunt for Red October". Project 885 -- Severodivisnk Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/885.htm) Brand-new class of Russian SSN, rumored to be even quieter than the US 688I boats and the RN Trafalgar class. Named for the city whose shipyard currently builds most Russian nuclear submarines. Configuration may be similar to the Russian SSN "Kaliningrad" (http://www.ussdevilfish.com/diag01b.htm) depicted in Michael DiMercurio's book "Voyage of the Devilfish". :) Project 945 (Mars) -- Sierra Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/945.htm) Rumored to be so quiet they cannot be detected by NATO's tracking system SOSUS. "Barracuda" of this class involved in 1992 collision with US sub "Baton Rouge". These boats have a titanium pressure hull and an operating depth of 950 meters has been reported. Project 971 (Shuka-B) -- Akula Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia.nfl/971.htm) NATO codename means "Shark" in Russian. (This was the point where NATO had gone all the way through the phonetic alphabet and had to think of something... Interestingly, "Akula" is the Russian designation for what we call the "Typhoon" class -- be careful you know which "Akula" you're talking about!) Russian press states this class can dive to 1 km, which may be and exaggeration, but other sources say "only" 900 meters... The Trident sub "Alabama" fought a couple of Akulas in the movie "Crimson Tide"! Nuclear Cruise Missile Submarines (SSGN) Podvodnaya Lodka Atomnaya Raketnaya Krylataya (PLARK) (Cruise Missile Submarine (Nuclear): Project 659 -- Echo I Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/659.htm) Project 661 (Anchar) -- Papa Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/661.htm) Twin-screw titanium hull SSGN -- fastest sub in the world until recently (some sources report "Seawolf" SSN-21 is now faster). My personal suggestion for Special K's sub. Project 670 A (Skat) -- Charlie I Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/670.htm) One boat of this class served in Indian Navy as "Chakra" for three years. Proposed second Indian SSGN "Chitra" would likely have been of this class. Project 670 M (Skat M) -- Charlie II Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/670m.htm) Slightly stretched (9m longer) version of Charlie class with improved missile system. Project 949 (Granit) -- Oscar I Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/949.htm) Large cruise missile sub carrying 24 missiles outside the pressure hull. Also known as the "Baton" ("loaf") class for reasons obvious when you see the boat. Project 949 A (Antey) -- Oscar II Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/949a.htm) Larger version of Oscar I (Carries the same number of missiles -- not sure why they needed the extra room...) Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines (SSBN) Podvodnaya Lodka Atomnaya Raketnaya Ballisticheskaya (PLARB) (Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarine): Project 658 -- Hotel Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/658.htm) All retired from service now. K-19 of this class suffered at least 2 major reactor accidents, killing at least 28 men, and was unofficially nicknamed "Hiroshima"! Project 667 A (Nalim, Navaga) -- Yankee Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/667.htm) Equivalent to the USN's Polaris boats. Project 667 B (Murena) -- Delta I Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/667b.htm) Developed from the Yankee class. Project 667 BD (Murena M) -- Delta II Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/667bd.htm) Lengthened version of Delta I to carry 4 more missiles. Project 667 BDR (Kal'mar) -- Delta III Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia.nfl/667bdr.htm) Have higher "turtle-deck" aft of sail than previous Delta versions (to carry the longer SS-N-18 missile tubes). Sail planes rotate to vertical for surfacing through ice -- can normally break through 0.9 m of ice, but can surface through 1.8 m ice in emergency. Test depth 580 m but reportedly operationally limited to 360 m. Many are being upgraded to effectively Delta IV standard. Project 667 BRDM (Delfin) -- Delta IV Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/667brdm.htm) Ultimate expansion of the original Yankee class design. Distinguished from Delta III by fewer limber holes in aft casing, and by towed array tube in trailing edge of upper rudder. On 7 December 1989, one of this class attempted to launch 16 missiles in rapid succession in the White Sea; third missile failed, 13 crewmen injured when it fell back. Another was damaged in 1993 in collision with US SSN "Grayling". Project 941 (Akula) -- Typhoon Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/941.htm) Biggest submarines in the world, with two main pressure hulls, two reactors, 20 missile tubes all forward of sail (only SSBN class to have this configuration -- easily identifiable!). Six built. Fictional Typhoon 7 -- "Krasny Oktober" ("Red October"), a stretched variant with silent propulsion system -- appeared in Tom Clancy's "Hunt for Red October". Nuclear Mini Subs: Project 1851 -- X-Ray Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/941.htm) Apparently intended for oceanographic work and/or special operations. Probably unarmed. Project 1910 -- Uniform Class (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/1910.htm) Apparently intended for research or special operations. Reportedly unarmed. Project 10831 -- apparently no NATO codename (http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/10831.htm) Apparently intended for research or deep sea salvage work. Reportedly unarmed. And that, I believe is enough for now (it's 2:30 AM in my time zone, I just noticed...):) Sorry to be so wordy... Michael theherald@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:04:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: Re: DG: Alzis on alt.horror.cthulhu > ALZIS - ON THE WINGS OF AN EAGLE - ""If I want him to remain alive until I > return, what is that to you?" (John 21:23) I rather like this explanation. Gets into the brand of religious- Apocalyptic stuff I kinda like. And herein we could have connections with the Order of the Sword of St. Jerome. BTW, speaking of Alzis, did anyone else think that the photographer on last night's X-Files was somewhat Alzis-like? Andrew D. Gable agable@falcon.lhup.edu I ask nothing. Is that so very much to ask? - The Tear Garden, "Crying from Outside" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:47:03 -0000 From: Ward Phil Subject: RE: DG: Alzis on alt.horror.cthulhu Was this a reply to something else posted to the list? I appear to be losing mail's here if it was.... bloody new email server... :( Phil > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew D. Gable [SMTP:agable@falcon.lhup.edu] > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 2:04 PM > To: Delta Green List > Subject: Re: DG: Alzis on alt.horror.cthulhu > > > > ALZIS - ON THE WINGS OF AN EAGLE - ""If I want him to remain alive > until I > > return, what is that to you?" (John 21:23) > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:32:54 -0500 From: Jeff Ewing Subject: DG: Smoking on east and west coasts. (Quoted from a post by Stephen Parks) Subject: Re: DG: Canadian Smoke Ah, smoking, how I loved it. Some reflections from a former user. >Well maybe, apparently there is a difference between (for example) the Marlboros you >can buy in Canada and the Marlboros you can buy in the States because of different >regulations on ingredients. However, I would imagine that the difference in the >second-hand aroma would be negligeable. Beg to differ. I used to smoke Rothman's, a brand I believe is very popular in Europe, and the Jolt Cola of cigarettes (all the nicotine, twice the tar), and people really noticed the difference. I've had bartenders start pouring water into their trashcans thinking that a carelessly disposed of butt had set some paper on fire when in fact it was the Rothman. This would probably count as a disadvantage in a role-playing game: smokes extremely noticeable cigarettes. Du Mauriers have produced a similar effect, and they and Export A are the packs with the little calendar inside: > - an American confused by people hauling out their pack of smokes and > opening it when asked about a specific date (many Canadian cigarette > packages, which are constructed differently from American ones, have > calendars printed on the inner packaging) I later took to smoking hand-rolled Drum, a Dutch product. The Drum lacks the chemicals which cause cigarettes to keep burning in an ash tray, and will go out if you don't keep puffing. Another bonus of hand-rolled: superior dosage control. You can roll a nice slim one while waiting for a bus, or 2-sheeter if you're sitting down to some serious drinking. What's really addictive about nicotine delivered by cigarettes is the incredibly precise dosage control you can achieve even with factory produced cigarettes. A cig can liven you up if you're logy, or calm you down if you're jittery. Interested parties should read _Cigarettes are Sublime_ (ISBN: 0822314010). As to smoking habits: I moved from California to New York, and the difference is really noticeable. In California it is all but illegal to smoke, at all, anywhere (I've shared the experience of having someone tell me, quite rudely, to put my cigarette out, while outside, in a stiff wind). In New York, by contrast, it seems everyone smokes. I'm always entertained when I see a clerk in a record store, for example, smoking behind the counter. One more thing, unrelated: It's far from my intention to restart the Desmond Humboldt argument, but I was thinking about this last week, and from a literary point of view, I think DH is fantastic. It's as if the racist fantasies of the midwestern neo-nazis have taken on a gruesome life of their own. Back to lurking on digest mode, Jeff Ewing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:53:17 -0000 From: Ward Phil Subject: RE: DG: Alzis on alt.horror.cthulhu Argh, drek I just realised by asking this I'm going to get hundreds of these.... Thanks to CO Christopher and Nightgaunt, I already have a copy, ta boys. Now I have to go and complain at my postmaster that mail is being lost... Those of you with submissions to the EH project better CC them to my home account, which is available as a mailto from the Emerald Hammer website, just in case I miss them. Phil > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew D. Gable [SMTP:agable@falcon.lhup.edu] > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 2:04 PM > To: Delta Green List > Subject: Re: DG: Alzis on alt.horror.cthulhu > > > > ALZIS - ON THE WINGS OF AN EAGLE - ""If I want him to remain alive > until I > > return, what is that to you?" (John 21:23) > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:16:40 -0500 From: Jason Hersey Subject: DG: Looking for feedback... Hiya. I'm un-lurking, or de-lurking, or whatever to see if I can get some feedback and ideas from all your DG geniuses. I'm startin' up a DG game, and one player suggested a background as a guinea pig in MKULTRA. SO this got me thinkin'... all sorts of potential here, even maybe making him a test subject in Sub-Projest BOUNCE. Basically, this player would be excellent to start out on the side of MJ-12, and gradually realizing the depth of what he's gotten into, eventually being recruited by DG as a double agent, or maybe just shot in the head by DG agents. Like I said, lots of potential here, but I've got so much stuff flying around in my head, (shans?) I can't quite decide where to go with the PC. Any suggestions? All ideas are heartily welcome... Oh yeah. Emerald Hammer kicks ass... if you SMELL WHAT THE SOCK IS COOKIN'... - J-Man ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:00:29 -0800 From: Christian Conkle Subject: DG: RE: Looking for feedback... There's a possible MKULTRA-Dreamlands connection by having the player's psyche suffer PTSD flashbacks, sending his fragile mind into the "imaginary" Dreamlands as a defense to block out the psycho-torture memories. You could use the Dreamlands as an analog of the real world, providing clues and hints. Sort of like the dream imagry of Brazil. The Dreamlands would be a symbolic sub-plot. This could drive the PC and the player crazy. "You're walking down the street, you stop at the newsstand and look at USA Today. There's an image of Senator Orrin Hatch, your mind flahses like a strobe, you grab your head and fall to your knees, reeling in pain. A few more strobing flashes and you're standing in a meadow. The wildflowers stretch around you like a Monet painting. Large hippo-like herbivores graze languidly in the field, their pink and purple skin seem somehow normal. Dark, ominous mountains rise to the East. The tallest, Mount Ereshigal, looms over you. You feel beckoned by some unknown and ancient desire. At its summit lies what you seek, though you must pass the Nightgaunts and defeat the Darklord Sattor, high priest of the Elder Council. One of the plump and idiotic grazers approaches you. It opens it's sickly puffy mouth, filled with the mind-numbing fodder of the field, 'Hey mac, you alright? Want me to call an ambulance or somethin?' You are once more on the busy city street." There's also the Manchurian Candidate situation, where the PC might unwittingly be a part of a CIA or MJ-12 conspiracy to assassinate someone. This would dovetail into a Fugitive scenario as the PC flees the authorities while searching for the one-armed man that programmed him. - ----------------------------------------------------- Christian Conkle Web Development Specialist Northwest Regional Educational Laboratory work: conklec@nwrel.org home: conkle@europa.com - ----------------------------------------------------- On Monday, January 25, 1999 11:17 AM, Jason Hersey [SMTP:jhersey@vt.edu] wrote: > Hiya. > > I'm un-lurking, or de-lurking, or whatever to see if I can get some > feedback and ideas from all your DG geniuses. I'm startin' up a DG game, > and one player suggested a background as a guinea pig in MKULTRA. SO this > got me thinkin'... all sorts of potential here, even maybe making him a > test subject in Sub-Projest BOUNCE. Basically, this player would be > excellent to start out on the side of MJ-12, and gradually realizing the > depth of what he's gotten into, eventually being recruited by DG as a > double agent, or maybe just shot in the head by DG agents. Like I said, > lots of potential here, but I've got so much stuff flying around in my > head, (shans?) I can't quite decide where to go with the PC. Any > suggestions? All ideas are heartily welcome... > > Oh yeah. Emerald Hammer kicks ass... if you SMELL WHAT THE SOCK IS > COOKIN'... > > - J-Man ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V1 #298 ********************************