From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #86 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Thursday, September 30 1999 Volume 02 : Number 086 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 07:05:33 -0700 From: tdenholm@orrtax.com (Thom Denholm) Subject: DG: Julia Child << Julia Childs served in the French Resistance during the war. I haven't been able to find an accurate account of her service, but one of my friends claims she was a sniper. He says he saw it on a documentary, but couldn't ID which one, so that might be wrong. >> <<1912-, American cooking teacher, b. Pasadena, Calif. She learned French cooking while her husband was in the diplomatic service in France.>> OK, to set the record straight: Julia Child and her future husband were involved in the OSS in China, mostly in logistics and paperwork (yep, could be spying too I guess). Later he was posted in the diplomatic service (post OSS) to France, and the rest of the biographical entry is true. This information from a recently relased excellent biography (ISBN withheld to annoy MIB) --Thom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:21:30 +0200 From: Juergen Hubert Subject: The Spirit of Nations (Was: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII) > > And as I am at it, I'd like to throw in another idea that might or might > not stimulate some DG-relevant condition. > > I'll talk about dark shadows. > No, not the horror sitcom. > About dark shadows settling on the spirits of nations. > People says that America was never the same after VietNam, that the war > cast a shadow on the nation's.... what? Self-confidence? Self-image? > Same probably goes with the Kennedy shooting. > > The same was said about Britain losing the Empire - they neer fully > recovered from the blow, they had this load of memories and so on. > > For Italy, it was the Second World War, a conflict in which we lost all > faith in our leaders, and we lost face as well, and we lost a relevant > portion of our own self-respect as a nation. The consequences of this > attitude, of this knowledge, are still influencing Italian culture and > society today, in ways I perceive but I'd take forever explaining. > > Did Russians experiment something similar when Communism cracked and > failed, and they had to sell MIR TV-time to banana commercials? > Did something similar happen in the mind of the Japanese when the Emperor > denied his godhood? > Do the Germans feel along these lines when they remember their involvement > in the Nazi killer pipe-dream? Well, speaking from a German perspective, I'd say that many, if not most Germans consider patriotism to be a concept irrelevant to their lives - indeed, being a German and proclaiming your patriotism will get you nothing more than queer looks - at best. If Germans identify with regions, then the region in question is either larger (the EU, or even the UN) or smaller than Germany (the "Bundeslaender", or "states" of Germany, or even the immediate surrounding area). John Aardagh quotes a German in his excellent book "Germany and the Germans" with saying: "I am Bavarian first, European second, and German third." - and that not just a lone, dissenting voice. As for as most Germans are concerned, Germany is just the sum of its parts. - - Juergen Hubert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:42:05 MST From: "D.L. Serius" Subject: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII >DHammann@aol.com wrote: >Pope Pius XII was a mediocre man - the wrong man for the wrong time - >but >that doesn't make him evil and he doesn't deserve the abuse >heaped on him. Why not? Every other leader has to face the music and take the heat. What makes this guy so special? >The Red Army was fighting so Central Europe could be ruled by a >ruthless, >murderous Russian Dictator, instead of a ruthless, >murderous German one. >It has always been a regret in America that >the Wehrmacht and the Red Army >did not obliterate each other. Easy there, chief. I doubt that the typical Red Army grunt had much thought for the political layout. He was more concerned with pushing the 'murderous' Germans out of his homeland. Sure, the Soviets have had their share of vicious bastards in command, but their standard dog-faces aren't much different than the Germans, or Americans, or Italians. Just some working stiff trying not to get his balls shot off. And I for one do NOT regret that the Wehrmacht and Red Army did not wipe each other out. I regret that their high generals didn't have to suffer like the troops. I hold the troops themselves in the highest regard.(Apart from the atrocity committing ones, that is.) >I can't disagree with you there . Here Here for the allied W.W. II >generation! Its too bad there were not many German willing to die >for >freedom from 1933-1945. Too many seemed to prefer to die >cowering in air >raids than taking on their own vile totalitarian >government. Even the >army officers who tried to assassinate Hitler >waited until all chance of >military victory was gone. And now for the reason I bothered to reply, the old bag on the German little guy. "He should've stood up" they say. "He should've died rather than go along" they wail. Well, I guess that just makes you so much better a person than me. Unless you have the numbers and guns for a full revolution, all you'd do is throw your life away. Not to mention the lives of your friends and families. Which of course you could do, shielded so well by your righteousness. If you expect the typical German citizen, with no power and no weapons to stand and fight an armed and ruthless government to the death how can you possibly excuse the half-ass efforts of the Pope? And to step briefly away from my rant, a question for some of the old - -timers out there who did a little civil disobedience in the US of A. Would you have done the same things you did if you and your family could be arrested, tortured, and killed? I'm too young to understand the mentality, were you guys that into 'fighting the power'? Big-D ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:34:33 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church Well, just wanted to throw out some RW history, opinions and possible DG use concerning the Nazis and the Catholic Church. First of all, Hitler, while born and raised as Catholic, rejected all forms of Christianity. He hated Christianity because it was first of all a Middle Eastern religion with Jewish history behind it. He hated all that Christianity stood for (equality, mercy, love, caring for the weak and so on). Under Hitler, Alfred Rosenberg developed a new religion known as Positive Christianity. This was revisionist religion that eliminated many of the foundations of Christianity, replacing them with an Aryan view of the religion (racial doctrine, glorification over the martyred hero over a crucified messiah and a Nordic value system). Rosenberg himself was both the leading supporter and follower of the Nazi ideology and religious beliefs, becoming the "spiritual" leader of the Nazi movement. He produced a dubious pamphlet called The Trace of the Jews in the History of the World and released a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, both of which were embryonic statements on the Nazi religious and racial doctrine. His "masterpiece" however was Mythus des XX Jahrhunderts (the Myth of the 20th Century) which he finished in 1925 and finally got published in 1930 in Munich. The book became the second leading bestseller in the Reich (Mein Kampf being first). Mythus outlined the Nazi blood mythology and Nordic spirit of the German people. It contained "scientific" and religious doctrine concerning the Nazi racial doctrine and spoke of the spirit of Wotan, which flowed through the Aryan blood. Rosenberg adopted this as a personal and national religious belief, going so far as to publicly attack Christianity as a whole and the Roman Catholic Church in particular (Amongst his attacks he even called the Pope a primitive medicine man, his practices a form of voodoo and the church was considered mongrelized). Only a religious system that held up the Teutonic/Neo-Pagan mythology and Aryan belief structure could be tolerated. Rosenberg considered his Positive Christianity movement as the vehicle for this change. During Hitler's rise to power he formed alliances with many of the religions in Germany. They were promised increased power and protection under the regime in return for an apolitical stance in Germany. The populace believed that freedom of religion would occur and the atheist Communists had suffered a defeat July 20, 1933 brought about a Concordant with the Catholic Church. Hitler promised greatly increased influence and freedom for the Church, scoring a diplomatic victory and forcing the Catholic Church out of German politics. Almost immediately following the signing of the treaty, however, Hitler began work to undermine and destroy the Catholic Church. In reality, many Catholic institutions were effectively taken out of the political picture (such as labor unions) and the Catholic Church was still to follow the national coordination movements of the Nazis. The Protestant Churches of Germany had a feud with Hitler that extended to the beginning of his rise to power. The Nazis pushed for a denouncing of the Protestant faiths and for a religion to be formed around the concept of Blut und Boden (Blood and Soil) and Positive Christianity. This faith was to be led by a group known as Deutsche Glabensbewegung (the German Faith Movement). Professor Ernst Bergmann prepared a paper consisting of 25 points in 1934. These points were designed to further outline the new German religion. Some of the beliefs outlined were that Hitler was the messiah, the Swastika replaces the sword as a symbol of German Christianity, the Old Testament and many parts of the New Testament are unsuitable for German beliefs and Christ was not a Jew but a Nordic warrior who died a hero's death saving the world from Jewish influence. Bergmann also laid out the belief in a German God versus an international one because he believed the Christian God had abandoned Germany and a renewed belief in a German God would guarantee victory. The group wanted to turn Christmas into a pagan observance of the solstice, banned Christmas scenes and practices and undermined the concepts of birth, marriage and death. All members of the German Civil Service were expected to join. An understanding was reached for a while with the Protestants. A protest group was formed, however, to maintain religious purity when Hitler appointed a Reich bishop. This group was known as the Bekkenntniskirche (Confessional Church). The group issued a declaration that Christian beliefs were not compatible with the Nazi Weltanschauung (World-view or doctrine). Hitler attacked the Protestant Churches by closing their schools, seizing property and driving away pastors. Many pastors gave into the regime but some continued to oppose it. 7000 ministers joined the Confessional Church. Many of these paid with their freedom and/or their lives. The other ministers joined under Nazi appointed Reich Bishop, Ludwig Muller, an ultranationalist and anti-Semite who coordinated the Protestant faith under Hitler. The Catholic Church also suffered. Trumped up charges of gold smuggling and immorality were levied against priests, monks and nuns. Religious presses were censored, processions banned from taking place, monasteries closed and so on. Propaganda flooded out condemning the Church. The Catholic Church responded in kind. Members of the Church defied the regime. The ArchBishop of Munich-Freising, Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber was one of them. When threatened with arrest, the ArchBishop was granted status as a Papal Legate and given diplomatic immunity. Von Faulhaber continued to steer a middle road for the church in Germany until the end of the war. He secretly aided Jews during the Hitler regime and had contacts with the German resistance while publicly supporting Hitler. Pope Pius XI issued a declaration in March 1937, which was read in every Catholic Church. Named Mit brennender sorge (With Deep Anxiety), the declaration accused the Nazis of breaking the Concordant and attacking the Catholic Church. Renewed attacks on members of the Church were the response to the statements. World War Two ended the overt war against religion in the Reich. Religion was used to assist in morale boosting efforts amongst both the troops and populace. Hitler didn't give up his battle; he just hid it under the surface. As for the Popes, there were two during the Hitler regime: Pius XI (Pope from 1922-39) and Pius XII (Pope from 1939-58). Without rehashing a lot of the biographical data already provided to the list I want to instead throw out some opinions of my own. The Church was in an unenviable position. There was no love lost between any of the religious leaders and the Nazi Party. What did the Pope (and other church leadership of all faiths) do? They dealt with the devil to preserve something. It was not the most heroic stance by any means but probably the most realistic. They gave public support to save their Churches and members while in many cases carried out quiet resistance and hid Jews. What alternative did any of them really have? If they had stood their ground, Hitler would have destroyed them and placed puppets in their place. He had already shown that with Nations that drifted from the party line. Calling out against the Holocaust in 1942 would have called down a swift retribution, as the Nazis wanted silence on the subject. Were any of these men saints? No, but how many people really are in cases like this? If we want to accuse them of dealing with the devil, we have to dig up a whole can of worms concerning everybody's collaboration: American companies and newspapers, Allied politicos, Swiss bankers, members of every occupied nation that in some way aided the Nazis, and so on. How many people truly resisted? A small percentage of the populace. How many Allied leaders condemned the Holocaust during the war years? Not very many loud voices there and they had the benefit of being outside occupied Europe and engaged in a war with the Reich where it might have made some propaganda use. What the religious members of Europe were was the same as any people in the same situation, some were realists and survivors, some were martyrs and some were collaborators. Do condemn those survivors for being human is unjust in my opinion. Also, we have to look at the Catholic Church from its perspective. It has a very checkered past but again, what religion doesn't. They also feel under siege from many quarters. In regions were the Catholic Church is dominant, prejudice against other religions happens. The reverse is also true, though. I personally have heard rants by acquaintances attacking the Church because its rituals are different from their own. I've heard long ramblings about the corruption of the Church and how the Pope is the antichrist. The Church is no more or less corrupt than any other institution but these attacks continue to happen. Is the Church completely pure or completely evil? It is neither, just an institution with its view on the world that it wishes to push. I'm sorry, but even as a (very) non-practicing Catholic, this kind of stuff annoys the piss out of me. Having someone that doesn't know much about the Church essentially telling me about how wrong my religion is and using some of the more ridiculous propaganda just reminds me of a form of Nazism. Religious debate is fine or fictional religious representations (actually both are quite enjoyed) but out and out attacks on someone's faith is a big pet peeve. Now what does all this mean for DG? During WW2 operations, the Church can provide an interesting gray area for agents. It will sometimes be an ally and sometimes be an enemy while it pursues it's own agenda and mythos war. Individual members can be varied, some as collaborators and some as allies against the Nazis. Like DG and MJ in Rules of Engagement, strange alliances can be formed on a temporary basis to further one or the others agenda. Those Nazis that were allowed to escape, what did they offer? Like Operation Paperclip, are there new additions to the Vatican's Library? What traces of corruption were left by this contact? What new orders sprung up after the war to battle this sort of evil? The Church probably has a lot of information and contacts throughout the world that can be of great use to DG, allies hidden amongst the orders and a world-wide network of safehouses (in the guise of Church property) that might be made available. With the Church being very strong in Central and South America, they could be waging a bit of war against the Karotechia, maybe as much as atonement for alleged past sins as to combat evil. And again, there will be corruption within the Church from both real world dealings and mythos taint for agents to encounter. Just remember to run the Church as a real institution, with good and bad because it is made up of real humans, and not just as a cardboard cutout of either good or evil. Sorry for the long rant… - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:23:23 -0400 From: "McGloin, Michael" Subject: RE: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII "If a brilliant statesman like John Paul, our current Pope, was leading the Vatican then things might have been different, but Pope Pius XII was a mediocre man - the wrong man for the wrong time - but that doesn't make him evil and he doesn't deserve the abuse heaped on him." Maybe you ought to look into John Paul's connection with Opus Dei, the fascist Roman Catholic organization, before you praise him too much. The high regard he has for rather dark figures in the anti communist movement. The church's record on fascism still isn't very good. Michael McGloin > -----Original Message----- > From: DHammann@aol.com [SMTP:DHammann@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 8:00 PM > To: deltagreen@nocturne.org > Subject: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII > > In a message dated 99-09-29 17:09:27 EDT, you write: > > << I do not think that Hitler would have ever dared to destroy the > Vatican! > > He ordered Paris to be destroyed, but luckily he didn't have enough > faithful > followers with the means by then, By his order he did have the entire > Polish > intellectual class liquidated and several Central European towns. That > was > the Vatican's fear, that once the Defeat of the Third Reicht was ensured > Hitler, and Himmler didn't have to care what the German populace thought > when > it came to wrathful acts of revenge. > > > Personally I think that, while I appreciate that Pius saved 800,000 [ if > this is > true ], I'd just say: "Hey, he's the pope! It's or should be his fucking > job > to > fight everything that inhumane or plain evil!" > > Noble but not realistic, the Pope is the spiritual leader of the Roman > Catholic Church, the Church and its followers are his first priority. If > a > brilliant statesman like John Paul, our current Pope, was leading the > Vatican > then things might have been different, but Pope Pius XII was a mediocre > man - > the wrong man for the wrong time - but that doesn't make him evil and he > doesn't deserve the abuse heaped on him. > > For me the real heroes of WWII were the ordinary allied [ Red Army > included ] soldiers, > > The Red Army was fighting so Central Europe could be ruled by a ruthless, > murderous Russian Dictator, instead of a ruthless, murderous German one. > It > has always been a regret in America that the Wehrmacht and the Red Army > did > not obliterate each other. > > regular citizens that risked or lost their lives, health or > sanity in the war against Germany, may it be during air raids over the > valley of > the Ruhr, in Northern Africa or on Omaha Beach. It may sound pathetic, > but > as a > German born only 27 years after WII, I am really thankful to those guys, > since it > is their sacrifice that enabled me and my fellow Germans to live in a > free > nation and do what I want to. >> > > I can't disagree with you there . Here Here for the allied W.W. II > generation! Its too bad there were not many German willing to die for > freedom from 1933-1945. Too many seemed to prefer to die cowering in air > raids than taking on their own vile totalitarian government. Even the > army > officers who tried to assassinate Hitler waited until all chance of > military > victory was gone. > > D.S.H. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:34:58 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church Good evening. USFORREC1@aol.com schrieb: [snip] > First of all, Hitler, while born and raised as Catholic, rejected all > forms of Christianity. >From my point of view a natural development. But seriously: Being raised a Christian and close contact to priests and other religious activists can definitely make anybody become an atheist or agnostic [ at least ]. And most people are just Christians because they got baptized as babies. I've been raised a protestant and changed to a combination of atheist and agnostic in my late teens. I chose to leave the church at 25. The main reason for this last step was that I did not want to pay the church tax. [ One of the strange things in Germany: The government, the tax agencies collect money for the main churches ] [snip] > Under Hitler, Alfred Rosenberg developed a new religion known as Positive > Christianity. I always wondered how a man with the name Rosenberg could be an important figure of Nazi Germany. [snip] > An understanding was reached for a while with the Protestants. A protest > group was formed, however, to maintain religious purity when Hitler appointed > a Reich bishop. This group was known as the Bekkenntniskirche (Confessional > Church). The group issued a declaration that Christian beliefs were not > compatible with the Nazi Weltanschauung (World-view or doctrine). Hitler > attacked the Protestant Churches by closing their schools, seizing property > and driving away pastors. Many pastors gave into the regime but some > continued to oppose it. 7000 ministers joined the Confessional Church. Many > of these paid with their freedom and/or their lives. I think one of the major errors of the Bekenntniskirche and other protestant groups in Nazi Germany was: Their Pacifism. When you`re confronted with probably the worst possible regime, you can't just preach and teach that what they do is a bad, bad thing. This may help to find sleep at night and people will say that you were good man or woman after the regime killed you. Seriously: What did they achieve: Nothing, nada, rien. OK, a tiny group of them might have saved a handful, but compared to six millions.... When you're confronted with such violence, the only answer is violence. This may be sad, but I'm afraid that's the lesson to be learned from WWII. [snip] > The Church was in an unenviable position. There was no love lost between > any of the religious leaders and the Nazi Party. What did the Pope (and > other church leadership of all faiths) do? They dealt with the devil to > preserve something. It was not the most heroic stance by any means but > probably the most realistic. Yep, and it helped almost nothing. I'm really sorry, but there are certain professions of whose members one has to expect a bit more, that have to have higher moral standards. For example: While I could show mercy about minor illegal or immoral things when done by a "normal" citizen, like minor tax fraud, speeding or cheating on your wife, I would not accept such behaviour, when the offender is a judge. Therefore: When You are a Priest or Pope, You do NOT deal with the devil. It's your fucking job to fight him. I mean, these christian professionals consider themselves moral institution. So, if the only morally acceptable option is to fight evil, they have to do so. [snip] > Also, we have to look at the Catholic Church from its perspective. It > has a very checkered past but again, what religion doesn't. They also feel > under siege from many quarters. In regions were the Catholic Church is > dominant, prejudice against other religions happens. The reverse is also > true, though. I personally have heard rants by acquaintances attacking the > Church because its rituals are different from their own. I've heard long > ramblings about the corruption of the Church and how the Pope is the > antichrist. The Church is no more or less corrupt than any other institution > but these attacks continue to happen. Is the Church completely pure or > completely evil? It is neither, just an institution with its view on the > world that it wishes to push. I'm sorry, but even as a (very) non-practicing > Catholic, this kind of stuff annoys the piss out of me. Having someone that > doesn't know much about the Church essentially telling me about how wrong my > religion is and using some of the more ridiculous propaganda just reminds me > of a form of Nazism. Religious debate is fine or fictional religious > representations (actually both are quite enjoyed) but out and out attacks on > someone's faith is a big pet peeve. I'm sorry, but I do not really agree on everything. I agree on the following: Ignorant attacks on another faith is just plain stupid. But fair criticism should be allowed. You say that the catholic church is no more or less corrupt than any other institution. Compared to what institutions: Political parties? Governments? The Mafia? Microsoft? You seem to forget that there is a major difference: Churches think of themselves as the defenders of morals and values. In such organizations corruption is just inacceptable!!! A corrupt and/or immoral church loses all of his reason to exist. This is not meant as an assault on catholicism, it's just my two cents. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:46:00 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church Greetings. First of all - maybe I'm overly sensitive (it's the old age) but I'm afraid we could have the primer for a first class flame war here, so please, gentlemen, let's be cautious. This said, Dave K wrote > Under Hitler, Alfred Rosenberg developed a new religion known as Positive >Christianity. By golly! I totally forgot about that sucker! Positive Christianity indeed... Thanks, Dave, for dusting off some old memory banks. Italian editions of the whole Rosenberg opus, with dust jackets and learned accessory papers, should still be available through the old reliable "Edizioni AR" press - I honestly don't know where to find them but they were in print as of 1995. The AR upper-crust Neonazis normally have a booth at the Turin book fair. [for those that missed an old post about AR - they are an openly revisionist press, based somewhere in Italy, and reprinting old Nazi standard ideology books together with modern takes on such "propaganda smokescreens" as the "alleged Holocaust" and other such rubbish. They also publish some fiction - I discovered them when I picked up a Robert E. Howard booklet of theirs and was both ashamed and enraged seeing what they did to poor Two Guns Bob. More details should be posted in the Cave.] > His >"masterpiece" however was Mythus des XX Jahrhunderts (the Myth of the 20th >Century) which he finished in 1925 and finally got published in 1930 in >Munich. The book became the second leading bestseller in the Reich (Mein >Kampf being first). This book _has to have_ a Mythos rating. Let's see.... "Mythus des XX Jahrhunderts" Mythos rating: +4% [there's a lot of rants diluting the stuff] Sanity Loss: 1d8 [such a cartload of crap can rattle you all right, and it also... read below!] Reading grants checking of Anthropology, Philosophy and Debate No spells This is sort of a Mythos Trojan Horse Book - it weakens your sense of reality, making you more open to subsequent Mythos imprinting. Ergo - Special Rule: any Mythos Book read after "Mythus" gives Maximum Sanity Loss, and a bonus +1% in Mythos rating. "Mein Gott! It all figures perfectly.... aaargh!" After that, you are ready to learn new ways of screaming and revelling. After all... > Rosenberg considered his Positive Christianity >movement as the vehicle for this change. [Sorry for the sillyness in the face of Dave's excellent historical overview.] Just a bit... > How many people truly resisted? > A small percentage of the populace. How many Allied leaders condemned the >Holocaust during the war years? Not very many loud voices there and they had >the benefit of being outside occupied Europe and engaged in a war with the >Reich where it might have made some propaganda use. It's an old joke one of my friends usually makes: "The only guy in the USA that figured out Hitler from the beginning and did something about it was Chaplin" paradoxical, but sadly close to the truth. And finally... > Those Nazis that were allowed to escape, what did they offer? Curiously enough, I worked something like this (if the other way around, actually) as the premise of my segment of Emerald Hammer. >Like >Operation Paperclip, are there new additions to the Vatican's Library? What >traces of corruption were left by this contact? What new orders sprung up >after the war to battle this sort of evil? The Church probably has a lot of >information and contacts throughout the world that can be of great use to DG, >allies hidden amongst the orders and a world-wide network of safehouses (in >the guise of Church property) that might be made available. With the Church >being very strong in Central and South America, they could be waging a bit of >war against the Karotechia, maybe as much as atonement for alleged past sins >as to combat evil. And again, there will be corruption within the Church >from both real world dealings and mythos taint for agents to encounter. Just >remember to run the Church as a real institution, with good and bad because >it is made up of real humans, and not just as a cardboard cutout of either >good or evil. I really like all of the above. It is an almost ideal template for a first class plus Saint Jerome campaign - - it has internal consistency and drama, and it's not just a rehash of some DG-viable scenario. I'd love to run something like that. [there goes another month of free time.... ] > Sorry for the long rant… Don't worry about that. Thanks again for the data, and take care you all out there. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:55:50 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: DG: Another Nazi/Karotechia Rant I know this particular discussion has happened before but with some recent posts on Nazism I wanted to throw out some views and a possible campaign use for the Karotechia. Personally, I always find it very chilling when people try and equate Nazism with stupidity. Nothing is further from the truth. Blind devotion to an ideology is something that is very common and does not equate in any way to intelligence. We all have our ideologies that we follow very feverently without even thinking of them in that way, be them religion or nationalism or a particular train of scientific thought. We all have our particular prejudices, even if we don't want to acknowledge them. It is this human trait that makes groups like the Karotechia so dangerous. Your average neo-nazi skinhead may be a bit on the low intelligence side (though from personal experience I can tell you that this is not always the case). Their function within the Karotechia is not that of a leadership role and they are actually the least dangerous in the overall scheme of things. They play the role that was filled before by the German SA and SS. They are street brawlers and thugs; instruments of terror that are turned loose on specific targets or to incite mob violence. They are the lowest rungs of the ladder and the most expendable. Next would be various militia groups. These are in two distinct categories: those with racist leanings and those without. Again, I can speak from personal experience when I say that not all militias and militia members are racist organizations. I know personally members of multiracial militia-style groups and by acquaintance some very racist ones, also. What these groups really represent are the same situation in Germany with the Freikorps (Free Corps) following WW I. Some of these people may actually have a claim to being true patriots while others are little more than trained, organized and armed thugs (though that is an argument for another time). In the scheme of things, however, they are a valuable resource for the Karotechia to draw upon regardless of their leanings. The militias are already vilified by the popular media, leading to a division between them and society and easing recruitment of like-minded individuals for Karotechia operations. Individuals and groups that are not in line with Karotechia thinking still share a distrust of the government. This makes them potentially pawns, as they can be used through fronts to pursue overt actions or pulled together as part of a grassroots coalition for increased power and disposed of later (one of Hitler's tactics for gaining control of Germany). They are a growing power and each incident of police involvement, justified or not, adds to their ranks. The real important groups for Karotechia targeting are the Middle Class and the Rich. The Middle Class represents a large segment of population, powerful in numbers (and hence votes). The Rich represent monetary backing. Consider the following scenario (it can be used with DG as another herald of the Endtimes): A large-scale disruption happens on the world scene. This could be Y2K, a new depression, collapse of a powerful government that has international repercussions or whatever. The economic system takes a slump and thousands are unemployed. Starvation and disease are taking a toll in places formerly not overly prone to them. The Federal Government is largely helpless and when they do act it is usually repressive or ineffective. Along comes a grassroots party (really a Karotechia front). They organize soup kitchens and local economic initiatives. They speak of strong national spirit to rise above the current situation, led by strong leadership by their party. They pull in some hard-line Right Wing industrialists and former military officials to gain legitimacy. They don't speak of racial doctrine to start, focusing instead on the economic situation. Meanwhile, the skinheads are sent in some areas to raise trouble, causing fear in the populace. In other areas, they actually act as a force for stability. When local elections arrive, key areas then either votes for Karotechia backed leaders or are frightened into not voting. This gives them a foothold in areas for further operations. Next, the political ideology begins flowing. Financial institutions are attacked verbally as convenient targets. This leads into attacks on Jewish "Bankers." Immigration laws can become major issues, as Karotechia politicos thunder on about (insert country here) for us. In Europe, the cries could be against Arab immigrants, in America it could be against Hispanics and so on. The average Middle Class person might have largely ignored these issues in good times but when things are bad, they want to lash out at someone. Add to that the fact that there is a lot of hidden racism within the Middle Class. I don't know how many people I have heard mumbling against Blacks, Asians and so on in quiet company. Add to that the so-called PC racists, those that make a show of having Black friends, Asian Friends or whatever (Why you need to label your "friends" I don't know). These all are the same people that would at the worst openly support racist policies and at the best, merely keep their silence on the subject. Either violence or clever rhetoric could quell true dissidents against these policies. The Middle Class represents the true field of combat for Karotechia initiatives. They represent a strong area of the populace that votes and forms the backbone of the country, while fearing both the upper and lower classes. It really wouldn't take very much to win their support in a crisis situation. Members of the Upper Class are traditionally conservative and many members could be pulled into a Karotechia backed coalition, seeing possible economic stability and financial reward. Promises of renewed industry initiatives, economic kickbacks and an end to unions could draw many in with monetary and political support. Between the two classes, the movement grows. Each step in the policy would move slowly but inexorably forward. First would come general repression against minorities, then economic attacks, then deportation and relocation (read concentration) camps for dissidents. It would keep moving forward towards either race war or race extermination, everyone unable to believe or grasp how things had moved that far. The average member of society would choose his usual refuge, the silence of the sheep, hiding his head from his what's going on and enjoying his prosperity. Karotechia politicians will continue to gain political positions, temporary compromises are made and a new Nazi movement is gaining power. The above scenario could easily happen in either the RW or DG, in any country. If the situation were right, a Nazi group could rise to power again, hidden behind various fronts until it was too late. Never underestimate the common man from taking the path of least resistance and in a crisis clime, quick and easy answers sell better. That's what happened in Germany, Italy and a host of other Fascist nations and can happen anywhere. Also, don't underestimate Nazis because of their ideology. They can be brutally efficient in all aspects of their movement. They came very close to victory before and their society was efficient. While much has been made of Hitler's incompetence and the failings of the Nazis, they did enjoy a stunning rise to power and an efficient war-fighting campaign. While much is made of their failed campaigns, much of this is made with a historian's hindsight. Being just days (by some accounts one day) from winning the battle of Britain fails to take into account the intelligence and perspective they had at the time in Germany. If Hitler hadn't invaded Yugoslavia and had invaded Russia six weeks earlier (as planned) would the outcome have been different. All war is a series of calculated risks. The Allies had their failings, too, but much is made of history from the victor's viewpoint, coloring the true perceptions and actions of the time. The Nazis were not as stupid as generally portrayed and the Karotechia should reflect this. They can be a devastating force if used properly and should not become some sort of pulp-style caricature. Both the RW and DG Nazis should be a dangerous and cunning opponent with far reaching plans and operations. They are definitely more dangerous than many seem to feel. Anyway, just another long rant… - -Dave K ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #86 *******************************