From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #87 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Thursday, September 30 1999 Volume 02 : Number 087 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:22:19 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church In a message dated 9/30/99 3:38:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: <> A question I myself have had :) << I think one of the major errors of the Bekenntniskirche and other Protestant groups in Nazi Germany was: Their Pacifism. When you`re confronted with probably the worst possible regime, you can't just preach and teach that what they do is a bad, bad thing. This may help to find sleep at night and people will say that you were good man or woman after the regime killed you. Seriously: What did they achieve: Nothing, nada, rien. OK, a tiny group of them might have saved a handful, but compared to six millions.... When you're confronted with such violence, the only answer is violence. This may be sad, but I'm afraid that's the lesson to be learned from WWII.>> A lesson I most definitely agree with. Pacifism is not an option most of the time. Even behind many Pacifistic movements were smaller groups who would carry out violence. A sad but realistic fact is that change or resistance must be prepared for violence and to use violence. As un-PC as it sounds, some people really deserve to die... <> I would agree if we lived in a truly perfect world. All religions have shortcomings and skeletons in the closet. They are run by humans. We cannot realistically hold them to a higher standard without holding all such people to it and be willing to enforce it ourselves. The Pope didn't speak out enough. Why didn't Catholics move to change this? They are a part of that institution, too. Politicians, police and so on should also be held to these higher standards but many times we will accept their shortcomings. If we can be realistic when dealing with them, why not with religious leaders (of any stripe)? Now, that's not to excuse true crimes committed, be they tax fraud, child molestation or murder. The individuals should be punished. But the institution can only be as good as its people and they must be viewed as realistic. The Pope kept his silence. He is not a great man, then, and should not be revered. But he should also be viewed as a man when viewing his failings. His fear or whatever overtook him. His human shortcomings overcame him. It happens to everybody at some point. <> I definitely agree that fair criticism should be allowed. it may not have seemed it but I'm as critical of Church history and policy as anyone. But informed criticism. When I have to deal with a local born-again Christian who does not want debate but instead attacks the Church on a twisting of Biblical references and tells me that unless I convert, I'm a follower of Satan, well that's when I get annoyed. I'm not justifying or condemning the Church for its actions in this case. They just took the same path as millions of others, the one of least resistance. I don't think they deserve kudos as a whole for their actions but the good should be weighed with the bad. What higher institutions have a clean record from the time, be they a religion a political group or whatever. Everybody in these positions should have done something and they failed (and that's across the globe). To condemn one institution out of all of these seems a bit much. The Church may have failed in a moral sense, I definitely agree, but there wasn't much morality from any corner then. It is a human institution and needs to be viewed in context and realistically. What good did they do during the period and what bad? What could have been accomplished, what was and what wasn't? The Church has both aspects during this time and if you criticize its failings, acknowledge its good. Well, enough religious debate for the moment from me :). - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:36:34 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church Davide Mana schrieb: [snip] > > His > >"masterpiece" however was Mythus des XX Jahrhunderts (the Myth of the 20th > >Century) which he finished in 1925 and finally got published in 1930 in > >Munich. The book became the second leading bestseller in the Reich (Mein > >Kampf being first). > > This book _has to have_ a Mythos rating. > > Let's see.... > > "Mythus des XX Jahrhunderts" > Mythos rating: +4% [there's a lot of rants diluting the stuff] > Sanity Loss: 1d8 [such a cartload of crap can rattle you all right, and it > also... read below!] > Reading grants checking of Anthropology, Philosophy and Debate > > No spells > This is sort of a Mythos Trojan Horse Book - it weakens your sense of > reality, making you more open to subsequent Mythos imprinting. > Ergo - Special Rule: any Mythos Book read after "Mythus" gives Maximum > Sanity Loss, and a bonus +1% in Mythos rating. > "Mein Gott! It all figures perfectly.... aaargh!" And what would you make of "Mein Kampf"? BTW: In Germany "Mein Kampf" is a nearly absolutely banned. Book shops do not sell it, and if you go to a university library you have to prove that you only have scientific reasons to read it, before you get a copy of it. It's something that I never really understood. I mean, I know that this book can be dangerous, but reading it can be extremely helpful to understand the complete idiocy Hitler`s ideas. I was lucky enought to obtain a copy by inheriting the book collection of one of my uncles. [ Among this library was also a rather frightening tome called "Rasse & Seele" ( Race and Soul ) about the different human races featuring loads of "scientific" pictures ] Though I would NEVER put it visibly between my other books, like between Lenin's complete collection of writings part II and Anal Inferno by anonymous. [ snip] > It's an old joke one of my friends usually makes: "The only guy in the USA > that figured out Hitler from the beginning and did something about it was > Chaplin" > paradoxical, but sadly close to the truth. This definitely raises one question: Are you allowed to joke about Nazis or Hitler? In post war Germany something like Mel Brooks' "Springtime for Hitler" would be considered absolutely unacceptable by the politically correct majority. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:51:23 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Another Nazi/Karotechia Rant Good evening. USFORREC1@aol.com schrieb: [snip] > Your average neo-nazi skinhead may be a bit on the low intelligence side > (though from personal experience I can tell you that this is not always the > case). Their function within the Karotechia is not that of a leadership role > and they are actually the least dangerous in the overall scheme of things. > > They play the role that was filled before by the German SA and SS. They are > street brawlers and thugs; instruments of terror that are turned loose on > specific targets or to incite mob violence. They are the lowest rungs of the > ladder and the most expendable. Ouch!!! You're right about the SA, but putting the SS on the same level as the SA is totally wrong. Calling them street brawlers, lowest rungs or expendable is just a desaster. The SS was THE elite among the Nazi groups. [snip] > Add to that the so-called PC racists, those that > make a show of having Black friends, Asian Friends or whatever (Why you need > to label your "friends" I don't know). That's a good point! The liberal or left-wing racist, the ones that love people just because they are black, asian, gay or whatsoever. It's kind of racism the other way round, but it still is racism. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:08:31 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church USFORREC1@aol.com schrieb: [snip] > I definitely agree that fair criticism should be allowed. it may not > have seemed it but I'm as critical of Church history and policy as anyone. > But informed criticism. Well, you didn't seem like a religious extremist ;-) But I have to admit that I was kind of careful when I wrote my answer, because I didn't want to hurt any religious feelings. > When I have to deal with a local born-again > Christian who does not want debate but instead attacks the Church on a > twisting of Biblical references and tells me that unless I convert, I'm a > follower of Satan, well that's when I get annoyed. Born again christians are cool. In my opinion they really have the chance to become tools of satan [ so I finally managed to hurt religious feelings ]. Example: One of my colleagues is such a born-again Christian. He was raised in the GDR and after the fall of the wall, he discovered Jesus. He is married for three years, but since they do not want to have children in the moment, they do not...., well you know what I am talking about. And he rejects oral or anal sex...I asked him during a party and he was drunk enough to answer. I lent him some of my HPL-books and he thought they sucked. Not because he did not like Lovecraft's way of writing, but because he thinks that it is obscene to develop a non-christian mythos. And BTW: The fellow looks just like Ned Flanders. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:09:06 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church In a message dated 9/30/99 3:52:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, doctor.dee@iol.it writes: << First of all - maybe I'm overly sensitive (it's the old age) but I'm afraid we could have the primer for a first class flame war here, so please, gentlemen, let's be cautious. >> Oops, maybe I'm getting under-sensitive. When I jumped in, I was simply engaging in religious debate with other members of the list. If anybody feels I've stepped on their religious toes or whatever, let me apologize. I haven't been offended by anything to the list so far and was just throwing in my two cents. Hope everybody feels the same way. Glad some of you could use the history, too. Seems like some very good DG material hidden amongst all that stuff (now just to fit it in :) ). - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:12:56 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church In a message dated 9/30/99 4:39:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << And what would you make of "Mein Kampf"? BTW: In Germany "Mein Kampf" is a nearly absolutely banned. Book shops do not sell it, and if you go to a university library you have to prove that you only have scientific reasons to read it, before you get a copy of it. It's something that I never really understood. I mean, I know that this book can be dangerous, but reading it can be extremely helpful to understand the complete idiocy Hitler`s ideas. I was lucky enought to obtain a copy by inheriting the book collection of one of my uncles. [ Among this library was also a rather frightening tome called "Rasse & Seele" ( Race and Soul ) about the different human races featuring loads of "scientific" pictures ] Though I would NEVER put it visibly between my other books, like between Lenin's complete collection of writings part II and Anal Inferno by anonymous. >> I understand what you mean. while Mein Kampf is not banned here in the states and every library and book store has it, I've avoided buying it so far. It may seem silly but I never wanted to be viewed as some neo-nazi by these anonymous people out there and since my purchases tend to look a bit strange anyhow, have avoided it. Still I'm very curious and will bite the bullet soon and get a copy. - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:14:38 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church Greetings once again. As I said, the flames are getting closer - too much personal involvement, I fear. So, this is my last post on the subject - I will not give Chris Womack the reason to stomp me to the ground. No, thanks! Anyway, Eckhard writes... >You say that the catholic church is no more or less corrupt than any other >institution. Compared to what institutions: Political parties? Governments? The >Mafia? Microsoft? Hey, man - let's keep this discussion clean. No need to mention Microsoft. >You seem to forget that there is a major difference: Churches >think of themselves as the defenders of morals and values. In such organizations >corruption is just inacceptable!!! A corrupt and/or immoral church loses all of >his reason to exist. This is not meant as an assault on catholicism, it's just my >two cents. And they are appreciated as such - well meant but (sorry!) unrealistic. Should all institutions that negate with facts their theoretical premises stop working, we'd be all living in a much more silent world, and most of us would be out of work. So, let's praise them for their ideals, and then judge the facts, if we feel in a position from which we can judge. Let's not forget that ideals are a fine thing, but we are dealing with human beings. Let's stick to the original topic - did Pius XII connive with the Nazis? Yes. No. Maybe. Your mileage may vary. And we all work on data that are not final. He was probably a politician more than a man of God. Sad as this can may be, it's probably a necessity in a word in which politics are much more influential than principles. Sadly (IMHO) whenever religion touches politics it does wrong, no matter what. You can't serve two masters and all that. [BTW: I think the same goes for science and for art dabbling with politics. There! No Jerry Cornelius-ing for me tonight] He most likely failed as a Pope and is currently working as an ostrich-feather fan operator in the Muslim Paradise sector of the Hereafter as a form of punishment. God goes there for some spicy khebab on thursday nights and cracks jokes at him. He lives in eternal embarassment - a nice Purgatory for a guy like Pacelli. He probably tried to keep the Devil at bay by allowing it an amount of free hand that he deemed was reasonable. We can think differently - again, mileages vary. Maybe he believed he could saty above the parts, and maybe scrap some advantages - stupid, but human. He let down people that had faith in him and in his role. ["Pius XII and the Nazis - It was just Bad RolePlaying!"] He probably tried to compensate the best he could. Was his attempt at saving what was salvageable successfull? Yes, 800.000 people is a consistent amount. Even one person saved is consistent amount, given the circumstances. Was it _enough_? Enough for what? NOTHING is enough, probably. So what? Personally, I'll wait till I have further data to make up my mind definitively about Prince Pacelli. DG-wise, I like the take that Dave outlined, as it gives some motivations and aims to St. Jerome that were not there before. In a '40s DG game, I'd probably keep the Church as an independent, "gray" faction, detailing on an individual basis Church-affiliated NPCs. After all, from personal experiences, I met some Catholic priests that were hero-sized characters and some that were absolute dorks, and dangerous. Same goes for atheists, and for every other denomination. It's hard not to judge companies by their employees standards, but with religions that's just looking at a part of the whole. And here I stop. Take care. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:22:49 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Another Nazi/Karotechia Rant In a message dated 9/30/99 4:54:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << Ouch!!! You're right about the SA, but putting the SS on the same level as the SA is totally wrong. Calling them street brawlers, lowest rungs or expendable is just a desaster. The SS was THE elite among the Nazi groups.>> I was talking more about the SS in the early days when it was more akin to the SA and its rival. It did eventually grow into its own elite formation but as the war wore on, even this was diluted by foreign groups of the Waffen-SS and more "liberal" recruiting standards to keep up strengths. While the SS wasn't expendable in a classic sense, they were used in ways that amounted to suicide due to their "elite" composition, used as shock troops in the face of overwhelming odds. <<[snip] > Add to that the so-called PC racists, those that > make a show of having Black friends, Asian Friends or whatever (Why you need > to label your "friends" I don't know). That's a good point! The liberal or left-wing racist, the ones that love people just because they are black, asian, gay or whatsoever. It's kind of racism the other way round, but it still is racism. >> A quote that I stole from an author (though I can't remember which one) was as follows: During an interview this author was asked if he liked Blacks, he said no. When asked if he liked whites, he said no. When asked if he liked women, he said no. The interviewer continued on through every ethnic, gender and so on group and always recieved the same answer- he didn't like them. Finally when asked who he did like he replied- his friends. That has always been my philosophy. I won't like someone because of what they are but who they are. Unfortunately, many so-called PC members of society have a closet form of racism that jades their views. In many ways I hate them more than neo-nazis, at least you know where you stand with them :) - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:47:07 -0500 From: "Shane Ivey" Subject: RE: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church Cool! Another bunch of messages denigrating Christians and Christianity! Just what I look for in a discussion of Delta Green and the Cthulhu Mythos! Why waste our time talking about the games and literature when we can insult the faith of fellow list members? Folks, I'm not terribly sensitive about it, but sometimes this sort of thing does get annoying. Shane Ivey, Editor and Webmaster, Zealot.com Hecklers Online, Inc: www.hecklers.com - www.ant.com - www.zealot.com - -----Original Message----- From: owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org [mailto:owner-deltagreen@nocturne.org]On Behalf Of Eckhard Huelshoff Born again christians are cool. In my opinion they really have the chance to become tools of satan [ so I finally managed to hurt religious feelings ]. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:06:48 -0500 From: Nightstar Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church At 05:09 PM 9/30/1999 -0400, USFORREC1@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/30/99 3:52:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >doctor.dee@iol.it writes: > ><< First of all - maybe I'm overly sensitive (it's the old age) but I'm afraid > we could have the primer for a first class flame war here, so please, > gentlemen, let's be cautious. > >> > > Oops, maybe I'm getting under-sensitive. When I jumped in, I was simply >engaging in religious debate with other members of the list. If anybody >feels I've stepped on their religious toes or whatever, let me apologize. I >haven't been offended by anything to the list so far and was just throwing in >my two cents. Hope everybody feels the same way. > Glad some of you could use the history, too. Seems like some very good >DG material hidden amongst all that stuff (now just to fit it in :) ). > >-Dave K No offense taken here. I am a staunchly patriotic, nationalistic, and Christian United States citizen. You can't hurt me with debate. I'll do what all intelligent people do. I'll quit listening when you say something I don't agree with! ;-> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:04:40 -0700 From: Gil Trevizo Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church At 01:34 PM 9/30/99 EDT, USFORREC1@aol.com wrote: > Now what does all this mean for DG? During WW2 operations, the Church >can provide an interesting gray area for agents. It will sometimes be an >ally and sometimes be an enemy while it pursues it's own agenda and mythos >war. Individual members can be varied, some as collaborators and some as >allies against the Nazis. Like DG and MJ in Rules of Engagement, strange >alliances can be formed on a temporary basis to further one or the others >agenda. This is good, but I'd personally find this too conservative a treatment for the Church's involvement in the Mythos side of the war. Awhile back I read some big cheesy novel called The Assassini or something, about a gun-toting priest that's knocking off everyone involved in the wartime betrayal of a French resistance cell on the eve of their big mission, an assassasination attempt on the Pope for his Nazi collaborations. It was indescribably bad writing and the plot never fufilled the promise of the concept, but I did think it posited a more interesting way of portraying the Church in a WW2 DG: that instead of being one big conspiracy, it's filled with several. Rather than just have them be "a gray area", pull out all the stops have something not unlike the DG vs MJ-12 rivalry, Catholic style. I could easily see a DG-style subrosa society within the Church opposed to the Mythos (St Jerome's boys perhaps - I dunno, as Davide's site crashes everytime I try to read that stuff) vs another secret wing of the Vatican who are using the Karotechia similar to how MJ-12 thinks they're using the Greys. Maybe even the dark side of the Church could stretch back into those mystical gnostic roots of Christianity, or an ancient sect of Cathars that've survived within the Vatican. Hell, throw in Holy Blood Holy Grail stuff, and maybe the Templars never really went away, or a Grail-like organization from the "Preacher" comics protecting some inbred halfwit they believe (or actually is, depending on how deep your blasphemy runs) is the Holy Seed. But, back to the "bad" Pope, one thing to remember when getting back on-topic is how inconsequential he really is in the big Mythos picture. After all, the head man for the Karotechia, Hitler, probably had no idea of the organization's existence, and if he did, would've probably laughed it off as another of Himmler's crackpot ideas. So, it really doesn't matter how evil the Pope was, because I doubt he'd have any direct involvement in the Church's relations with the Mythos. Like all the other world leaders of that period, he'd either be safely entrenched in "plausible deniability" or would just flat out not be aware of what was going on in that darkest of the shadow wars. Gil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 00:18:49 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church OK, OK.... never say never and all that. Another post for the sizzling topic... Eckhad wrote >This definitely raises one question: Are you allowed to joke about Nazis or >Hitler? >In post war Germany something like Mel Brooks' "Springtime for Hitler" would be >considered absolutely unacceptable by the politically correct majority. Old Italian saying: "paese che vai, usanze che trovi" [To a diffrent country you go, different habits you find] In Italy Mel Brooks' "Hitler rap" that was used as a trailer video for his "To Be or Not To Be" was frowned upon and censored because the dance moves of the Nazi-dressed (or un-dressed) ladies in the creography were deemed too sexually hinting. There are laws against the revivification of the Fascist party and of its "look and feel", but they are generally disregarded. And "Alleanza Nazionale" (the extreme right party) was founded by fascist survivors anyway, so what? To be really paranoid - my impression is, what's really discouraged (and frowned upon by authorities and PC socialites alike) is any attempt to get a fair, honest and well documented picture of the twenty years of fascist rule in Italy. Disinformation's all right - it can be denied, and still make headlines and sell papers nonetheless. But try and dig out _facts_, and they'll start looking at you in a weird, unpleasant way. I know - I tried it. As for Mein Kampf - it's available in book stores but I've so far avoided it, partially because of the reasons Dave mentioned. I don't want to look like a sucker with the charming lady at the counter. And reading Nazi writing makes me feel unclean. End of post. Take care, and good night. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:24:22 -0700 From: Gil Trevizo Subject: Re: DG: Another Nazi/Karotechia Rant At 03:55 PM 9/30/99 EDT, USFORREC1@aol.com wrote: > Personally, I always find it very chilling when people try and equate >Nazism with stupidity. Nothing is further from the truth. Blind devotion to >an ideology is something that is very common and does not equate in any way >to intelligence. Matters what you mean by intelligence. If mean you how much and how quickly one acquires knowledge, then yes, fascists can be extraordinarily intelligent. If you mean critically analyzing that knowledge to explore its meanings and create something more than the sum of its parts, then no, fascists, like those who fervently believe in any ideology, are dumb as a post, at least to whatever particular subject that ideology is concerned. Critical analysis is anathema to fascism, in all its forms. It emasculates the thinker, in their view, robs them of the ideological fervor that comes from clear simple ideas. Sure, there is always some part of a fascist movement that goes in for the arcane, but they only search for information to better buttress their previously-held notions, wrongly equating depth with complexity, as opposed to the critical thinker who wants all that info to expand their findings, not narrow them. And anyways, these pseudointellectuals in fascism don't usually last long - witness the Theosophists and how they ended up under Hitler's regime. As for Nazis, since their ideology is so all-encompassing, they really come down hard against critical thinking - there can nothing of value that is not of their Aryan ideal. So everything that is good has come from some Nordic source. This is where they come up with stuff like the World Ice Theory. This also makes me wonder how the Karotechia really saw the Mythos. Did they incorporate the GOOs into Norse mythology in some way, believing they were finding the lost arts of their pagan ancestry. And this why I'd really like to see what would come out of a Karotechia expedition to Tibet, like the actual SS-Ahnenerbe did. What kind of Aryan superman would they make of the Tcho-Tcho? Gil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:45:53 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII In a message dated 29/9/99 1:09:27, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: >For me the real heroes of WWII were the ordinary allied [ Red Army > >included ] soldiers, regular citizens that risked or lost their lives, >health or > >sanity in the war against Germany, may it be during air raids over the >valley of > >the Ruhr, in Northern Africa or on Omaha Beach. It may sound pathetic, >but as a > >German born only 27 years after WII, I am really thankful to those guys, >since it > >is their sacrifice that enabled me and my fellow Germans to live in a free > > >nation and do what I want to. > > > >ECKHARD Here Here (is that suppose to be "Hear"?)! But it true that Hitler was, how to put it delicatly, INSANE! He did a hell of a lot of other stupid stuff, and it was my impression that the German populace didn't actually know that he was killing 6 million Jews. That they didn't see jews around any more, yes. That they were being killed, probably. The real numbers and conditions, no. But I could be wrong. Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:52:05 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: DG: No Subject Wierd, ain't it? Picture the following. You approach a transparent box > which contains a reddish-black sculpture -- the bust of a man, > smiling enigmatically. You discover that the artist, Marc > Quinn, drained pints of his own blood for months and, in a > complex process, froze it and sculpted it into a likeness of > himself. The fragile resulting work, "Self," would cease to > exist were it to thaw. Furthermore, the blood cells which make > it up are actually still alive. Now, do you find this > repulsive, fascinating, or both? Does it make you ponder, what > is art? Or do you feel that such questions are so dangerous > that you should be protected even from asking them? > Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:59:02 -0400 From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: DG: Neandertal-Cannibal Link Discovered This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0B75.DC969B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A post pulled off the cryptozoology list. Interesting, considering some = habits of the Tcho-Tcho and some speculations we've had on where their = origins lay...possibly this supplies a link btwn. humankind and ghouls, = as well. Maybe the "ghoul prion" is an atavistic throwback to = Neanderthalic days. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thursday September 30, 1999 // 2:03 PM ET=20 Neanderthal-Cannibal Link Found http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/19990930/sc/neanderthal_cannibals_1.html By LAURAN NEERGAARD AP Medical Writer=20 WASHINGTON (AP) - A team of French and American scientists has found the = first real proof that Neanderthals were cannibals. Uncovering grisly 100,000-year-old remains from a cave in southern=20 France, the scientists concluded that Neanderthals butchered and ate=20 fellow people just like they did deer, even sucking the marrow from=20 their bones. Whether some Neanderthals ate their own kind has been a controversy=20 since the turn of the century, when Neanderthal bones bearing suspicious = scars were discovered in Croatia. Critics of the cannibalism theory=20 argued that maybe those bones had been gnawed by animals, cut for some=20 burial ritual or merely damaged by the primitive techniques of 1890s=20 archaeology. But the new discovery, by scientists who treated the cave on the Rhone=20 River like a crime scene and used forensics-style techniques to examine=20 the bones, should settle the issue. ``This one site has all of the evidence right together. It's as if=20 somebody put a yellow tape around the cave for 100,000 years and kept=20 the scene intact,'' said investigator Tim White, a University of=20 California, Berkeley, paleontologist. The key is that ``the hominid and deer carcasses were butchered in a=20 similar way, with the objective being the removal of soft tissues and=20 marrow,'' lead investigator Alban Defleur of the Universite du=20 Mediterrane at Marseilles wrote in Friday's edition of the journal=20 Science. Neanderthals had to be doing the butchering because they were the only=20 species of human in Europe at the time. Now the question is why. The presence of animal bones suggests the=20 Neanderthals, who became extinct about 30,000 years ago, probably were=20 not starving. But the scientists cannot tell if Neanderthals ate their=20 enemies, or had some other reason for cannibalism. White and Defleur studied 78 fragments from six Neanderthal skeletons=20 that they determined had been systematically defleshed and the bones=20 broken apart to free the marrow. They concluded the Neanderthals had=20 been consumed because their bones were discarded among the bones of=20 animals, mostly deer, that had been defleshed and cut in exactly the=20 same manner with the same tools, also found in the cave.=20 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thursday September 30, 1999 // 2:00 PM ET=20 Old Bones Show Neanderthals Were Cannibals http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19990930/sc/science_cannibals_1.html By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Butchered bones unearthed in a cave=20 overlooking the Rhone Valley in France offer the most conclusive=20 evidence to date that European Neanderthals practiced cannibalism,=20 archeologists reported in the journal Science Thursday. Bones of at least six individual Neanderthals -- two adults, two=20 teen-agers and two children -- showed clear signs of having been=20 butchered, they said. The bones were excavated from an extraordinarily=20 well-preserved site in a cave in France's Ardeche region. ``The work at the Moula-Guercy cave allows us for the first time to=20 demonstrate the existence of the practice of cannibalism by European=20 Neanderthals,'' Alban Defleur of the Universite de la Mediterranee in=20 Marseilles, who led the study, said in a statement. Tim White of the University of California at Berkeley, who examined the=20 bones, said there was no question that these Neanderthals -- early=20 relatives of humans who lived between 35,000 and 125,000 years ago --=20 practiced cannibalism. ``This is just a unique co-occurrence of all the elements you need to=20 make this argument,'' White said in an interview. ``We have very good dating. We know it's 100,000 years old. There were=20 not any other folks in Europe at this time so we know it was=20 Neanderthals. It was a meticulous excavation so we know the location of=20 every single fragment, down to the centimeter.'' Writing in the journal Science, White said the care that Defleur took in = excavating the site should guarantee there will be no arguments about=20 what actually happened to the bones. They bore clear marks of having been cut up, cracked apart, and=20 otherwise prepared for food. They were mixed in with animal bones that=20 had been similarly butchered. ``If we conclude that the animal remains are the leftovers from a meal,=20 we're obliged to expand that conclusion to include humans,'' Defleur=20 said. Some scientists have argued that butchered and burned bones could have=20 been crunched by carnivores, or damaged when they were excavated. But White said Defleur was extra careful in opening the site, using only = bamboo tools to ensure that any bones found would not be scratched. ``The preservation is just superb,'' White, one of the world's experts=20 on early humans, said. ``We know exactly where each piece came from.'' They said the 78 bones come from at least six individuals -- two adults, = two teen-agers and two children aged 6 or 7. All of the skulls and limb=20 bones were broken apart and bore evidence that ligaments were severed=20 and muscles cut away. White said the bones had clearly been broken by tools. Archeologists have carefully documented this many times, butchering=20 animals themselves with genuine stone-age tools and studying the marks,=20 and examining carcasses prepared by living stone-age people. White pointed to one particular bone that had clearly been cracked open=20 to scoop out the fatty, nutritious marrow. ``You can see a striation field where the bone slipped on the anvil,''=20 he said. A picture of a tiny piece of skull from a child's head shows clear marks = of butchery. ``These marks were made by the edge of a stone tool 100,000 years ago,'' = White said. ``You can conduct what is almost a forensic examination,'' he added.=20 ``It's like it was yellow-taped off for 100,000 years.'' But White said it was impossible to tell how the Neanderthals actually=20 died, which left open the question of whether they were killed for their = meat or were scavenged, or perhaps eaten ritualistically after their=20 deaths. He said the finding did not shed any light on arguments about why modern = humans might turn to cannibalism, a practice reported the world over,=20 from Papua New Guinea to the Aztec Empire in South America. ``The thing you'd like to do today is go where the cannibals are and=20 watch them eat,'' he said. But no known cannibals remain. The researchers said the location of the cave, with its sweeping view of = the Rhone valley and its rich bounty of animal bones, suggested the=20 Neanderthals did not eat their fellows out of hunger. ``You have to imagine it 100,000 years ago. That valley would have been=20 full of mammals -- migrating horses and deer,'' White said. ``That would have been a great place to have been a Neanderthal=20 hunter.''=20 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew D. Gable agable@falcon.lhup.edu The CryptoWeb (back up!): http://come.to/the_cryptoweb/ Delta Green/Equinox: http://www.fortunecity.com/arkham/roswell/80/ "'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used = in quotes." My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult, "Nervous Xians" - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0B75.DC969B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neandertal-Cannibal Link = Discovered
A post pulled off the = cryptozoology list.=20 Interesting, considering some habits of the Tcho-Tcho and some = speculations=20 we've had on where their origins lay...possibly this supplies a link = btwn.=20 humankind and ghouls, as well. Maybe the "ghoul prion" is an = atavistic=20 throwback to Neanderthalic days.
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 
Thursday September 30, 1999 // 2:03 PM ET =
Neanderthal-Cannibal=20 Link Found
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/19990930/sc/neanderthal_cannibal= s_1.html

By=20 LAURAN NEERGAARD AP Medical Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - A team of = French=20 and American scientists has found the
first real proof that = Neanderthals=20 were cannibals.

Uncovering grisly 100,000-year-old remains from a = cave in=20 southern
France, the scientists concluded that Neanderthals = butchered and=20 ate
fellow people just like they did deer, even sucking the marrow = from=20
their bones.

Whether some Neanderthals ate their own kind has = been a=20 controversy
since the turn of the century, when Neanderthal bones = bearing=20 suspicious
scars were discovered in Croatia. Critics of the = cannibalism=20 theory
argued that maybe those bones had been gnawed by animals, cut = for=20 some
burial ritual or merely damaged by the primitive techniques of = 1890s=20
archaeology.

But the new discovery, by scientists who treated = the=20 cave on the Rhone
River like a crime scene and used forensics-style=20 techniques to examine
the bones, should settle the = issue.

``This one=20 site has all of the evidence right together. It's as if
somebody put = a=20 yellow tape around the cave for 100,000 years and kept
the scene = intact,''=20 said investigator Tim White, a University of
California, Berkeley,=20 paleontologist.

The key is that ``the hominid and deer carcasses = were=20 butchered in a
similar way, with the objective being the removal of = soft=20 tissues and
marrow,'' lead investigator Alban Defleur of the = Universite du=20
Mediterrane at Marseilles wrote in Friday's edition of the journal=20
Science.

Neanderthals had to be doing the butchering because = they=20 were the only
species of human in Europe at the time.

Now the = question is why. The presence of animal bones suggests the =
Neanderthals, who=20 became extinct about 30,000 years ago, probably were
not starving. = But the=20 scientists cannot tell if Neanderthals ate their
enemies, or had = some other=20 reason for cannibalism.

White and Defleur studied 78 fragments = from six=20 Neanderthal skeletons
that they determined had been systematically = defleshed=20 and the bones
broken apart to free the marrow. They concluded the=20 Neanderthals had
been consumed because their bones were discarded = among the=20 bones of
animals, mostly deer, that had been defleshed and cut in = exactly=20 the
same manner with the same tools, also found in the cave.=20



---------------------------------------------------------= - ---------------

Thursday=20 September 30, 1999 // 2:00 PM ET

Old Bones Show Neanderthals = Were=20 Cannibals

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19990930/sc/science_cann= ibals_1.html

By=20 Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

SAN FRANCISCO = (Reuters) -=20 Butchered bones unearthed in a cave
overlooking the Rhone Valley in = France=20 offer the most conclusive
evidence to date that European = Neanderthals=20 practiced cannibalism,
archeologists reported in the journal Science = Thursday.

Bones of at least six individual Neanderthals -- two = adults,=20 two
teen-agers and two children -- showed clear signs of having been =
butchered, they said. The bones were excavated from an = extraordinarily=20
well-preserved site in a cave in France's Ardeche = region.

``The work=20 at the Moula-Guercy cave allows us for the first time to
demonstrate = the=20 existence of the practice of cannibalism by European
Neanderthals,'' = Alban=20 Defleur of the Universite de la Mediterranee in
Marseilles, who led = the=20 study, said in a statement.

Tim White of the University of = California at=20 Berkeley, who examined the
bones, said there was no question that = these=20 Neanderthals -- early
relatives of humans who lived between 35,000 = and=20 125,000 years ago --
practiced cannibalism.

``This is just a = unique=20 co-occurrence of all the elements you need to
make this argument,'' = White=20 said in an interview.

``We have very good dating. We know it's = 100,000=20 years old. There were
not any other folks in Europe at this time so = we know=20 it was
Neanderthals. It was a meticulous excavation so we know the = location=20 of
every single fragment, down to the centimeter.''

Writing = in the=20 journal Science, White said the care that Defleur took in
excavating = the=20 site should guarantee there will be no arguments about
what actually = happened to the bones.

They bore clear marks of having been cut = up,=20 cracked apart, and
otherwise prepared for food. They were mixed in = with=20 animal bones that
had been similarly butchered.

``If we = conclude that=20 the animal remains are the leftovers from a meal,
we're obliged to = expand=20 that conclusion to include humans,'' Defleur
said.

Some = scientists=20 have argued that butchered and burned bones could have
been crunched = by=20 carnivores, or damaged when they were excavated.

But White said = Defleur=20 was extra careful in opening the site, using only
bamboo tools to = ensure=20 that any bones found would not be scratched.

``The preservation = is just=20 superb,'' White, one of the world's experts
on early humans, said. = ``We know=20 exactly where each piece came from.''

They said the 78 bones come = from at=20 least six individuals -- two adults,
two teen-agers and two children = aged 6=20 or 7. All of the skulls and limb
bones were broken apart and bore = evidence=20 that ligaments were severed
and muscles cut away.

White said = the=20 bones had clearly been broken by tools.

Archeologists have = carefully=20 documented this many times, butchering
animals themselves with = genuine=20 stone-age tools and studying the marks,
and examining carcasses = prepared by=20 living stone-age people.

White pointed to one particular bone = that had=20 clearly been cracked open
to scoop out the fatty, nutritious=20 marrow.

``You can see a striation field where the bone slipped on = the=20 anvil,''
he said.

A picture of a tiny piece of skull from a = child's=20 head shows clear marks
of butchery.

``These marks were made = by the=20 edge of a stone tool 100,000 years ago,''
White said.

``You = can=20 conduct what is almost a forensic examination,'' he added.
``It's = like it=20 was yellow-taped off for 100,000 years.''

But White said it was=20 impossible to tell how the Neanderthals actually
died, which left = open the=20 question of whether they were killed for their
meat or were = scavenged, or=20 perhaps eaten ritualistically after their
deaths.

He said the = finding=20 did not shed any light on arguments about why modern
humans might = turn to=20 cannibalism, a practice reported the world over,
from Papua New = Guinea to=20 the Aztec Empire in South America.

``The thing you'd like to do = today is=20 go where the cannibals are and
watch them eat,'' he said. But no = known=20 cannibals remain.

The researchers said the location of the cave, = with its=20 sweeping view of
the Rhone valley and its rich bounty of animal = bones,=20 suggested the
Neanderthals did not eat their fellows out of=20 hunger.

``You have to imagine it 100,000 years ago. That valley = would=20 have been
full of mammals -- migrating horses and deer,'' White=20 said.

``That would have been a great place to have been a = Neanderthal=20
hunter.''=20



---------------------------------------------------------= - ---------------

Andrew D. Gable
agable@falcon.lhup.edu
The = CryptoWeb=20 (back up!): http://come.to/the_cryptoweb/<= BR>Delta=20 Green/Equinox: http://www.fortune= city.com/arkham/roswell/80/
 
"'Reality' is the only word in = the language=20 that should always be used in=20 quotes."
         &n= bsp;         =20 My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult, "Nervous=20 Xians"
- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0B75.DC969B00-- ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #87 *******************************