From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #30 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Wednesday, August 11 1999 Volume 02 : Number 030 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:02:52 -0300 (ART) From: kranondp@usa.net Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green Eyes 1 On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 becole@juno.com wrote: Hello. > Is it even possible that you guys might consider publishing this hard > backed version of Delta Green and maybe throw in a couple EXTRA > sections.....say, DG Eyes Only Volumes 1 and 2? Wow! I do like the idea! Specially if volume 1 is included ;) Writing seriously, yeah, I would be interested on a hardcover reprint of DG (and I would be even more interested if new stuff is in it... isn't everyone going to be more interested???) Bruno Di Pentima. kranondp@usa.net Santa Fe - Argentina. "No está muerto lo que puede yacer eternamente, y con extraños evos puede morir hasta la muerte." -- Howard Phillips Lovecraft. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:06:18 -0000 From: "Crossingham, Adam" Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green Eyes 1 Dennis Detwiller writes: <<< How many people would be interested in a hard cover edition of DG? How much more would you be willing to pay for something like that, if at all? >>> Like the rest of the list: definitely interested. It would definitely fill the need-a-replacement-copy/buy-a-second-copy-for-collection/buy-everything-Paga n-prints niches quite well :) Price wise: I thought GBP 25 was too much for the hard cover CoC rules v5, as the softcover normally retailed at GBP 15. But then I was broke, and it was essentially the same as the softcover - other than the endpapers which were rather funky. That said the is usually a GBP 10 (or USD 16) difference between soft and hard covers in the UK, so perhaps it wasn't that extreme a difference. If a significant premium is going to be charged for hardcover (i.e. greater than USD 10) then perhaps the contents ought to reflect this as well - perhaps a factual revision of the occupation templates where necessary, inclusion of new skills from Countdown in templates, updating the history and timelines of DG, mythos events and world events, definitely an inclusion of a new mini-scenario or scenario ideas. Perhaps if Pagan used the hardcover as an exercise for the feasibility of a 2nd fully revised edition, the hardcover could be treated as edition 1.5? Perhaps the simplest solution would a new, hardcover only, cover illustration by Blair Reynolds. That should do the trick... - -- Adam Crossingham Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual and not necessarily the company. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:08:35 EDT From: ScottSaylo@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: DG: Delta Green Eyes 1 In a message dated 8/10/99 3:20:10 PM EST, yanasikt@superonline.com writes: << Although I'm going to buy Countdown, RoE, DT with the overseas cost added, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a second copy of DG in hardcover. >> It's not going to be "Perfect Bound" is it or like GDW did with Space:1889? The bindings came apart WAY TOO easily. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:09:39 EDT From: ScottSaylo@aol.com Subject: Re: SV: DG: Delta Green Eyes 1 In a message dated 8/10/99 3:38:12 PM EST, djuneau@io.com writes: << lves, baring their ichor-dripping fangs and uttering unearthly vocalisations... and once John got me past Dennis, there was worse awaiting in the Stygian vaults below. >> There's WORSE than Dennis??!!!!!!!!!!!!??????? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:23:17 GMT0BST From: Robert Thomas Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green Eyes 1 Hi all, > Phil A Posehn wrote: > > > > Most of the people I talked to like the Hard cover idea. The retailers > > havementioned that HCs tend to do best on new releases rather than > > reprints though. I can see the point. Your biggest fans already own soft > > cover. Would they buy a second copy in HC? > > Hell yes! I've done the same with several other game systems I own. In > Nomine, Rifts, GURPS, you name it. I had send overseas to get a > hard-cover copy of RuneQuest, even. Given the choice of HC over SC. I'll > buy HC every time. A great idea I've still got the third edition of Call of Cthulhu in Hardback from games workshop. It's survived everything I threw at it, and its neat to be able to roll dice on a hardback. What would be cool would be an embossed Delta on the cover :-) Well looks like we all survived the eclipse so far, was great to watch I must say if you ever get the chance do it. Rob "bumping into things" Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:23:40 -0500 (CDT) From: MSubias@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: DG: DG -- Why the Secrecy << >Say DG decided to open it all up to the public: >Cultist would be protected by freedom of religon laws, apart from direct >criminal activities (sacrifices, etc.) any interference from law enforcement or indignant citizens becomes a violation of civil rights and brings forth >litigation. Cultist would have much more leeway in their operations, and a >new weapon with which to attack enemies (litigation, that is). Here's my alternate scenario: Let's face it, the Mythos is pretty funky. Take five or six of your wilder conspiracy theories, toss them in a blender, and you might get something approaching the Mythos in sheer wildness. By the time your agent's been through a dozen missions, they may have run into fishmen living beneath the ocean (Deep Ones), aliens from Pluto backed by a top secret government agency (Greys/Mi-Go/MJ12), aliens from yet another planet who take control of people by flying into their heads (Insects from Shaggai), Nazis who control a worldwide network of hate groups and an army of zombies (Karotechia), strange cults whose magic REALLY works, and all the weirdness from the DG scenarios in the main book (I won't spoil them for others). <> >> Here's a few thoughts about taking your ideas to the next level. The time is not now, but the Endtimes (the 2030s, far future, next week-whatever you use). Things are getting a bit funky out there and people are taking notice. Natural (and unnatural) disasters are occuring. Monsters are being sighted by the mainstream population. Cults are forming everywhere, the greys come out of the closet for their final harvestings and so on. With this, DG can no longer stay in the shadows. They move their fight to the public. The people see them as possible saviors in this desperate time. The government assumes control of DG and gives them carte blanche to stop the Endtimes (they can't but nobody knows that for sure). Imagine a Gestapo-like DG with full funding and power running through the ruins of the apocalypse. Might make an interesting and fun campaign to end a DG campaign, a diversion to show the PCs why they fight, or just something with a different flavor for awhile. Any ideas? - - -Dave K While perhaps a bit unlikely, there still might be a DG/M-12 rivalry. Both organizations will claim that _they_ are the experts in dealing with the supernatural, and that they should control operations against the forces of darkness. Maybe they would fight each other on a bureaucratic level and/or try to sabotage each others ops, and fight on a PR level too. Maybe other LE agencies would demand that they have their own anti-supernatural arm, and jurisdictional fights could proliferate. Maybe differnt agencies would have jurisdiction over different threats, and this could prevent cooperation. "No, the presence of the liao drug makes it a DEA operation." "Sorry, but the Tcho-Tchos are clearly here illegally, so its an immigration issue." Etc, etc. I'm not sure that DG would get gestapo like power until things got so bad that such power might not do all that much good anyway. Since the mythos is generally poorly understood, and since political resistance to a police state would be pretty great at first, the public would have to beleve strongly in the supernatural threat before DG could get such legal power. It would also have to fight other LE agencies in order to become the undisputed leader in the anti-mythos fight. Until the mythos was clearly understood by most people to be both a cohesive phenomenon and a major threat there would probably still be no general understanding that mythos is, and the media and the population would constantly be trying to learn about the various weird events and understand which "really" represent a threat, and which can be reasoned with or managed, and which might be useful or friendly. This would spread mythos knowledge and drive down SAN, and corrupt those who are trying to study rising mythos forces. I can see the cover of Time or National Geographic -- "The Deep Ones: Their fascinating underseas civilization," or "The Tcho- Tchos: Asia's Misunderstood People." Interest from antiquarians, historians, etc, would lead to the reprinting of various tomes, and a flood of scholarly articles on their background and contents. Specialized college classes would arise based on mythos themes. People who feel helpless would try to master spells and the ignorant and desparate would contact the GOOs, ot their minions. Many people terrified of death would learn of the hope for immortality of one sort or another through the mythos, and this would drive them to delve into its secrets. There would be an explosion of interest in occult artifacts, and some individuals would comb the globe looking for them. Some would be sold on E- Bay. There would be on-line chat groups, lists, and message boards where people could share mythos information. One problem from a legal standpoint would be knowing who were cultists (since many in the new cult explosion would still keep their practices quiet), and who were just cultist wannabees, with no real mythos knowledge or power. Also, some cultish crime would be hard to arrest or convict for ("Can you prove _my_ client summoned the byakhee that went on that killing spree?" Can you prove that it was summoned at all, by anyone, and that it did not simply arrive on its own?) Can you arrest a group of amateur actors who are just putting on a "harmless" play about an imaginarly place called Carcosa? There would also be lots of first amendment issues about stopping people from spreading mythos information. Maybe a wave of vigalante witch trials would start, based on hysteria and a desire to do good and save the human race. Maybe some of these vigalante groups would go after the wrong targets, possibly exploited by serpent men or cult leaders who want to eliminate rivals. Maybe some of these acts of murder could be harnessed and used as sacrifices, and actually summon GOOs. Maybe DG would waste more time trying to find out if such vigalante activity was actually carried out in response to a genuine mythos threat. I'll be going on vacation for a couple of weeks. I'll unsubscribe while I'm gone. Marco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:23:15 +0100 (BST) From: "David.Clements" Subject: DG: Odd case with a definite DG smell to it A bizarre story harking back to a mysterious murder in WW2 was reported today in the Electronic Telegraph. All sorts of possibilities for DG here. Enjoy! (see www.telegraph.co.uk) Dave Macabre message reopens wartime murder mystery By Maurice Weaver MEMORIES of a macabre wartime murder have been revived by the appearance of graffiti on the plinth of an 18th century obelisk that tops Wychbury Hill on Lord Cobham's Hagley Hall estate in Worcestershire. The message, in tall white letters, asks: "Who put Bella in the witch elm?" Only a few have recognised the significance of the question, among them Lord Cobham, and all say they are baffled about who can have written it, and why, so long after the events. It refers to the killing of a woman, known only as Bella, which gave rise in 1943 to stories of witchcraft and espionage sufficiently eerie to distract the nation's attention even from the horrors of war. In the summer of that year, four young men from the nearby town of Stourbridge, were on an illicit rabbit and birds-nesting expedition in Hagley Wood when one of them clambered into a wych-hazel (sometimes wrongly called a wych-elm). Hidden among its twisted branches he found the skeletal remains of a woman aged about 35. Not realising at first what it was, he pulled out the skull, still with hair and teeth, and gave himself a nasty shock. They all ran for their lives. Prof James Webster, then the head of the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory in the West Midlands, estimated that the body had been hidden in the tree for two years. The skeleton was complete but for a hand which was found some distance away, a fact which led Prof Margaret Murray, of University College, London, who was one of several experts to take an interest in the case, to suggest that it was a classic sign of a black magic execution. The unidentified woman was dubbed Bella, short for bella donna, on the premise that she might have been a witch. Popular interest was intensified by the appearance at the time of graffiti chalked all over the region. It asked: "Who put Bella in the wych-elm?" - precisely the same message (spelling apart) as that now on the obelisk. But the mystery then took an even stranger turn. The Wolverhampton Express and Star's columnist, Lt Col Wilfred Byford-Jones, received a letter from a woman calling herself Anna saying that she had information about the murder. She told the police that in 1941 a spy ring was operating in the West Midlands providing information for the Luftwaffe on the location of munitions factories. It involved a British officer who sold the information to a Dutch contact, she said. The Dutchman, in turn, passed it on to a spy, a foreign trapeze artist appearing at local music halls who acted as a conduit to the Germans. The murder victim, the police were told, was a woman who had become marginally involved in these activities and was killed by the Dutchman and the trapeze artist because she knew too much. Anna named the traitorous officer but he was discovered to have died in a mental asylum in 1942. Col Byford-Jones subsequently wrote: "Other facts were also verified but the Dutchman could not be found. It is impossible for me to say if the police ever discovered the whereabouts of the trapeze artist but MI5 was brought into the case." West Mercia Police have resurrected their file. A spokesman said: "The identity of the murder victim and the killer remains unknown. We have had many offers of help down the years, all of which have been followed up without result." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:47:45 -0500 From: "Shane Ivey" Subject: DG: RE: Dark Theaters Binding "Anyhow, Mr. Glancy wants to switch printers to the company who's representative at GenCon was "stacked like a goddess." So, whine about the bindings and give him an excuse." Stacked like a goddess? What, she was 50 feet around and full of pustules and writhing feelers? I always did think Glancy was a little tetched. SHANE IVEY This week at www.zealot.com: 6th Sense, the latest Black Company book, 20 Years in Comics, and more on The Lord of the Rings! Zealot: Sci-Fi and Fantasy Fun ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:56:47 +0200 From: Juergen Hubert Subject: Re: DG: DG -- Why the Secrecy > > > Here's a few thoughts about taking your ideas to the next level. The > time is not now, but the Endtimes (the 2030s, far future, next week-whatever > you use). Things are getting a bit funky out there and people are taking > notice. Natural (and unnatural) disasters are occuring. Monsters are being > sighted by the mainstream population. Cults are forming everywhere, the > greys come out of the closet for their final harvestings and so on. > With this, DG can no longer stay in the shadows. They move their fight > to the public. The people see them as possible saviors in this desperate > time. The government assumes control of DG and gives them carte blanche to > stop the Endtimes (they can't but nobody knows that for sure). Imagine a > Gestapo-like DG with full funding and power running through the ruins of the > apocalypse. Might make an interesting and fun campaign to end a DG campaign, > a diversion to show the PCs why they fight, or just something with a > different flavor for awhile. Any ideas? Here is an idea for starting the End Times that I've toyed with: Let a Seed of Azatoth explode the Dreamlands' Moon. According to the Guide to the Dreamlands (forgot the exact title), this means that everyone in the waking world looses 1D10/1D100 Sanity points. Ooops. Ive done some calculations, and this means that more than half of the world's (human) population goes insane, and about 25% permanently so. This should cause the collapse of most of civilization, and soften up humanity for future blows... And another idea, which was inspired by that Cthulhu/Neon Genesis Evangelion crossover that someone on this list recommended ( http://www.uh.edu/~rpm/eva/index2.html ): When the public becomes aware of Mythos entities, people will want to attach names to them. But the governments in the know probably won't want to use their real names(Cthulhu, Mi-Go, Byakee) in public - they just sound too alien - or too mystic. Better to give them humanized codenames or aliases - that will make them seem less horrifying to those humans that haven't actually encountered them yet. The names used in the crossover are: Atlach-Nacha: Matriel, Ungoliant Byakee : Cherubim Rhan-Tegoth: Amaliel, Kanser Ithaqua : Salgiel Ghatanothoa : Rahab, Medusa Hastur : Baraquiel The stories also might provide further inspirations for an End Times scenario (even though the GOO bodycount is fairly high...), and as a plus, Nyarlathothep makes a guest star appearance as a piano player... - - Juergen Hubert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:56:41 EDT From: ScottSaylo@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: Dark Theaters Binding In a message dated 8/11/99 11:51:16 AM EST, sivey@zealot.com writes: << Stacked like a goddess? What, she was 50 feet around and full of pustules and writhing feelers? I always did think Glancy was a little tetched. >> Or dressed in Chinese robes making sweet simpering sounds behind a silk fan? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:33:43 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: DG -- Why the Secrecy In a message dated 8/11/99 10:31:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MSubias@ix.netcom.com writes: << While perhaps a bit unlikely, there still might be a DG/M-12 rivalry. Both organizations will claim that _they_ are the experts in dealing with the supernatural, and that they should control operations against the forces of darkness. Maybe they would fight each other on a bureaucratic level and/or try to sabotage each others ops, and fight on a PR level too. Maybe other LE agencies would demand that they have their own anti-supernatural arm, and jurisdictional fights could proliferate. Maybe differnt agencies would have jurisdiction over different threats, and this could prevent cooperation. "No, the presence of the liao drug makes it a DEA operation." "Sorry, but the Tcho-Tchos are clearly here illegally, so its an immigration issue." Etc, etc. >>> By the time that all this came to pass in the public mind, I figure MJ would have been exposed by its Grey patrons to the public. With the Endtimes approaching, the Greys would show up in their ships with a message to the world about how they have tried to aid mankind but things are beyond their control. They would have a shopping list of people they wanted to save from destruction and after that whoever they can ferry off in the time remaining. These would disappear to Yuggoth, Mars or wherever the Greys could tuck them away. To get maximium effect at this time, they would play up the panic and disclose how MJ kept everybody in the datk so the Greys couldn't "beneviolently" do more. MJ gets the lynch mob and the Greys get thousands of refugees to pick and choose from. Remnants of MJ would probably go underground and MJ and DG could do the old switch-a-roo in the Government structure. Also by the time this part of the Endtimes is reached, jurisdiction would not be much of a problem. The time I'm talking about is beyond busting up Liao drug rings. I'm talking about Deep Ones invading New York and Ryleh rising. This would be open warfare. Everybody would be stretched to the limit to hold back these forces and would welcome any assistance. Some petty rivalries might still exist at a local level but every warm body in the trenches would be generally welcomed. There wouldn't be enough time from the onset to form different branches of anti-supernatural forces. That's where DG would fit in nicely. They come out of the shadows with A Cell's files and their knowledge and step in, assigned to units at the front and policy-makers in the rear. Probably they would set up some sort of training program to replace losses but as things advance this would fall into a week or two familiarity training and off to the front. Eventually it will be the elderly and children attending. Look at the fall of Nazi Germany to see the desperation that would be undertaken to hold out one more day. <<< I'm not sure that DG would get gestapo like power until things got so bad that such power might not do all that much good anyway. Since the mythos is generally poorly understood, and since political resistance to a police state would be pretty great at first, the public would have to beleve strongly in the supernatural threat before DG could get such legal power. It would also have to fight other LE agencies in order to become the undisputed leader in the anti-mythos fight.>>> Again, as above, by the time DG could step out of the shadows things would be this bad. They might make their presence known to key members of the governments when Ghroth was sited or a strange isle in the South Pacific rose and more public as things degenerated. Civil liberties will be the last thing on anyone's mind at this point. <<< Until the mythos was clearly understood by most people to be both a cohesive phenomenon and a major threat there would probably still be no general understanding that mythos is, and the media and the population would constantly be trying to learn about the various weird events and understand which "really" represent a threat, and which can be reasoned with or managed, and which might be useful or friendly. This would spread mythos knowledge and drive down SAN, and corrupt those who are trying to study rising mythos forces. I can see the cover of Time or National Geographic -- "The Deep Ones: Their fascinating underseas civilization," or "The Tcho- Tchos: Asia's Misunderstood People." Interest from antiquarians, historians, etc, would lead to the reprinting of various tomes, and a flood of scholarly articles on their background and contents. Specialized college classes would arise based on mythos themes. People who feel helpless would try to master spells and the ignorant and desparate would contact the GOOs, ot their minions. Many people terrified of death would learn of the hope for immortality of one sort or another through the mythos, and this would drive them to delve into its secrets. There would be an explosion of interest in occult artifacts, and some individuals would comb the globe looking for them. Some would be sold on E- Bay. There would be on-line chat groups, lists, and message boards where people could share mythos information.>>> While some of this may come to pass in the early days of the Endtimes, it wouldn't take long for all but the most deluded to see the threat. You make the assumption that the Tcho-Tcho would want to be represented this way or the DO would allow such a thing. With the Endtimes here, these groups have their own parts to play. Some individuals might play up some PR value but overall I'd say not. Tcho-Tcho would be reveling and eating (you know what) and having the time of their lives as their gods returned. DO would be carrying out the machinations of Great Cthulhu, destroying mankind, capturing breeding stock and so on. <<< One problem from a legal standpoint would be knowing who were cultists (since many in the new cult explosion would still keep their practices quiet), and who were just cultist wannabees, with no real mythos knowledge or power. Also, some cultish crime would be hard to arrest or convict for ("Can you prove _my_ client summoned the byakhee that went on that killing spree?" Can you prove that it was summoned at all, by anyone, and that it did not simply arrive on its own?) Can you arrest a group of amateur actors who are just putting on a "harmless" play about an imaginarly place called Carcosa? There would also be lots of first amendment issues about stopping people from spreading mythos information.>>> Who is who is a problem DG faces even now. That's why they would gain gestapo-like powers. There is no time for legal niceties. Any possible mythos force would recieve a door kicked in at 3 AM and be hauled off to an internment camp. <<< Maybe a wave of vigalante witch trials would start, based on hysteria and a desire to do good and save the human race. Maybe some of these vigalante groups would go after the wrong targets, possibly exploited by serpent men or cult leaders who want to eliminate rivals. Maybe some of these acts of murder could be harnessed and used as sacrifices, and actually summon GOOs. Maybe DG would waste more time trying to find out if such vigalante activity was actually carried out in response to a genuine mythos threat. >> That I agree with totally. As things fall apart more and more, these acts of desperation would be carried out.even more frequently. "People's Courts" and the like would become the norm. Nobody could stop them and DG would just show up whenever to see if any intel could be gathered. Anyway, just some rants... - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:55:13 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: DG -- Why the Secrecy In a message dated 8/9/99 2:49:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << > Say DG decided to open it all up to the public: > > Cultist would be protected by freedom of religon laws, apart from direct > criminal activities (sacrifices, etc.) any interference from law enforcement > or indignant citizens becomes a violation of civil rights and brings forth > litigation. May I quote from the book I learned constitutional law from while being on law school: "Freedom of religion does NOT give you the right to ritually kill toddlers in public places like your town's mall. Even the freedom of religion is limited by other peoples' basic laws like the integrity of the body.">>> I agree but you make the assumption that all mythos cults carry out these practices. Many do and these are generally what tips them off to groups like DG. What about the ones who don't but just fester there with chantings and such? Are these groups a threat because of their association? While I say yes personally, in the eyes of the public and the law are they? A good example would be the cult from TUO's Cold War scenario. Most of the members were part of what they believed to be a New Age group. While certain illegalities unfold over the course of the scenario (or there wouldn't have been one :) ) would (or could) DG have acted against them proactively on just their associations. Many of the members weren't even 0 SAN madmen. Similar groups exist and what can DG really do (besides illegally kill them) against them and what protections do they deserve? That also assumes that many of these groups would even seek that kind of publicity. I would figure cultists like ole Castro that spill all the beans are pretty rare. Most of the really established groups have already committed many crimes so freedom of religion won't protect them anyway. They also want to keep a secret their group as much as possible. Most of these cultists are fanatics. most would die before spilling any secrets. How many witches went to the stake with nothing more revealed than some strange chantings on their lips as they burned? [snip] > For everyone who sees the threat, there will be 2 people who feel that the > Mythos is just misunderstood, and that things can be resolved by > negotiations. Yes, there would be people waving flags, shouting "Save the Dholes." >> While some might take some sort of negotiations sort of pose to the threat, what could they really achieve? Protests occur all the time and we are still destroying the world around us. Those that negotiated would just end up being dinner or a poor sucker caught in the crossfire. This also assumes that with public disclosure the masses could attempt these feats of summoning/negotiation/ect. There aren't that many mythos books and the like lying around to summon DO or dholes or whatever for negotiations/study/ect. Once public disclosure happened, there would be even less. Every major player in the DG uniis hoarding that kind of knowledge for themselves and the scramble would become even greater with public knowledge. many would be classified Top Secret and even with leaks, not much would get out. Further mastery of such works poses another problem if you get past the basic translation difficulties. Disclosure doesn't mean a mythos-armed or even mythos-friendly environment, it just changes the game somewhat. Eventually that disclosure is going to come. - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:17:17 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: DG -- Why the Secrecy USFORREC1@aol.com schrieb: [snip] > May I quote from the book I learned constitutional law from while being on > law > school: > > "Freedom of religion does NOT give you the right to ritually kill toddlers > in > public places like your town's mall. Even the freedom of religion is limited > by > other peoples' basic laws like the integrity of the body.">>> > > I agree but you make the assumption that all mythos cults carry out these > practices. Many do and these are generally what tips them off to groups like > DG. What about the ones who don't but just fester there with chantings and > such? Are these groups a threat because of their association? While I say > yes personally, in the eyes of the public and the law are they? [snip] Good point. But just consider the treatment of the church of scientology by the German legal system and -last not least- our politicians and agencies. This may be an example of how mythos-cults might be treated: Some courts have ruled that Scientology is NO church or faith in the way it is understood by our constitution. Most of these decisions were made in trials concerning the question of the amount of taxes that scientology has to pay, since churches and organised religious groups may pay less. According to the judges the church of scientology is no non-profit-organization with "religious goals", but an organization whose goal is making huge profits. The problem in Germany is that, while every religion, faith, church, etc. is or should be protected by the constitution, the mainstream churches - the Protestant and the Roman-Catholic church- are very influential. Although it should not be that way -from a constitutional point of view- church and public institutions are still mixed in some points. For example: The Catholic and the Protestant churches are institutions/organizations that legally belong to the field of public law and therefore are somehow public/governmental institutions [ It's very complicated, I tried to simplify this thing ]. Another example: There's religious education taking place in public schools with different classes for the Catholics and protestants. And these classes are paid by the public, therefore by everyone in Germany, even Atheists, Hindus and members of the Esoteric Order of Dagon. And there institutions whose job it is to watch sects. These institutions are lead and organized by these two churches and are funded by both public money and money of the churches. Thus mythos cults would not have it easy in Germany. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:47:33 -0700 From: Phil A Posehn Subject: Re: DG: DG -- Why the Secrecy Wow! It sounds as though ANY religion outside of the mainstream has it rough in Germany. Then again Europe has several centuries more tradition to give the whole thing inertia. I'd be interested in comparative posts on the rights of fringe religions in other countries compared to the US. In particular, How do people like the Theosophists and the Wiccans fare there? How about Santaria? These strike me as good indicators of how a Mythos sect that wasn't into ritual sacrifice would be treated. Phil Posehn On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:17:17 +0200 EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) writes: >USFORREC1@aol.com schrieb: >[snip] >> May I quote from the book I learned constitutional law from while >being on >> law >> school: >> >> "Freedom of religion does NOT give you the right to ritually kill >toddlers >> in >> public places like your town's mall. Even the freedom of religion >is limited >> by >> other peoples' basic laws like the integrity of the body.">>> >> >> I agree but you make the assumption that all mythos cults carry >out these >> practices. Many do and these are generally what tips them off to >groups like >> DG. What about the ones who don't but just fester there with >chantings and >> such? Are these groups a threat because of their association? >While I say >> yes personally, in the eyes of the public and the law are they? >[snip] > >Good point. But just consider the treatment of the church of >scientology by the >German legal system and -last not least- our politicians and agencies. >This may >be an example of how mythos-cults might be treated: > >Some courts have ruled that Scientology is NO church or faith in the >way it is >understood by our constitution. Most of these decisions were made in >trials >concerning the question of the amount of taxes that scientology has to >pay, since >churches and organised religious groups may pay less. According to the >judges the >church of scientology is no non-profit-organization with "religious >goals", but >an organization whose goal is making huge profits. > >The problem in Germany is that, while every religion, faith, church, >etc. is >or should be protected by the constitution, the mainstream churches - >the >Protestant and the Roman-Catholic church- are very influential. >Although it should not be that way -from a constitutional point of >view- church >and public institutions are still mixed in some points. For example: >The Catholic >and the Protestant churches are institutions/organizations that >legally belong to >the field of public law and therefore are somehow public/governmental >institutions [ It's very complicated, I tried to simplify this thing >]. >Another example: There's religious education taking place in public >schools with >different classes for the Catholics and protestants. And these classes >are paid >by the public, therefore by everyone in Germany, even Atheists, Hindus >and >members of the Esoteric Order of Dagon. >And there institutions whose job it is to watch sects. These >institutions are >lead and organized by these two churches and are funded by both public >money and >money of the churches. >Thus mythos cults would not have it easy in Germany. > >ECKHARD > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:31:12 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: DG -- Why the Secrecy Greetings. Some interesting insights in the German Religious issues in Eckhard's post. As it would be nice to off-set the Americanocentric status of the list, here' some more on Euro-faith ;> >The problem in Germany is that, while every religion, faith, church, etc. is >or should be protected by the constitution, the mainstream churches - the >Protestant and the Roman-Catholic church- are very influential. Same her in Italy - but we have only Roman Catholic, protestant denominations being the absolute minority. >Although it should not be that way -from a constitutional point of view- church >and public institutions are still mixed in some points. For example: The Catholic >and the Protestant churches are institutions/organizations that legally belong to >the field of public law and therefore are somehow public/governmental >institutions [ It's very complicated, I tried to simplify this thing ]. Again, idem. A few days back I posted about the guy that swindled a lot of people passing himself off as a Bishop. The thing is getting pretty fuzzy, now, as he falls under both Italian Law and Canonical Right - the difference being that the canonical Tribunal would probably let him off the hook with some kind of penance, while the Italian Law would put him in the can. The process - if it ever comes to something - will be long and confused. >Another example: There's religious education taking place in public schools with >different classes for the Catholics and protestants. And these classes are paid >by the public, therefore by everyone in Germany, even Atheists, Hindus and >members of the Esoteric Order of Dagon. Here we begin to differ. According to the old Concordate, _all_ secondary and high schools (public and state) are to provide one weekly hour of "religios education". As it can be imagined, the topic heated up through the years, as this could be interpreted (and was originally intended as) a form of indoctrination. Currently, this is the state of the things . one hour is provided as "cultural discussion of religious topics" - it can be argued (and only a fool would deny it) that it's pretty hard to understand things like Reinassence art or Dante's "Commedia" - madatory subjects for Italian students - without at least a basic knowledge of the Catholic tenements. For the same reason, a working knowledge of classical philosophy is needed to understand classical art and lit., and nobody complains (but the students) . despite the above mentioned "cultural bias" of the couses, parents can still ask for their sons to be excluded from these classes (silly, IMHO). The kids that do not follow the religion hour, are generally given an alternate subject (computer use, a second foreign language etc). In other words, if the old system could lead to indoctrination, the new one might as well favour non-catholics by giving them an edge in some pretty nifty subjects. The question is far from being solved, and much more pressing problems are currently afflicting Italian Education (starting with the Ministry of Education's Head) [personal memories - the religion hour when I was in high school was lots of fun; the only two regulars were (ironically) the only two openly agnostic students in the class. All the other guys availed themselves of the exclusion bit and used the hour to study/do homeworks/get drunk and subsequently kicked out of school...] It must also be noted that the introduction of more general religios topics in the one hour/week course has been proposed and generally rejected; the reasons offered were . teachers lacking the knowledge to tackle Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist or whatever culture . hordes of bigots writing fiery letters to almost everybody (from the Head of State down to the sunday paper) >And there institutions whose job it is to watch sects. These institutions are >lead and organized by these two churches and are funded by both public money and >money of the churches. >Thus mythos cults would not have it easy in Germany. It depends. The Italian Center for the Study of New Religions - about which I write often - has been generally attacked because of its easy attitude towards sects and minor groups. The fact that they are financed by the Church does not automatically mean that they are witch-hunters (despite what the Albino Fleabag would have us thinking) and they might as well go for a soft approach. As long as a religion is legit and does not infringe the law, there's no reason why it should be attacked or exposed. So, cautious cultists might thrive. [and they do in Italy - see my way old post about Damanhur] And here I stop. More (maybe) later. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #30 *******************************