From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #35 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Monday, August 16 1999 Volume 02 : Number 035 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:02:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Tenebrous Technologies Subject: Re: DG: Hey! At 06:27 PM 8/15/99 -0500, Joseph Camp wrote: >>Where is me copy of 'Countdown'? Didn't I win one of the darn things? >Scott is packing up contributor copies and such now, I believe, and yours >will be among them. Not long now! I was just raising hell, I know you guys are hopping,no offense meant and hopefully none taken. ;) Matt C. +_+_+_+_+_+_+ Tenebrous Technologies- 'What we are up to is none of your business' A tradition in Guile, Deceit and Treachery since 1997 Matt Cowger, CEO tenebrae@earthling.net http://home.gvi.net/~tenebrae Vox: (###)###-##### +_+_+_+_+_+_+ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:43:46 -0400 (EDT) From: John Petherick Subject: DG: Pagan-ites Activity I haven't seen anything on the list about other games / supplements produced by the Pagan-ites, so here's a brief commentary. "One Shots", a supplement for "Unknown Armies" by Atlas Games. - - product information at http://www.atlas-games.com - - the cover, by Dennis Detwiller, is deeply disturbing. Specifically because the position of the subject's shoulder suggests that the injury is self inflicted. - - photos and graphic design is by John Tynes. Thought-provoking ... in-your-face ... in keeping with tone of game. - - a scenario by Mr. Tynes. Temptation for the PC's, morally gray, no clear victory for players. Overall, an excellent supplement for the system. Scenarios could be adapted for DG simulation exercises, but would probably result in significant sanity losses for agents. Please promise me - no matter how much the people at Atlas may beg - do not do anything for Ars Magica. Except for maybe a re-write of "Maleficium". Demons and devils would not be so angst-ridden, tempting and tragic if they were done by the Pagan-ites, as opposed to the people at Pallid Pooch. "Puppetland" and "Power Kill", games (or meta-games) written by John Tynes. Published by Hogshead Publishing in a single book. - - product information at http://www.hogshead.demon.co.uk/NewStyle.htm - - "Puppetland" is best described as "Punch and Judy gone horribly wrong". Except that it's more than that. - - the concept is great, as is the idea of requiring players to remain in-character for the entire gaming period. - - since sessions only last an hour, it may be a good alternative when you don't have enough time for a full session of another RPG. Or when someone is going to be late, and you need to do something while you're waiting. - -"Power Kill" makes my brain hurt. Really. - - very philosophical. I've read it a couple of times and know that I still haven't got all of the nuances - and it's only a couple of pages long. - - my take on this meta-game is that it should reinforce separation from the roleplying character and real life. I think. I'm probably wrong. Or maybe my reality is skewed. ********************************************************************* John Petherick, CIH jpetheri@cyberbeach.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:00:04 -0500 From: Joseph Camp Subject: Re: DG: Pagan-ites Activity >-"Power Kill" makes my brain hurt. Really. >- very philosophical. I've read it a couple of times and know that I still >haven't got all of the nuances - and it's only a couple of pages long. >- my take on this meta-game is that it should reinforce separation from the >roleplying character and real life. I think. I'm probably wrong. Or maybe >my reality is skewed. Actually, Tynes boozily insists "Power Kill" is merely a satirical broadside, in the vein of Swift's "A Modest Proposal." Put your tongue in your cheek and read it again. be seeing you, Alphonse ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:34:46 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: re; saints In a message dated 8/15/99 3:20:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, doctor.dee@iol.it writes: << Mark's recollection are distinctly pre-Vatican Council 2, meaning either he's much older than he want us to believe, or he had to do with a pretty conservative priest during his formative years ;) >> Ow ow ow! And right after my birthday, too. ;P Let's see. IIRC, the world was still in B&W and giants walked the Earth. My Mom is Irish and likes a little majesty with her cosmology. So, although English Mass was all about, she looked for the big cathedrals with Latin Mass. Stained glass and vaulted arches, Stations of the Cross prominently displayed and priests in cassocks instead of suits. They were actually rather easy to find, since LA was having a fit of the contraries and was consequently going back to Latin and leaving the Guitar Masses for the Born Agains. Also, in LA, a Mass in English wasn't doing the Hispanic population any favors. With Latin, the whole congregation is equal. We ate fish sticks on Friday looooong after Big Macs were kosher. I'm from the last generation of mackerel snappers. Mark McFadden ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:28:13 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: DG: FICTION: Forrest Lawn (Part 2) Forrest Lawn - Part 2 They sit awhile in silence. FORREST LAWN is a large, well-built man. His broad shoulders merge into his bull neck, giving him a bulletheaded appearance. His hair is buzz cut and he is clean-shaven. His suit is too small for his large frame and his wrists poke too far from his cuffs. His pants are too short and he is wearing white socks. The suit is straining at the buttons and doesn't conceal his large gun in his shoulder holster very well. He looks like The Tick in Ray-Ban Wayfarers®.* FORREST: What's your name? UL GUY: Who's your daddy? FORREST: … UL GUY: You know. Is he rich like me? FORREST: I don't know. Momma said she lost track, so she named me after her favorite. My name's Forrest Lawn. People call me Forrest Lawn. I was named after Forrest Tucker. Momma said he was as big as a baby's arm holding an apple. [LIVING ROOM. NIGHT] YOUNG FORREST is sitting, entranced, before a TV. FORREST: (continues, voiceover) I figure that had to be one big baby, because I saw him later on F Troop, and he looked pretty tall to me. Maybe she meant that's how big he was on TV. YOUNG FORREST holding an apple in his hand with his forearm against the screen while F Troop is on. He looks puzzled. FORREST: (continues, voiceover) Momma had a big family, and we moved around a lot to visit them. In each of the following scenes, the rooms are identical in layout. All elements are in identical positions. The color of the carpeting, curtains and upholstery, and the pictures on the walls are the only changes. YOUNG FORREST is motionless in the same position throughout. [MUSIC: "Behind Closed Doors"] [HOTEL ROOM. NIGHT. CHICAGO SKYLINE CAN BE SEEN THROUGH WINDOW.] FORREST: (voiceover) There was Uncle Sam. SAM GIANCANA hangs a DO NOT DISTURB sign on the doorknob as TWO OBVIOUS MAFIA GUNMEN bracket the bedroom door. FRANK SINATRA is watching TV with YOUNG FORREST. [HOTEL ROOM. NIGHT. LAS VEGAS SKYLINE CAN BE SEEN THROUGH WINDOW.] FORREST: (voiceover) And Uncle Howard. HOWARD HUGHES hangs a DO NOT DISTURB sign on the doorknob as TWO OBVIOUS BODYGUARDS in surgical masks and latex gloves bracket the bedroom door. BUZZ MEEKS is watching TV with YOUNG FORREST. [HOTEL ROOM. NIGHT. PALM SPRINGS SKYLINE CAN BE SEEN THROUGH WINDOW.] FORREST: (voiceover) And Uncle Jack. JOHN KENNEDY hangs a DO NOT DISTURB sign on the doorknob as TWO OBVIOUS SECRET SERVICE MEN bracket the bedroom door. PETER LAWFORD is watching TV with YOUNG FORREST. [HOTEL ROOM. NIGHT. DALLAS SKYLINE CAN BE SEEN THROUGH WINDOW.] FORREST: (voiceover) My other Uncle Jack. JACK RUBY is hosting a party with CLAY SHAW and DAVID FERRIE (wearing a ludicrous wig and drawn-on eyebrows) in attendance. FORREST'S MOTHER and several other good-looking women are décolletage and are on the arms of various CUBANS and MAFIOSI and SPOOKS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD is watching TV with YOUNG FORREST. [HOTEL ROOM. NIGHT. WASHINGTON, D.C. SKYLINE CAN BE SEEN THROUGH WINDOW.] FORREST: (voiceover) And Aunt J. Edgar and Uncle Clyde. J. EDGAR HOOVER in drag is seated at a table with FORREST'S MOTHER. He is filling out a check in a checkbook he has produced from his capacious purse. She is talking and there is a tape machine running on the table. CLYDE TOLLAND is watching TV with YOUNG FORREST. [PRESENT. NIGHT.] FORREST: I'm glad Momma never made me kiss Aunt J. Edgar. She was stubbly. UL GUY: I take it you're big on Family Values? FORREST: Uh huh. Blood is thicker than water. I checked. Anyway, we moved around a lot until I got old enough to enlist in the Marines. Mr. Oswald said they were the best. They were sure the loudest. [MARINE BOOT CAMP BARRACKS. DAY.] [MUSIC: "Think I'm Fixin' To Die Rag", minus Fish Cheer] GUNNERY SARGEANT HARTMAN is striding down the center of the barracks, flanked by recruits in their underwear at rigid attention. SGT. HARTMAN: God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see. He plays His games, we play ours. To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls. God was here before the Marine Corps, so you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here, you are all equally worthless. But I will make you worth something. I will make you Marines. I will make you suitable representatives of my beloved Corps, or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull fuck you! JOKER: Is that you John Wayne? Is this me? SGT. HARTMAN: Who said that? Who the fuck said that? Who's the slimy communist shit twinkle-toed cocksucker who just signed his own death warrant? All the recruits silently point at JOKER. SGT. HARTMAN: That's what I'm looking for. Teamwork. [EXTERIOR. PT COURSE. DAWN. IT IS RAINING] FORREST: (voice over) Boot Camp was a lot of fun. Marines running until they puke through torrential rain, in mud. FORREST is unfazed. In fact, when Marines ahead of him collapse in pain and exhaustion, he runs over them without breaking stride. FORREST: (voice over) There was lot's of running and playing in the mud. And climbing on the monkey bars and stuff. [EXTERIOR. OBSTACLE COURSE. DUSK. SGT. HARTMAN is straddling the topmost rung on an obstacle course tower. He is motivating PVT. PYLE, who looks remarkably like Jim Nabors. SGT. HARTMAN: Pyle, you climb obstacles like old people fuck! Are you quitting on me?! Well, are you?! Then quit, you slimy fucking doofus-looking piece of shit! Get the fuck off of my obstacle! Get the fuck down off of my obstacle! Now! Move it! I'm going to rip your balls off, so you cannot contaminate the rest of the world! I will motivate you, Private Pyle, if it short-dicks every cannibal on the Congo! FORREST: (voice over) There was clothes folding and cleaning floors with toothbrushes and lots and lots and lots of pushups. We see FORREST and the other Marines performing all of these activities as they are mentioned. FORREST: (voice over) But best of all, there was Bubba. FORREST and BUBBA are seated side by side and cleaning their rifles with obsessive attention. BUBBA is essentially FORREST'S twin, in black. BUBBA'S lower lip is thrust forward like a bulldog's. In the background, SGT. HARTMAN is shrieking into PVT. PYLE'S face with much gesticulating. FORREST: My name is Forrest Lawn. People call me Forrest Lawn. BUBBA: My name is Bubba. Bubba is crosscutting the noses of his bullets with a K-bar knife. SGT. HARTMAN: (to PVT. PYLE, in background) Were you born worthless, or did you have to work at it? FORREST: What are you doing Bubba? BUBBA: (intent on his work) Making dumdums. Now they'll make bigger holes. FORREST ponders this. SGT. HARTMAN: (to PVT. PYLE, in background) I bet you're the kind of guy that would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the god damned common courtesy to give him a reach around. FORREST: Can you make other kinds of bullets? BUBBA: Sure Forrest. There's dumdums. There's wad-cutters. There's hollow-points… FADE to platoon running in mud until they puke. FORREST and BUBBA obliviously trample the fallen underfoot. SGT. HARTMAN is shrieking at PVT. PYLE who has fallen in the mud. BUBBA: (continuing) …There's tracers. There's sabots. There's copper jacketed. There's explosive… SGT. HARTMAN: (to PVT. PYLE, in background) Bullshit! It looks to me like the best part of you ran down the crack of your mama's ass and ended up as a brown stain on the mattress. FADE to platoon doing pushups on their rifles. PVT. PYLE is standing before the platoon with his pants around his ankles and with his left thumb in his mouth. He is at right shoulder arms. SGT. HARTMAN is shrieking into his face with much gesticulating. SGT. HARTMAN: Pyle, you had best unfuck yourself and start shitting me Tiffany cufflinks or I will definitely fuck you up! BUBBA: (continuing) …There's incendiary. There's steel jacketed. There's armor-piercing. (pause) I think that's it. SGT. HARTMAN: (to PVT. PYLE) What is your major malfunction, numbnuts? Didn't Mommy and Daddy show you enough attention when you were a child? (to platoon) Lawn. Bubba. Front and center. FORREST and BUBBA spring to their feet and double-time it to SGT. HARTMAN. They come to attention at port arms. SGT. HARTMAN: I have failed to motivate Private Pyle. If I do not motivate Private Pyle, I will fail my beloved Corps. This is unthinkable. It will not be considered. No, I shall delegate this responsibility, so I may devote my attention to making you into efficient killing machines. You two are the most squared-away maggots in this festering, stinking excuse for a platoon. I am making the two of you personally responsible for Private Pyle's performance. My methods have failed. I suggest that you take a creative approach. Dismissed. FADE TO [BARRACKS. NIGHT.] [MUSIC: Mister Sandman] We see PVT. PYLE asleep on a top bunk. FORREST and BUBBA, in skivvies, leap upon PVT. PYLE. BUBBA pins PYLE's body under his own. FORREST covers PYLE'S face with his pillow and holds it down firmly until PYLE's thrashing stops. FADE TO [BARRACKS. MORNING.] [MUSIC continues] Recruits are standing about in skivvies. The body of PVT. PYLE is being wheeled out on a gurney by two CORPSMEN. CUT TO [SGT. HARTMAN'S OFFICE.] [MUSIC continues] SGT. HARTMAN is looking at a business card. CLOSEUP reveals that the business card says simply C.S.M. with a phone number below it. There is also a WATS line number. SGT. HARTMAN lifts the receiver and begins to dial. End of Part 2 * Savvy readers noticed that I committed a screenwriting cardinal sin when I didn't describe Forrest on his first appearance in the script. That's because I wasn't sure yet which way I was going to go with his character. At one point I was going to present him much like Tom Hanks, and make a great deal of his running prowess, and how it helped him reach a mature age in a dangerous business. If nothing else, it gave me the title "Say, Have You Seen The Yellow Stain?" Mark McFadden Pluggin' away. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 1999 09:05:35 BST From: "Jacob Busby Bsc." Subject: DG: Eastern Front To: deltagreen@nocturne.org From: Jacob Busby, IT Consultant, Tech Futures, IT Data Centre, Hampshire County Council, The Castle, Winchester. Tel: (01962) 845375 Subject: Eastern Front Agents interested in music for portraying stories on the Eastern Front should check "Road to Moscow" by Al stewart, found on the album "Past, Present and Future" _________ I think that I shall never see /__ __/ /__ a billboard lovely as a tree. __/ / / . / /___/ /____/ Ogden Nash, Song of the open road ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:31:02 +0100 From: Ward Phil Subject: RE: DG: War Crimes (was Gnarley-DP!) Similar things happen in Northern Ireland, or did happen anyway. I have relatives who've served over their in the regular army patrols. One of the worst things he ever saw was a gunman surrounded by the children of sympathetic (and nauseating) people who knew the soldiers would not fire back at him while he was surrounded. I can't decide which is the most disgusting thing; trying to borrow people's children as a human shield, or actually handing them over. There are reasons for some war crimes. Not excuses. Of course this sort of things can be well used by Keepers to torment their DG agents. Those kids are cute now, but in ten years time, if their teachers continue to imprint them, they'll turn into CIA-stooges, or Deep One Cultists, or perhaps worse, the clone of old Adolf Himself, (which would be an interesting investigation for DG< why did Karotechia Ritter direct a Bauer to execute children who ahve the same DNA as Hitler? Boys from Brazil, with a slightly annoyed Gnarley trying to clean up and keep his "amusing charade" going.....) Phil Ward > -----Original Message----- > From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de [SMTP:EHuelshoff@t-online.de] > Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 10:22 PM > To: deltagreen@nocturne.org > Subject: Re: DG: Gnarley-on-Gnarley action! > > [snip] > The most frightening and horrible > place he experienced was the Balkans with its partisan war, where you just > could > not be sure who is a civilian and who will try to shoot you in the back > later in > the afternoon. It was the feeling that just about EVERYBODY you met could > be an > enemy that lead to the burning of villages and the lynching of civilians. [snip] > I have the theory that fear and desperation is an important factor behind > SOME > incidents we call war crimes. [SNIP] > ECKHARD ************************************************************* This email is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. Sony cannot accept liability for statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not made on behalf of Sony. ************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:54:59 -0000 From: "Crossingham, Adam" Subject: DG: Countdown in the UK I thought I'd let folks know that Countdown is readily available in my part of the UK, and having secured a copy and spent most of Saturday perusing it, my initial marks out of 10 is 9 or 9.5 (some typos give a misleading impression in some places... that's all). Overall - there's more stuff to start two or three campaigns in here or really mess up your players day by introducing more weirdness. Let the 'Countdown' threads begin please.... - -- Adam Crossingham E-mail: adam.crossingham@octavian1009.e-mail.com Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual and not necessarily the company. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:40:42 +0200 From: "Florian R. Hanke" Subject: Re: DG: Countdown in the UK "Crossingham, Adam" wrote: > Let the 'Countdown' threads begin please.... Oh, yes - I'd be very interested in what the OUTLOOK group is. Is it in any way connected with the Mythos? If yes, how? And how is it connected with Delta Green? It's just that I won't be getting my copy anytime soon, and I'm planning to unleash a campaign after my tests. (The strange thing is - I faxed in 4 pages of orders and it confirmed 5 - Ygolofax? Hmm, better not read the 5th page, Pagans.) Thanks, Florian Hanke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:11:14 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: re; saints Davide Mana schrieb: [ huge snip ] > This is the cause behind the main criminal activity of Satanic churches. > Forget human sacrifice, blood rituals or chasing peter Fonda's mobile home. > Satanists generally get nailed for b&e, as they try stealing wafers from > churches. > Which is why, incidentally, the Sanctum in the Church is a small safe-like > closet. > By the way: Theft of certain religious objects from a church or temple is a special sort of theft in German law and the punishment is more severe. This law [ § 243 I Nr. 4 StGB ] does not only protect of the Christian churches, or Jews and Muslims: ANY religion, sect, cult, faith etc. is protected; German groups are protected as well as foreign groups. The Objects that are protected are the following: Items that are used four the religious group's rituals, celebrations or mass. The items that are prayed to, like relics, madonnas and statues. If the items mentioned above belong to a religious group that has some kind of organization or followers in Germany, they are also protected against being damaged. Willingly damaging or destroying objects is of course already punishable, but the damaging / destruction of religious objects will make a difference in the punishment. And while talking of religion and criminal law: Insulting [ or even protesting against in an unappropriate manner ] the teachings and rituals of religious groups in a way that could lead to public unrest [!!] is punishable [ § 166 StGB ]. One case that was punished was calling the Christian churches "organized crime groups", another one was the picture of a cruzified pig. But the "insult" should bear the possibility of leading to public unrest! It does not have to lead to public unrest, there just has to be the danger of it... Disturbing religious acts [ like masses, praying in churches, the singing of the flock, etc. ] in a drastical manner, is punishable [ § 167 StGB ], it's the same with funerals [§ 167 a StGB ]. The consequences for DG-Agents or other investigators could be the following: * "Stealing" the "Revelations of Glaaki" from a minor cult of Hastur in Wuppertal could [ theoretically ] mean 3 months to 10 years of jail. If I were the judge and this was your first crime, the result would be at least about 20 months with probation [ word? ] and a rather harsh fine or 2 1/2 years without probation, since the stolen object is worth quite a lot of money and very important for the cult. [ comparable to a rare version of the Bible ] * Destroying a rare and valuable statue of great Cthulhu in the major temple of the Cult of Cthulhu in Berlin and the statue originally comes from R'Lyeh, making it therefore VERY important, would provide you with 2 years in jail without probation if I were the judge. * And of course: Suddenly showing up at a ceremony to call good old Azathoth from the stars shouting, waving guns and interrupting the ritual and thereby saving the world could mean up to 3 years or a fine for the disturbing of religious practices, § 167 StGB. Of course, legally the fact that you saved the world by commiting these "crimes" would justify your actions, so you would not be punished. BUT: Which judge would believe you. [ By the way: The carrying of guns, mistreating the cultists -like hurting or insulting them- would make the sentences more severe. ] And one final advice: Don't let yourself be caught after burning down some cultists temple: You would get AT LEAST one year of prison, if people got hurt AT LEAST two years. Should somebody get killed -even if this was not your intention- you would get AT LEAST 10 years or even a life sentence [ §§ 306 ff. StGB ] ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 99 10:19:43 +0100 From: Peter Devlin Subject: DG: Pagan Saints Andrew Gable wrote: >Not to mention that there would be quite an uproar if a major Christian >saint was proved to be based on a pagan god... Chasoium's scenario book "Horror's Heart" deals with this topic in a low-key fashion. S P O I L E R S Investigators are asked to assist a Catholic priest in verifying the origins of the well preserved corpse of a man who is suspected of having been a Christian saint. Actually he was the original source of the saints tales but his works were later ascribed to another Christian. The corpse is that of a Christian turned Mythos cultist and is later resurrected by his cult. Given the level of Christian knowledge on the list perhaps someone can tell me if this kind of confusion and obfuscation of saintly backgrounds was common? Or deliberate? I am highly intrigued by the St Christopher - ghoul link. You could even posit that certain Vatican sources are aware of the true nature of these particular saints. (For those interested, the noted scenario ran exceptionally well and would serve to introduce the Order of St Jerome in a DG setting - a Vatican monster hunter appears in the latter stages. It could be modified to other locations (it is set in Montreal) quite readily.) Cheers :-) --> :-0 Peter Devlin Bell, Book and Candle - http://www.rpg.net/ The South Side - http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/lovecraft/411/south/ Email - pdevlin@scotsys.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:32:27 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: DG: Prince Charles, Cyprus & Harpoons... Good Morning. The Prince of Wales was attacked by angry Cypriots carrying harpoons while Charles Windsor was swimming alone in a remote bay. He was saved by his security people he called by using a secret emergency beeper on his watch. Might the Cypriots have confused the Prince with a Deep One? Did they probably see something that is normally hidden by Charles' clothes [ gills? ]. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:32:02 -0400 From: Jeff Ewing Subject: Re: DG: Pagan Saints Peter Devlin wrote: > Given the level of Christian knowledge on the list perhaps someone can tell me if this kind of confusion and > obfuscation of saintly backgrounds was common? Che-yeah! At least one Saint turned out to be a dog when his tomb was opened. Consult the Bollandists' massive compilation of Catholic Saints and you'll find that the legends and origins of most of them are disputed, obscure or apocryphal. Saints began as local heroes, so their legends are a fascinating mix of pre-Xian, conventional, or interpolated deeds and stories. IIRC the Bollandists (a subset of the Jesuits) began the compilation in the 1860s and aren't finished with it yet, so that gives you some idea of the mass of data merely to be collected, much less evaluated. Jeff --happens to be quite interested in Saints. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:11:57 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Pagan Saints Greetings. Peter wrote << Given the level of Christian knowledge on the list perhaps someone can tell me if this kind of confusion and obfuscation of saintly backgrounds was common? Or deliberate? I am highly intrigued by the St Christopher - ghoul link. You could even posit that certain Vatican sources are aware of the true nature of these particular saints. >> The mixing up of characters is not unheard of. Some embarassment was caused to the good people of Genua (Genova) when a medical examiner, having a go at the mortal remains of Saint George (patron of the town), was able to establish with almost 100% certainty that the body belonged to an Arab or Turk, and therefore almost certainly a Muslim. Checking out Oxford's Book of Saints could provide long hours of amusement. About the confusion being deliberate - your guess is as good as mine. A number of saints are clearly fabricationa or adaptations of former gods/spirits - the case of St. Brigid springs to mind. Other saints are originated by unpleasant, and often highly manipulated real life events - check out the story of Little St. Hugh (upon which I based an old '20s scenario and that is indeed.... suggestive). Incidentally - a suggested reading that no British keeper can miss, and all other Mythos-dabblers are invited to peruse . Jennifer Westwood - Albion, A Guide to Legendary Britain - Grafton, 1992 [ISBN 0-586-08416-9] A brick of a book, it should go for about ten pounds, and it's worth every single penny (or whatever). Back to saints, finally we get those that are just spelling errors - when you consider that Latin did not distinguish between U, V and 5, that Ps and Bs and Rs are easily turned into each other by weathering, and add non-standard spelling, abbreviations and stuff to the mix, getting the names wrong's pretty easy. The best (IMHO) fictional account of such an accident is in J.B. Cabell's "The High Place" (a recommended read). Unsurprisingly, the Church does weed out a few saints from the calendar once in a while, often keeping a low profile. Considering the last few clean-ups of the calendar, one might be justified thinking about 70% of the medieval saints are at least dubious. Hope this helps. Cheers! Davide Mana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:16:05 -0000 From: "Crossingham, Adam" Subject: DG: Secret History Karotechia watchers in the UK may be interested in the 'Secret History' programme showing on Channel 4, Thursday 19 August at 8:30 p.m.. Here's what C4's listing says: "SECRET HISTORY HITLER'S SEARCH FOR THE HOLY GRAIL 20:30 When Steven Spielberg made the Indiana Jones series about an intrepid archaeologist fighting against a Nazi unit seeking to get the power objects of history, it was not widely known that the tale was based on fact. There really was a Nazi archaeological unit which sent teams across the world trying to uncover the secrets of myths such as Atlantis and the Holy Grail. Secret History - Hitler's Search For The Holy Grail tells the true story. The programme is about the Nazi historical department which sought to justify the racist theories of the SS ideology using history, archaeology, myth and legend. Hitler's Search for the Grail shows how Nazi ideas about Aryans and the Master Race came out of historical and ethnic fantasies and it is a programme on how those fantasies led to genocide. Hitler's Search for the Holy Grail contains much remarkable rare and unseen footage including: * colour film of the Nazi expedition to Antarctica, * film of the Nazi expeditions across the world from the Baltic to Venezuela * Remarkable footage of the Nazi's 1938 expedition to Tibet * Himmler on archaeological site. There is also documentary evidence of Nazi expeditions to Peru, Iceland and Iran and the programme conjures up the world of myth and legends which permeated the Nazi leadership. It shows how top scholars, some still alive, collaborated in the project. Hitler's Search for the Holy Grail includes interviews with former members of Himmler's personal staff and the wife of a top SS Commander who give a unique and unrepentant insight into this inner circle. The programme also includes a dramatic recording on the Nüremberg trial of Wolfram Sievers, the head of the SS-Ahnenerbe [The Ancestral Heritage Society], Himmler's Archaeological and Historical Unit. The programme concludes with the thought that such attempts to subvert history and archaeology to justify racism did not stop in 1945 and continue to this day. Hitler's Search for the Holy Grail is directed by Kevin Sim. This award winning director is well known for such high profile programmes as Kitty, Return to Auschwitz [RTS award]; 4 Hours in My Lai [BAFTA & EMMY] and Crime of the Wolf [BAFTA & RTS]. His most recent film was on Karadic and the War Crimes trials in The Hague entitled The Reckoning. The programme is presented by Michael Wood himself an award winning programme maker. Among his nearly 70 films are the award winning Saddam's Killing Fields; The Congo in the BAFTA winning River Journeys. He is presently working on Encounter of Two Worlds about the Spanish Conquest of the New World. The producer is Rebecca Dobbs. Her many films include features, experimental and documentary work. They include a trio of award winning films with Stuart Marshall [Over Our dead Bodies, Desire, Comrades in Arms]. She produced Saddam's Killing Fields and the recent In The Footsteps of Alexander the Great for the BBC - both featuring Michael Wood." I imagine this programme should show up on PBS or the History Channel thereafter. My video is programmed and ready to go.... - -- Adam Crossingham E-mail: adam.crossingham@octavian1009.e-mail.com Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual and not necessarily the company. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:51:03 +0900 (JST) From: ft203004@fsinet.or.jp (Jay and Mikiko ) Subject: Re: DG: FICTION: Forrest Lawn (Part 2) >Forrest Lawn - Part 2 You actually had me tearing up at this. My neighbors are going to wonder why I was howling at one o'clock in the morning... this time, I mean. Jay - ------------------------------------------ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." Dave Barry, _Twenty-five Things I have Learned in Fifty Years_ - ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:50:17 -0400 From: Jeff Ewing Subject: Re: DG: Pagan Saints Davide Mana wrote: > Back to saints, finally we get those that are just spelling errors - when > you consider that Latin did not distinguish between U, V and 5, A good example of this is St. Ursula, who, on the evidence of a 4-5th century inscription was killed at present-day Koln, Germany, along with "XIMV" by either the Huns or the Emperor Maximian. Some people took this to mean "11,000 virgins", which seems unlikely. It seems more reasonable that this is short hand for "11 Martyred Virgins." Nonetheless, you often see depictions of Ursula with a huge crowd sheltered under her cloak. Anyway, you see how confusion arises. Ursula, BTW, is one of the demoted Saints that Davide speaks of; after Vatican 2 her feast day was reduced to local observance only. Jeff, recommends also the Penguin Dictionary of Saints as inexpensive and covering the most-likely to be seen Saints in the hierarchy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:16:19 EDT From: DHammann@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Pagan Saints Hey, Saints were human. They didn't do the good works of Christianity ALL their lives. Many were mercenaries, knights, nobility, a few converted from other religions. Later in their lives they radically changed their views (some for perhaps selfish reasons - such as to make up for past sins and get into heaven) and dedicated themselves to the faith and the poor. If they were previously wealthy they could have helped many and so legends would have been built around them. There is a good scenario hook, how a black magician 'bought' his reputation as a saint by supplying the Church and the poor with gold. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:34:34 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Secret History Crossingham, Adam schrieb: > Karotechia watchers in the UK may be interested in the 'Secret History' > programme showing on Channel 4, Thursday 19 August at 8:30 p.m.. Here's what > C4's listing says: > > "SECRET HISTORY > HITLER'S SEARCH FOR THE HOLY GRAIL > > 20:30 > > When Steven Spielberg made the Indiana Jones series about an intrepid > archaeologist fighting against a Nazi unit seeking to get the power objects > of history, it was not widely known that the tale was based on fact. [ snip ] Strangely, while you could definitely find most information here, such research does not really happen by Germans and I guess such shows would be nearly impossible over here. Most of the research and discussion about the 3rd Reich is about the reasons just how this could all happen and why in Germany. Obviously there are good reasons for such research and discussion in Germany. But why German historians seem to ignore such things like the occults background of Nazism seems strange and still not very clear to me. On a party with a couple of historians and history students I once mentioned the connection between Nazism and the occult and got nearly kicked out, being told this was ridiculous and that one had to be more serious when talking about such a topic. I am not really certain if you have to dead serious about Nazism, since laughing about or at terrible things weakens them. But ignoring facts that you consider too strange or ridiculous for you research for whatever reason is just plain stupid. Perhaps Karotechis is behind that ignorance. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:29:19 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Pagan Saints Greetings again. Our Spiritual Counselors would be proud - gone are the posts about blasphemous horros, now we are swapping tales about saints. Highly sunday-school-like. Jeff noted >> Back to saints, finally we get those that are just spelling errors - when >> you consider that Latin did not distinguish between U, V and 5, > >A good example of this is St. Ursula, who, on the evidence of a 4-5th >century inscription was killed at present-day Koln, Germany, along with >"XIMV" by either the Huns or the Emperor Maximian. Some people took >this to mean "11,000 virgins", which seems unlikely. The same incident gave birth to another cancelled saint, Saint Undecimilla (pseudo-female name meaning something like "Eleventhousandine" or thereabouts), a highly dubious saint that was an alternative, "more rational" interpretation of the inscription mentioned by Jeff. So, not eleven thousand girls, but just one called Eleventhousandine. This one was so blatantly apocryphal that obviously was one of first to go down the drain, but yet, a few historical ladies named "Undecimilla" can be spotted through reinassance records. Incidentally, the name sounds uncannily as a price tag in Italian. BTW - put together St Ursula (the name goes back to the latin Ursus, meaning bear, the wild beast of the mountain) and her 11 thousand young... companions and you've got a ready made Mythos connection. And as we're dealing with saints, my Saint Jerome page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/zenith/134/stjerome.htm features a link to an on-line dictionary of saints - names, history in brief, maybe an image. Might be worth checking out. The link drops you on the St.Jerome entry, but from there it's pretty easy to navigate. And here I stop and go back reciting rosaries. Take care. Davide Mana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:52:18 -0400 From: Tom deMayo Subject: DG: Looking for CoC group in Atlanta area Could anyone on the list help me to locate a Call of Cthulhu group in the Altanta area? Tom de Mayo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:53:45 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Pagan Saints DHammann@aol.com schrieb: > Hey, Saints were human. They didn't do the good works of Christianity ALL > their lives. Many were mercenaries, knights, nobility, a few converted from > other religions. Later in their lives they radically changed their views > (some for perhaps selfish reasons - such as to make up for past sins and get > into heaven) and dedicated themselves to the faith and the poor. If they > were previously wealthy they could have helped many and so legends would have > been built around them. > > There is a good scenario hook, how a black magician 'bought' his reputation > as a saint by supplying the Church and the poor with gold. Considering the fact that the role of saints as we know them today is a Catholic invention and that the Catholic Church's role in history was quite often not that saintly, I think being made a saint is more like a promotion for "political" reasons, though you have to be dead to receive that honour. Sometimes being sainted seems also to serve as a kind of excuse to individuals that got mistreated or killed by the church. Now, If you are consequent in using the Lovecraftian concept, saints must have some connections to the mythos, since you have to have "commited" miracles before being nominated as a saint. And since all magic is connected to the mythos [ at least in my campaign ] these ladies and gentlemen must have been some kind of wizard or cultist. And think of the Catholic mania to collect relics of saints: Is this anything other than their wish to collect the essential salts of people with mythos knowledge? ECKHARD ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #35 *******************************