From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #34 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Sunday, August 15 1999 Volume 02 : Number 034 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:50:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel M Harms Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Davide Mana wrote: > As for the general INT stat of current Nazi sympathizers, from my > experience (already bandied around on the list in the past), I'd not go > above 8 at best on the Basic Roleplaying scale. For reasons that would sure > be nice to study, whatever the cultural level of the subject (his EDU, in > other words) the INT is never a two digit figure. > I've seen people go down the drain because of their political leanings. > [Nice slogan "Fascism makes you stupid"] > My take is - Nazism (as any other form of integralism/foundamentalism-based > faith) requires the subject to leave behind part of his or hers independent > thinking. There's a set of rules and that has to be enough. As a result the > "visual field" of the mind is severely reduced - tehre's things to which > you are not allowed to think, as the process of thinking is replaced by a > mechanical replay of set phrases. > That wonderful human trait that is "Common Sense" is simply snipped away > and replaced by precepts. The result is a moronic state. > You simply can't reason with the guys, no matter what - they come to the > point of accepting the correctedness of your objection while denying its > obvious consequences. I'm not sure that would affect their intelligence, however. Most of us have certain beliefs and viewpoints that aren't particularly backed up by reasoning or logic (I know I do). In fact, totalitarian-style religious movements do a great deal of their recruiting in America on college campuses. Perhaps Nazism has changed its demographic somewhat, but IMO it's dangerous to dismiss them all as stupid. Yrs., Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:25:12 -0700 From: Gil Trevizo Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident At 06:50 PM 8/13/99 -0400, Daniel M Harms wrote: > I'm not sure that would affect their intelligence, however. Most >of us have certain beliefs and viewpoints that aren't particularly backed >up by reasoning or logic (I know I do). In fact, totalitarian-style >religious movements do a great deal of their recruiting in America on >college campuses. Perhaps Nazism has changed its demographic somewhat, >but IMO it's dangerous to dismiss them all as stupid. "Thinking is a form of emasculation.... Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering's alleged statement ("When I hear talk of culture, I reach for my gun") to the frequent use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals", "eggheads", "effete snobs", "universities are a nest of reds"." - - "Ur-Fascism", Umberto Eco, where he listed those aspects of endemic to fascist movements. So, one could see stupidity not just as a prerequisite but as Party line for Nazis. The above reference is just theory, but I have read Nazi tracts that make much the same point (ie. "dumb is good because smarts robs the Aryan of vitality'") from folks like Hitler, Rosenberg, etc. With the Nazi (or any other fascist), it's not just that the belief is irrational, but that the irrationality itself is what makes the belief true. This is why I liked that Davide pointed towards INT instead of EDU, and that no matter the EDU, the INT remains single digits. There were(are) plenty of educated Nazis, but, as Eco writes: "The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values." Back to Eckard's idea of a conspiracy behind Herr Buford, I was more apt to see some kind of Karotechia involvement in the other bit of news that shocked me more the day of the shooting - that Kansas is now officially banning evolution in school in favor of teaching creationism because "there's just no proof" (all that hundred-plus years of hard science withstanding). Now there's the path to true power for the likes of the Karotechia, et. al. Gil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:03:13 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident From: Davide Mana: > My take is - Nazism (as any other form of integralism/foundamentalism-based > faith) requires the subject to leave behind part of his or hers independent > thinking. There's a set of rules and that has to be enough. As a result the > "visual field" of the mind is severely reduced - tehre's things to which > you are not allowed to think, as the process of thinking is replaced by a > mechanical replay of set phrases. > That wonderful human trait that is "Common Sense" is simply snipped away > and replaced by precepts. The result is a moronic state. I just read Robert Anton Wilson's /Cosmic Trigger Vol. One/, in which he states in the intro pretty much the same thing: The more you unquestioningly believe, the stupider you are, because you've shut down your brain on that topic. Makes sense to me. But I don't know about it actually affecting the INT score. It all depends on exactly what that score represents, which is very unclear. But we had a huge thread on THAT subject months back. I guess you could have some complicated rule with two scores, one for situations concerning the topic on which the brain has fossilized, and one for when the brain is more flexible. But that just seems too complicated. As Agent Harms pointed out, a fair number of these guys are pretty smart. Certainly Skorzeny was a genius in his (violent) field. But I think Nazism appeals to them because they can turn their brain off on certain subjects. A lot of very intelligent people are drawn to cults. Maybe they're tired of thinking so much. > You simply can't reason with the guys, no matter what - they come to the > point of accepting the correctedness of your objection while denying its > obvious consequences. It is really amazing how brain-locked people can become. I've given up debating with fundamentalists of all kinds (at least steering clear of the topics on which they have become fundamentalist). Saves me a lot of stress. Regarding the question at the beginning of this thread, I have to say I doubt DG would be behind sponsoring hate crimes and child murders. Unless the children are infested with GOO spores or something. It's just not DG's style. I'm not saying DG is all goody-two-shoes, just that Nazis have been their big enemy for ages, and they wouldn't use Nazi methods, at least not for such a tiny gain. Most everybody already hates Nazis. And DG is in the business of "putting out fires," not starting them. But I wouldn't put it past some social engineering experiment of MJ-12's. Sounds more like this is a Karotechia patsy, perhaps, like those idjits at Columbine, "jumped the gun," so to speak. He was supposed to wait for Y2K--for the planned mass bombings and killings, and the introduction of the nasty MJ-12 computer virus (which won't be noticed at first--everyone will think it's just Y2K). Right--I'm out of here for the duration. On vacation to the end of the month! Whoo-hoo! and the email address I gave out is now changed to chaucerwatch@yahoo.com --strike the superdave address. It was giving me problems. Aloha, baby! Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:11:55 -0400 From: Steven Kaye Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident At 3:42 PM +0200 8/13/99, Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > >But on the other hand: Would DG - or cells or members of it - really dare to >commit such atrocities [sp?] in order to weaken their enemies? How >desperate does >a cell have to be to risk or even destroy innocent lives in fighting >the mythos? >I mean, they should be the good guys, don't they? Heh. That is the question, isn't it? From a ruthlessly pragmatic standpoint, I'd argue that the mysterious demise of Reggie Fairfield has discouraged continuation of the cowboy ops of the past. Besides, an organization with Delta Green's limited resources doesn't have the time to investigate the existing menaces to the U.S. AND go about creating its own incidents. Other paranormal investigative agencies might not be as hampered - or as scrupulous. >Or is it the key dillema of being in DG that you have to become a bad guy in >order to fight the even worse guys properly? Then You definitely have changed >from being a possible cure, to being part of the disease? DG-Agents that have >crossed this line might even be a larger threat to the world than some cults. My hoary refrain of "look to Agent Joshua" has some relevance here - he helps the victims of the Mythos, without fighting the war. Barring some horrible revelation about his character in DARK THEATRES or RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, of course. Steven - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Steven Kaye box_nine@ix.NOSPAM.netcom.com "Now, just let me fix this band on your head," I added, as I adjusted the electrode. -- William Hope Hodgson, "The Hog" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 1980 10:10:03 -0700 From: "Don Fougere" Subject: DG: MJ12 docs online at Art Bell Hello all, A person I met at the mess, mentioned I should check out this site. I thought you might find it entertaining or useful for background material. http://artbell.com/majestic.html Cheers, Don Fougere PO Box 5223, Stn Forces Cold Lake, AB T9M 2C3 Land of Milk, Meteorites and Honey!!! meteorite@telusplanet.net (at home) kamacite@yahoo.com (on the road) Hm (780) 594-1438 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 02:29:02 -0400 From: "Jeanne Edna Thelwell" Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident On point, I think, is this quote from Friday's NY Times article about the newly released notes for Adolf Eichmann's memoirs. (This was written, apparently, beginning just after he was tracked down in Argentina by the Mossad: "In the outline of his life published Thursday, Eichmann wrote: 'From my childhood, obedience was something I could not get out of my system. When I entered the armed services at the age of 27, I found being obedient not a bit more difficult than it had been during my life to that point. It was unthinkable that I would not follow orders.' "He continued: 'Now that I look back, I realize that a life predicated on being obedient and taking orders is a very comfortable life indeed. Living in such a way reduces to a minimum one's own need to think.'" The problem, of course, is whether you believe Eichmann was only "following orders", but the mindset is certainly relevant. On 13 Aug 99, at 17:25, Gil Trevizo wrote: > At 06:50 PM 8/13/99 -0400, Daniel M Harms wrote: > > > I'm not sure that would affect their intelligence, however. Most > >of us have certain beliefs and viewpoints that aren't particularly backed > >up by reasoning or logic (I know I do). In fact, totalitarian-style > >religious movements do a great deal of their recruiting in America on > >college campuses. Perhaps Nazism has changed its demographic somewhat, > >but IMO it's dangerous to dismiss them all as stupid. > > "Thinking is a form of emasculation.... Distrust of the intellectual world > has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering's alleged statement > ("When I hear talk of culture, I reach for my gun") to the frequent use of > such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals", "eggheads", "effete > snobs", "universities are a nest of reds"." > > - "Ur-Fascism", Umberto Eco, where he listed those aspects of endemic to > fascist movements. > > So, one could see stupidity not just as a prerequisite but as Party line > for Nazis. The above reference is just theory, but I have read Nazi > tracts that make much the same point (ie. "dumb is good because smarts > robs the Aryan of vitality'") from folks like Hitler, Rosenberg, etc. > With the Nazi (or any other fascist), it's not just that the belief is > irrational, but that the irrationality itself is what makes the belief > true. This is why I liked that Davide pointed towards INT instead of EDU, > and that no matter the EDU, the INT remains single digits. There > were(are) plenty of educated Nazis, but, as Eco writes: "The official > Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and > the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values." > > Back to Eckard's idea of a conspiracy behind Herr Buford, I was more apt > to see some kind of Karotechia involvement in the other bit of news that > shocked me more the day of the shooting - that Kansas is now officially > banning evolution in school in favor of teaching creationism because > "there's just no proof" (all that hundred-plus years of hard science > withstanding). Now there's the path to true power for the likes of the > Karotechia, et. al. > > Gil > Jeanne - ------------------- "Technique without ideals is a menace. Ideals without technique are a mess." -- Karl Llewellyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:57:54 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident Greetings. I guess I did not express well enough my pov. Daniel wrote > I'm not sure that would affect their intelligence, however. Most >of us have certain beliefs and viewpoints that aren't particularly backed >up by reasoning or logic (I know I do). In fact, totalitarian-style >religious movements do a great deal of their recruiting in America on >college campuses. Perhaps Nazism has changed its demographic somewhat, >but IMO it's dangerous to dismiss them all as stupid. My fault. I was writing in game terms (INT & EDU), and applying them too strictly. Let's try it this way - whatever your actual INT, adhering to a high-dogma systems (great definition, Phil!) lowers the effective stat under the two-digit format, at least on dogma-related subjects. It would then be possible to express the thing with a double stat. Bright Nazi Sympathizer - INT (15)8 The stat between brackets is applied to any situation in which ideology is not directly involved - solving equations. The second stat is applied when ideology is concerned - seeing the flaws in the concept of Race as used by Nazis. Probably same goes for EDU - if you ever met a former palaeontologist converted to creationism (I did) you can imagine the heavy editing involved. The real problem is, some ideologies (Nazism was on its way to get there, some are there already) aim at permeating the whole worldview of the individual. Anyway - just some random thoughts. I'm not bundling all fanatics under the "stupid" label - but you have to admit that stupids are well represented in the cathegory. End of rant. Take care. Davide Mana ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:40:29 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Absinthe - was Reefer Madness Cheers. Nightstar wrote >I still am unsure as to why absinthe was outlawed. What precisely did it do >to people who drank it? Was it outlawed because people were choosing it >over wine or did it really have a negative effect on drinkers? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about damages the chronical use of absinthe can do to you, but it might as well have been disinformation. My toxicolugy handbook is silent on the subject. As a snide aside.... Check out Poppy Z. Brite's "His Mouth Will Taste of Wormwood" to see just how bad absinthe can get - you'll probably never find a worse piece of horror storytelling around. So, yes, absinthe is dangerous. Finally, while I was running through my book collection for Absinthe-related matters, I found an interesting snippet of local history that listmembers will surely enjoy, and that has connections with at least three current discussions - absinthe, shoot-em-ups and Vietnam refugees. Among the galaxy of cults, Egyptian gods, crackpots, ghost-hunters and fools that are apparently all hustling their wares hereabouts, Turin also has its very own, absinthe-centered evil cult (or at least it had in the late '70s/early 80s) So, let's start with the cult leader - Jhyl Doreen. A Vietnam refugee in the States since 1974, a former Chinese restaurant waitress in Manhattan, Doreen had been the lover of a wealthy carpet importer. Ditched the carpetseller, Doreen had shacked up with a stage magician. The guy helped her develop a "goddess" image, explaining the basics in suggestion. In 1978, Doreen made herself scarce after the mass suicide of cultists in Guyana. Her involvement with the thing was none too clear, and some gentlemen from FBI (but we probably know better, right?) were eager to interview the lady. Again a refugee, Doreen created a sect or cult venerating absinthe, and pretty heavy on the whole "... a star called Wormwood..." jazz of Biblical fame. The cult had at least two known Temples, one in Turin and the other (you might have guessed it) in L.A. Every friday, cultmembers gather in the temple, where they receive, Communion-like, a spoonfull of their favourite poison in preparation for the coming of the Antichrist. According to Doreen - that was in Turin to raise money, and was more than happy to get some public attention "[The Antichrist] is born and is already operating. His action is revealed by seven evil giants placed in different points of the globe. Their activity is religious, but also political and social. It's feeding all that can disgregate and break-up. It's necessary to start more debates that end in brawls, favour every crime; drugs, alcoholism, everything can set the scene fro the chaos of the endtimes when He will reveal Himself" [from an interview with the Local News guys of "La Stampa"] Another basic tenement of Doreen's cult was that of "pure killing", a form of murder as art, unhindered by mundane cravings for money or power. You just go and kill someone (or many), just to increase the Entropy. As the chronicler (old hack Renzo Rossotti - 40-odd years in Local News) is sure to mention closing his brief outline of Doreen's activities in Turin, this town still has the highest rate of unsolved homicides in Italy. A killer choosing a random victim once in a while is almost impossible to nail, unless caught red-handed. The story, as usual, is almost too good to be true, and open to lots of possible DG-oriented uses. Maybe someone will find it useful. And here I stop this absinthe-fest. Take care. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 12:39:02 +0200 From: PM Subject: Re: DG: Greys in the Balkans? A french newspaper quoted "The Independant on Sunday" who reported that a serbian paranormal mag "Dosije X" (it sounds like the french words "Dossiers X" which would translate as "X-Files" ; not being serbien-fluent I can't be sure, though) saying that Clinton was E.T. controlled. According to Dosije X : "The main west leaders are under influence of E.T. signs" which would "explain their satanic behaviour" and the serbian demise would be caused by "the value of the situation analysis by the ETs who have realised how crucial Serbia was, hence deciding to destroy it." Note : Seems to be dozens of paranormal oriented magazines in Serbia. PM ============================================= Patrice Mermoud (Paris - France) mermoud@easynet.fr mermoud@multimania.com ============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:11:09 -0400 From: graemep@immagene.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: DG: St. Kilda (minor COUNTDOWN spoilers!!!) Very interesting article in today's Electronic Telegraph about the St. Kilda archipelago. (If you don't have COUNTDOWN yet, you'll wonder what the relevance is - just trust me). The article (along with some nice photos) is in the Features section at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk As always, youll need to register, but it's free and well worth the effort. Later Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:01:54 +0100 From: Barry Hill Subject: Re: DG: Total eclipse of the sun >, Graeme Price writes >Regarding the eclipse (which coincides with at least one listmember's >birthday... cheers Gaz), it is supposedly a very profund event regarding >astrological significance - end of the age of aquarius or something like >that. The significance of the eclipse is that it marks the end of the era of pisces and the dawn of the age of aquarius. the age of pisces is thought to equate to the age of christianity- jc using the symbol of the fish and all that . the eras of course run the opposite way to the year so aquarius follows pisces. I also went down to cornwall and watched it [ pity we didn't discuss it earlier as we could have met up] . the press of course lied and said all cornwall was covered in cloud - not true , i was on the north coast just south of newquey and saw a a fantastic eclipse bot as i stared up at that black sun stareing down with venus glowing bright orange near by ,i must admit the thought that went through my mind was ' i wonder if this is what is meant by the stars being right ?' for me now the stars being right must undicate a total eclipse. that is when the old gods will return to reclaim the earth . the light was undescribable - not just dark grey but like a dark silver .i could well imagine the earth had crossed a dimentional boundary and that i could see into carcosa .i would not have been at all surprised to see the dark towers reaching up to the black sun. you may now have gathered that i was very impressed ! \Barry Hill. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:53:17 -0500 From: Nightstar Subject: Re: DG: [fiction] Chasing the Bride (part 3) At 05:01 PM 8/6/1999 +0200, you wrote: >Chasing the Bride - pt 3 >Next installment is coming in in about 24 hours. Brother, are you dreaming this? Fantastic! Sleep well and sweet dreams! Finally, the light at the end of the tunnel. . . . heh, heh, heh! Nightstar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 21:51:05 +0200 From: Shoggoth Subject: Re: DG: Nazi shooting incident On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, you wrote: > Good Morning. > > This raised the following question: Could Karotechia be behind such a stupid > crime with wich they achieve definitely nothing? > Maybe...yourself say what they acomplises... > everybody that not only their theories and teachings are stupid but that also > their members are stupid arseholes. Well... one of the better things someone can do to enhace its strengh is to misleading the enemy about your REAL forces. You can make them think that you are stronger , and make them wait for better times to ambush you (dissuasion) , or make them think you are weaker , so they could be trapped Shoggoth. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:13:03 +0100 From: Barry Hill Subject: DG: Delta Green Eyes 2 i don't care if it has soft covers ,hard covers , human hide covers. or armour-plated covers i just wish my copy would arrive. i saw some today at a convention but i'd already ordered it from pagan. looks excellent, but of course that comment was totally unnecessary because it's DG and from pagan so of course it is [ ok so i'm a sycophantic little toady!] \Barry Hill. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:59:48 +0100 From: Barry Hill Subject: DG: re; saints i was reading about monsters awhile ago and came across the following fact: in the eastern christian church and the irish christian church it was well known that the saint christopher , the patron of travellers was in fact a dog headed human flesh eating monster and is portrayed as such in the libar breac the irish gloss on the C8th irish kalendar or list of saints and even in the anglo-saxon writtingsof the C10th of walter of spyer is described as such . the early church believed that at the edges of the known world such races existed and often showed jc preachung to dog headed men in the penticostal illustrations eg. the C11th psalter of theodore in the british library and the armenian gospel book of t'oros roslin. st. christopher was from such a race and his name was originally reprobus [ although that seems a very latin name for a barbarian] . it was only after the C11th that having a saint who was a dog headed flesh eater became too embarrassing that the image was changed to a giant and the image of him carrying jc as a child on his shoulder was a pun on his name - christpher means christ-carrier. well we of course know what dog headed human flesh eaters are - yes st. christopher was actually a ghoul probably converted by jc when he visited cornwall uk with his uncle to convert british ghouls. spoiler; . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .this may well be explained by agent jean qualls if the agents she works with find out she too is a ghoul. after all if a christian saint was a ghoul they can hardly take too much offence at her being one. so all this got me thinking what other saints may in fact be CoC monsters. i would be most interested in other examples. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:37:57 +0100 From: Barry Hill Subject: Re: DG: RE in the UK in the uk as i imagine in most countries we are supposed to be a multi- racial, multi-religion nation with all religions entitled to equal respect yet the church of england still thinks it rules the country [ actually as the queen is defender of the faith they do] .it still tries to make sunday a day of complete boredom for the whole country- the few remaining christians and the majority of the country, by stopping sunday shopping and ringing church bells because somebody wants to hold a foorball match on a sunday morning. still i suspect it's even worse in catholic countries . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:04:35 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: [fiction] Chasing the Bride (part 3) Greetings. A little bit of self-centered mailing. Nightstar wrote >>Next installment is coming in in about 24 hours. > >Brother, are you dreaming this? Fantastic! Sleep well and sweet dreams! [I just love posts like this] Thanks!! Actually no, I did not dream the Bride. The story was - outlined during a weekend - fleshed out nightly before bedtime for a week - checked and polished during the long, coma-inducing hours at the office for time unknown (no, really) - sent out in daily packages for the hell of it I've yet to use a dream as a template for a story - in that department (as in many others) I'm no HPL. Thanks for the compliments and the feedback. Take care. Davide Mana ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:22:23 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: re; saints In a message dated 8/15/99 9:10:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, barry.hill@hali.demon.co.uk writes: << saint christopher , the patron of travellers was in fact a dog headed human flesh eating monster and is portrayed as such in the libar breac the irish gloss on the C8th irish kalendar or list of saints and even in the anglo-saxon writtingsof the C10th of walter of spyer is described as such . the early church believed that at the edges of the known world such races existed and often showed jc preachung to dog headed men in the penticostal illustrations eg. the C11th psalter of theodore in the british library and the armenian gospel book of t'oros roslin. >> That is some provocative stuff. I have GOT to see some of those illustrations. Are any online? Y'know, if JC himself evangelized them, they could have given him some ideas back. Like communion. I can still remember my reaction to that part of my Catechism. "Hey, hey, hey. Back up a couple of steps there Father Flotsky. Did you just say that through the Miracle of Transubstantiation the bread and wine LITERALLY are transformed into the LITERAL flesh and blood of Christ? And then you intend to feed it to me?" When you consider the fact that at the time the faithful flock was still restricted to fish on Fridays, these dietary details loomed large in my imagination. I also remember practicing for the First Communion ceremony. We were given practical tips on how to deal with the Communion wafer. Stick out your tongue, let the priest place the Host on it. If it sticks to the roof of your mouth, don't dislodge it with your finger. Let Christ melt in your mouth, not in your hands. You may not touch Christ with your hands. Do not chew the Host. I doubt that the priest bakes the wafers himself. Somewhere, there are licensed commercial bakeries stamping out Communion wafers, which at this point are merely bread. I wonder how they are packaged? (I got a sudden flash of Communion wafers packaged like condoms. I think I'll have to do a Fast Talk roll with St. Peter at some point) Are they delivered by UPS to remote churches? Do they come with the candle and incense deliveries? With these sorts of thoughts bouncing around my brainpan, it's not surprising that the indoctrination didn't take. Well, not all of it. Now, I'm comfortably agnostic. And I do mean agnostic, which is not Atheist Lite. I refuse to replace cant with can't. In matters of cosmology, all I can honestly, truthfully say is "I don't know", and that is the meaning of agnosis. A few years ago I visited an historical state park. A restored Spanish mission outside Vandenberg AFB. I was bemused to discover that I could not cross the aisle of the chapel without genuflecting. Mark McFadden I love the smell of incense in the morning. It smells like....salvation. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:56:14 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: re; saints LizardRoi@aol.com schrieb: [snip] Let Christ melt in your mouth, not > in your hands. You may not touch Christ with your hands. Do not chew the Host. You are not allow to touch him, but eating him is okay? Oh boy, You Catholics are strange ;-) > I doubt that the priest bakes the wafers himself. Somewhere, there are > licensed commercial bakeries stamping out Communion wafers, which at this > point are merely bread. I wonder how they are packaged? (I got a sudden flash > of Communion wafers packaged like condoms. I think I'll have to do a Fast > Talk roll with St. Peter at some point) Are they delivered by UPS to remote > churches? Do they come with the candle and incense deliveries? This raises three points: 1. The producers of the wafers could add further ingredients to either raise the spirit of the flock by adding the amount of mariujana, etc.. 2. Or they could add something that would make them see the TRUTH behind their rituals... 3. Do mythos cults also have licensed companies that deliever them with the necessities for their rituals? ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:40:07 -0400 From: "gable" Subject: DG: Re: re; saints >saint christopher , the patron of travellers was >in fact a dog headed human flesh eating monster and is portrayed as such >in the libar breac the irish gloss on the C8th irish kalendar or list of >saints and even in the anglo-saxon writtingsof the C10th of walter of >spyer is described as such . [SNIPPAGE] >well we of course know what dog headed human flesh eaters are - yes st. >christopher was actually a ghoul probably converted by jc when he >visited cornwall uk with his uncle to convert british ghouls. Hmm. Cornwall, eh? Is that where St. Christopher originated? Interesting. (Obligatory reference to Fortean events and folklore) This would tie in, I guess, with some of the "werewolf" accounts I've read from the British Isles, where the supposed werewolf seems almost to be a biological entity, not a cursed Satanist. Not to mention with the wulver (a wolfish humanoid which has an almost monastic lifestyle), and the events concerning the Hexham Heads -- stone heads in Hexham, England were found, broght into a house, followed closely by poltergeist phenomena and sightings of a "wolf-man." Also, one question which presented itself to me is this: if St. Christopher (a cannibalistic Cynocephali) was, in actuality, a ghoul, why are St. Christopher's medallions used against vampires? One would think ghouls and vampires get along fairly well. Andrew D. Gable gable@redrose.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:16:45 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: re; saints Greetings. Looks like an Italian kid is needed to clear up some confusion ;> >> [snip] Let Christ melt in your mouth, not >> in your hands. You may not touch Christ with your hands. Do not chew the Host. > >You are not allow to touch him, but eating him is okay? >Oh boy, You Catholics are strange ;-) Mark's recollection are distinctly pre-Vatican Council 2, meaning either he's much older than he want us to believe, or he had to do with a pretty conservative priest during his formative years ;) CV2 loosened up quite a bit of the coreography (including Latin, and the priest standing with his back to the congregation), so much so that you can actually receive your communion in hand. Munching it is rather gross (I mean, it's God after all!), but if it sticks to your palate you can use a finger to push it along. [is it just me, or this whole thing is as wild as they come? I guess we'll all have to do a bit of Fast Talk with Peter at the pearly gates!] Incidentally, much of Mark's misgivings, doubts and conclusions were mine, too. Agnostics of the world, unite. >>> I doubt that the priest bakes the wafers himself. Somewhere, there are >> licensed commercial bakeries stamping out Communion wafers, which at this >> point are merely bread. I wonder how they are packaged? In white linen. A few bakeries are licensed to bake wafers for Eucaristic purposes. Industrial production is not unheard of. Same goes for the wine (usually of top quality, hereabouts). >>(I got a sudden flash >> of Communion wafers packaged like condoms. I think I'll have to do a Fast >> Talk roll with St. Peter at some point) Are they delivered by UPS to remote >> churches? Do they come with the candle and incense deliveries? Purchasing of wafers is covered by the church's budget, along with the wine and all the rest. Keep in mind, however, that _any_ bread works just fine (so much so that missionaries in China used rice). Same goes for incense and candles. Here in Turin (pardon the bit of Tourist Info) the area around Piazza Savoia (the original stomping ground of the Monster with Faun Feet) has a concentration of official providers of candles, tailor services etc to the Bishop's. Nothing strange with it. >This raises three points: > >1. The producers of the wafers could add further ingredients to either raise > the spirit of the flock by adding the amount of mariujana, etc.. I think it has been done - but it might as well be an urban legend. >2. Or they could add something that would make them see the TRUTH behind their > rituals... > >3. Do mythos cults also have licensed companies that deliever them with the > necessities for their rituals? Note that Eucaristic wafers are one of the main props during Black Masses. The good satanist coven-head should therefore have a steady supply of the thing. raiding bakeries just does not work - as Mark pointed, at the factory end, the stuff's just bread. This is the cause behind the main criminal activity of Satanic churches. Forget human sacrifice, blood rituals or chasing peter Fonda's mobile home. Satanists generally get nailed for b&e, as they try stealing wafers from churches. Which is why, incidentally, the Sanctum in the Church is a small safe-like closet. Expecially sophisticated satanists (or smart ones) can simply bribe a priest to get a share of his supply. Which gives me a few ideas for future fiction, but I'll keep mum for the time being. Take care. Davide Mana ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:27:52 -0500 From: Joseph Camp Subject: Re: DG: Hey! >Where is me copy of 'Countdown'? Didn't I win one of the darn things? Scott is packing up contributor copies and such now, I believe, and yours will be among them. Not long now! be seeing you, Alphonse ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:00:11 -0400 From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: DG: More St. Christopher This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEE758.C7F038A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here ya go. I've found an on-line reproduction of the Byzantine Icon of = St. Christopher the Dog-headed. URL is: http://www.intranet.gr/icom/byzantine/t1481.html I've found other sources indicating that St. Christopher, rather than = St. Mark, may be responsible for the conversion to Christianity of much = of Egypt. Otherwise, he's rather tenuously associated (in some way I'm = not clear on) with Anubis, who as we all know is actually a disguised = version of Mordiggian. Personally, I'd tend to associate him with the = god Wepwawet, who appeared identically to Anubis, especially based on = St. Christopher's status as patron of travellers and Wepwawet's epithet = "Opener of the Way." Another thought which wormed its way into my mind: St. Christopher is = the patron of travellers, the "Opener of the Way." He's been identified = with a ghoul. Ghouls are apparently unique, or nearly so, for their = ability to travel freely to and from the Dreamlands via their burrows. = Possibly a new light shed on the object of Christopher's patronage? Not to mention that there would be quite an uproar if a major Christian = saint was proved to be based on a pagan god... Andrew D. Gable gable@redrose.net "'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used = in quotes." My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult, "Nervous Xians" - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEE758.C7F038A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here ya go. I've found an on-line = reproduction=20 of the Byzantine Icon of St. Christopher the Dog-headed. URL = is:
 
http://www.intr= anet.gr/icom/byzantine/t1481.html
 
I've found other sources indicating = that St.=20 Christopher, rather than St. Mark, may be responsible for the conversion = to=20 Christianity of much of Egypt. Otherwise, he's rather tenuously = associated (in=20 some way I'm not clear on) with Anubis, who as we all know is actually a = disguised version of Mordiggian. Personally, I'd tend to associate him = with the=20 god Wepwawet, who appeared identically to Anubis, especially based on = St.=20 Christopher's status as patron of travellers and Wepwawet's epithet = "Opener=20 of the Way."
 
Another thought which wormed its way into my mind: = St.=20 Christopher is the patron of travellers, the "Opener of the = Way." He's=20 been identified with a ghoul. Ghouls are apparently unique, or nearly = so, for=20 their ability to travel freely to and from the Dreamlands via their = burrows.=20 Possibly a new light shed on the object of Christopher's = patronage?
 
Not to mention that there would be = quite an=20 uproar if a major Christian saint was proved to be based on a pagan=20 god...
 
Andrew D. Gable
gable@redrose.net
 
"'Reality' is the only word in = the language=20 that should always be used in=20 quotes."
         &n= bsp;         =20 My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult, "Nervous=20 Xians"
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