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To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org
Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #77
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deltagreen-digest    Wednesday, September 22 1999    Volume 02 : Number 077




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:45:42 -0500
From: "Shane Ivey" <sivey@zealot.com>
Subject: RE: DG: John Ford, the OSS, WWII and DG

Don't forget Julia Childs, about whom I DEMAND to see a write-up in the Big
WW2 Delta Green Book!



Shane Ivey, Editor and Webmaster, Zealot.com
Hecklers Online, Inc: www.hecklers.com - www.ant.com - www.zealot.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org
[mailto:owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org]On Behalf Of DHammann@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 1999 4:55 AM
To: deltagreen@nocturne.org
Subject: Re: DG: John Ford, the OSS, WWII and DG


Remember that the O.S.S. was a spy agency of civilians.  Unlike modern day
Delta Green, almost all the agents were not government officials, but were
the traditional Call of Cthulhu professions:  college professors,
ex-athletes, private investigators, European intellectuals, upper class
debutantes, former gangsters.....even artists and celebrities like Ford, and
Hemingway and Marlene Dietricht....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:46:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jason Newquist <jason@nocturne.org>
Subject: DG: ADMIN: No.  Really.  It *is* fixed.

Hey,

The mail blackout should be resolved for REAL this time.  *grrr*

- -Jason

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:45:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "" <jpetheri@cyberbeach.net>
Subject: Re: DG: RE: Leprosy (was:TV Warning)

On Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 08:42:24 AM, Shane Ivey wrote:

> Graeme, safe in Georgia, noted:
> 
> <<Note that some parts of the US (particularly the south east - Alabama and
> Mississippi [sic]) are still endemic for leprosy.>>
> 
> 
> Damn it.  I was really hoping the worst we had to deal with were ignorance,
> racism, cronyism, and Deliverance jokes.
> 
> 

Didn't you also forget fire ants, Africanized killer bees, and the possible resurgence of malaria?


========================================
John Petherick, CIH

e-mail: jpetheri@cyberbeach.net 


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jay W. Dugger" <duggerj@reed.edu>
Subject: DG: Heart of DG

On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Shane Ivey wrote:

> That moral grey area is the heart of Delta Green, to me.  Fighting the good
[snip]
	Hear! Hear!
[snip]
> possibly disintegrating society as we know it.  breaking and entering,
> abduction, murder, and torture are par for the course in most Delta Green
> games that I know about; if your players aren't roleplaying their

	IME, crimes such as B&E, abduction, murder, etc. are not only par
for the course, but any qualms PCs have about doing such things quickly
vanish with the excuse--"This is a Night at the Opera, after all."

> characters' guilt and inner conflict about those things, as Keeper you
> should set the tone by making sure that the NPCs around them are conflicted,
> enough to make the players feel (quite properly) like they are sociopaths
> for doing such deeds without qualms.  There should always be someone who is

	Ah, but since such moral conflict is the game's theme, I claim
Keepers must not only show NPCs' qualms, but must also set up Players for
this ethical corruption. If this isn't done, Delta Green becomes exotic
monster-hunting, like GURPS: Black Ops, and the unique virtues of the
setting vanish (Standard Disclaimer:If your group enjoys playing that way,
more power to you.)

> horrified by an evil deed which is done for the sake of safety, expediency,
> and a righteous cause.  And there should always be a more-or-less innocent
> bystander around to complicate the players' lives and allow for this sort of
> conflict.  Ideally, the players will be shaken by their moral quandaries and
> compromises before they ever face alien horrors head-on.

	Yes, and if needed the Keeper must dangle the innocent before the
PCs like bait. If they won't involve the naive, let the naive become
involved on their own. Better yet, make the innocent and naive victims of
malign forces (either Mythos or PC). Then what do your PCs do? I've seen
player-characters murder pregnant teenagers because they believed the
child was a Grey experiment. What would they have done if the girl had
simply seen too much? I've seen witnesses cold-bloodedly shot dead for
expediency. (Also lots of arson, but that's another story.)

[snip]
> decent citizens.  Your goal should be to present them with the realistic
> consequences of cruelty so that they can roleplay out the inner conflict (or
> the lack thereof, for sociopaths or those who have subjugated all morality
> for ideology) and decide whether it was worth it in the end--or whether
> things could have been done differently to finally save the day.  Chaosium's

	This is exactly why I think Morality makes sense in DG. We track
physical and psychologial injury with hit points and Sanity. I found
ethical corruption much worse than either. In a world of perfect
role-players you don't need either HP or SAN, but no one lives there. We
have game systems to encourage role-play, and I think Morality would add a
good deal to the game.

[snip]
> 
> As for SAN loss for doing harm to other people, I tend to be pretty vague
> about that and play it by ear, but I do believe in inflicting a SAN penalty
> for violence, of any sort.  The plainly observable psychological effects of
> real-world trauma fly in the face of the notion that player characters
> should suffer no ill effects from their experiences unless they deal with
> magic or monsters.  The reason I'm vague about it is that people can be
>
[snip]
	SAN loss for violence makes good sense now that you mention it.
I'd like to hear how other people do this. Any examples?

[snip-snip]

- ---------
Jay Dugger		:	Til Eulenspiegel
til_e@hotmail.com	:	duggerj@reed.edu
- ---------
Sometimes the delete key is your best friend.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:36:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel M Harms <dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: DG: John Ford, the OSS, WWII and DG

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Crossingham, Adam wrote:

> Gil Trevizo writes:
 
> <<< I'm still reading through a book called _Unholy Trinity: A History of
> Nazi
> Involvement with the Occult_ as part of never-ending research for that
> DG:WW2 site I'll probably never finish >>>
 
> Have you got an author or an ISBN for that title Gil? Amazon doesn't want to
> spill any beans on the book as you've posted the details here.
 
I think he means UNHOLY ALLIANCE, by Peter Levenda.

Yrs.,


Daniel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:49:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jay W. Dugger" <duggerj@reed.edu>
Subject: RE: DG: RE: Cops, cows, and exactly 1 on-topic paragraph which Iwould like responses to

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Shane Ivey wrote:

> Steve replied:
> 
> <<<
> >That moral grey area is the heart of Delta Green, to me.  Fighting the good
> >fight and standing tall before inevitable doom is all well and good, but
> the
> >inner conflict is what charges me about the setting.  Delta Green is
[snip]
> 
> I'd dispute that, given the prominent role of friendlies and other
> not necessarily law enforcement types in the game. Inner conflict,
> sure, but I tend to go more for the espionage model rather than
> Special Ops. You're fighting an enemy you know little to nothing
> about, for an organization you don't entirely trust, and you have no
> idea if you can even win.>>>
> 
> I think it's all part of the same program--it's a matter of timing, focus,
> and personal taste as to which elements get precedence.  I was referring to
> the standard central characters, who tend to be federal agents and
> spooks--that certainly isn't a given in every campaign.  Hence the
> (primarily) caveat; campaigns which focus on other sorts of characters will
> have a slightly different tone and will address the themes a little
> differently.

	Please give some examples. For instance, if you had a campaign
based on SaucerWatch, how would you treat this theme?
> 
[snip]

> My only concern here is that you're encouraging the "cowboy ops" side
> of Delta Green, if only rookies and noncombatant types suffer major
> SAN losses. How do you handle SAN loss from creatures, or the ever
> popular "You realize the implications of this widget for conventional
> physics"?>>
> 
> 
> I was referring to SAN loss for violent mundane encounters or events, which
> CoC doesn't even mention.  I use the traditional SAN rules for things which
> fly in the face of characters' grasp of reality:  Byakhees, extradimensional
> widgets, etc.
> 
[snip]
	Once again, I think a Morality mechanic would add a good deal to
Delta Green. Humanity worked well for V:TM, after all, by making players
focus on the risks of moral degeneration. (ABESTOS == 1)
- ---------
Jay Dugger		:	Til Eulenspiegel
til_e@hotmail.com	:	duggerj@reed.edu
- ---------
I like to beat dead horses and champion lost causes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:14:56 +1200
From: Williamson Mark <m.williamson@ace.ac.nz>
Subject: DG: Earthquakes - lots of earthquakes (repost)

Has anyone else noticed that their seems to be have been an unusal amount of
earthquakes recently (ie 50,000 dead in Turkey last month and a 7.6er in
Tiewan (sp?) yesterday (not to mention Greece))- makes you wonder what could
be causing increased Cuthoian (Sp???) activity.

Myabe someone has stolen Sheduel Mel's egg (sp - I have no idea how to spell
these mythos names) and the big mother Cuthoian is deperate to get it back.
She can sense it through the earths crust and is casuing earthquakes
wherever the people who have it stop. Ie they stole it in a Turkish mine and
are now in Sri Lanka. 

Maybe the people who have stolen the egg are planning to put it down on top
of R'leyh (sp???). After all big mumma Cuthoian is fatelly allergic to water
so to get her egg back she's going to mostly likly cause a BIG earthquake to
cause the egg (and R'leyh) to rise out of the water. This way she will get
her egg back without having to get wet (oh and incidenlty Cthulhu will
awake). Those nasty Cthulhu cultisits are up to no good again. 

Can you see a DG adventure/campaign in these events. Chasing those people
who have the egg - hoping it doesn't hatch when DG has it. Returning it to
mumma. Lots of falling down 'cos wherever they set foot on land Cuthoians
get there ASAP and who was it who stole the egg in the first place? 

- - Mark Williamson
(who went to school at a time when teachers thought kids learnt spelling by
osmosis - it turns out they don't)
_______________________________________________
If you do a lot of online shopping you might want to take a
look at http://www.ebates.com/index.jhtml?referrer=lizark
They offer additional discounts at the major online stores 
helping you save lots of money.

Or then again you might not

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:43:37 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn <paposehn@juno.com>
Subject: Re: DG: Earthquakes and the Mythos

Turkey and Greece are undoubtedly on the same plate so no big surprise
there, I don't know about Tiwan. I'll admit that when I majored in
geology long ago I paid a LOT more attention to the faults in Calif.
where I live.

In Whitley Streiber's novel, "Black Magic" he has the Soviets using 10Hz
VLF transmissions to cause mt. St Helens to erupt.  Karotechia might have
saved the research.

Phil

On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:02:56 -0400 "Jimmie Bise, Jr." <jimmiebjr@olg.com>
writes:
>Okay, so recently, we've had rather large earthquakes in Turkey, 
>Greece, and
>now off the coast of Taiwan. These things weren't exactly tiny. So 
>what I'm
>wondering is if we can get any expert commentary (Davide..wake up over
>there...) or some DG ideas out of them?
>
>-Jimmie
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:35:33 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn <paposehn@juno.com>
Subject: Re: DG: Nickel Shot

All Right. I've been waiting for one of the gunfondlers to field this one
but so far all of the replies have missed this use.

A LOT of US troops in Viet Nam used dimes in place of shot in their 12
guage shotguns. They caled them "Brushcutter rounds" because they would
tear the hell out of a section of jungle and acted like little frisbees
from hell on human tissue as well.

Of course in that era dimes were 999fine silver which gave them different
density than moders coins.

Phil Posehn


On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:51:32 -0700 Dr Cthulhu <drcthulhu@home.com>
writes:
>
>
>Don Juneau wrote:
>
>> i dunno - for
>> certain sure, you'll lose range and power, as the spinning/flipping 
>disks
>> aren't as aerodynamically stable as little round balls of shot.
>
>Well I don't think they would just spin around in the air, if any 
>thing
>they would heat up and bend in the center making a bullet like shape.
>The reason I speculate this is from the assination of that swiss 
>banker
>in the 80's. The people who killed him set up a sachel with 20 pounds 
>of
>TNT and a copper plate pointed at the car the guy was driving in, the
>plate spun the 1 ton armoured BMW. 
>
>I am mainly wondering what kind of dammage the dimes or nickels would
>make. Small holes, large holes, seperated, grouped close, et cetera.

___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:07:21 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn <paposehn@juno.com>
Subject: DG: Re: A little humour?

Has anyone tried running "The Madwoman of Chaliot" as a mythos adventure?
I saw the film on cable this week and liked the idea of eccentric street
people combating a conspiracy.

Phil Posehn


___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:23:39 EDT
From: LizardRoi@aol.com
Subject: Re: DG: Earthquakes - lots of earthquakes (repost)

In a message dated 99-09-21 16:14:42 EDT, you write:

<< Myabe someone has stolen Sheduel Mel's egg (sp - I have no idea how to 
spell
 these mythos names) and the big mother Cuthoian is deperate to get it back.
 She can sense it through the earths crust and is casuing earthquakes
 wherever the people who have it stop. Ie they stole it in a Turkish mine and
 are now in Sri Lanka.  >>

 I was just doing a Lizard Mindmeld(tm) with the egg. It said "Pain. 
Paaaiiinnnn!"
 And, in sooth, it was so uncomfortable that I nearly showed some emotion.

M'ark Mk'fadd'n
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:52:08 EDT
From: LizardRoi@aol.com
Subject: Re: DG: Nickel Shot

In a message dated 99-09-21 17:02:38 EDT, you write:

<< A LOT of US troops in Viet Nam used dimes in place of shot in their 12
 guage shotguns. They caled them "Brushcutter rounds" because they would
 tear the hell out of a section of jungle and acted like little frisbees
 from hell on human tissue as well.
  >>

You're  flirting with the never-to-sufficiently-pimped RHODESIAN JUNGLE 
ROUNDS!!!!

Mark McFadden

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:14:37 EDT
From: Appelion@aol.com
Subject: Re: DG: RE: Cops, cows, and exactly 1 on-topic paragraph which Iwould like responses to

In a message dated 21/9/99 3:30:39, box_nine@ix.netcom.com writes:

>I think the reason Chaosium positioned investigators as fundamentally 
>decent people was the idea that civilization should be something 
>worth fighting for, even if the attempt is ultimately doomed.
>
This is also why I make DG good, and teach the agents to trust it.  MJ-12 
will also come over if you can make it clear to them that they will not 
survive.  Period.  The Mi-Go want all of our brains in cans, and they can 
probably get their way.  You will have a hard time spending the folding stuff 
from the inside of a little glass cylinder.

        Agent Xavier

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:29:02 -0700
From: Phil A Posehn <paposehn@juno.com>
Subject: DG: Re: Cops, cows, and exactly 1 on-topic paragraph which Iwould  like responses to

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:14:37 EDT Appelion@aol.com writes:
>
>In a message dated 21/9/99 3:30:39, box_nine@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>>I think the reason Chaosium positioned investigators as fundamentally 
>
>>decent people was the idea that civilization should be something 
>>worth fighting for, even if the attempt is ultimately doomed.


Waxing pedantic for a moment here...

This theme has always reminded me a lot of the Germanic/ Norse theme of
the Doomed Hero. The Wagnerian hero Sigfried never had a chance and
probably knew it on some level. This archetype runs , in fact fairly
gallops through myth. There's a reason for that. It resonates with
something deep within the psyche on some level.


Phil Posehn


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:45:50 -0500
From: "Shane Ivey" <sivey@zealot.com>
Subject: RE: DG: RE: Cops, cows, and exactly 1 on-topic paragraph which Iwouldlike responses to

<<
> I think it's all part of the same program--it's a matter of timing, focus,
> and personal taste as to which elements get precedence.  I was referring
to
> the standard central characters, who tend to be federal agents and
> spooks--that certainly isn't a given in every campaign.  Hence the
> (primarily) caveat; campaigns which focus on other sorts of characters
will
> have a slightly different tone and will address the themes a little
> differently.

	Please give some examples. For instance, if you had a campaign
based on SaucerWatch, how would you treat this theme?
>>

Well, if I was running a campaign based on SaucerWatch, Delta Green would
still be a major part of the story, but behind the scenes:  it would be part
of The Big Conspiracy which the players investigate, and they would
gradually have to figure out that there's not just one Big Conspiracy, there
are two--but no, there are three, or four, or a dozen, all with different
designs, and most of them utterly malevolent and deadly.  In fact, Delta
Green itself would seem to be just as deadly as the rest, unless the players
could somehow establish trust with the agents:  picture Delta Green NPCs
with the paranoia and ruthlessness that we display in discussions here and
in our campaigns, and you'll get an idea what SaucerWatch player-characters
should be up against.

At some point, a SaucerWatch campaign should put the players into the
position of earning the confidence of Delta Green--or, if not earning its
confidence, then gaining potentially disastrous information and maneuvering
so that they can't just be annihilated (that would be the object of a great
scenario, I think).  Do the characters trust the suddenly desperate Delta
Green agent who tries to tell them that he or she is in the right and they
must do as they are told?  Do they go public with whatever secrets they have
uncovered?  Do they survive the NRO-Delta hit squad that comes after them
when they give too much away to the wrong contact?  If they reach a
compromise with Delta Green, do they manage to make themselves valuable and
trustworthy enough to not be assassinated as soon as they lose their hold
over the shadowy group?

From the outsider's perspective of SaucerWatch, in other words, Delta Green
itself will be a very sinister group, even downright evil, willingly
engaging in burglary, arson, assault, kidnapping, torture, and even murder
in pursuit of their private notions of right and wrong--then things get
interesting when the Mythos crops up, SAN rolls are made or blown, and the
player characters must decide who is on the right side.  The same questions
will still arise of how to deal with the Mythos and what compromises of
ethics and morality to accept in fighting it.

The same applies for any Delta Green campaign where the players are
traditional Cthulhu Now investigators:  you could run a campaign based on
Phenomen-X, or a hybrid campaign involving Phenomen-X and SaucerWatch as
civilians running into the fringes of Delta Green operations and eventually
getting deep into them, and reach the same issues.


Shane Ivey, Editor and Webmaster, Zealot.com
Hecklers Online, Inc: www.hecklers.com - www.ant.com - www.zealot.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org
[mailto:owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org]On Behalf Of Jay W. Dugger
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 1999 2:50 PM
To: Delta Green List
Subject: RE: DG: RE: Cops, cows, and exactly 1 on-topic paragraph which
Iwouldlike responses to

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1980 19:49:23 -0600
From: Janet Fougere <suds@telusplanet.net>
Subject: DG: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

Hello all, are any of the contributors still waiting for there copy, like myself?
I suspect Canada Customs has impounded mine because of the front cover 
and is busy beavering away at a major investigation ;-)

Cheers,
Don Fougere
meteorite@telusplanet.net

On Monday, September 20, 1999 5:07 PM, Daniel Harms [SMTP:dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu] wrote:
> At 10:54 AM 9/21/99 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >Here's a question for all of you luckly people in the world who 
> >own a copy of Countdown (mine, hopefully, is in the mail) - 
> >does Countdown have a large focus on Nazi's (like to cover 
> >portrays) - all the discussion on the list seems to have dealt 
> >with the British?
> 
> Here's a table of contents for Countdown - I don't think it's been
> done formally yet...
> 
> 
> S
> 
> 
> 
> P
> 
> 
> 
> O
> 
> 
> 
> I
> 
> 
> 
> L
> 
> 
> 
> E
> 
> 
> 
> R
> 
> 
> 
> S
> 
> 
> Introduction
> Chapter 1:  PISCES (includes insects from Shaggai, Army of the
> Third Eye material)
> Chapter 2:  GRU SV-8 (Russian paranormal agency)
> Chapter 3:  The Skoptsi (Russian cult)
> Chapter 4:  The Outlook Group (governmental research foundation)
> Chapter 5:  Phenomen-X (TV show)
> Chapter 6:  Tiger Transit (cult/smuggling operation)
> Chapter 7:  D Stacks (collection of artifacts)
> Chapter 8:  Keepers of the Faith (see FATE chapbook)
> Chapter 9:  The Hastur Mythos
> Appendix A:  Psychic Powers
> Appendix B:  Files of Professor Emerson (files on paranormal topics -
> excellent work, Graeme [I think Partridgeville's in New York, but 
> there's no need to call Andrea])
> Appendix C:  New Skills (3)
> Appendix D:  Adventures (3, 1st general, 2nd Hastur-related, 3rd
> Karotechia-related)
> Appendix E:  Agency Templates (fascinating reading, all)
> 
> 
> Daniel Harms     dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu
> The Internet:  Learn what you know.  Share what you don't.
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jay W. Dugger" <duggerj@reed.edu>
Subject: DG: Black Hat, White Hat, Grey Hat

Tuesday, 21 September 1999

Hey all,

	Has anyone run a game with some or all PCs working for MJ-12? If
so, I'd like to hear about it.

- ---------
Jay Dugger		:	Til Eulenspiegel
til_e@hotmail.com	:	duggerj@reed.edu
- ---------
Sometimes the delete key is your best friend.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:02:10 -0700
From: Joseph Camp <alphonse@delta-green.com>
Subject: Re: DG: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

>Hello all, are any of the contributors still waiting for there copy, like 
>myself?
>I suspect Canada Customs has impounded mine because of the front cover 
>and is busy beavering away at a major investigation ;-)

Hah! Some contributor copies have been delayed owing to chronic 
confusion, but Pagan tells me they'll be on top of it shortly.

Also, the www.delta-green.com and www.tccorp.com sites are moving to new 
hosts this week. There may be some down time and other weirdness.

be seeing you,
Alphonse

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:44:24 +1200
From: Williamson Mark <m.williamson@ace.ac.nz>
Subject: DG: RE: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

I'm still waiting for my copy and now you mention it I have noticed several
men in dark coats hanging around my workplace and there is a strange van
parked outside my house. Maybe contributing wasn't such a good idea :0

Have the contrabution copies been sent (I would expect pre-orders to take
first pirority)?

- -Mark

_______________________________________________
If you do a lot of online shopping you might want to take a
look at http://www.ebates.com/index.jhtml?referrer=lizark
They offer additional discounts at the major online stores 
helping you save lots of money.

Or then again you might not




> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Janet Fougere [SMTP:suds@telusplanet.net]
> Sent:	Thursday, 28 August 1980 1:49 pm
> To:	'Delta Green List'
> Subject:	DG: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?
> 
> Hello all, are any of the contributors still waiting for there copy, like
> myself?
> I suspect Canada Customs has impounded mine because of the front cover 
> and is busy beavering away at a major investigation ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Don Fougere
> meteorite@telusplanet.net
> 
> On Monday, September 20, 1999 5:07 PM, Daniel Harms
> [SMTP:dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu] wrote:
> > At 10:54 AM 9/21/99 +1200, you wrote:
> > 
> > >Here's a question for all of you luckly people in the world who 
> > >own a copy of Countdown (mine, hopefully, is in the mail) - 
> > >does Countdown have a large focus on Nazi's (like to cover 
> > >portrays) - all the discussion on the list seems to have dealt 
> > >with the British?
> > 
> > Here's a table of contents for Countdown - I don't think it's been
> > done formally yet...
> > 
> > 
> > S
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > P
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > O
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > L
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > E
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > R
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > S
> > 
> > 
> > Introduction
> > Chapter 1:  PISCES (includes insects from Shaggai, Army of the
> > Third Eye material)
> > Chapter 2:  GRU SV-8 (Russian paranormal agency)
> > Chapter 3:  The Skoptsi (Russian cult)
> > Chapter 4:  The Outlook Group (governmental research foundation)
> > Chapter 5:  Phenomen-X (TV show)
> > Chapter 6:  Tiger Transit (cult/smuggling operation)
> > Chapter 7:  D Stacks (collection of artifacts)
> > Chapter 8:  Keepers of the Faith (see FATE chapbook)
> > Chapter 9:  The Hastur Mythos
> > Appendix A:  Psychic Powers
> > Appendix B:  Files of Professor Emerson (files on paranormal topics -
> > excellent work, Graeme [I think Partridgeville's in New York, but 
> > there's no need to call Andrea])
> > Appendix C:  New Skills (3)
> > Appendix D:  Adventures (3, 1st general, 2nd Hastur-related, 3rd
> > Karotechia-related)
> > Appendix E:  Agency Templates (fascinating reading, all)
> > 
> > 
> > Daniel Harms     dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu
> > The Internet:  Learn what you know.  Share what you don't.
> > 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:54:24 -0700
From: Joseph Camp <alphonse@delta-green.com>
Subject: Re: DG: RE: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

>Have the contrabution copies been sent (I would expect pre-orders to take
>first pirority)?

Some of them were sent, but another batch is waiting. Pagan had some 
confusion as Tynes arrived back from three months away just as Glancy 
left for a month or more; they seem to be swapping sabbaticals.

be seeing you,
Alphonse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:31:00 -0500
From: "Shane Ivey" <sivey@zealot.com>
Subject: DG: RE: Black Hat, White Hat, Grey Hat

I'm including the option in a scenario that's now being polished up, but I
haven't actually played it out.  Has anyone tried it?

Shane Ivey, Editor and Webmaster, Zealot.com
Hecklers Online, Inc: www.hecklers.com - www.ant.com - www.zealot.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org
[mailto:owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org]On Behalf Of Jay W. Dugger

	Has anyone run a game with some or all PCs working for MJ-12? If
so, I'd like to hear about it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:45:57 -0700
From: Gil Trevizo <furrylogic@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: DG: John Ford, the OSS, WWII and DG

At 03:36 PM 9/21/99 -0400, Daniel M Harms wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Crossingham, Adam wrote:
>> Gil Trevizo writes:
>> <<< I'm still reading through a book called _Unholy Trinity: A History of
>> Nazi
>> Involvement with the Occult_ as part of never-ending research for that
>> DG:WW2 site I'll probably never finish >>>
> 
>> Have you got an author or an ISBN for that title Gil? Amazon doesn't
want to
>> spill any beans on the book as you've posted the details here.
> 
>I think he means UNHOLY ALLIANCE, by Peter Levenda.

Yes. Yes, he does.  The ISBN is 0-380-77722-3.  Barnes & Noble has it: 

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/

_Unholy Trinity_ (by Mark Aarons and John Loftus, available at Amazon) is
completely other book, that one of the Vatican's assistance in the ratlines
that brought Nazis to safety in South America.  I can see where I got them
confused: Levenda ends his book with a tirade against the Catholic Church
for this, seeing it as indicative of some greater evil conspiracy.

Gil

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:38:09 -0500
From: "Matt Cowger" <mcowger@kc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: DG: RE: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

> Some of them were sent, but another batch is waiting. Pagan had some
> confusion as Tynes arrived back from three months away just as Glancy
> left for a month or more; they seem to be swapping sabbaticals.

I got mine (not that I contributed to the book or anything), mostly because
I whined inccessantly via voice email and phone untill I was bought off with
a copy. Between that and 'Beyond the Mountains of Maddness' my free reading
hours pretty much have gone buh-bye.


Matt C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 10:26:08 +200
From: yanasikt@superonline.com
Subject: Re: DG: Earthquakes and the Mythos

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>In Whitley Streiber's novel, "Black Magic" he has the Soviets using 10Hz
>VLF transmissions to cause mt. St Helens to erupt.  Karotechia might have
>saved the research.
>Phil


In case of causing earthquakes and eruptions, should'n they use high frequency
transmissions ? 

Tolga Yanasik

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 01:11:20 PDT
From: "Stabernide -" <stabernide_@hotmail.com>
Subject: DG: Hellllllooooooo?

>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:41:27 EDT
>From: LizardRoi@aol.com
>Subject: DG: Hellllllooooooo?

>My turn. Haven't seen any List mail since 5:00pm PST.
>It's quiet.
>Too quiet.

>Mark McFadden

You should see the strange stuff going on with my digest. Surreal, even.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:14:29 +200
From: yanasikt@superonline.com
Subject: Re: DG: RE: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

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>Some of them were sent, but another batch is waiting. >be seeing >you,
>Alphonse


So, I'm in the other unlucky batch then. But nobody asked me for a mailing address.
Did you acquired it from my previous orders ?

Tolga Yanasik
..forgets he's talking with A-Cell.

You said who, Mr.Lepus ? No, I don't know who the heck is Alan Smithee. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:37:10 +0200
From: Jesper Jyhne <JEJU@int.tele.dk>
Subject: SV: DG: RE: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

> >Some of them were sent, but another batch is waiting. >be 
> seeing >you,
> >Alphonse
> 

Hmmm is this a batch of pre-ordered books to ordinary costumers or the
authors editions?

I am getting a bit impatience. And I even have to wait 12 weeks for the
stuff to get to Europe.
Has anyone in Europe received their edition send from Pagan?

Jesper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:58:40 +0200
From: Jesper Jyhne <JEJU@int.tele.dk>
Subject: SV: DG: RE: Anybody out there?

> 
> At 10:54 AM 9/21/99 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >Here's a question for all of you luckly people in the world who 
> >own a copy of Countdown (mine, hopefully, is in the mail) - 
> >does Countdown have a large focus on Nazi's (like to cover 
> >portrays) - all the discussion on the list seems to have dealt 
> >with the British?
> 
> Here's a table of contents for Countdown - I don't think it's been
> done formally yet...
> 
> 
> S
> 
> 
> 
> P
> 
> 
> 
> O
> 
> 
> 
> I
> 
> 
> 
> L
> 
> 
> 
> E
> 
> 
> 
> R
> 
> 
> 
> S
> 
> 
> Introduction
> Chapter 1:  PISCES (includes insects from Shaggai, Army of the
> Third Eye material)
> Chapter 2:  GRU SV-8 (Russian paranormal agency)
> Chapter 3:  The Skoptsi (Russian cult)
> Chapter 4:  The Outlook Group (governmental research foundation)
> Chapter 5:  Phenomen-X (TV show)
> Chapter 6:  Tiger Transit (cult/smuggling operation)
> Chapter 7:  D Stacks (collection of artifacts)
> Chapter 8:  Keepers of the Faith (see FATE chapbook)
> Chapter 9:  The Hastur Mythos
> Appendix A:  Psychic Powers
> Appendix B:  Files of Professor Emerson (files on paranormal topics -
> excellent work, Graeme [I think Partridgeville's in New York, but 
> there's no need to call Andrea])
> Appendix C:  New Skills (3)
> Appendix D:  Adventures (3, 1st general, 2nd Hastur-related, 3rd
> Karotechia-related)
> Appendix E:  Agency Templates (fascinating reading, all)
> 

Passed on this list, it doesn't look like there are anything about
Karotechia in the book (except the adventure). Or did I miss something? Are
there comming a DGEO book out on Karotechia?
Jesper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:44:22 +0200
From: Juergen Hubert <snjuhube@pop.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Subject: Re: In Character (was: Re: DG: Public Service:  The MiB)

> In a message dated 13/9/99 7:11:33, snjuhube@pop.rrze.uni-erlangen.de writes:
> 
> >Hey, as long as I have the chance to take many innocent people with me
> >as I go, I am all game...   ;-)
> >
> Damn straight!!!
> 
>         Agent Xavier
>         Takin' 'em with me to where it hurts
>         Last time.  I promise
> 

But I _would_ like to hear about it if someone uses me as an NPC, even
if it is post-mortem...

- - Juergen Hubert

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Walfrid Lindeman <hellandgore@yahoo.com>
Subject: DG: Waco

Re: all this Waco stuff you've been discussing lately,
and especially to those out there who "blame FBI, BATF
and Bill Clinton"; You should all read that book "A
force upon the plain" that someone mentioned a while
back. Just do it. Now.

Signing off
H&G

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:23:42 GMT0BST
From: Robert Thomas <ThomasR@cardiff.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: SV: DG: RE: Has everyone recieved there copy of DG Countdown?

Hey Jesper,

I ordered both limited edition books at the same time and when I 
did that I asked if it could all be shipped together with my copy of 
CD, guess I'm in the second batch as well.  The ltd books came 
last Friday and were both excellent.  Haven't had any trouble with 
the bindings either.

not much help but patience is supposedly a virtue lol still better for 
pagan to get the ones out to the paying customers first we want 
them to stay in business after all!

Rob.
> 
> I am getting a bit impatience. And I even have to wait 12 weeks for the
> stuff to get to Europe.
> Has anyone in Europe received their edition send from Pagan?
> 
> Jesper

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:37:08 -0700
From: "Steve Summersett" <khanavis@earthlink.net>
Subject: DG: A Road Trip

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Attention Powers That Be:
=20
I am actually going to Seattle this weekend for the CU/UW game.  I am =
interested in purchasing all the DG stuff I can get my hands on.  Can I =
buy it at Pagan itself?
Or must I wait until it is shipped to my gaming store here? =20
=20
Just a thought,
=20
Steve

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Attention Powers That =
Be:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I am actually going to Seattle this =
weekend for=20
the CU/UW game.&nbsp; I am interested in purchasing all the DG stuff I =
can get=20
my hands on.&nbsp; Can I buy it at Pagan itself?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Or must I wait until it is shipped =
to my gaming=20
store here?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Just a thought,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>Steve</FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:38:37 EDT
From: LizardRoi@aol.com
Subject: Re: DG: Waco

In a message dated 99-09-22 11:48:15 EDT, you write:

<< Re: all this Waco stuff you've been discussing lately,
 and especially to those out there who "blame FBI, BATF
 and Bill Clinton"; You should all read that book "A
 force upon the plain" that someone mentioned a while
 back. Just do it. Now.
 
 Signing off
 H&G >>

 Gosh, with an insightful and informative recommendation such as that, how 
could I not drop everything I'm doing and rush out to peruse this essential 
tome?
 You couldn't maybe expand a tad?
 Personally, I think of Waco as a monument to primate behavior, on everyone's 
part.

 Let's try looking at the sitch (as it's been officially presented) and give 
it a basic sanity check.

 You are a Fed. The situation (as far as you know) is:

 True believers have barricaded themselves in a compound. You know they are 
armed, because that what the whole exercise was about. There are children, 
who may or may not be abused. Naturally, you decide to err on the side of 
caution because of the presence of children. The adults are seen as militant 
believers in an Apocalyptic religion that is convinced that the Endtimes will 
be manifested by a New World Order which has already begun. Per Biblical 
prophecy, nations and governments will all turn evil when they become the 
tools of the Beast.

 So, given this situation, what do you think the mindset of these people will 
be when you assault their home dressed in Spec Ops black? What do you think 
their take would be if you circled the compound in black helicoptors? Would 
they be suspicious if you kept the press away from them? What do you think 
they imagine your motives are?
 Given the presence of children that society is trying to protect, would you 
turn off the water and power? One POV (the official one) was that Koresh 
didn't care about the children because he didn't hand them over to the Feds 
when they made the compound a miserable place to be. But inside the compound, 
what would your POV be of the Fed action? Would you (in the compound) doubt 
the official commitment to the children's wellbeing, since they turned off 
the utilities?
 And what would you (in the compound) make of the psych warfare concerts at 
night? One song played repeatedly was "These Boots Are Made For Walking", 
from which I quote:

 These boots are made for walking
 And that's just what they'll do
 But one of these days these boots
 Are gonna walk all over you.

 The message (whether intentional or not, but since the concerts were 
designed by psych professionals, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it 
was intentional) wasn't lost on the people in the compound. The song was 
cited in the aftermath trial.
 The concerts included amplified sounds of dolphins in pain and rabbits being 
killed. And the usual round of teeth-on-edge artificial sounds. 
 Inside the compound, you might doubt the sincerity of the government's 
concern for your children's wellbeing. 

 The Feds knew that there were no child-sized gas masks in the compound, 
because Koresh told them. But, they decided not to err on the side of caution 
when it came time to pump CS gas into the building. Maybe they didn't believe 
anything Koresh said.
 Would you (on the outside) seriously expect Koresh to believe anything you 
said, anymore?

 It was a piss poor situation for any sane negotiating. The Feds couldn't 
back down because a) people were watching and b) it's not in the nature of 
the beast.
 Koresh couldn't back down because a) his belief system didn't allow 
surrender to the Beast, and b) based on the events and the Feds track record, 
he had no reason to believe anything they said.

 "We are the government. We are not representatives of the New World Order. 
Never mind the helicoptors. We are civilians and this is a police matter, not 
a military assault. Never mind the tanks, helicoptors, armored vehicles, 
military personnel or Gulf War press access. Trust us, "

 No wonder only Jesse Jackson seems able to get American hostages released.

Mark McFadden
Doesn't think (in the RW) that there was a conspiracy, other than the usual 
attempt to coverup or deny a serial string of piss-poor decision making and 
simply bad ideas that shouldn't have been acted on in the first place. But 
then, I don't know any more about what REALLY happened than you do.

------------------------------

End of deltagreen-digest V2 #77
*******************************