From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #73 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Saturday, September 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 073 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:19:17 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Tradecraft, was: Nobody F*cks With The Mouse On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: [strip bar info stripped] > It is a bad place of course for female investigators. Unless they're: A) "That Way..." or B) A good dancer. The Man in Black is : crude like that. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:23:35 -0700 From: Dr Cthulhu Subject: Re: DG: Anthrax detector was:(no subject) Appelion@aol.com wrote: > I just (as in, now) heard that Eastern Washington (think Texas, but sillier) > University (more sillyness) got a 1.3 million military grant to develop an > anthrax detector. Supposed to be like a smoke detector. Why don't they just use ICAD's? they detect Anthrax. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:32:50 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Waco Goodies On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Phil A Posehn wrote: > Minor correction here. Back in the bad ol' days when my buddies and I > used to throw tear gas cannisters back at the police during a small > difference of opinion over interpretation of the 1st Ammendment we used > to get serious burns on our hands which were thermal, not chemical burns. > It is my humble opinion that tear gas cannisters generate sufficient heat > to ignite dry hay bales such as were used for makeshift armor in Waco. I > offer as further proof the SLA shootout in LA where the Gov't > acknowledged that the tear gas ignited the house.. That may be true, but the fact remains that the manual for said grenades never mentions "incendiary" like thermite and WP. And anyone who didn't realize that BATF was using CS needs a serious kick in the ass. Thus, the point was, that this recent "incendiary" bullshit is crap, because those devices were fully accounted for and described properly. It also has no bearing on the intent of those BATF morons who, contrary to expert advice, initiated the raid during daylight hours, without negotiating an end to the Psych Warfare (Loud Music and Lights) and a bunch more tactics geared to CNN. The raid was the result of poor judgement from Koresh the Messiah and BATF. Fuck them all. I turned my television set to another channel a long time ago, and so should you. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:43:59 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: HK Pop and the Cave On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Davide Mana wrote: > Anyway, the MiB asked > > >> And thanks to HK popstar Gigi Leung, that provided an essential bit of > >> software saving the day (don't ask). > > > >Too bad. I'm Askin'. What's up with that? > > OK > Miss Leung's latest outing in the HK pop arena - which I purchased for a > lark and found not to be close to my tastes when HK pop is concerned - is > called "Fresh" and comes with a CD-Rom filled with a wealth of > net-oriented stuff, starting with a fully paid subscription to a Hong Kong > ISP, a copy of the latest Netscape (Chinese Version), and various other > utilities, the idea being to put all Gigi Leung fans online. > > [considering my current ISP tragedies, I'm seriously considering moving my > accounts to HK - downloading mail is expensive as hell through > intercontinental, but the service can't be worse than the one IOL is giving > me currently] I am truly, deeply, sorry. > And here I stop, but not before I throw a wild menace on the list: > > The MiB as self-admittedly chickened-out of the NPC thing (unless that was > a feint, ofcourse). > As soon as I get back to full operational, I've half an idea of starting a > "Submit Your MiB Sheet" competition. I don't see why y'all can't use the stats for BEAVER, Giant. Bring on enough MiB and we'll build a dam. The Man in Black is : admiring his shiny things. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:40:07 -0400 From: becole@juno.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Lending a "Hand" This is the problem with the Internet, tons of reference, tons of good links, little content........ On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:27:21 -0400 (EDT) The Man in Black writes: > Read it again, bullets tumbling around in the body is a myth > exposing the gullible and functionally illiterate. They don't bounce around the > spine, when a bullet hits bone it usually comes to a nasty gruesome > splintering stop. However, they mostly they just glance off and exit the body. Okay, Bucky, since you seem to be pissing everyone off today........ Let's take a quick jaunt through the Emergency Way Surgery manual......taken from the Emergency War Surgery NATO handbook....we've heard of NATO, right? ( Its also on your Roody-Poo, Candy-Ass, soccer-mom web site that you mentioned) Under pp27-29, MISSILE CAUSED WOUNDS Under the subsection 22 CAL FMC -"This is the M-193 bullet shot from the M16A1 Assault Rifle....The military round is full-metal-jacketed, and, as with other bullets of this type, it causes little tissue disruption so long as it remains travelling point forward through the tissue. Its average distance of point-forward travel is about 12cm, after which it YAWS to 90 degress, flattens, and breaks at the cannelure (groove around the bullet mid-section). The bullet point remains a flattened triangular piece, retaining about 60% of the original bullet weight. The rear portion breaks into as many fragments that penetrate up to 7 cm RADIALLY from the bullet path..The degree of bullet fragmentation decreases with increasing shooting distance, as striking velocity decreases..."YADA YADA YADA Hmmmmmmm...yaw, I think I heard that word mentioned, damn, where's old Roget when you need him?????? Nasty wound-channel diagrams not scanned for brevity's sake.... Under the subsection M-855 22 CAL FMC- "The slightly heavier M-855 bullet shot from the M16A2 Assault Rifle will eventually replace the M-193 (duh).....the wound profile is similar to the M-193, although the tip generally does not remain in one piece. ...The smaller bullets of the new generation of assault rifles are susceptible to deflection and disturbance of their point-forward flight by intermediate targets such as foilage. This can result in large yaw angles at impact and a shallower location in the body of maximum tissue disruption. For these bullets that rely on yaw in tissue for their maximum effect, the wound profiles show the average penetration depth at which this yaw occurs." And just because I especially don't like your cyber-tone this evening, let's hop backwards to pages 17-18 >Also consider that Hydrostatic Shock is essentially an unscientific > myth, bullets do not produce cavitations that resonate. Save your bodily function descriptions for alt.fart.bathroomhumor, the HydroStatic in this case, would seem to be the tissue disruption caused by a bullets penetration of the tissues of the body.....how the hell did you ever come up with the notion of resonation from a wound channel? (And can you send those interested parties samples of the causitive agent?) MECHANISMS OF WOUNDING "The typical wounding potential of a given missile can be assessed by measuring the two types of tissue disruption it produces. After passage of the projectile, the walls of the permanent cavity are temporarily stretched radially outward. The maximum lateral tissue displacement delineates the temporary cavity. Any damage resulting from temporary cavitation is due to stretching of the tissue. Resistance or vulnerability to stretch damage depends mostly on tissue elasticity. The same stretch which causes only moderate contusion and minor functional changes in relatively elastic skeletal muscle, can cause devastating disruption of the liver. The result of temporary displacement of tissue is analagous to a localized area of blunt trauma surrounding the permanent cavity left by the projectile's passage....The sonic shock wave seen at the far right of the absent Figure 3 preceds the projectile's passage through the tissue. Though the magnitude of the sonic wave may range up to pressures of 100 atmospheres, its duration is so brief, about 2 miscroseconds, that it does not displace tissue." In this case, there is such a measurable quantity as a hydro(body's water trapped in tissue) +static wave, and, by inference, we can assume that it is simultaneous with the shock of muscle and tissue stretched rapidly, and just as rapidly collapsing on the cavity that "pushed" it out of the way, therefore.......(still with me?) you get hyrdostatic shock.. why THAT particular name? I don't know, scientists are bored people..but the concepts ARE true....are they all interconnected? Good question...the guys in the lab make the gelatin and shoot the gelatin, but they won't throw us a bone on putting other tissue bodies in the gelatin for measured effect of localized penetration and any damage from the pressure wave. I'll cede this point as a half victory, simply, we are both right and we are both wrong..... Nevertheless, your Red-Shirt-Security Team antics are a little beyond my digestable quantity today..... I hope it comes as no surprise when I say that I WOULD LOVE to come visit your Proving Grounds and Gunnery Range..... You may declare the First-Person Shooter of your choice, you may also choose the arena of combat and the providing service (I only ask in the interest of expediency that it NOT be a pay-as-you-play site).... Depending on your choice of game, I may require 24 hours to acquire said Mechanism-Of-Your-Destruction (tm) At such time as I have acquired said Mechanism, an e-mail will be sent to you off-list informing you of my readiness for your SMACK DOWN, at such time as you recieve said e-mail, I will need from thirty to ninety minutes to travel to a T-1 providing site to load said game, configure said game, and then connect to the service that you indicated and wait for your Roody-Poo butt...... After that, I will gladly show you why I am known by the darker of my aliases, -B (you do realize this means war, right?) "And, in retrospect, may we ask why this weapon was unleashed upon the civilian population of the country, Lieutenant Aspen?" "Remember what you told me when I got here, sir? You told me that you wanted to win....." ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:59:58 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Waco Goodies On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Dr Cthulhu wrote: > The Man in Black wrote: > > > > > They needed to search the compound for evidence of Automatic Firearms > > Possession. Arresting him without scooping up a bunch of evidence would be > > pointless. Busting up the Compound would also allow some probing into > > those real or malicious Child Abuse allegations. > > Not true, they had evidence that he was selling the Full Auto > conversions to people, they had set up a sting from what I remember and > he sold 5 or 6 full auto rifles to some undercover agents and they let > him go because they wanted to do it again to get in caught in the act, > how ever they still could of arrested him. Also the Child abuse tales > have been proven to be false. The FBI had 0 evidence that he was doing > any thing to the children and none of the dividians said he abused them, > nor molested the children. IT DON'T MATTER.. etc etc. They were looking for a big pile of rifles to seize for the cameras, and it didn't take an idiot to figure out where he had them. Busting him in the compound would make a good perp-walk (a tactic the police do when they want public opinion) The best example of this was when a Sheriff in Arkansas dragged one of the most prominent lawyers in the city into jail during halftime of SuperBowl Sunday. This was sheer brilliance as far as PR was concerned. Free advertising during the best timeslot on TV. Whether or not Koresh was raping everyone under the age of 18 in the compound with rusty 6" pipe, or if he never layed eyes on them is irrelavant. That's the complaint on the search warrant, and the compound was where that warrant needed to be executed. I said "real or malicious" remember? It's right up there if you need to see it again. > where over 7 used. there there is the fact that there was a tank that > suck its barrel in the house, and then that spot where the tank breached > the house wall was the place where a fire broke out minuets after. Yeah, the FBI has lots of flamethrowing tanks. But I am nauseated by the whole matter. If Koresh had walked his sorry cult of assholes out the front door, 75 stupid people would be alive today. I am sickened and disgusted with the mere thought of continuing this discussion. I hereby swear to discuss this stupid Waco Crap ever again. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:25:43 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Skill levels in CoC / DG On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 Appelion@aol.com wrote: > The IRS still has to make sure everyone has supplies, a case to work on, etc. > My dad works at R.W. Beck Inc. They design dams. But Mr. Beck doesn't. I wish that this supposed argument was coherent enough for me to understand. Do you propose that the IRS Commish should not have Accountant? I think you are not grasping my basic premises, that 90% is the best in the world, utterly earthshaking, and capable of tremendous feats of power. I'll assume that R.W. Beck's CEO is an Executive, not an Engineer, but a few points in Engineer (Dam) might help. Defending my IRS example (which has nothing to do with my original point) I would say that the Accountant Skill incorporates more than mere bean counting, especially at the higher levels. One becomes able to pick out financial correlations like how the rise and fall of Mary Kay Stock (before she went private) matched Gold Values very closely. As skill approaches 80% one becomes more and more able to analyze and effect finances, on a corporate, multinational, and governmental level. Once 90% is attained, then Financial influence becomes so great that every decision (roll) is monumental. This is Alan Greenspan. When he says he don't like certain numbers and is thinking about cranking the FDIC up a point or something, then markets and banks worldwide scramble to take action. Usually he's right,and inflation is controlled. The IRS is also like this, when Rossotti decides to switch the IRS from UNIX to Win 2000 the taxes of America are screwed. If he wants to reorg a fund that pays out sums to the military, and it gets locked up, then National Security is FUBAR. If he decides to overlook BCCI activities in order to collect some if not all of the money being laundered then Arms Dealers, Narcotics Trafficers and others continue business as usual, and the USA gets a cut. People below this level of Accounting will have great difficulty accomplishing these tasks. For some, it is essentially impossible without some sort of miracle. Note that I always require roleplaying before you even get a chance to roll. There are no free rides in the Campaign in Black. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:31:44 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: (no subject) <- Anthrax Detector On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 Appelion@aol.com wrote: > I just (as in, now) heard that Eastern Washington (think Texas, but sillier) > University (more sillyness) got a 1.3 million military grant to develop an > anthrax detector. Supposed to be like a smoke detector. Nope. Biological detectors (last I checked) work like this: 1) Wipe gunk with Q-tip 2) Stick Q-tip into a PDA sized box (possibly connected to a laptop) 3) wait for it to ding with a list of possible pathogens. I'm guessing that the Anthrax one is going to be more along the Mass-produced variety. Something like a button that you peel a strip of plastic paper off of, revealing a gunky sticky surface that traps particles and changes color when a critical mass of Anthrax (the BioWar Agent, not the Heavy Metal Band) sticks to the strip. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:34:16 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Re: "Hand" Grenade On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Dr Cthulhu wrote: > Now MiB I think your painting this with too broad of a brush. Who cares, how much plusses does it have? Does it do full damage to Shoggoths? What does this have to do with Hand Grenades anyway? How many plusses do they have? The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:57:03 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Auto's in Campaigns On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 Appelion@aol.com wrote: > blowing up and crashing. It could be deeper, and you could delve into > "vehicle as metaphor" but that sort of allegory is just creepy in a RPG. >> > We had a steel-plated (think Mad Max) VW bus. Go analyze Oh, THAT's Subtle. Did the Speedwagon boys cut your brakelines on the first game day or did they wait until nightfall? Then again, it does have that A-Team vs. MacGyver feel to it: http://www.lightlink.com/grudge/old/ateam-macgyver.html Geez, I bet the BUS o' DOOM took a lot of welding. Where do you go to get one of those apocalyptic vehicles of perilous peril anyway? The Man in Black is : learning to eld in seven easy steps. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:58:51 -0700 From: Dr Cthulhu Subject: Re: DG: (no subject) <- Anthrax Detector The Man in Black wrote: > Nope. Biological detectors (last I checked) work like this: > > 1) Wipe gunk with Q-tip > > 2) Stick Q-tip into a PDA sized box (possibly connected to a laptop) > > 3) wait for it to ding with a list of possible pathogens. Not with the ICAD I was talking about, it detects clouds of things, be it mustard gas, tear gas, or anthrax gas, it detects forgin bodies in the air and warns about it by using a flashing lite or a audible siren. there are things that it can't detect but it does list anthrax as something it can detect. The military uses these things and they come in a wonderful shade of olive green, they also last for about 4 months befor the filter that they use has to be replaced. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:04:42 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Waco Goodies On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Phil A Posehn wrote: > That was pretty much my point. > I'm not suggesting that there was intent to burn the place down...merely > that it was possible in spite of denials and supression of data. Well, it's possible that a kid could have left his Buzz Lightyear (TM) Space Ranger toy on a window sill and Evil Buzz (TM) could have terminated the BD's with EP. Heck, it's BATF, maybe they were all smoking fat cigars and dropped some hot ash, thereby creating the world's most dangerous Cigar Bar. Next Reality Video produced by Hagbard McFadden "When BATF Attacks!" If that does well, I've pitched "When BATF attacks Nuts!" which should be rather groinal. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:21:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Pencis Subject: DG: Flame fizzle The MIB farted in my general direction.... >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 15:40:33 -0400 (EDT) >From: The Man in Black >Subject: Re: DG: Waco: environs and attitudes >On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Chris Pencis wrote: >[Links Terminated] >> 'Click - SuperDave is unavailable at the moment - please accept our >> stand-in AdequateChris' >Delusions of Adequacy. Gawd, I've been wanting to use that for a while. >YO MAMA Drinks Kool-Aid in Jonestown! Oh yeah... well.... um.... er.... grrrrr tbhtbhtbh - Nuf bandwidth wasting - gotta go polish my guns - I am a Texan you know (irony in this statement somewhere.) Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:24:29 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Waco Goodies In a message dated 99-09-17 17:35:08 EDT, you write: << Minor correction here. Back in the bad ol' days when my buddies and I used to throw tear gas cannisters back at the police during a small difference of opinion over interpretation of the 1st Ammendment we used to get serious burns on our hands which were thermal, not chemical burns. >> I thought I recognized you. Savvy protestors smear Vaseline on exposed skin and wear goggles and wet bandanas...and gloves. Mark McFadden Flyin' his freak flag ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:34:32 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Antares Underwater Telescope (LONG) On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Davide "Sub-Zero" Mana wrote: > So, what about this 6000 BC flood? > The idea behind it - unless people like Graham Hankock and his ilk have > messed up data even more - is, as a consequence of the last glaciation, a > lot of water (the Fluid Formerly Known as Icecaps) gets siphoned towards > Mediterranean. Water level increases of a few significant meters and a lot > of settlements are submerged. > Tough luck, let's call it The Flood. I have a theory that I call the Cosmic Urine Theory. In this theory, I propose that around 6000BC R'lyeh arose just long enough for the Almighty Cthulhu to wake up, rub his cyclopean eyes and check his rugose titanic package (almost as much SIZ as my EGO, and my "that other thing"). Then, after a bit of colossal meandering toward likely locations like the North Sea Basin, the Black Sea and France, the big C decided to fill the Meditation Sea with a long drawn out "Number One" with roots in aeons strange and ancient. This Ocean-Spawning urination filled the Madison Avenue and explains a lot about Southern Europeans, or anyone else on this list who might be pissed off by this contraversial theory. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:54:54 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Antares Underwater Telescope (LONG) In a message dated 99-09-17 20:22:33 EDT, you write: << The Mediterranean is currently in the grasp of a vice, with Africa pushing northwards as the Atlantic keeps spreading. >> Thrusting, ever thrusting northwards as the Atlantic spreads in invitation. Can you say Mandingo? Mark McFadden ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:42:56 -0700 From: Ted Arlauskas Subject: Re: DG: Mythos Bumperstickers etc Chris - I'm so happy I'm crying! I don't know how to thank you - I'm going to have a Miskatonic University sticker on my car again! I AM COMPLETE! Ah - sorry - it was time for my medicine. Seriously, thanks, Chris, those are great stickers. Wonder who'll get it when I put 'em on my car ... - -Ted >Here's a link to put in Section 8 - I don't recall seeing it previously at >the ice cave > >http://www.benwaytanner.com/ > >They make a lot of bumper stickers and such. My favorites are the >Miskatonic University Lambda Lot parking decal, Miscatonic University rear >window decal (ala Harvard), Innsmouth Community College Sea Devils and the >Miskatonic University - Home of the Fightin' Cephalopods! ted@naxera.com | Visit the LA Palm User Group Home Page http://www.naxera.com/ted | http://www.naxera.com/lapug ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:58:36 -0400 (EDT) From: John Petherick Subject: Re: DG: Nobody F*cks With The Mouse At 01:41 AM 9/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Club 33 is a private club "hidden" in the upper floor of one of the >>buildings in New Orleans Square. > >Those who have read DELTA GREEN: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT will know that >it's not just corporate America who pays visits to Club 33. > >be seeing you, >Alphonse > > You could also check out "Sewer, Gas and Electric" by Matt Ruff. It features a world destroying conspiracy hatched in Club 33. And a mutant sewer-dwelling Great White Shark is a principal character. ********************************************************************* John Petherick, CIH jpetheri@cyberbeach.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 00:37:24 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Antares Underwater Telescope (LONG) Cheers. My usual luck - my ISP goes bonkers and you guys start discussing my graduation paper. [so much so that I'm resending this - yes, this is take two] I'll bundle a few Mediterranean notions here, and hope to be able to expand on the subject later. The idea being, ask me specific questions if you like and I'll inv... sorry, research a reasonable scenario. I missed some of the original posts, and therefore I'll be answering to quotes - I hope I'll not be putting my foot in my mouth too often. Mark McFadden notes <<< The Med or Atlantic coast? Since the Med is such a new body of water, I suspect there would be no Deep One cities in the Med itself. >>> Sorry, old man, this one is wrong - or at least not exactly right ;>. [please notice this is the kind of argument that can keep geologists up all night debating and getting drunk] The Altantic Ocean opens up like a zipper from south to north starting about 80 million years ago, and is still going. But the Tethys Basin (of which the Med is a remnant) was already enplaced (and covering much of what would later become Europe and parts of Asia) 220 million years ago, when continents were still all grouped in a single landmass (Pangea). The opening of the Atlantic dissects the Tethys stranding the eastern tip of the basin in America, and leaving the rest in Eurasia. Later (let's say 60 millyon years ago) Africa moving northwards towards Europe as a result of the opening of the southern Atlantic, pushes a series of slices of Tethys north - the parts that get dry are called the Alps, the rest's the Mediterranean basin [I'm oversimplyfying, but you get the picture]. As already mentioned in an old post, you can find some critters (fishes, mollusca, algae too) in the Gulf of Mexico (the Basin Formerly Known as Tethys West) that are uncannily alike those found in the Mediterranean (TBFKa Central Tethys) and are not capable of swimming across the Atlantic waters. So, sorry, but the Med is a remnant of something much older. ObDG - personal pet theory: the Deep Ones hark back to this time, when a single large ocean (of which Tethys was a province) surrounded a single landmass. A lyrical moment - looking to the east of where I'm sitting right now, I can see hills made of materials that were deposited at the bottom of the rapidly retreating Tethys. And I spent considerable chunks of my youth walking across the bottom of a long dead sea. The planes that roar over my house causing the windowpanes to vibrate, would have been submarines less than ten millions years ago. Back to work, anyway. <<< Now, ancient Mediterranean Valley cities under water, stuffed with artifacts that weren't evacuated in time when the Gibraltar Ridge became the Straits would be more appropriate. IMHO. I've got no references for this, but it feels about right. >>> No questioning your feelings, Mark. And Mr Adam Crossingham replies >I think the Med flooded around 6000 BC (same time approx. as the North Sea >basin), though I'm sure Davide Mana could chip with more accurate dates and >info. Hmmmm - I guess we have a little bit of confusion. Nothing I can't increase, anyway. First - Mediterranean dessication, or, you can take a straight walk from Marseille to Alexandria on a clear day. About 6/5.5 million years ago the Med gets dry. Fact. Tons (and thousands of feet) of salt are deposited from the evaporating seawater. How does this happens - aha! Theories vary, and I won't repeat them here (this post will be long enough already). The Messinian Salinity Crisis is a small, concentrated instance of mass extinction - little of what's swimming in the Med befor the event (that lasted a postulated half a millyon years) is alive afterwards - algae, fishes, mollusca, plancton. All gone, or surviving in small niches retaining relatively normal conditions. ObDG - could this be a cause of mass migration for Deep Ones? And still Mythos-wise - a sudden increase in salinity can twist marine ecosystems in pretty weird ways. Not only the majority of the biotas died during the event, but before going they presented some pretty anomalous (Dunwich-like anomalous) specimens - deformed, afflicted by dwarfism or gigantism, crazy-looking and so twisted they could not even feed successfully, let alone reproduce. Science has an explanation. We might have others, right? The Mess. Sal. Crisis is the only documented instance of the Mediterranean drying up. So, what about this 6000 BC flood? The idea behind it - unless people like Graham Hankock and his ilk have messed up data even more - is, as a consequence of the last glaciation, a lot of water (the Fluid Formerly Known as Icecaps) gets siphoned towards Mediterranean. Water level increases of a few significant meters and a lot of settlements are submerged. Tough luck, let's call it The Flood. But we have to look at the thing the other way around to get what's happening actually - the glaciations that characterize the late Quaternary (please notice we are getting out of the last one right now, and have been for a while) cause a lot of water being stored as ice in continental icecaps - and this causes the Mediterranean level to drop (no more water is coming from the rivers, as the water that evaporates falls as snow and stays where it falls). The level drops so much that the sea-bottom at Gibraltar emerges, and the strait becomes a dam. The Med does not dry up - it simply becomes shallower, more salty and covers a (relatively) smaller area. Man arrives, builds cities by the sea and when the icecaps melt.... splash. Neat, simple, and wrong. Or at least not exactly right. While the Med sea level variation is impossible to deny - we find scars along the banks of the Nile near the older delta (now submerged) that record when the river entered the sea at a much lesser altitude - and the deglaciation effect can't be stressed enough, these events tell just a part of the story. The _other_ significant component of the whole process is... Neotectonics. >As to historical settlements, I'm not entirely sure. There are recorded >instances of Roman urban remains that rise and fall from the Med (due to >volcanism in the area, I think). Not volcanism (or not only, or not generally). The process Adam is referring to is caled "bradisism", and is a classical trait of the region surrounding good old mount Vesuvio (that mark should remember from his childhood). Volcanic activity in the area causes the earth to subside. But on a larger scale, it's not volcanism that screws up the lives of people living too close to the water in the Med. It's the general structural asset of the Med area. The Mediterranean is currently in the grasp of a vice, with Africa pushing northwards as the Atlantic keeps spreading. Imagine the kind of pressure that a continent can put on another. Pressure builds up, rocks deform and then, when they can't take any more, they crack open - earthquakes occur, with all their cargo of grief and drastic landscape modification. But during the build-up phase, vast areas of land are tilted, or uplifted, or sunk, in a game whose only aim is keeping a balance of forces. This slow, continuous variation in altitude over the sea level is called neotectonics. It's really hard to nail down, because it's relatively fast (a few man's lifetimes to appreciate the change) but it interests areas that are so wide that an observer _in_ the area can't notice. I was lucky enough, a few years back, to peruse some data (and sat pics) from the Jordan area, and some other stuff about Mediterranean coastal settlements (in Sardinia, in Northern Africa) Top-notch research financed by the Jordan Crown and backed by a US of A. Govt. agency that handles satellite imaging and stuff, can't remember the name.... Neotectonics was considered to be contributing no less than 50% of the displacement - so, if a certain Greek temple in Sicily is today under 100 feet of water, that means the sea rose of about 40 feet. The remaining distance was covered by the land sinking. And here I stop. I'll try and get the whole set of posts on this topic before my next message, and I hope you get this one. Take care. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:42:42 +0000 From: Malinda Brown Subject: Re: DG: Agents between Ops. >The Man in Black wrote: >Denial, and failing that, prescription drugs. Life is Hard. Already doing that, both the prescription drugs and the denial. Sometimes its all you can do. > > >First, A-cell or your DG contact needs to know about your superior and his >cozy affair with Mary Jane, just a simple precaution. It may be that your >superior will turn out to be trustworthy if confronted with evidence of >the preturnatural. If you are referring to your *DG* superior/Case Officer >etc. then you're fucked. Find a throwaway piece and get ready to kill >somebody. Cell A already notified of the situation. >Some DG buddies should surveil Mr. Majestic and Boss. It could be that >Boss is infiltrating MJ, or just plain blackmailing them for money. It >could be that MJ is blackmailing your Boss, maybe Boss is a long time >mole. You and your cell (and Delta Green) do not have enough information >to act. Therefore, gather more information until clear picture emerges. >Watch for signs of deception, don't draw conclusions prematurely. Great ideas here. I will have to put some of these into action. >> My agent has been trying to deal with these things I am just curious how >> others deal with it. Maybe we need to start a DG support group. > >Maybe we need to share our triumphs, small though they might be. Very well said. It difficult to remember sometimes that even the little things can change the world. Thanks for your responses on these questions. Malinda Brown "Nothing can bring you peace but yourself. Nothing can bring you peace but the triumph of principles." -R.W.Emerson "A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving" -Lao Tzu (570-490 B.C.) siatum@ou.edu see my web page at http://students.ou.edu/B/Malinda.R.Brown-1/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:59:25 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Exotic Fruit Greetings. >> Monitoring the vital PACific OverSector (PACOS) here in Hawaii, I can >> provide detailed information on Pineapples (or Ananas comosus >> Bromeliaceae) and the legend of this herbaceous perennial. MiB, I've never been so happy to get news from you. Ladies and gents, I'm back on line (and Echard's answer's to the MiB Pineapple post was the first mail I got after almost 48 hours). >Aaarrrgggghhh!!!! Please stop mentioning pineapples!!! Last weekend I found out [ >with the help of my friendly doctor ] that I am extremely allergic against fresh >pineapples. Unfortunately this was detected AFTER I ate 2 pineapples on my own. >I do not recommend anybody to follow my example. Sorry to hear about that, my friend, but nice to get your post anyway. Litigations with ISP are going on. take care and sorry for the waste of bandwidth. Davide Mana [allergic to nuts in general - no, really!] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 23:43:06 -0700 From: Gil Trevizo Subject: Re: DG: Waco Goodies At 05:05 PM 9/17/99 -0700, Dr Cthulhu wrote: >From the evidence that is public currently I don't believe that the >Dividians set those fires. The FBI says that they have audio tapes of >them saying "where is the gasoline" and "Hey start the fires" but when I >heard them on the news it sounds like "Whe..[static]" and "[yelling] ... >[interference]... fires". I don't know why the dividians would of set >them selfs on fire after the 50+ days of sitting it all out, if they >where a suicide cult they would of done it on the first or second day. Saw "The Rules of Engagement" documentary on Waco (think it might've been nominated for an Oscar) on HBO couple of days back... this very pro-Davidian piece played audiotapes of the Davidians saying just those kind of "start the fires" quotes quite clearly. Seems the Davidians had the bright idea to light up some Molotov cocktails as "defense" againt the FBI tanks. It seems concievable that no one, either the Davidians nor the FBI, intended that inferno, but that it a natural mistake. Gil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 09:21:02 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Auto's in Campaigns The Man in Black schrieb: [snip] > > > Bavarian policemen always have a Heckler & Koch MP5A2 with them on their > > patrol. It's in a sealed box in the roof area of the car. > > On the outside under the lights? Or on the inside? Inside. Of course. ECKHARD ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #73 *******************************