From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #60 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Thursday, September 9 1999 Volume 02 : Number 060 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:06:14 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Public Service: The MiB On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Davide Mana wrote: > This one has my vote as an essential entry for the (forthcoming?) DGML FAQ. > I've seen too many good people scared off the list by the MiB not to > appreciate this level headed, comprehensive overview. People who are easily offended are not good. They are close minded. This is one reason why I tend to behave in the manner that I do. It filters out non-level-headed uncomprehensive types. Where are these so called good people who are unable to scrounge the bare modicum of courage necessary to confront my ideas? They have no love for the Game, no commitment to the intellectual property, and worst of all, no sense of humor. Send them off to less threatening pastures. Better for them and us. > compensates the loss of experience and know-how we have suffered from the > brain drain caused by the MiBster biting the head off everyone that dares > to say his bit. They can say their bit all they like, but then people are surprised when I say my bit, and flee in terror. Fragile minds should be broken over and over until they develop some sort of perspective. > Think about it. I thought about it a long time ago, and it still works. The Man in Black is : think that this post should have been funnier. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Eckhard "the Strangler" Huelshoff wrote: > Later during recon training they taught us some stealth basics, like > where to put the knife or bayonet in your opponent's body when you > attack him from behind or how to strangle. But they never answered my > question why they do not simplify matters by just giving us silenced > weapons. Cause silencers are expensive and wear out after a few shots/mags/etc. You can't give one to everybody! Sheesh! OTOH, teaching people how to sneak up and kill people reinforces a killer mentality, in addition to being a useful skill for anyone to have. Eckhard, you must have snuck up behind a hostile witness, judge, or annoying legal secretary and strangled/knifed them. Or did you use a silenced weapon? The Man in Black is : behind you right now. LOOK OUT~! Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:21:44 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Jeff Ewing wrote: > I've always thought this would be a great character trait/disadvantage > for a player character, something like "Miserable shot, but believed to > be a gun nut." I just have to try my hand at this :) GURPS stats only. - -1 Quirk - -5 Secret - -5 to -25 (!) Bad Reputation. A -25 Bad Reputation would only work in a very silly game. Anything beyond -10 is really in the realm of the ridiculous. +5 to +25 Good Reputation (people like it!) Anyone else want to take a shot at it. The Man in Black is : ruling the realm of the ridiculous. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:21:30 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers In a message dated 9/9/99 1:34:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mib@cyberspace.org writes: << > IIRC, when the 16 was adopted, someone asked if the plastic butt > wouldn't be a handicap in close-quarters fighting. One of my goals in Basic was to break some M-16 plastic. I took a CCQ target with no target (only a traffic pole) and just whaled away to no avail. I was as buff as I've ever been by that time, but nary a crack. Maybe it was modern plastic. >> I had the "privilege" of seeing the M-16A2 stock used to butt stroke a real human being (an unfortunate and strange incident between a Parris Island DI and recruit). Suffice to say that the recruit suffered damage while the stock held just fine. As for the T2000 ratings on the US Army and others, probably what is being represented is the fact that the US Army in basic training places a little less importance on the rifle training and combat skills. They feel that they (as the largest US service) don't have the time and material to spend on making every recruit a combat monster (especially if said recruit is going into a REMF job). They refine the combat skills at later infantry schools and OJT for those that need the training. Groups like the US Marines (though as much out of mystique and tradition as true operational need) and possibly other armies still place emphasis on rifle skills in basic training. What that means is that a fully trained US infantryman will be about the equal of any other combat trooper (though these things are hard to quantify realistically) but a US Marine clerk will kick an Army clerk's ass any day on the range :) - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:24:42 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Phil "the Pill" Posehn wrote: > So...has the Man in Black tried out "Violence" from Hogshead pub. yet?? You intrigue me, tell me more... > Phil Posehn > Who still hasn't stopped laughing WHAT'S SO DAMN FUNNY~! The Man in Black is : funny, but not *damn* funny. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:27:10 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 LizardRoi@aol.com wrote: > Thinks snipers are girly-men who are not only too flabby to practice martial > arts, but are suspiciously reticent about being close to any action. BLAM~! The Man in Black is : nowhere near the Grassy Knoll this time. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:37:30 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Don Juneau wrote: > I personally enjoy alternate timelines; my recent websearching for docco > also took an odd turn, for Nazi UFO material, and I found nifty fan-pages > for Luftwaffe and Imperial Japanese "1946" war-extensions. Some *evil* > ideas for my Arrowhead "leftovers", and perhaps some Nyarli-meddling in > the timestreams to horrify the players... You are going to go all freaky over the ETHOS then. I should be posting a long synopsis soon. It's very Cosmic, and provides a framework for interdimensional campaigns, if a little (Okay a LOT) derivative of the Technocore. Pop Quiz: What author's novels contains the Technocore? > Most of my alternate stuff is non-CoC usable, tho - "TubePunk" 1940s/'50s, > "Magic Noir" '40s, "Steam Mecha" Victorian Era, and other strangeness. Where do we go to grasp our brains onto this strangeness. I demand satisfaction, you fucking tease! > Don, rambling terribly On your knees bitch! I demand satisfaction. The Man in Black is : not satisfied Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:38:33 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Graeme Price wrote: > For a nasty, vile little excursion into Karotechia-type alternate time-line > territory, check out Thomas Harris' excellent novel "Fatherland". Lots of > plot hooks there. A rather disturbing and thought-provoking read in some > ways, though. How does it compare to the movie? The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:47:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Tenebrous Technologies Subject: DG: Change of venue Hey all, I got the super speedy cable modem thing going on. My email addy has changed. If you shoot me mail at tenenbrae@earthling.net, continue to do so, I changed the settings there so it will send to my email to where it needs to go. Otherwise I am mcowger@kc.rr.com. Either will get your mail to me. I am going to do a big ol' site up date and move as well, but watch home.gvi.net/~tenebrae for where I am going. I am leaving it there for now. (And you hecklers, I know, the whole place has needed an overhaul for awhile...give a brother a break). At either rate high speed cable modem is way cool, love it and once the site hits its new home watch for faster load times. best and bless to all of you friends and enemies and you that are both *you know who you are), as always Matt C. +_+_+_+_+_+_+ Tenebrous Technologies- 'What we are up to is none of your business' A tradition in Guile, Deceit and Treachery since 1997 Matt Cowger, CEO tenebrae@earthling.net http://home.gvi.net/~tenebrae Vox: (###)###-##### +_+_+_+_+_+_+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:55:17 -0500 (CDT) From: MSubias@ix.netcom.com Subject: RE: DG: Warning on Snipers McGloin, Michael said... PT as a substitute for the effects of combat stress is common throughout Special Operations units, including SEALs, Rangers, SF and even Miami SWAT. This is just one more reason why the skill levels of these individuals is so high. If you want to understand the added difficulty of this please take a look at the Biatholon event in the winter games.By the way regarding the use of 50.cal sniper rifles and the US military. The SEALs have deployed with this weapon into combat. In fact a Seal sniper in Somolia was credited with three kills firing just such a weapon, one of which was at 700 yards. Talk about reaching out to touch some one, with a 10x scope you can get kills at 2000 yards. What is "PT?" When I was in the military, it meant physical training. I suspect that you didn't mean that in this case? Marco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:08:19 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers In a message dated 9/8/99 11:27:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mib@cyberspace.org writes: << BLAM~! The Man in Black is : nowhere near the Grassy Knoll this time. >> You missed a spot. Back...and to the left. There. Mark McFadden You will note that I am protected by my Shield of Moral Superiority(tm) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:33:01 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Public Service: The MiB On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Phil A Posehn wrote: > I've forgotten. When the MIB submitted his character did he include San > loss for an encounter with him? You don't lose SAN for viewing the Great One. It's what I *do* that erodes the ego. Also, I never submitted a character, but if you insist: STR 12 CON 19 SIZ 11 INT 86 POW 100 DEX 19 APP 18 HP 15 Move 12 db +0 Attack: 100% any weapon, damage as per weapon. HOLD ON~! Stop the Presses! Cut! Something's not right here. Lesse, Cut = Ctrl-C, Paste = Ctrl-V... !Es una bonita puesta de sol!: Detta dr en vacker solnedgeng!. Nosotros hablamos espaqol muy buenos. Uh... One more try Ctrl-C... Ctrl-V... BEAVER, Giant FREQUENCY: Very rare NO APPEARING: 10-40 ARMOR CLASS: 6 MOVE: 6"//12" HIT DICE: 4 %IN LAIR: 80% TREASURE TYPE: C NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard INTELLIGENCE: Low to Average ALIGNMENT: Neutral SIZE: M (6' long) PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil Attacks/Defense Modes: Nil ARRRGGGHHH~! The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:38:58 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Return of the Sniper On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 Appelion@aol.com wrote: > >The Man in Black is : one of the few DM's to use Giant Beavers. > For good reason. However, if your investigators need a cover for buildings > older than the should be, land beavers can come in handy. Careful that you don't run into the evil beaver. Eeevil Beaver! Evil Beaver on the Loose, Evil Beaver eats a Moose! EVILBEAVAH! > Gnawin' 'em where it hurts Pappapicchu! The Man in Black is : examining dams. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:37:49 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers In a message dated 9/8/99 11:57:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MSubias@ix.netcom.com writes: << What is "PT?" When I was in the military, it meant physical training. I suspect that you didn't mean that in this case? >> PT still means Physical Training (when it doesn't mean Patrol Torpedo). The elite Saurian Guard utilizes a regimen of Crisis Aerobics to achieve their goals in a timely fashion. Rather than mildly elevating the heartrate for an extended period, they produce ludicrously high heartrates for short periods appropriate to their attention spans. This is achieved by eating four healthy bran muffins washed down with a half gallon of Starbuck's expresso, and driving a supercharged Trabant with the throttle wired down (and no brakes) on the freeway to the shooting range while wearing a gas mask full of amyl nitrate. Remember, squeeeeeeeeze. Mark McFadden Who says a Mannlicher-Carcano can't fire 3 rounds a second? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 04:19:24 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Alphonse pic On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Florian R. Hanke, the Christmas Poo, wrote: > I uploaded a small part of a sketch of an image I'm doing for the Green > Book. It shows Alphonse (Or at least how I think he looks like), reading > (What, we can only guess - TRoGlaaki Vol.13?). I thought it might prove > useful to keepers who haven't introduced him yet. (Like myself) I can't believe the sketch camera in the apple pie turned out so well. Who knew that Big Al was such a plug-ugly, fat, pear-shaped, bloated, Innsmouth looking, change jingling, golf shirt wearing, bookworm. Ahem, I think that from now on that shushing lunkhead will be known as BOOKWORM whenever I'm not in a bad mood, which is never. Excellent work, Mr. Hanke, now return to hoarding Nazi Gold and Gnoming Zurich, whatever that might be (Gnoming, not Zurich). Probably has something to do with that holey repulsive substance the Swiss rub on themselves during sex. > It's here: http://n.ethz.ch/student/hankef/DeltaGreen/alphonse.gif The Man in Black is : well pasteurized. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 04:44:40 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 LizardRoi@aol.com wrote: > << What is "PT?" When I was in the military, it meant physical training. I > suspect that you didn't mean that in this case? > >> > > PT still means Physical Training (when it doesn't mean Patrol Torpedo). ...or Punishing Torment, Pussy Test or a number of other colorful terms. > The elite Saurian Guard utilizes a regimen of Crisis Aerobics to achieve > their goals in a timely fashion. Rather than mildly elevating the heartrate > for an extended period, they produce ludicrously high heartrates for short > periods appropriate to their attention spans. Interesting. Destro's Iron Grenadiers used to do this until they became essential immune to periods of physical exertion shorter than 60 minutes. I believe a favorite war cry during strenuous exercise was "Iron Grenadiers love PT! Iron Grenadiers beg for more PT!" You have to hand it to an Arms Dealer who keeps Cyaegha in his dungeon and makes out with the Baroness on the deck of his very own aircraft carrier (available for a reasonable rate, easy terms) while his mercenary army begs for more PT. Men in Black tend to use techniques that are weird, and sometimes technological. Drugs, direct neural interface, psychic and Psionic procedures - all these have a place in stressed training. Even dimensional and other reality shifts can be used. The Man in Black is : accepting applications. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:59:48 GMT0BST From: Robert Thomas Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts Hello All, Someone wrote: > >>ObDG: has anyone considered a CoC/DG game where WW1 finished differently and > >>consequently the world is little different from own past - a bit like that > >>Chambers story (sorry I can't remember it's name but it's in the 'King in > >>Yellow' collection) where the Great War ends in 1920, and the US turns a > >>little weird. and then Graeme added: > > For a nasty, vile little excursion into Karotechia-type alternate time-line > territory, check out Thomas Harris' excellent novel "Fatherland". Lots of > plot hooks there. A rather disturbing and thought-provoking read in some > ways, though. I'm in the process of reading a rather excellent book of alternate histories written not by journalista or politicians but by two historians: Virtual History : alternatives and counterfactuals. Edited by Niall Ferguson 1997 This book covers a lot of the themes proposed in the list discussions recently, and look sat alternatives to the Cold War etc haven't read it all yet but the pieces on WW2 are excellent. well worth a look. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:32:59 -0400 From: Steven Kaye Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts At 2:38 AM -0400 9/9/99, The Man in Black wrote: >On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Graeme Price wrote: > > > For a nasty, vile little excursion into Karotechia-type alternate time-line > > territory, check out Thomas Harris' excellent novel "Fatherland". Lots of > > plot hooks there. A rather disturbing and thought-provoking read in some > > ways, though. Quick correction - Robert Harris. I've heard bad things about ARCHANGEL, unfortunately - was thinking about using it for some Soviet Union CoC. Steven - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Steven Kaye box_nine@ix.NOSPAM.netcom.com "In short, we did all we could to stimulate an official discovery of the ghastly wreck, without making reference to incredible manifestations, or to humane but illegal acts of euthanasia." -- Michael Shea, The Colour Out of Time ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:38:24 -0400 From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr." Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers > > I've always thought this would be a great character trait/disadvantage > > for a player character, something like "Miserable shot, but believed to > > be a gun nut." > > I just have to try my hand at this :) GURPS stats only. > Well, of course! > Anyone else want to take a shot at it. > I'll take a shot (pun intended?) at this one... The miserable shot aspect pretty much doesn't need to be bought. Just don't spend any points in the gun skill. Cover the "believed to be a gun nut" as a reputation, either positive (for those who think it's a good thing) or negative (for those who don't). I wouldn't go for more than a 10-pointer either way, unless, of course, you're running a really silly campaign. I'd make anyone who used this actually come up with the story behind the reputation, too. - -Jimmie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:00:29 -0400 From: graemep@immagene.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: Public Service: The MiB SuperDave wrote: >Perhaps we ought to notify the newcomers (and the MiB) that we developed a >policy whereby people new to the list introduce themselves by writing up a >(realistic) CoC-standard character sheet of themselves, along with notes of >how to use this character in one's game. Sheets are filed in the Ice Cave, >where one can go shopping for DG Friendlies who are actually based on real >people you can have conversations with. It's worked out quite well, >IMHO--I've had listmembers show up in 2 games now, and actually knowing them >a bit helps me flesh them out. You tease! Which listmembers? Did (to paraphrase our man in Hawaii) they get their candy-a$$es soundly whipped? Later Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:38:00 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers The Man in Black schrieb: [snip] Eckhard, you must have snuck up behind a > hostile witness, judge, or annoying legal secretary and strangled/knifed > them. Or did you use a silenced weapon? In court I prefer White-Phosphorous Grenades, in pre-trial discussions the lovely 40mm HE would be my argument of choice. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:37:56 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers The Man in Black schrieb: [snip] > OSOK is fine if you are fortified or sniping, or operating in a small > special forces unit. But in a running battle (where you are running > around) or if you are merely a moderately skilled marksman, it is > ineffective. Years of expensive wargames/manuevers on proving grounds have > shown this. Small bursts (3-5 rounds) is the most effective means for > regular army units to kill the enemy. Probably it's a question of what weapon you are using. Firing small bursts from a SMG or a M16 might just be the right thing to do, but when you use the G3 with its 7.62mm rounds, anything but firing single and hopefully well-aimed rounds is wrong. The recoil does not really allow another way of firing, at least if you want to hit something or someone. > [snip] > The small burst is more accurate, and with more bullets flying through the > air, it is also more likely to kill people near your target. Huddling > together during combat is bad when the enemy is firing small accurate > bursts, and not single shots (which are more dramatic and terrifying, > but less effective). The best instrument to fire accurate, small bursts is the machinegun. Of course you can fire long rounds as well, but since the heating up of the weapon is a problem and you don't want to waste ammo, small bursts are better. On the other hand, when you are in a bunker in Normandy and some American fool is landing his transport boat carrying a platoon directly in front of your machinegun, firing long rounds can help to "soften up" the invasion. Anyway, I totally agree on your second point: While having your platoon gunned down by round after round of autofire is a brutal, shocking thing, seeing them killed one by one by a very well hidden, "invisible" sniper is horrifying in a haunting or spooky way. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:38:00 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Public Service: The MiB David Farnell schrieb: [snip] > Perhaps we ought to notify the newcomers (and the MiB) that we developed a > policy whereby people new to the list introduce themselves by writing up a > (realistic) CoC-standard character sheet of themselves, along with notes of > how to use this character in one's game. Sheets are filed in the Ice Cave, > where one can go shopping for DG Friendlies who are actually based on real > people you can have conversations with. I never heard of that policy. Does it still exist? ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:46:20 -0500 From: "Shane Ivey" Subject: RE: DG: Public Service: The MiB SuperDave Farnell schrieb: <> You must tell us who, why, and what was their fate! I've already had my brain eaten once in Delta Green, I want to know what the others had to suffer! SHANE IVEY, Editor and Webmaster, Zealot.com This week at Zealot.com: John Rhys-Davies in Lord of the Rings, "Geek Lovin" (our latest MP3), and the latest movie reviews! Hecklers Online, Inc: www.hecklers.com - www.ant.com - www.zealot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:15:10 +0100 From: Fintan Palmer Subject: RE: DG: Alternate Pasts Hi, SS-GB is good but I'm not mad on the bit with the King. The nice touches include the drunken German soldier with the invasion campaign badge, who hints at the slaughter of the initial landing, and the rivalry between the SS and the Abwehr. SS-GB and Fatherland are very different books though. SS-GB is more about the initial stage of the German occupation of Britain while Fatherland is a good look at what Germany would've been like 20 years after the war's end. Either way, both give pretty good background info for different stages of an alternate history with a victorious Germany. Fintan >-----Original Message----- >From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de [mailto:EHuelshoff@t-online.de] >Sent: 08 September 1999 10:38 pm >To: deltagreen@nocturne.org >Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts > > >Graeme Price schrieb: >> >>ObDG: has anyone considered a CoC/DG game where WW1 >finished differently and >> >>consequently the world is little different from own past - >a bit like that >> >>Chambers story (sorry I can't remember it's name but it's >in the 'King in >> >>Yellow' collection) where the Great War ends in 1920, and >the US turns a >> >>little weird. >> >> For a nasty, vile little excursion into Karotechia-type >alternate time-line >> territory, check out Thomas Harris' excellent novel >"Fatherland". Lots of >> plot hooks there. A rather disturbing and thought-provoking >read in some >> ways, though. >> > >Personally I prefer Den Leighton's "SS-GB" > >EH > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:15:36 +0100 From: Fintan Palmer Subject: RE: DG: Alternate Pasts Hi, The movie is nowhere near as good as the book. The ending is different and the treatment of Joe Kennedy is much less flattering (but probably more accurate) in the book. Oh, and when the main character, a former U-Boat captain turned detective, finds out what his socks were made out of during WW2 his SAN takes a bit of a beating. Fintan >-----Original Message----- >From: The Man in Black [mailto:mib@cyberspace.org] >Sent: 09 September 1999 7:39 am >To: Delta Green List >Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts > > >On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Graeme Price wrote: > >> For a nasty, vile little excursion into Karotechia-type >alternate time-line >> territory, check out Thomas Harris' excellent novel >"Fatherland". Lots of >> plot hooks there. A rather disturbing and thought-provoking >read in some >> ways, though. > >How does it compare to the movie? > >The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins >Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum >Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. >http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 09:32:48 MST From: "D.L. Serius" Subject: Autofire (was DG: Warning on Snipers) MIB wrote: >Small bursts (3-5 rounds) is the most effective means for regular army >units to kill the enemy. (snippage on accuracy and lethality) The main reason for switching to 3rnd bursts is not accuracy or effectiveness but logistics. It's an unfortunate(?) fact that most soldiers in a combat situation are NOT aiming or at best are vaguely pointing their weapon at the enemy. By restricting how many shots go with one squeeze of the trigger, you slow down the rate at which a soldier chews up his ammo. (Which the MiB mentioned.) If a trained soldier takes a moderate amount of time to aim there will be relatively little difference in his lethality. For him, the number of shots fired would be based on his target. One guy, one shot. 1 or 2 guys running, 3rnd bursts. Bunch o' Guys(tm), better dump the clip into them as long as you're aiming. The whole problem is it's tough to take the time to aim when explosions are going off, people are shooting back, you hurt yourself diving for cover and landing on a pile of shattered concrete, etc. I'm not trying to say which is more accurate OR effective. I'm just saying the main reason the army (US) went to 3rnd bursts was to reduce the #bullets/casualty inflicted. After all, if shorter bursts were the MOST effective, they'd put limiters on all weapons, including the SAW and the M-60. Big D ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:10:41 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts Cheers! > >Personally I prefer Den Leighton's "SS-GB" > Yes indeed! A far better take on the same subject. Happy reading! Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:20:52 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Warning on Snipers Greetings. Another strange MiBian slip [who said only Freud could get them?] > >Maybe it was all those DOOM and Castle Falkenstien games? Castle Wolfstein (or something equally pseudoteutonic) Castle Falkenstein is a nice RPG that was sadly abandoned by an unkind publisher. Anyway, it goes to show the MiB is only human after all. Another thing that might be worth pointing out in the FAQ ;> Take care, gentlemen Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:01:32 -0400 From: Keith J Potter Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts > > Personally I prefer Den Leighton's "SS-GB" > Anyone who hasn't read Philip K Dick's "The Man in the High Castle" should do so at once. It's a very creepy look at an America occupied by the Axis after losing WW2. --Keith Potter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:11:50 EDT From: Popeyesays@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts In a message dated 9/9/99 11:18:27 AM Central Daylight Time, fintan.palmer@trintech.com writes: << SS-GB is good but I'm not mad on the bit with the King. The nice touches include the drunken German soldier with the invasion campaign badge, who hints at the slaughter of the initial landing, and the rivalry between the SS and the Abwehr. SS-GB and Fatherland are very different books though. SS-GB is more about the initial stage of the German occupation of Britain while Fatherland is a good look at what Germany would've been like 20 years after the war's end. Either way, both give pretty good background info for different stages of an alternate history with a victorious Germany. >> Let's not forget "The Ultimate Solution". A NYC detective closely overwatched by the Gestapo and heavily protected by one of the few remaining "alten kammaraden" tries to hunt down the last Jew on earthb. Probably the bleakest and most stark loopk at a world under the Nazi thumb. Lots of references to veterans who served under Patton in the defence of Washington and looks at the Boy Scouts represented by two brothers who spend their allowance on hamsters so the can crucify them. Fascinating book, rather thin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:13:03 -0400 From: "McGloin, Michael" Subject: RE: DG: Warning on Snipers [McGloin, Michael] Yes I meant pysical training. The idea is that you knock out some push ups or go for a sprint before firing your weapon. This teaches you to fire your weapon in less than perfect conditions. If training is going to even get close to simulating combat conditions the soldier is going to need to function when they are tired, cold, wet and filled with adreniline. Michael McGloin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:47:01 -0400 From: "McGloin, Michael" Subject: DG: Skill levels in CoC / DG Sorry it took me so long to get a back on this point. Boy I guess people thought the numbers I passed out were a little high. Well maybe they were a bit high but not crazy high. Now in my own experience with RQ and other Basic Role Playing systems, 90% is mastery. In fact before you were able to teach you had to possess a 90% in a skill. Now while RQ2 allowed skills in excess of 100%, these were very rare instances. Now in RQ2 you did not expect to see a bunch of 90%s on a character sheet unless you were looking at a Rune level character. I would think that a marine sniper would be close to that level. One of the problems is a problem common to character generation and skill systems in many rpgs, the problem of skill breakdown. CoC is a great example of this weakness. For instance, history, psychoanalysis and biology are very comprehensive skills cover many different specialties. Thus I can generate an expert accountant by allocating 90 skill points. Now this seems like a sensible approach, however when we look at some skills that might fall in line with special operations, such as air/sea navigation and land navigation. Why are these two skills broken down while Freudian and Jungian Psychoanalysis, two very different schools are left covered under one skill. For example the one response with a breakdown of skills for a lawyer, seemed a far more realistic approach. However in the present system I would have just allot skill points to Law. Constitutional Law: 50% Administration Law: 30% Tax Law: 08% Civil Law: 58% Criminal Law: 70% The thing about Special Operations troops is that they are the elite. They are training full time expending as much as a thousand rounds a week and 20 hours a month on the range. Think of an accountant who spends most of their time training for a CPA test or a lawyer who spends 20 hours a week every month working on advanced degrees and certifications. However because games tend to break down physical skills in greater detail than academic one a character coming out of the special ops would generally have a greater number of high skills than a lawyer. However this is true of Medical characters as well. The closest thing I can think of is a doctors residence. A surgeon would have medicine, biology, surgery, credit rating, pharmacy and chemistry. Thus it would seem that if people want to play realistic special ops characters than they will have to have a large number of high skills. I do not feel that these skills would all be in the 80-90% range, I do feel however that their specialty skills would be up there. If some one spends years firing a weapon or practicing covert insertions they are going to get good at it. Finally I did mean physical training. In the case of Special Ops target practice it is used to simulate a combat environment and to act as a hindrance to the soldiers aim. Michael McGloin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:56:12 -0700 From: Scott Cleverdon Subject: DG: Gaming in London At 5:55 AM -0700 9/7/99, Jacob.Busby wrote: >There used to be a London gaming society called "The Guild of Melee and Magic" >They have four of five branches for North, West, East and South >London and they >meet up in pubs on a weekly (?) basis. I don't know any more than that, as I don't live in London. Thanks, although the idea of playing in pubs would seem a little couter-productive. I'll check it out. regards scott cleverdon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:15:50 -0700 From: Scott Cleverdon Subject: DG: waco Fellow Agents, http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html The above sight will give you more information and pictorial evidence than you thought you would ever like to have on Waco. Also, it will make you think that the idea of incendiary tear gas grenades are the least of the issues with this apparent cover-up regards scott cleverdon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:33:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Don Juneau Subject: Re: DG: Alternate Pasts On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Steven Kaye wrote: > >On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Graeme Price wrote: > > > > > For a nasty, vile little excursion into Karotechia-type alternate time-line > > > territory, check out Thomas Harris' excellent novel "Fatherland". Lots of > > > plot hooks there. A rather disturbing and thought-provoking read in some > > > ways, though. > > Quick correction - Robert Harris. I've heard bad things about > ARCHANGEL, unfortunately - was thinking about using it for some > Soviet Union CoC. Yup; Thomas Harris does those cheerful psychological-profiler things like RED DRAGON, THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, and HANNIBAL. Mmm, mmm, good. ARCHANGEL? Is that a FATHERLAND sequel? I seem to recall another book titled as such, that was alternate-history (Germans fiddle with Ebola during WWI, and [apparently] manage to breed it with Spanish Influenza; story starts years later in the US, with the aftermath of such a horrid disease making itself part of the fabric of society), but I disremember the authour. Don ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 21:33:20 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Public Service: The MiB Greetings. Eckhard wrote >> Perhaps we ought to notify the newcomers (and the MiB) that we developed a >> policy whereby people new to the list introduce themselves by writing up a >> (realistic) CoC-standard character sheet of themselves, along with notes of >> how to use this character in one's game. Sheets are filed in the Ice Cave, >> where one can go shopping for DG Friendlies who are actually based on real >> people you can have conversations with. > >I never heard of that policy. Does it still exist? Yes it does. It works like this You send me (or the list) a character sheet for yourself, to be used as an NPC by some evil keeper somewhere. It should contain Name, age, profession. Basic Attributes Essential Skills Phisical Description Equipment at hand and Weapons _Brief_ Bio Roleplaying Notes But the main point is - make it Realistic. We all know, of course, that we DG List members are all perfect 18-STATers with no less than 85% in all skills, legions of women (or men, or gerbils) worshipping our shadows and huge nasty depots of ultratech gizmos and assorted stuff, but for the sake of sanity (the SAN of those puny mortals out there, of course), let's try and pass ourselves off as humans, ok? This also means that apart from a few lucky (?) individuals [mr Daniel Harms and H. P. Lovecraft among them], no one should have a stratospheric Cthulhu Mythos rating. We can put the MiB in the cathegory, but all others are invited to stick to the rules and make it no more than.... what was it, 25%? Anyway, you get the idea. you can check out some of the list regulars making a display of themselves at http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/dgmlnpc.htm This is more or less it. New submissions will be added to the Ice Cave on the next update. As the new one comes this monday night (Sept 13th!), you might just try and fit in. I'll give this List NPCs update the priority over stupid things like Java and the like. As I said, send them to me so we do not clutter the list too much. And have fun. Incidentally, all this (plus Agent Xavier rookie-style question about the cave's monicker) points to the necessity of an Ice Cave FAQ. We'll try and work one out during the weekend. And here I stop and go back to collating old messages. Take care. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #60 *******************************