From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #33 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Friday, August 13 1999 Volume 02 : Number 033 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 03:54:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Tenebrous Technologies Subject: Re: DG: Ras Tafari I think the main thing to consider when handling any Rastafarian substances is to consider them all Highly Salasi. They could go up in a cloud of bong smoke at any moment careful all. your friends at Tenebrous Technologies, +_+_+_+_+_+_+ Tenebrous Technologies- 'What we are up to is none of your business' A tradition in Guile, Deceit and Treachery since 1997 Matt Cowger, CEO tenebrae@earthling.net http://home.gvi.net/~tenebrae Vox: (###)###-##### +_+_+_+_+_+_+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:01:56 GMT From: "Fco. Javier Rubio" Subject: DG: Basque rugby and Juanez At 09:08 13/08/99 +0100, Ward Phil wrote: >This might amuse those of us who play ball games without all >the padding, the others might find it amusing to set DG agents >in the middle of this game and watch them look for crazed cultist >conspirators where nothing is happening... > >Is that a kennedy, I've lost my slang notes :( > >Phil W ---Accepting the fact it's a curious msg, PLUS considering it a HOAX as i live in Bilbao (Basque Country) and have been playing rugby myself for some time so i usually keep myself to the date w/ the news and never heard of this stuff, i MUST add all that stuff 'bout ETA, the names, the "Juanez" (????) (ETA specialty???) and so on are ABSOLUTELY false. I do not know where have you got this info mate but it is not more than rubbish. >> Spanish authorities, investigating the incidents found that: >> 1. Abrazu was targeted because he had been "seeing" (euphemism) Inja ---INJA is neither a Basque nor a Spanish name. >> Felipe >> de Compostilla ... ---Noone in ETA's charge is (or would be) named "Felipe de Compostilla" (In fact, i think noone in this whole country would be named "Felipe de Compostilla"). >>(the ETA bosses daughter (ETA being the Basque >> extremists), the year before while he played for Santander in Spain. She >> was up the duff. >> 2. The knife wound was administered by a stretcher assistant, the knife >> used >> is an ETA speciality called a "Juanez", where the blade is intended to >> break >> inside the wound. ---This is just stupid. Attributing this "specialty" to ETA is stupid, attributing something called "Juanez" to ETA is even more stupid (as they would use Basque names do not you think?). ---Thanks, had to clear up this point. Green-tings :) , [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Fco. Javier Rubio [fjrubio@logimatica.com] __Logimática__ [http://www.logimatica.com] Asesoría Informática Integral Ramón y Cajal, 39, 1º - dpto. 9 Servicios Telemáticos 48014 Bilbao Estrategias de Red Tel.- +34/94.474.57.28 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:19:44 +0100 From: Ward Phil Subject: DG: RE: EMERALD HAMMER QUESTION I forget to Mention Ayes to the Right: MYTHOS COMPLIANT. Phil > -----Original Message----- > From: The Man in Black [SMTP:mib@cyberspace.org] > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 1999 6:34 AM > To: Delta Green List > Subject: DG: EMERALD HAMMER QUESTION > > Is EMERALD HAMMER Mythos Compliant, or is it Mythos Defiant? ************************************************************* This email is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. Sony cannot accept liability for statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not made on behalf of Sony. ************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 99 11:44:40 +0100 From: Peter Devlin Subject: DG: Eclipse Music Festivals To pick up on that message regards opera singers in Romania during the recent eclipse. In Cornwall there was a large dance music festival (trance / house / techno) held to celebrate the eclipse. This kind of thing isn't uncommon... IIRC about 3 years ago I reckon that I missed a good live concert, having only found out about it in retrospect. Jean Michel Jarre played a gig at Chichen Itza (or was it Macchu Picchu? duh?!) timed to coincide with an eclipse. Two weeks out there, including all transport and gig tickets, went for a mere $1200 equivalent here in the UK. (For the uninformed M. Jarre is an obnoxious modern French composer person who really knows how to milk good tunes to death. However, he does do a good show.) Again IIRC this coincided with the successful conclusion of the Peruvian Govt. project to "light" Macchu Picchu at nighttime in tasteful, tourist-pleasing fashion. The guy they drafted in to do that job was a Chinese lighting expert who uses feng-sheui rules for his lighting creations. He's done almost every top-class hotel, gallery and tourist attraction on Earth. Now, how about that for a setting for a DG op? A major archaeological site from a vanished culture miles from civilisation, an eclipse, a culture obsessed with calendars, a mysterious Oriental doing the lighting and a mildly insane French composer as the star attraction. Almost too good to be true. Cheers :-) --> :-0 Peter Devlin Bell, Book and Candle - http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns.html The South Side - http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/lovecraft/411/south/ Email - pdevlin@scotsys.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:17:09 -0400 From: Steven Kaye Subject: DG: Greys in the Balkans? This is something that was forwarded to the nettime-l mailing list. If Keepers can't think of something to do with this, they're not even trying. Steven - ---------- > ----- Forwarded message from dragan ----- > >>From owner-inura@YORKU.CA Wed Aug 11 00:05:18 1999 > > The Independent Aug 10, 1999. > > Aliens are in control of Blair, say Serb psychics > > By Bojan Toncic in Belgrade > > The exhausted citizenry of Serbia, bent double by war, poverty and > isolation and short of news they can trust, are swallowing, not bread, > but stories from the "other side". > > But in traumatised Serbia the "other side" does not mean the Nato > states. The effects of war appear to have awakened a massive interest > in the world of the paranormal here. It is met by a range of new > magazines, books and newspapers covering a world where alien creatures > have control over Tony Blair and the US army is deploying squads of > witches in a war of magic against Serbia. > > Magazines such as Zona Sumraka (The Twilight Zone), Dosije X (X Files), > Cudo (Miracle), Trece Oko (The Third Eye) and Fenomeni (Phenomena) have > sprung up in the past two months. They offer escape to Serbs desperate > to find relief from their grim surroundings. > > The magazines appear to be the descendants of publications that > specialised in lonely hearts, advice columns and romances. These > progressed, via horoscopes and articles on how to match your wardrobe > to your star sign, into a media twilight zone. > > Many articles try to find spiritual rationales for the troubles that > have befallen Serbia in recent months. In a lengthy article for the > monthly Cudo, analyst Milan Vidojevic explains how the clandestine > "Order of the Fourth Reich" is creating a new world order on behalf of > Lucifer. Tellingly, the Order is being opposed only by the Chinese and > Serbian governments. > > Meanwhile Dr Todor Jovanovic tells Dosije X to beware the > extra-terrestrials who have recently arrived on earth. They "radiate > something diabolical, evil, poisonous." They have a hold over the > brains of Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Nato's Javier Solana and other > Western leaders, he writes. > > "If one were to switch off the impulses radiated at the US president by > the extra-terrestrials," Jovanovic says, "only a sax player would > remain," while of his secretary of state, Madeleine Albright, only "an > elderly lady without ambitions". > > Other stories seem to feed off the Serbian preoccupation with history > and the traditional view that the country always has, and always will, > stand alone against a host of enemies. > > Just as the regime's propaganda portrays Nato as a loser in the war > with Serbia, so too the extra-terrestrials miscalculated when they > tangled with the Serbs. According to Jovanovic, the alien invaders have > "wisely concluded that Serbia is crucial". It was why they have planned > to "break" Serbia. > > It seems the aliens are no mere arrivistes either. Para-psychologist > Milorad Tomic claims that aliens have been plotting for 50 years to do > down Serbia, signing a secret deal with former Communist leader Tito. > An agreement was reached to allow bases to be set up on Yugoslavian > territory in 1945. > > To no one's surprise the aliens opted for Kosovo, where unusually > strong "geomagnetic forces" make the province perfect for aliens, says > Tomic, who claims to be a reincarnation of Nikola Tesla, the famous > turn-of-the-century Yugoslavian scientist and associate of US inventor > Thomas Edison. > > Geomagnetic forces or not, Serbia is ready. According to Spasoje > Vlajic, writing in Cudo, the Yugoslavian army has set up a special > squad - the secretive para-psychology Unit 69 - to confront the black > magic forces deployed by the US army. Vlajic, who played a key role, he > says, in setting up the unit for the Yugoslavian general staff, warns > his readers that "voodoo warriors and witches are already among US > troops in Kosovo". > > Vlajic cites an American magazine called The Military Review, and says > US warlocks and witches trained at a secret base in Texas for thei > mission in Kosovo - which is to draw out and defeat the Serbian > anti-magic Unit 69. The commander of the American unit is one Mary > Palmer, a member of the US army military police, he adds > authoritatively. > > Since the war, dozens of Serbian "clairvoyants" and "paranormal > experts" have stepped forward to join these publications, ready to give > guidance of a kind to their bewildered readers as they struggle to find > their bearings after 72 days of Nato bombing. > > According to Dr Geoffrey Scobie, senior psychologist at the University > of Glasgow, these current fixations betray serious emotional and > identity problems in contemporary Serbian society. "People's belief in > the paranormal increases when they lose confidence in material things," > he says. "Traditional religious beliefs are not enough and so the > paranormal is pursued to meet their need to believe in something." > > Defeat for Nato features highly in many of the specialist publications > now on sale in the Belgrade kiosks. The magazine Trece Oko predicts > that domestic political conditions in alliance member states will > deteriorate steadily, forcing Nato to withdraw by "by the end of this > year, or by June 2000 at the latest". > > Many expect Wednesday's solar eclipse to herald new troubles for the > non-Russian K-FOR soldiers. Most troubling for Nato, however, will be > the appearance of a Danube version of the Loch Ness monster - "Danube > Nessi" - which was recently spotted by fisherman Milan Savin swimming > by the destroyed bridges at Novi Sad. > > Savin reports that Danube Nessi used to live in a tunnel below the > Danube and the city's historic Varadin Fortress, but the Nato bombs > forced it up to the surface. Now Nessi cruises the river looking for > victims. Nato had better beware. > > Bojan Toncic is a journalist with the Institute For War & Peace > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Steven Kaye box_nine@ix.NOSPAM.netcom.com "Now, just let me fix this band on your head," I added, as I adjusted the electrode. -- William Hope Hodgson, "The Hog" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:42:22 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: DG: Nazi shooting incident Good Morning. I just had a discussion about that racist bastard that wounded several Jewish children with his Mini-Uzi and killed that poor postman before giving up to the police in Las Vegas. It seems that the guy is a member in at least one Neo-Nazi organisation. And besides seeming to be a complete moron from what I've seen on TV, the fellow has already been treated because of his psychiatric problems. This raised the following question: Could Karotechia be behind such a stupid crime with wich they achieve definitely nothing? Or could possibly DG be responsible for such incidents in order to completely ruin the image of possibly dangerous Nazi-groups? Of course they do already have a bad image in they eyes of the majority of the public [ well, hopefully.. ], but with such deed being performed by such a complete idiot it should become clear to everybody that not only their theories and teachings are stupid but that also their members are stupid arseholes. But on the other hand: Would DG - or cells or members of it - really dare to commit such atrocities [sp?] in order to weaken their enemies? How desperate does a cell have to be to risk or even destroy innocent lives in fighting the mythos? I mean, they should be the good guys, don't they? Or is it the key dillema of being in DG that you have to become a bad guy in order to fight the even worse guys properly? Then You definitely have changed from being a possible cure, to being part of the disease? DG-Agents that have crossed this line might even be a larger threat to the world than some cults. Or is it okay or even necessary to sacrifice innocent lifes in order to keep up the balance between you and your enemies? ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:53:32 -0400 From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr." Subject: Re: DG: Gnarley-on-Gnarley action! > > Estimates of the number of dead from the Eastern Front approach > > something like several million, right? > > Something like *forty* million, including civilians, Germans and Russians. > As I remember my historical statistics, before the battle of Stalingrad, the city numbered over one million residents. After the battle, there were less than 10,000. If you want mind-bending, sanity-blasting casualty numbers, read a good historical account of the Eastern Front. Worse than the American Civil War (in which one state's chief export changed from agriculture to artificial limbs). Worse, even than the Holocaust. There's probably more horror in that period of history than in the whole of history. - -Jimmie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:21:25 -0400 From: Jeff Ewing Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident I was particularly grimly amused by reports today that he didn't mean to shoot any children, that he was in fact aiming at a 68 year old day care worker and a 17 year old receptionist --Well, it seems that it's o.k. to shoot teens and the elderly but that even metally impaired neo-nazis don't want to be viewed as kiddie-killers. But perhaps the guy has a point: everyone gnashes their teeth about the wounded kids, but the Filipino postman who was killed (because he looked "nonwhite" and "worked for the government") is relegated to afterthought. I think McFadden is onto something with the DGML Foundation; anything to do with children seems to short cicuit our minds. Jeff, whose Mom used to live in Chatsworth. Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > > Good Morning. > > I just had a discussion about that racist bastard that wounded several Jewish > children with his Mini-Uzi and killed that poor postman before giving up to the > police in Las Vegas. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:38:13 EDT From: ScottSaylo@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Gnarley-on-Gnarley action! In a message dated 8/13/99 8:48:21 AM EST, jimmiebjr@olg.com writes: << If you want mind-bending, sanity-blasting casualty numbers, read a good historical account of the Eastern Front. Worse than the American Civil War (in which one state's chief export changed from agriculture to artificial limbs). Worse, even than the Holocaust. There's probably more horror in that period of history than in the whole of history. >> Just to lift the edge of the lid from the can: How do you seperate the Holocaust (which had as its primary victims the "racially impure" from Eastern Europe from the dead of the Eastern Front? Since the holocaust figure inflates the Eastern Front figure. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:29:31 MST From: "D.L. Serius" Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident As far as shootings go, this last incident doesn't rate particularly badly. More concern is given to how bad it 'could' have been with thanks given that it wasn't worse. Each new incident seems to escalate the sheer depravity of what a nut and his gun can do. It's not just the threat of dead children, but it's a hate crime too! If I were to put a spin on it, I'd say it's part of a plan to give the government more power. Any laws that get passed as a result of our recent wave of killings will be difficult to challenge, whether they be gun control, increased sentencing, more freedom for police to search and seize, or stricter measures for the mentally ill, anything. Anyone who argues against the new laws will be painted as arguing for the death of children. Just a knee jerk response from legislators who will fill their agenda before trying to solve the problems. Political diatribe aside, I don't figure DG could have anything to do with it. If they did, it's a hell of a sloppy job. There would have to be evidence of him being 'tampered with' in order to push him to shooting. And with so many DG agents in law enforcement, why let him surrender? Better to have him 'suicide' at the scene or when police catch up with him. As far as hate groups go, I think just letting them act on their own will do enough damage. Last year(roughly), two drunk rednecks dragged a colored man down a several mile stretch of highway with a chain on the back of their pickup truck for basically no reason other than his color. I can see how a hate group (including the Special K boys) might see this as a great move for Aryans everywhere without realizing how normal people will view their actions. No need to set these guys up, just keep an eye on them and when they screw up drop the hammer. Finally, I put my conspiracy bet down on MJ-12. Anything that increases the government's power makes them stronger. Increased law enforcement gives them more ability to cover things up. They have the ability (and drugs) to twist your mind. And absolutely no morals. (As proof, I'll cite Countdown-- the OUTLOOK program, specifically scenario 9.9 - EWWW!) Big D _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:00:36 EDT From: ScottSaylo@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Basque rugby and Juanez In a message dated 8/13/99 5:07:04 AM EST, fjrubio@logimatica.com writes: << ---Accepting the fact it's a curious msg, PLUS considering it a HOAX as i live in Bilbao (Basque Country) and have been playing rugby myself for some time so i usually keep myself to the date w/ the news and never heard of this stuff, i MUST add all that stuff 'bout ETA, the names, the "Juanez" (????) (ETA specialty???) and so on are ABSOLUTELY false. I do not know where have you got this info mate but it is not more than rubbish. >> Reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live pseudo-documentary study of the 1912 Serbian Dirt Diving Finals, the last time this particularly brutal sport was held. The supposedly silent films showed the determined athletes climbing higher and higher up the tower and diving into the packed earth below. There are only two rules: You must climb the ladder under your own power AND You must be able to clear the impact area by yourself a roughly three meter square surrounding your body on the ground. It was hilarious, but a lot of people thought it was for real. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:56:21 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Eclipse Music Festivals In a message dated 99-08-13 07:05:26 EDT, you write: << Again IIRC this coincided with the successful conclusion of the Peruvian Govt. project to "light" Macchu Picchu at nighttime in tasteful, tourist-pleasing fashion. The guy they drafted in to do that job was a Chinese lighting expert who uses feng-sheui rules for his lighting creations. He's done almost every top-class hotel, gallery and tourist attraction on Earth. >> Since I'm a MIS puke, I'm going to be spending Y2K Eve near the phone, and possibly in the Data Center. Not by choice. In fact, I'm fairly pissed (since I did MY job). Anyway, I was going to reward myself by travelling to somewhere cool to make a big symbolic deal out of the REAL Millenium on Jan 1, 2001. I figure that the crowds would be smaller and perhaps more savvy. Or maybe just more poor bastards who missed out on the other celebrations because they were busy keeping civilization running on schedule. I was figuring on Chichen Itza or Macchu Picchu. Nice to know I'll be able to see at night. Mark McFadden I give and I give and I give. And what do I get? Heartache! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:55:25 -0700 From: Phil A Posehn Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident Dear Meister Ekhard, Obviously you do not understand the importance of this mission. The pupopse of sending a total fool on a mission such as this acheives two important objectives... It convinces the sleeping public that Neo-Nazis are all fools, albeit dangerous ones and not to be taken too seriously, Which is EXACTLY what we want! Second, it convinces other like minded people that if this Idiot can accomplish so much, just think what THEY can do! Be seeing you, Kriegsmarine Moon On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:42:22 +0200 EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) writes: >Good Morning. > >I just had a discussion about that racist bastard that wounded several >Jewish >children with his Mini-Uzi and killed that poor postman before giving >up to the >police in Las Vegas. It seems that the guy is a member in at least one >Neo-Nazi >organisation. And besides seeming to be a complete moron from what >I've seen on >TV, the fellow has already been treated because of his psychiatric >problems. > >This raised the following question: Could Karotechia be behind such a >stupid >crime with wich they achieve definitely nothing? > >Or could possibly DG be responsible for such incidents in order to >completely >ruin the image of possibly dangerous Nazi-groups? Of course they do >already have >a bad image in they eyes of the majority of the public [ well, >hopefully.. ], but >with such deed being performed by such a complete idiot it should >become clear to >everybody that not only their theories and teachings are stupid but >that also >their members are stupid arseholes. > >But on the other hand: Would DG - or cells or members of it - really >dare to >commit such atrocities [sp?] in order to weaken their enemies? How >desperate does >a cell have to be to risk or even destroy innocent lives in fighting >the mythos? >I mean, they should be the good guys, don't they? > >Or is it the key dillema of being in DG that you have to become a bad >guy in >order to fight the even worse guys properly? Then You definitely have >changed >from being a possible cure, to being part of the disease? DG-Agents >that have >crossed this line might even be a larger threat to the world than some >cults. > >Or is it okay or even necessary to sacrifice innocent lifes in order >to keep up >the balance between you and your enemies? > >ECKHARD > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:53:37 -0500 From: Nightstar Subject: DG: Absinthe - was Reefer Madness SNIP >A "safe" absinthe, yes. The real stuff, no. I still am unsure as to why absinthe was outlawed. What precisely did it do to people who drank it? Was it outlawed because people were choosing it over wine or did it really have a negative effect on drinkers? Finally, the light at the end of the tunnel. . . . heh, heh, heh! Nightstar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:27:21 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident Greetings. Eckhard observed >This raised the following question: Could Karotechia be behind such a stupid >crime with wich they achieve definitely nothing? > >Or could possibly DG be responsible for such incidents in order to completely >ruin the image of possibly dangerous Nazi-groups? There's always the third option - he's an independent moron with Nazi leanings. As for the general INT stat of current Nazi sympathizers, from my experience (already bandied around on the list in the past), I'd not go above 8 at best on the Basic Roleplaying scale. For reasons that would sure be nice to study, whatever the cultural level of the subject (his EDU, in other words) the INT is never a two digit figure. I've seen people go down the drain because of their political leanings. [Nice slogan "Fascism makes you stupid"] My take is - Nazism (as any other form of integralism/foundamentalism-based faith) requires the subject to leave behind part of his or hers independent thinking. There's a set of rules and that has to be enough. As a result the "visual field" of the mind is severely reduced - tehre's things to which you are not allowed to think, as the process of thinking is replaced by a mechanical replay of set phrases. That wonderful human trait that is "Common Sense" is simply snipped away and replaced by precepts. The result is a moronic state. You simply can't reason with the guys, no matter what - they come to the point of accepting the correctedness of your objection while denying its obvious consequences. And here I better stop - the subject of loss of individuality and mental capabilities because of prejudice is one of my personal bugbears, and I've ranted enough already. Sorry 'bout that. Take care. Davide Mana ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:33:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Don Juneau Subject: Re: DG: Gnarley-on-Gnarley action! On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/13/99 8:48:21 AM EST, jimmiebjr@olg.com writes: > > << > If you want mind-bending, sanity-blasting casualty numbers, read a good > historical > account of the Eastern Front. Worse than the American Civil War (in which one > state's chief export changed from agriculture to artificial limbs). Worse, > even than > the Holocaust. There's probably more horror in that period of history than > in the > whole of history. > >> > > Just to lift the edge of the lid from the can: How do you seperate the > Holocaust (which had as its primary victims the "racially impure" from > Eastern Europe from the dead of the Eastern Front? Since the holocaust figure > inflates the Eastern Front figure. "Holocaust" (program of racial-purification and scapegoat bar-b-q) vs. the actual non-racially motivated messiness of Ostfront. Making your quota on the Buchenwald Express or doing the ol' Einsatzgruppen thing behind the front line is one thing (hey, they're *NAZIS*), but Stalingrad captives, starved near to death, getting to march miles through a blizzard to the Soviet POW camps is a different matter. (One bit I recall was Italians captured in some Sov push encircling the city going from subzero to like 70 degrees [F] temperatures [outside to indoors] and dying from the shock. Or the poor schlub who had a cast, and woke up to find a *river* of lice/fleas crawling under it to feast on the wound.) Leningrad and Stalingrad were the big "starve 'em out" sieges; I've read of cannibalism in both instances. The total will-driven tenacity of fighting back and forth for a few *feet* in a wrecked building at Stalingrad foretold much the same thing happening in Berlin - tho by '45, the Germans (in general) were in worse shape than the Russians at Stalingrad. Throw in the rest of Eastern Europe, tho - one source I've read claims that Albania was the only country to drive out the Germans without outside forces. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria...the only reason such an "ethnic cleansing" didn't happen *then* was that most of the players were busy trying to drive out someone or another (Germans or Sovs). What about the "Rape of Vienna", when Ivan got there? Hell, Katyn Forest! The Eastern Front was a lot nastier - Nazis believed that they were dealing with subhuman brutes, cunning and tough; Russians thought their enemy was arrogant and cruel. At Normandy, or even Italy, you looked over the gunsights and saw people who could be your neighbor, your friend, your relative... on the steppe, you saw a monster, one that you would give your last drop of blood to defeat. In France and Norway, the Germans merely wanted "subject peoples", to eventually be replaced (or some few "pure" types to be brought into the Greater Aryan Co-Prosperity Sphere) by the Master Race; in the Ukraine, the natives were (for the most part) seen as outright slave labour, to be used up and then cleared off for a Brave New Aryan World to be established. Both sides spread the vilest rumours and horror-stories about the other, some true and some false - and some false that would *become* true because of the propaganda itself... Two outright totalitarian regimes based on terror and power, butting heads in cultural areas where Sicilian vendettas would look like schoolyard snits - if that ain't fun, then you're not Nyarlathotep! Don, rambling away to read his new copy of DG:CD *and* PUPPETLAND/POWER KILL! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:30:59 -0700 From: Phil A Posehn Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident I would generally agree with your observations on INT in Nazis, and other high-dogma belief systems. However, one does occasionally encounter those who are indoctrinated by parents in childhood and have a high INT but because of their reality tunnel are only able to apply it in limited areas. Their conditioning makes them unable to examine critically their prejudices because of a fear reaction. Phil Posehn On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:27:21 +0200 Davide Mana writes: >Greetings. > >Eckhard observed > >>This raised the following question: Could Karotechia be behind such a >stupid >>crime with wich they achieve definitely nothing? >> >>Or could possibly DG be responsible for such incidents in order to >completely >>ruin the image of possibly dangerous Nazi-groups? > >There's always the third option - he's an independent moron with Nazi >leanings. > > >As for the general INT stat of current Nazi sympathizers, from my >experience (already bandied around on the list in the past), I'd not >go >above 8 at best on the Basic Roleplaying scale. For reasons that would >sure >be nice to study, whatever the cultural level of the subject (his EDU, >in >other words) the INT is never a two digit figure. >I've seen people go down the drain because of their political >leanings. >[Nice slogan "Fascism makes you stupid"] > >My take is - Nazism (as any other form of >integralism/foundamentalism-based >faith) requires the subject to leave behind part of his or hers >independent >thinking. There's a set of rules and that has to be enough. As a >result the >"visual field" of the mind is severely reduced - tehre's things to >which >you are not allowed to think, as the process of thinking is replaced >by a >mechanical replay of set phrases. >That wonderful human trait that is "Common Sense" is simply snipped >away >and replaced by precepts. The result is a moronic state. >You simply can't reason with the guys, no matter what - they come to >the >point of accepting the correctedness of your objection while denying >its >obvious consequences. > >And here I better stop - the subject of loss of individuality and >mental >capabilities because of prejudice is one of my personal bugbears, and >I've >ranted enough already. > >Sorry 'bout that. >Take care. > > Davide Mana ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:41:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Don Juneau Subject: DG: The Fate are accepting Adept applications now! Yes, you too can join one of the fastest-growing occult organisations in existance today! Power, money and all your desires await you in THE FATE. For more information... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- SJ Games News: "They Say Money Talks... Illuminated Site of the Week: "...all mine ever says is goodbye." Well, Red Skelton didn't have Where's George?, a site that tracks your currency as it wanders across the United States. Now your cash writes home. Sign up, and 17,000 fellow money monitors will let you know if and when they've spotted one of your bills. Find out where they go and how fast they get there. -- Suggested by Nathan Kottke Related Links: 1. http://www.sjgames.com/ill/illsotw/ 2. http://www.wheresgeorge.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:21:46 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Gnarley-on-Gnarley action! Don Juneau schrieb: [snip] > > "Holocaust" (program of racial-purification and scapegoat bar-b-q) vs. the > actual non-racially motivated messiness of Ostfront. Making your quota on > the Buchenwald Express or doing the ol' Einsatzgruppen thing behind the > front line is one thing (hey, they're *NAZIS*), but Stalingrad captives, > starved near to death, getting to march miles through a blizzard to the > Soviet POW camps is a different matter. I agree, though I do get some headache because of your, well, rather lighthearted [ word? ] choice of words describing the holocaust. :-/ But the essence of you statement is absolutly right: The holocaust was an extremely well planned and organized "industry" in the Reich. It was carried out with an obvious lack of emotion, where even infrastructural and technological problems had to be solved and even the railway system had to be re-structured to keep the trains rolling to the East. The war on the Ostfront -at least Stalingrad- seems different: carnage and desperation ON BOTH SIDES. [snip] > Leningrad and Stalingrad were the big "starve 'em out" sieges; I've read > of cannibalism in both instances. Cannibalism seems to be a "normal" thing happening during wars with Russia. Just remember the retreat of Napoleon's Army: First they ate their horses and then their dead comrades. It's the Russian winter that seems to stop every invading army. The total will-driven tenacity of > fighting back and forth for a few *feet* in a wrecked building at > Stalingrad foretold much the same thing happening in Berlin - tho by '45, > the Germans (in general) were in worse shape than the Russians at > Stalingrad. Everybody who ever did some training in "urban war" [ did not know any better expression ] during his military service knows that fighting in inner city areas or even in buildings is extremely claustrophic and deadly. [ And death might even come rather surprising, since the enemy really can hide anywhere ] [snip] > The Eastern Front was a lot nastier - Nazis believed that they were > dealing with subhuman brutes, cunning and tough; Russians thought their > enemy was arrogant and cruel. At Normandy, or even Italy, you looked > over the gunsights and saw people who could be your neighbor, your friend, > your relative... on the steppe, you saw a monster, one that you would give > your last drop of blood to defeat. My 87-year old uncle who served the whole six years as an "Obergefreiter" [ private 1st class? ] in the Luftwaffe, guarding and preparing airfields and serving as a chauffeur and kind of private servant/bodyguard for high-ranking Luftwaffe - Officers, told me the following: The most frightening and horrible place he experienced was the Balkans with its partisan war, where you just could not be sure who is a civilian and who will try to shoot you in the back later in the afternoon. It was the feeling that just about EVERYBODY you met could be an enemy that lead to the burning of villages and the lynching of civilians. This is not meant to justify these deeds but perhaps to be some kind of "excuse" for the simple privates involved. And it kind of reminds me of excesses [sp?] that happened in Vietnam where also nearly every Vietnamese could be a vietkong [ just think of My Lai ]. I have the theory that fear and desperation is an important factor behind SOME incidents we call war crimes. I do not want to be misunderstood: I do not mean things like the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, or the organized murdering of the Jewish population on the Eastern front by special Einsatzgruppen. What I am talking of are the things that happen out of fear and paranoia. Just imgaine serving as a private or staff sergeant in some war, where the enemy is not part of a regular army and therefore EVERYBODY of the population can be either fried or enemy and you do not have any chance to see the difference. Now imagine the following: You've been on a patrol mission and several close friends got killed by snipers and/or cruel traps. And then you get into some village where according to Army intelligence many of the partisans hide among the civilian population. Can you really be certain that you would not overreact???????? ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:18:31 -0700 From: Phil A Posehn Subject: Re: DG: Gnarley-on-Gnarley action! Obviously what we have here is Narlathothep vs Ithaqua On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:21:46 +0200 EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) writes: >The war on the Ostfront -at least Stalingrad- seems different: >carnage and desperation ON BOTH SIDES. > > >[snip] >> Leningrad and Stalingrad were the big "starve 'em out" sieges; I've >read >> of cannibalism in both instances. > >Cannibalism seems to be a "normal" thing happening during wars with >Russia. Just >remember the retreat of Napoleon's Army: First they ate their horses >and then >their dead comrades. It's the Russian winter that seems to stop every >invading >army. > > >The total will-driven tenacity of >> fighting back and forth for a few *feet* in a wrecked building at >> Stalingrad foretold much the same thing happening in Berlin - tho by >'45, >> the Germans (in general) were in worse shape than the Russians at >> Stalingrad. > >Everybody who ever did some training in "urban war" [ did not know any >better >expression ] during his military service knows that fighting in inner >city areas >or even in buildings is extremely claustrophic and deadly. [ And death >might even >come rather surprising, since the enemy really can hide anywhere ] > > > >[snip] >> The Eastern Front was a lot nastier - Nazis believed that they were >> dealing with subhuman brutes, cunning and tough; Russians thought >their >> enemy was arrogant and cruel. At Normandy, or even Italy, you looked >> over the gunsights and saw people who could be your neighbor, your >friend, >> your relative... on the steppe, you saw a monster, one that you >would give >> your last drop of blood to defeat. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #33 *******************************