From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #88 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Saturday, October 2 1999 Volume 02 : Number 088 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:25:35 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: Dark shadows (was: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII) From: Davide Mana > I'll talk about dark shadows. > No, not the horror sitcom. > About dark shadows settling on the spirits of nations. > People says that America was never the same after VietNam, that the war > cast a shadow on the nation's.... what? Self-confidence? Self-image? > Same probably goes with the Kennedy shooting. Ah, now here is something close to my heart--the chains of the past. This was, in fact, the big discussion in my best and brightest English class the other night. And it ties in with Mr. McGloin and others' discussions a little earlier about cultures, racism, etc. Anyway, I'd had a lesson prepared, but as often happens with that class, they derailed it with a timely question and we went off onto a whole nationalism/racism/tribalism tangent (it's a class of professors and teachers--they love tangents!). Black/white relations in the USA, Japanese/Korean relations in Japan--that kind of thing. And how we all want to just stop lumping people into ethnic groups and see everyone as simply _human_, but our stupid monkey brains keep switching on to Tribal Mode and classifying people as Same or Other, even when we don't want to. For me, the dark shadow of Kennedy's assassination does not loom so large (now Watergate--there's a dark shadow!)--despite my being a Texan. For me, it's slavery. It's one of the Great Crimes Against Humanity, and it still reverberates down the centuries and shows no sign of being resolved anytime soon. It has separated whites and blacks in America in ways that are very difficult to overcome, and this causes great harm to our culture. "Can't we all just get along?" Oh, how I wish! I wish we Americans could just wake up one day and find we're all a nice, attractive shade of blue, and just start over, fresh. Consider the income levels, longevity, health, education, rates of imprisonment of blacks and others who have suffered under Great Crimes in the USA, namely Native Americans and Native Hawaiians. I don't buy the genetic argument. The chains of history drag heavily. The shadow continues to haunt the country. And yes, as much as I hate China's human rights record, I have some real problems with that of my own nation. Japan has similar problems. It's hard to treat the 3rd-generation Korean coworker (who speaks only Japanese and has never been to Korea, yet is not a Japanese citizen but rather a permanent resident alien) like one of the guys. Possible, but that war thing is always just under the surface. The slavery thing. The never-stated "you can never be truly Japanese" thing. It must be weird to see Canadian guys get instant citizenship so they can play on the Japanese hockey team for the Olympics, or to see Samoan sumo wrestler Musashimaru granted citizenship, and know you'll never get it. So you proudly say you don't want it. And then you have to listen when Japanese people say "Koreans don't want to be Japanese citizens, because they get special tax breaks." And they really think it's so. They probably don't even mean anything bad by it. The only Japanese who really seem to hate Koreans are idiotic ultranationalists and some old farts. But everyone seems to know what Koreans think, what they want, what they're like. Japan has the largest number of archaeologists per capita in the world. The government wants it that way. Digs are going on constantly to find evidence of Japan's glorious past. And if you want funding, you probably shouldn't be party to the theory that the Japanese are descended from the Koreans. Ignore the fact that this is the most widely accepted theory in every other nation on the planet. Find evidence that the Japanese are descended from the Mongolians, or even better, that they just sprang out of the ground in Japan or something. Oh, and let's hold the World Cup in both countries so we can improve relations. Ignore those old comfort women. They're just a bunch of ex-prostitutes. Shadows...someone give me a searchlight. I want to blast the shadows away. I want it so. damn. bad. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:21:53 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Men / Women (part 2)+Child Soldiers In a message dated 28/9/99 10:39:48, joshaw@slip.net writes: >Or alternately, you could post jpgs of the experiance to the Ice Cave >(Davide willing of course) for the rest of us (or at least the MIB and >I) to enjoy. > >OBDG: Never, and I mean never, take a blow job from a Tcho-Tcho hooker! > >-----Josh > Actually, that's illegal. I'm 14. Which leads into another dead topic I've reduced to essential salts: Child Soldiers. I believe that if I had the requisite blasphemous tome, and the inclination, I could learn Shriveling. But I'm 99th percentile nationwide, and while there are plenty of messed up smart people, they usually have some more minor problems than those engendered via mowing down people at age 7. So I find the arming of these TotenTots (tm) with spells to be dubious at best. Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:36:58 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Security Breach In a message dated 29/9/99 9:44:21, fhanke@iiic.ethz.ch writes: >Be seeing you, > Agent Edwards > >P.S: Do I get promoted to D-Cell now? :-P > No criticism intended, but I think that apart from A-cell, seniority, and not "letter" should be the guiding rank indicator. Let's say agent Edwards does get promoted. What happens to the former agent DONNEL? What does D-cell do? How do we keep secrecy, as DEDWARDS still knows the rest of D-cell? So just keep the date you join, and stay in-cell. On a side note, I think code names should be retired with the agent. For example, XAVIER is dead. His replacement is XENOPHON, and there will never again be a XAVIER. At least, that's how I do it. I feel DG should have a great deal of respect for those who fell fighting the good fight. The late Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:16:05 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: DG: Your mom on a stick Just like to correct something here, and insult the faith of everyone on the list while I'm at it. Consider your faiths insulted. My previous post about the statue was contributed by someone else, he knows who he is, and I don't know if he wants to just lurk or use an alias or his real name, so I won't give it. Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:44:08 -0800 From: "Nomina sunt odiosa" Subject: DG: Pope pius Just a short question; was he the same pope that made Mussolini kick Crowley out of Italy, or was it the one before him? +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The coolest site for free home pages, email, chat, e-cards, movie info.. | | http://www.goplay.com - it's time to Go Play! | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:09:15 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Another Nazi/Karotechia Rant In a message dated 9/30/99 6:27:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, furrylogic@mindspring.com writes: << Matters what you mean by intelligence. If mean you how much and how quickly one acquires knowledge, then yes, fascists can be extraordinarily intelligent. If you mean critically analyzing that knowledge to explore its meanings and create something more than the sum of its parts, then no, fascists, like those who fervently believe in any ideology, are dumb as a post, at least to whatever particular subject that ideology is concerned. >> <> I agree with your insights concerning their views on ideology. The point I want to make is that too many people want to equate the Nazi/neo-Nazi movements with knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who are incapable of a degree of independent thought (though heavily slanted those thoughts may be). These people are intelligent enough to be a real threat. They have the potential to be more than a group of rednecks dragging people to their deaths and burning churches. When one looks at Hitler and his group who in their right mind would have predicted their rise to power and the extent of their evil? They have the capacity for intelligent schemes and operations. I also wanted illustrate how they could exploit that little bit of prejudice that exists in sane people given the right circumstances. That's their true danger. I personally think their ideology is complete garbage. I do believe that their ideology is still dangerous and they are capable of more than they are given credit for. That's what I mean by intelligent. - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 02:28:08 +0100 From: "JT" Subject: DG: Re: KGB Files - -----Original Message----- From: Jimmie Bise, Jr. To: Delta Green List Date: 30 September 1999 02:53 Subject: DG: KGB Files >This is something that's not been mentioned here, that I can recall. >Apparently, a Soviet Dissident by the name of Mitroshkin (sp?) defected and *snip* I mentioned this a while back. The book is the Mitrokhin Archive by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin. ISBN 0-713-99358-8. It's pretty meaty and very dry in places. But overall, recommended reading. See ya Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:19:01 -0400 From: "Jimmie Bise, Jr." Subject: DG: Re: Re: KGB Files >I mentioned this a while back. The book is the Mitrokhin Archive by >Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin. ISBN 0-713-99358-8. > One of the more tantalizing bits from this book, as far as I can see, is the presence of KGB "Green Boxes" all over the United States and several other countries. Apparently, KGB operatives secreted caches of weapons and communications equipment and other sundries all over the countryside for use if necessary. Here's the twist, most, if not all, of them are booby-trapped. According to Mitrokhin's notes, the instructions for disarming said traps are quite detailed and not easy at all. From one report I read, one of the instructions goes something like this: If you should hear a "click" while completing the last instruction, you now have ten seconds to complete this instruction. Cool stuff. - -Jimmie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 22:26:06 EDT From: LizardRoi@aol.com Subject: DG: What I expect, and what I demand (was: Nazi Religion and the Church) In a message dated 9/30/99 10:37:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, USFORREC1@aol.com writes: << Well, just wanted to throw out some RW history, opinions and possible DG use concerning the Nazis and the Catholic Church. >> And some fine points were made, and rather eloquently, too. However, I am personally far less forgiving of leaders who drop the ball. I'm a pretty laid back type by and large. I don't expect much from most, so I'm seldom disappointed, and consequently mellow rather than bitter. But, I have no patience with people who devote their lives to scrabbling to the top, only to be "just human" when they get there. Let not ambition mock your useful toil, you toadying pissant. You should have stayed in middle management where you belonged, and where the damage you could do would be minimized. Or where you could be easily retired or fired when you fucked-up royally. We have devalued our expectations for the leadership of the world. At every level. Consequently, leadership has shown itself more than willing to lower itself to our minimal expectations. I watch the news. Noncommissioned officers of elite military units are sexually harassing personnel under them. And the personnel have derelicted duty a few times they ownselves. Some pundits say "You can't expect young people at the peak of physical perfection, pumped up on practice; to remain celibate, can you?" O yes I can. Those who can't need not apply. Spell it out in the contract, "Do not fuck your subordinates, especially do not fuck the ones who don't want to fuck you. And yes, blowjobs count." But while you're drawing up the contract, ask yourself why it needs to be spelled out. If you are behaving in a manner consistent with the actions of the bad guy in last week's Baywatch, alarms should go off no matter what rationalization you have concocted. Honor violations at military academies. We get some interesting memes from the pundits when these crop up. One is that the Honor Violation would be "just" cheating in a normal school. This is the "everyone's doing it, what's the big deal?" argument. We hear that one a lot when presidents vigorously violate the constitution. The other question that arises is "How can we expect such extraordinary behavior from mere young people?" By demanding it. I don't expect universal perfection, but I think that I am paying for the right to expect exceptional behavior by each and every cadet at West Point or Annapolis. And wherever those Air Force pukes go. In fact, I think it would be good for such Guarantees of Success institutions like Harvard and Yale to have an honor code with teeth. Well-connected frats, too. I demand exceptional behavior from those I am expected to treat (and reward) as exceptional. I'm a real bastard about it, too. War atrocities. What presently passes for civilization has declared that "I was only following orders" is no excuse. This is no secret, I daresay it's well known. But out of line orders are still given, and people still follow them. And when they are busted, what do they say? Look closer. Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with an organization that makes murdering people by the trenchload easier than refusing to obey orders? What are we to make of a set of personal values that feels the same way? I freely admit to a bias against authority figures of all kinds. It might be all greasy and Freudian, but I suspect it's just part of the package of character traits that go with being me. I'm not entirely unforgiving; I believe in penance. I also believe that dirty laundry should be aired in public. I think we should solicit the opinions of neighbors in judging our actions. I think people who volunteered to run the world should be judged harshly by history when they came up lacking when put to the test. Where would the Catholic Church be if the early Christians took the Vichy option? Better to serve in comfort than to lead from martyrdom? BZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTT! Sorry sport, you wanna put on the shoes of the fisherman, it better be a good fit. Hey, you never know whether you've got saintly potential until you're tested. You don't got. Now lean into it, take one for the team and get your base. Maybe the next guy can get a homer, but we won't know until you get out of the way. That's strike two ya putz, stop swinging, you're not very good at it. This isn't all about you, ya know. Lives are at stake, you selfish prick. Look, consensus reality has been kissing your ass for most of your adult life. Time to pay up. Lead or get out of the way. Following is not an option for the guy at the tippy top, and I think when the next step up is God, you're pretty much at the top. Tough, but fair. That's me. Mark McFadden Is his own harshest critic. I know my own limitations. Consequently, I do not put myself in situations that I am ill-equipped for. I am humbled by my vanity. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 01:40:23 EDT From: DHammann@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII In a message dated 99-09-30 15:31:12 EDT, you write: << Maybe you ought to look into John Paul's connection with Opus Dei, >> Good Grief! the Opus Dei is as far right in the Catholic Church as you can go! Pope John Paul is far from a favorite of theirs. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 1999 09:17:31 BST From: Jacob.Busby@hantsnet.hants.gov.uk, "BSc." Subject: DG: Various discussion on this list To: deltagreen@nocturne.org From: Jacob Busby, IT Consultant, Tech Futures, IT Data Centre, Hampshire County Council, The Castle, Winchester. Tel: (01962) 845375 Subject: Various discussion on this list I think we're heading deep in Heinlein country with all the Nazi-history "Why didn't good people stand up and fight against the nazis?" debate on the list. > I think one of the major errors of the Bekenntniskirche and other protestant > groups in Nazi Germany was: Their Pacifism. On the other hand Pacifism seemed to work for Mahatma Ghandi. You can't dismiss passive resistance out of hand. > It's an old joke one of my friends usually makes: "The only guy in the USA > that figured out Hitler from the beginning and did something about it was > Chaplin" paradoxical, but sadly close to the truth. Cf. The Great Dictator. Incidentally wasn't the un-named foreign power involved in Hitchcock's interpretation of Buchan's "The 39 Steps" meant to be Nazi Germany? _________ "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted" /__ __/ /__ __/ / / . / Groucho Marx /___/ /____/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:07:59 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church I apologize. I did not meant to insult faiths. I just mentioned this born again guy [ whom BTW I consider a friend ] since I used him as a very well loved NPC. ECKHARD Shane Ivey schrieb: > Cool! Another bunch of messages denigrating Christians and Christianity! > Just what I look for in a discussion of Delta Green and the Cthulhu Mythos! > Why waste our time talking about the games and literature when we can insult > the faith of fellow list members? > > Folks, I'm not terribly sensitive about it, but sometimes this sort of thing > does get annoying. > > Shane Ivey, Editor and Webmaster, Zealot.com > Hecklers Online, Inc: www.hecklers.com - www.ant.com - www.zealot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:07:59 +0200 From: EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) Subject: Re: DG: Various discussion on this list Jacob.Busby@hantsnet.hants.gov.uk, BSc. schrieb: > To: deltagreen@nocturne.org > > From: Jacob Busby, IT Consultant, > Tech Futures, IT Data Centre, Hampshire County Council, > The Castle, Winchester. Tel: (01962) 845375 > Subject: Various discussion on this list > > I think we're heading deep in Heinlein country with all the Nazi-history "Why > didn't good people stand up and fight against the nazis?" debate on the list. You're right and I am sorry. Therefore this will be my last comment on this topic. > > > I think one of the major errors of the Bekenntniskirche and other protestant > > groups in Nazi Germany was: Their Pacifism. > > On the other hand Pacifism seemed to work for Mahatma Ghandi. You can't > dismiss > passive resistance out of hand. I'm glad you mentioned Ghandi and how Pacifism worked for him. Though I might get kicked for this one: Take history's three major pacifists and passively resisting: Jesus, Ghandi, Dr. King and tak a closer look at how there lives ended. ECKHARD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:41:43 -0700 From: Jeff Ewing Subject: Re: Dark shadows (was: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII) At 09:25 AM 9/30/99 +0900, the redoubtable SuperDave wrote: [large snip of excellent (= I agree with) stuff] >Japan has the largest number of archaeologists per capita in the world. The >government wants it that way. Digs are going on constantly to find evidence >of Japan's glorious past. And if you want funding, you probably shouldn't be >party to the theory that the Japanese are descended from the Koreans. I've read that one site tending to support this view was paved over, but that could just be Japan-bashing. Any skinny on this, Dave? I like the idea of Government Archeologists. . .which reminds me, I know one here in the US (Park Service) and what do you think her job is? Surface surveys of known sites which will not be excavated until techniques improve significantly. The reasoning is that much important stuff has been lost (think Schliermann washing Trojan pots so they'd look nice in the Reichsmuseum) due to bad technique, so some stuff should stay in the ground for now. At least, that's the story. . . Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 16:28:05 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII Greetings. Agent Xavier offers a good opportunity to push some good reference on listmembers. >But it true that Hitler was, how to put it delicatly, INSANE! He did a hell >of a lot of other stupid stuff, and it was my impression that the German >populace didn't actually know that he was killing 6 million Jews. That they >didn't see jews around any more, yes. That they were being killed, probably. > The real numbers and conditions, no. But I could be wrong. Yes, I'm sorry to say you are. Not about Hitler's insanity (which is a very complex matter in itself), but about the German population's lack of knowledge. Check out "Hitler's Willing Executioners", by Daniel Johan Goldhagen [sorry, I do not have ISBN coordinates as I own the Italian edition] The book (which is half a brick of a tome, and chilling in its pursuit of details) documents the fact that the vast majority of the German population knew about the extermination going on, and could not give a damn. Or to put it even more clearly - it was all right with them. No fuzzy concepts, no "they're being relocated in <....>" No big shock for the protagonist of "Fatherland". The knowledge was there. While some of the conclusions the author reaces are probably biased (he sees the whole in a too damn pessimistic light, IMHO), the documentary sources are there to check, and leave little or no doubt about the fact that Hitler (and the nazi propaganda machine) had succeeded in "selling" the Holocaust to the majority. A damn fine read, if depressing. Worth every cent you spend for it, expecially if you are into contemporary history. End of plug. Take care Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 16:31:33 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Nazi Religion and the Church Greetings. Gil wrote.... [lots of good Church-based campaign ideas snipped] > I could >easily see a DG-style subrosa society within the Church opposed to the >Mythos (St Jerome's boys perhaps - I dunno, as Davide's site crashes >everytime I try to read that stuff) vs another secret wing of the Vatican >who are using the Karotechia similar to how MJ-12 thinks they're using the >Greys. The St Jerome site crashes?! I was not aware of that - I'll check it out tonight. For good measure, I'll also collate the original posts and the various comments and place the thing in the Cave on the next update. Just a thing - anyone gets to a page of mine (Cave included and foremost, of course) and it crashes, please drop me a line. Thanks. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:22:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "G. Wyckoff" Subject: DG: Ignoble awards and the DG researcher. Don't ever remember seeing this make the list, so thought I would post it up. Was reading thrhough this year and previous Ig-nobel award winners (at http://www.improbable.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html#ig1998) and found this interesting award, given in 1998: LITERATURE Dr. Mara Sidoli of Washington, DC, for her illuminating report, "Farting as a Defence Against Unspeakable Dread." [Published in "Journal of Analytical Psychology," vol. 41, no. 2, 1996, pp. 165- 78.] That's one none of my players had tried before.... Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:25:29 EDT From: SGlancy12@aol.com Subject: DG: DARK THEATRES: INQUIRY/SURVEY Dear Pagan Consumers, This is for all of you out there who purchased Delta Green: Dark Theatres. I need you guys to let me know a couple of things about this book. Number one is the binding. We've been getting reports that the binding on these limited editions is very poor. For anyone who has a binding that's falling apart, please send me email directly and let me know. We'll want to make amends on this issue and need to know who's been affected by it. Secondly, I need some feedback from you guys on the quality of the various stories in Delta Green: Dark Theatres. Please rate each story you've read from 1(terrible) to 5 (excellent). If you haven't read them all, let us know which ones you haven't gotten to. Feel free to include specific comments as to which elements either pleased or disappointed you concerning each story. Please email your reviews and notices about the bindings directly to me at SGlancy12@aol.com. Also include your snail mail address as we will arrange for some kind of goody to be sent to you for your efforts in this matter. Thanks & Be Seeing You, A. Scott Glancy, Pagan Publishing Business Manager ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:50:02 +0100 From: "JT" Subject: DG: Re: Re: Re: KGB Files - -----Original Message----- From: Jimmie Bise, Jr. To: Delta Green List Date: 01 October 1999 03:45 Subject: DG: Re: Re: KGB Files >>I mentioned this a while back. The book is the Mitrokhin Archive by >>Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin. ISBN 0-713-99358-8. >> > >One of the more tantalizing bits from this book, as far as I can see, is the >presence of KGB "Green Boxes" all over the United States and several other >countries. Yeah. I thought the directions to the one in Sweden were hilarious. Especially as the dump disappeared after some mysterious ``road works'' in the area when the location was printed in Focus magazine. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 18:05:16 EDT From: USFORREC1@aol.com Subject: DG: The Institution Well, in an attempt to navigate myself out of the religious minefield I wandered into I wanted to pose a more DG-relevant series of questions and thoughts that were sparked by the recent debate (and that I would like to work into my campaign way on down the road). Consider the following scenario: No secret organization can stay completely secret forever and the worst has happened, DG has been compromised (Be it by a crusading Phenomenon X, a MJ pushed past the rules of engagement or whatever). Full disclosure has been shown to the American people. What does the average public Joe's opinion of Delta Green and its mission? What could and would DG make public to save itself and its mission? You have to look at this question through the lens of both Delta Green Agents and not role-players who know everything about the mythos. What does DG really have they can show to justify their existence? What will that public make out of its cowboy operations (everything from Cambodia to Waco)? Could the public really form an unbiased opinion of us and what will history say of us? Another thought. We often look at history and current events as possible DG ops either carried out successfully or botched. What skeletons are potentially lurking out there in the DG closet? What deals with the devil has DG made either for good or ill? Would DG during WW2 have dealt with rival Nazi members to destroy the Karotechia? Did DG ignore the Holocaust for its own pursuit of the Mythos? Were other assassinations, scandals and events in history the effects not of DG involvement but the group giving reign to another group (the Fate, MJ or whoever)? Rules of Engagement has several examples of this and I would love to possibly trace other instances, so if anybody has some ideas on any of the above, let me know (I've developed some but that will have to wait for a later post). - -Dave K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 18:15:52 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Another Nazi/Karotechia Rant In a message dated 30/9/99 5:12:29, USFORREC1@aol.com writes: > I personally think their ideology is complete garbage. > In my opinion, all ideology is. For example, many of the views of the Catholic Church are total BS. The good thing about ideology is the effects it achieves. Here I would have to say the Catholics do damn well (with the exception of the Inquisition and birth control), along with Communism in the American labor movement, and Fascism is down below almost all cults of personality. Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 18:28:46 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: What I expect, and what I demand (was: Nazi Religion and the Church) In a message dated 30/9/99 6:28:47, LizardRoi@aol.com writes: > War atrocities. What presently passes for civilization has declared that >"I >was only following orders" is no excuse. This is no secret, I daresay it's > >well known. But out of line orders are still given, and people still follow > >them. And when they are busted, what do they say? But it should be an excuse! For every other military offense, it is! When someone has absolute authority, they also have absolute responsibility. If you are caught looting, and your Lt. ordered it, HE, and NOT you, are tried. This is because when the fit hits the Shan, you don't have time to ask questions. A bad order is better than none. OTOH, I think this is one situation where eye-for-an-eye justice is appropriate. If the officer ordered torture, he (and NOT the men who carried it out) should be tortured. Please don't argue with me on-list. If you really must, you can send it to me at: Kiss-my-a$$@I-have-no-life.com Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 19:02:57 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: The Institution Ooohhhh... This isn't just a can of worms, this is the patented Big Bubba's Barrel O' Worms! It's all spin. And we know MJ-12 has all the spin doctors. They want us to look like the Army (of the Third Eye, of course) looks. We want to look like the Army _is_, minus the trepannation and the mental instability. If we really spin their @$$e$, maybe we can discredit MJ, or let out the real truth. But that seems unlikely to say the least. As to the cowboy ops, maybe if we told the whole truth right away, we could look like we are within, but not really part of, the gov't (at least, as far as the cover-up stuff goes). It's my belief that most of the cowboy ops were justified (that is, we shoulden't have killed so many people, but if we hadn't, even more would have died. Not meaning that that's how we should have handled them that way, but that in most cases, a cowboy op is better than none. Of course, a pansy investigative op is better yet). Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 01:07:12 -0400 From: "Andrew D. Gable" Subject: DG: Re: The Institution Speaking of "Rules of Engagement" (OK, nobody was really speaking of it), I noticed in the teaser on the TCCorp website that Alphonse and Rabbitman seem to be somehow linked. Now, at the present I'm pressed for cash; would anyone who has the book please enlighten me as to what this is? It looked to me like it may have had something to do with Reggie's death. Andrew D. Gable agable@falcon.lhup.edu The CryptoWeb (back up!): http://come.to/the_cryptoweb/ Delta Green/Equinox: http://www.fortunecity.com/arkham/roswell/80/ "'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes." My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult, "Nervous Xians" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 11:12:38 +0900 From: "David Farnell" Subject: DG: Musings on the Emperor (was Re: Dark shadows) From: Jeff Ewing > I've read that one site tending to support this view was paved over, but > that could just be Japan-bashing. Any skinny on this, Dave? Haven't heard of this, so I can't comment. Still, considering how many nuclear accidents have been covered up, I imagine covering up something like this would be easy. :-) Before on this dark shadows idea, Davide mentioned the Emperor, who I purposefully left out of my original post on the subject. That's because I was already seeing how the Pope/regular folks/etc. thread was going, and didn't want to get into it. Because, you see, the Emperor situation is pretty much identical to that with the Pope. Lots of argument about how much he knew, how much he approved, whether he could have stopped it, whether he wanted to stop it, all that. No clear answers--in one book I'll see someone offer "proof" that he was as culpable as Tojo, and in the next I'll see that proof refuted. (Personally, I would have held him responsible at the time no matter how much he knew--he was in the driver's seat, and if he can't be bothered to watch the road, that's no excuse when the car plows into a crowd of people. But then, I have a well-developed phobia against unelected leaders, especially the ones who claim divinity. So I'm biased.) Anyway, it's a quagmire and wouldn't have really led anywhere constructive. BUT...to focus it on DG: I've long favored the idea that perhaps the claims of State Shinto* are right. That is, the Emperor IS a god! Or maybe on the way to becoming a god. But of course, we're talking god in the sense of minor-deity minion of the GOO. Maybe Hirohito and Hitler were working together in that occult treasure hunt, and we just didn't hear as much about Imperial Japan gathering occult objects. (They've got ninjas, after all--they make less noise than those jack-booted Nazis.) Then again, Japan already has several important occult objects, particularly the Three Imperial Treasures: the Sword, the Mirror, and the Stone. Perhaps when the stars come right, and with a large enough blood sacrifice/life-energy release (like the Rape of Nanking, or the Nazi death camps) and the proper artifacts, one can ascend. Hirohito failed. Hitler did too...we hope (maybe the reason his body burned was that the energy was flowing through him to raise him up--and maybe the bullet in his head was from a DG agent). Following the war, the Emperor rescinded claims to being divine and took on a ceremonial role, but there are lots of ambiguities in his statements and in the Constitution regarding his status. There are those who (seriously, real-world) think the new Emperor is playing his father's waiting game, pretending to be harmless while gathering power for a future reestablishment of Imperial rule. In game terms, this could be waiting to make another attempt at godhead. In this sense, I would say the Yakuza and the ultranationalist thugs are allied to the secret plans of the Emperor. They may not know it, but as long as they don't learn of the Mythos connections, they'd approve. Would the regular citizens approve? Hard to say. Japan is a democracy, but I get the feeling that if it changed government type without an immediate change in lifestyle, not many would complain. People hardly vote anyway, and the attitude of "let the experts (the government) take care of those things" is VERY deeply entrenched, disturbingly so. (Yes, I know, it's too much that way in America, too, but nearly as bad as in Japan.) Hopefully, the recent nuclear accident, which showed how really incompetent the government is in an emergency, will get a few more people thinking maybe they should pay more attention. (BTW, I'm in no danger, but that was uncomfortably close to Jay Noyes--you all right, pardner?) Dave *State Shinto was mentioned recently. I want to point out that it is no longer a government-approved religion, and that the separation of church and state in Japan is even stronger than America's. Most people vehemently dislike the idea of a state religion, considering what it got them last time. In fact, religion in general has a very weak hold on the average Japanese these days--most everyone is Buddhist or Shinto or both, but it doesn't play much part in their lives. This is part of the reason AUM was able to recruit so many bright people--many feel a spiritual void. Most people, however, aren't bothered by it, and they tend to be quite tolerant of other religions (as long as they're not scary, like AUM). They just rarely join. At the YMCA, I have a lot of Christian students, and it seems to me the Japanese Christians are quite devout, but still very tolerant. Not a surprise, as most of their family and virtually all of their coworkers and neighbors aren't Christian. Also, most Christians in Japan are intellectually inclined, whether they are recent converts or come from a Christian family. State Shinto was a recent development in Shinto and really lasted only a short time, although it's still around as a shadow of its former hugeness. Regular Shinto was really never very organized or doctrinal. The Emperor played (and still plays) a ceremonial role, sort of like a high priest, not really so much like a pope. But it didn't come from him--Shinto was around much longer than there has been an Imperial line. The basics of Shinto are simply the belief that there are gods everywhere, most of whom are merely nature-spirits and ancestor-spirits, and people should honor them. These spirits can help people with luck, good crops, healthy babies, etc. Usually only the local gods are worshipped--if you've ever read the stories about Amaterasu and Susanoo, Izunagi and all that, then you know more about it than the average Shintoist. Those "big" gods are not well-known to the regular folks, who just put a cup of sake in front of that funny-looking rock in the back yard, clap their hands, and pray. There's a god in that rock, and he likes sake. So he'll give the family good luck if they keep him happy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 14:18:30 +0200 From: Davide Mana Subject: Re: DG: Musings on the Emperor (was Re: Dark shadows) Greetings. I'm staying away from Dave K. can of worms for the time being, and thankfully Dave (another one... we could file some papers with the Powers That Be to be recognized as Independent Race) started something that's closer to my fields of knowledge. So, from his backwoods dojo in the Higa lands, Farnell-sama wrote >BUT...to focus it on DG: I've long favored the idea that perhaps the claims >of State Shinto* are right. That is, the Emperor IS a god! Or maybe on the >way to becoming a god. But of course, we're talking god in the sense of >minor-deity minion of the GOO. Maybe Hirohito and Hitler were working >together in that occult treasure hunt, and we just didn't hear as much about >Imperial Japan gathering occult objects. (They've got ninjas, after >all--they make less noise than those jack-booted Nazis.) The guy you're looking for is count Otani Kozui, and the book you need to check out is "Foreign Devils on the Silk Road", by Great Game expert Peter Hopkirk (Oxford publishes it in Europe, but I think the International Ed. is by Japan's Own Kodansha Publishing Ltd.) Otani was the leader of a thing called "Jodo Shinzu" - the "Pure Land Sect" (a Buddhist group that needs an in-depth DG investigation _now_). He was also the head of a scholarly institution in Kyoto that trained Scholar Monks. Starting in 1902, said Scholar Monks were unleashed in Chinese Central Asia - - the Taklamakan area in particular, but they roamed a bit - to dig for any solid proof that the Japanese were indeed originary of that sector (this central-asian origin being one of the Jodo Shinzu mainstays). Scholar Monks my foot, of course. Two guys that the Brits investigated in 1905 were Tachibana Zuicho - actually an Imperial Navy officer - and Nomura Eizaburo - an Imperial Army officer. So you get the picture. Hmmm.... I said they roamed a bit. They roamed enough to set both British and Russian spy networks in the area, and they trespassed in places like the Karakorams and the Hymalayan plateaus (....) They took tons of notes, and dug out tons of stuff. All in all, in a few years Otani-san gathered the third largest collection of Central Asian artefacts in the world (after the ones collected by Stein for the Brits and by Von LeCoq for the Germans). A rough 1500 individual pieces, including statuary, paintings and frescoes, pottery and _books_ were collected according to cautious estimates. But the bulk of the stuff was lost (more about this later, eh?). Roughly a third of the Otani collection should be curently on displayin Tokyo National Museum, in the Eastern Antiques Wing. The items on display are those that Otani kept after selling his Kyoto villa (about 100 pieces), plus the ones that he donated to Kyoto Museum (249 pieces) and to the Imperial Family (actual number of pieces unknown). What about the rest? Well, to start with, nobody's sure about the actual amount of Otani's collection. His men were not trained archaelogists, you see, so they did not keep detailed records of their findings (yeah, sure!) Part of the stuff (paintings and statuary mostly) was put on display in Kyoto Museum in 1910, but no catalogues or records survive. Otani later sold his Kyoto villa to the Japanese Minister of Finances, and part of the missing two thirds of his collection went with it. Soon Minister exchanged the material for mining rights in Korea and so a first slice of Otani finds disappears down the Seoul way. The items (about 500 of them) should be packaged away in a dusty warehouse. Sounds familiar? Later still, Otani donated (why?) the remaining unaccounted-for third of his collection to the Governor of Manchuria. The stuff was lost with the fall of Port Arthur, and Japanese scholars today believe it was taken by the Russians. Otani himself fades in the background after the 1910s, but on the other hand he died in 1948 (AFAIK). Unit 731? I don't know - but he might have manouvered to take a look at Von LeCoq's finds that the German Ally had in store. A sad occurrence, therefore, that the bulk of the German Central Asian collection of artefacts was destroyed during the Berlin bombings, and just a few photographs and an _incomplete_ list of acquisitions survive. The Berlin Ethnological Museum was hit no less than _seven times_ between November 23rd (JHC, I'm not making this up!) and January 15 1945. Curious, eh? Is this food for thought enough? I hope so. Sure needs work, but something big and nasty could be laying herein - or in Kyoto. Kyoto - a town that for some reasons I link with ninjas. As I said, needs work. But check out Hopkirk's book, if you have the time. There's a lot of DG-worthy stuff in there. Actually, any of the volumes in this author's opus should well please lovers of espionage, recent history and eastern subjects. So, think this over, gentlemen. And take real good care. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@iol.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #88 *******************************