From: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org (deltagreen-digest) To: deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Subject: deltagreen-digest V2 #92 Reply-To: Delta Green List Sender: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Errors-To: owner-deltagreen-digest@nocturne.org Precedence: bulk deltagreen-digest Tuesday, October 5 1999 Volume 02 : Number 092 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:59:08 -0700 From: Phil A Posehn Subject: DG: Old SF story I recall a SF story I read in high school (long ago when smilodons roamed the earth) thet had the ghosts of all of the authors of banned books attacking the first colonists on Mars. The last 2 to be banished were, of course, HPL and Poe. I think it was by Bradbury. Does anyone remember the title of the story and which anthology it was in? I want to turn my players on to it. Phil Posehn ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:53:02 -0700 From: Phil A Posehn Subject: DG: Re: stranger than fiction Interesting! Do you have any more on this? Phil On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:06:45 -0700 Jeff Ewing writes: >At 12:29 PM 10/5/99 -0400, you wrote: > >>Ickle has adpated the infamous 'Elder Zion' stuff (re: the Nazi >propaganda >>indicating Jews were ruling the Earth, > >Steady on! The _Protocols_ are probably the most successful >disinformation >coup of the Ohkrana, the Tsarist Secret police, operating in >conjunction >with the Synod of Moscow. Original date of publication: 1901. An odd >bit >of trivia: the Protocols are actually what we would call today a >"rant" >against Napoleon III, purporting to be his credo. The authors merely >switched the word "Zion" for "France," a task which must've been a lot > >tougher pre-word processing. > >Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:22:54 -0400 From: graemep@immagene.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) Subject: Re: DG: Shan Question (Possible Countdown Spoiler) >On 5 Oct 1999, Peter Devlin wrote: [Spoiler sapce retained] >> >> POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER >> >> POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER >> >> POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER >> >> POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER >> >> POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER >> >> POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER >> >> POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER >> Why don't they simply use a Gate spell, one end tethered at Goatswood, >> the other at Lgggyyyyyxxxx then shove their templeship through on a >> transporter? Then Dan wrote: > I think that the shan may indeed be unfamiliar with most gate >technology. From what descriptions of their history I've seen, >they've been largely dependent on their Azathoth-powered vessels >for their conquests. Under such circumstances, the shan may not >have used much gate technology at all before Shaggai exploded. >I'd say it's likely that the small number of Shan who made it >to earth have forgotten all about gate technology, or aren't sure >about how to go about finding it. Or even that it would be impossible to use this option. The Templeship uses a gate to Big A. as it's powerplant... so what happens if you take a gate within a gate? It could lead to some interesting worm hole type effects and possibly the release of Big A... which would be a terminal event for the occupants of the Templeship. Shan live for millenia. They're in no rush to get off the planet by using something that risky. Better to take your time and do things right. Additionally, why gate back to Uranus [can't spell the other thing] when you know that you'll get a hostile reception on arrival? Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:47:01 -0700 From: Jeff Ewing Subject: Re: DG: Re: stranger than fiction At 10:53 AM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >Interesting! >Do you have any more on this? > >Phil You might want to start here, if only for the cool name of the server: http://freemasonry.bc.ca/Writings/ProtocolsHistory.html The same article, plus a downloadable copy of this, the grand-daddy of all conspiracy lunacy can be found here: http://www.igc.org/ddickerson/protocols.html A web search on the term will turn up many sites which would be comical if it weren't for the fact that some of the owners are probably armed, sexually, economically and intellectually frustrated and probably have poor impulse control. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:49:10 -0700 From: Jeff Ewing Subject: Re: DG: Old SF story At 10:59 AM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >I recall a SF story I read in high school (long ago when smilodons roamed >the earth) thet had the ghosts of all of the authors of banned books >attacking the first colonists on Mars. The last 2 to be banished were, of >course, HPL and Poe. I think it was by Bradbury. Does anyone remember the >title of the story and which anthology it was in? I want to turn my >players on to it. It's in _The Martian Chronicles_. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:53:41 -0400 From: Bruce Ballon Subject: RE: DG: RE: stranger than fiction I looked it up..you are right!... interesting enough..I have another source attributing the Protocols were engineered by Nazi propogandists... 'Tis amazing how even disinformation can be disinformed over time... Bruce - -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Ewing [mailto:ewing@postbox.csi.cuny.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 4:07 PM To: Delta Green List Subject: Re: DG: RE: stranger than fiction At 12:29 PM 10/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Ickle has adpated the infamous 'Elder Zion' stuff (re: the Nazi propaganda >indicating Jews were ruling the Earth, Steady on! The _Protocols_ are probably the most successful disinformation coup of the Ohkrana, the Tsarist Secret police, operating in conjunction with the Synod of Moscow. Original date of publication: 1901. An odd bit of trivia: the Protocols are actually what we would call today a "rant" against Napoleon III, purporting to be his credo. The authors merely switched the word "Zion" for "France," a task which must've been a lot tougher pre-word processing. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:55:26 -0400 From: Bruce Ballon Subject: DG: RE: Re: stranger than fiction I'll get a handout from the Green people when the rally occurs and see if it contains any goodies for you. ObDG: Green party...Delta Green?! Bruce - -----Original Message----- From: Phil A Posehn [mailto:paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 1:53 PM To: deltagreen@nocturne.org Subject: DG: Re: stranger than fiction Interesting! Do you have any more on this? Phil On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:06:45 -0700 Jeff Ewing writes: >At 12:29 PM 10/5/99 -0400, you wrote: > >>Ickle has adpated the infamous 'Elder Zion' stuff (re: the Nazi >propaganda >>indicating Jews were ruling the Earth, > >Steady on! The _Protocols_ are probably the most successful >disinformation >coup of the Ohkrana, the Tsarist Secret police, operating in >conjunction >with the Synod of Moscow. Original date of publication: 1901. An odd >bit >of trivia: the Protocols are actually what we would call today a >"rant" >against Napoleon III, purporting to be his credo. The authors merely >switched the word "Zion" for "France," a task which must've been a lot > >tougher pre-word processing. > >Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:28:38 EDT From: Popeyesays@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Old SF story In a message dated 10/5/99 1:12:40 PM Central Daylight Time, paposehn@juno.com writes: << I recall a SF story I read in high school (long ago when smilodons roamed the earth) thet had the ghosts of all of the authors of banned books attacking the first colonists on Mars. The last 2 to be banished were, of course, HPL and Poe. I think it was by Bradbury. Does anyone remember the title of the story and which anthology it was in? I want to turn my players on to it. >> Has to be either The Martian Chronicles or some short story written which led to the longer tale. It sounds like the first episode of Martian Chronicles where the Martians become theperfect small town with all the astronaut's relatives there to tuck them in bed then murder them mercifully in their sleep. The Martians of course suffer severe remorse and do away with themselves so the second party of astronauts finds nothing but the remains of their already moldering civilization. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:18:51 +0100 From: G_H_O@t-online.de (Heiko Aulbach) Subject: Re: DG: Old SF story IIRC It was in the Martian Chronicles, but they weren´t real ghosts. Some guy, who was a real Poe-fan, I think he was called Stendahl or so, built a house with robots or so just like in Westworl, which was only meant to kill one government guy who had something to do with the purity of literature or so, meaning that he and his agency were busy with burnig fiction. Heiko PS: The section is called Usher II and in TMC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:17:18 -0300 From: "DL" Subject: Re: DG: Shan Question (Possible Countdown Spoiler) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel M Harms To: Delta Green List Sent: Terça-feira, Outubro 05, 1999 12:41 Subject: Re: DG: Shan Question (Possible Countdown Spoiler) > > On 5 Oct 1999, Peter Devlin wrote: > > > > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > If they have knew that much about gates, gqate technology, etc; they will not make a flawed templeship (they altered the design, that's why they are stuck) []s, Dream Lord UIN 1504427 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:21:07 -0700 From: Phil A Posehn Subject: DG: Re: stranger than fiction Thanks Loads! Phil Posehn On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:47:01 -0700 Jeff Ewing writes: >At 10:53 AM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Interesting! >>Do you have any more on this? >> >>Phil > >You might want to start here, if only for the cool name of the server: > >http://freemasonry.bc.ca/Writings/ProtocolsHistory.html > >The same article, plus a downloadable copy of this, the grand-daddy of >all >conspiracy lunacy can be found here: >http://www.igc.org/ddickerson/protocols.html > >A web search on the term will turn up many sites which would be >comical if >it weren't for the fact that some of the owners are probably armed, >sexually, economically and intellectually frustrated and probably have >poor >impulse control. > >Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:21:12 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Shan Question (Possible Countdown Spoiler) In a message dated 05/10/1999 2:06:12, pdevlin@scotsys.co.uk writes: >Why don't they simply use a Gate spell, one end tethered at Goatswood, >the other at Lgggyyyyyxxxx then shove their templeship through on a transporter? > Weeeellllll... You see, Gates go up both in cost and in difficulty to create as they get larger. And not arithmetically, geometrically, or even exponentially either, but according to the dictates of other-space math. So quite simply, they can't get enough MPs. Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:35:47 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: Old SF story If it's Bradbury and mars it ought to be in the _Martian Chronicles_. Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:55:48 -0700 From: "Steven Kaye" Subject: Re: DG: Old SF story - -- On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:35:47 Appelion wrote: >If it's Bradbury and mars it ought to be in the _Martian Chronicles_. Confusing two similar stories. "Usher II" is in THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES. "The Exiles," which Phil is thinking of, was most recently published in GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN. Steven - --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:55:48 -0700 From: "Steven Kaye" Subject: Re: DG: Old SF story - -- On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:35:47 Appelion wrote: >If it's Bradbury and mars it ought to be in the _Martian Chronicles_. Confusing two similar stories. "Usher II" is in THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES. "The Exiles," which Phil is thinking of, was most recently published in GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN. Steven - --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:48:05 +0100 From: "JT" Subject: Re: DG: The Mitrokhin Archive - -----Original Message----- From: The Man in Black To: Delta Green List Date: 05 October 1999 01:24 Subject: Re: DG: The Mitrokhin Archive >Hmmm... > >OPTION 1) We Haff Vays of making you talk herr JT. > >OPTION 2) DAMN YOU JT~! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL~! > Oh, okay then. Sorry, didn't know the format for book reviews, but common sense should have prevailed. Is there an FAQ for this list? The Mitrokhin Archive by Christopher Andrew and vasili Mitrokhin, published by Penguin. ISBN 0-713-99358-8 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:55:48 EDT From: SGlancy12@aol.com Subject: DG: COUNTDOWN CONTRIBUTORS Dear Countdown Contributors, First of all, I want to thank everyone for their work on the agency templates. Your efforts went a long way towards making Countdown what it is . . . a really huge book stuffed to bursting with info. Two things: 1) If anyone hasn't gotten their contributor copy, let me know at once. 2) Its about time we started sending out payments. Since some of the contributors are living abroad or are foreign nationals, it has been suggested that they could get more for their money (and avoid those nasty bank charges) if they took their $.03 per word in the form of products or free shipping from Pagan Publishing. I encourage all contributors to write me and let me know if they prefer cash or product. Thanks again, A. Scott Glancy, Business Manager ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:02:59 EDT From: SGlancy12@aol.com Subject: DG: Dark Theatres: Book Binding & Reviews Gentlemen, In the past it has been reported that the limited edition chap-book Dark Theatres had some problems with its binding. Since, believe it or not, we really are interested in "customer satisfaction", we would like to know if your copy is one of the defective items. We want to make some ammends in that department by offering free shipping on your next order, or perhaps a discount on the next product you buy directly from Pagan Publishing. We are still interested in getting feedback on the stories in Dark Theatres. Please submit whatever comments you have. We are not looking for reviews so much as general impressions, likes and dislikes. Again, I ask that besides comments, a rating be given to each story, ranking it between 1 (terrible) and 5 (excellent). Please send your responses to sglancy12@aol.com Thanks, and I hope to be hearing from you soon. A. Scott Glancy, Business Manager ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:12:08 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: Dark shadows (was: Re: DG: 1940s / Pope Pius XII) On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, Jeff Ewing wrote: > significantly. The reasoning is that much important stuff has been lost > (think Schliermann washing Trojan pots so they'd look nice in the > Reichsmuseum) due to bad technique, so some stuff should stay in the ground > for now. At least, that's the story. . . Another big problem in modern archeology are burglars. People who violate sites for personal enjoyment or profit turn a lot of sites into crap. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:32:22 EDT From: Appelion@aol.com Subject: Re: DG: The Mitrokhin Archive In a message dated 05/10/1999 3:50:44, jonno@enterprise.net writes: >Is there an FAQ for this list? Don't start that again! Someone wants to set one up, but I don't think it's happened yet. Agent Xavier ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:37:43 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: The Institution On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 USFORREC1@aol.com wrote: > Well, in an attempt to navigate myself out of the religious minefield Ya low down cowardly dawg... > Full disclosure has been shown to the American people. What does the > average public Joe's opinion of Delta Green and its mission? What could > and would DG make public to save itself and its mission? It's all about media spin. No one would ever give Phenomen-X any serious credibility whatsoever, no matter what evidence they may hold. Without CNN, MSNBC, FOX news and so forth, DG becomes another Majestic wacko conspiracy theory. Saucerwatch and Phenomen-X has probably already made DG public. > You have to look at this question through the lens of both Delta Green > Agents and not role-players who know everything about the mythos. What > does DG really have they can show to justify their existence? DG has no justification. Everything done under the green triangle is illegal and every agent knows it. Agents caught will go to court. Presenting Mythos evidence for mitigating circumstances to the Bar, a Senate Investigating Committee, or whatever is going to expose more DG Agents and friendlies. Once the conspiracy is revealed, not everyone is going to go down. Many Agents will have to reorganize under a new plan. I'm sure A-cell has some sort of contingency for exactly such an occurance, it could even involve my future ex-wife ANDREA. > What will that public make out of its cowboy operations (everything from > Cambodia to Waco)? Could the public really form an unbiased opinion of > us and what will history say of us? Cowboy operations have no real paper trail, just a bunch of guys with guns going in and laying the smack down. The only evidence for such is testimony, and not too many testimonials can be found. > Were other assassinations, scandals and events in history the effects not of > DG involvement but the group giving reign to another group (the Fate, MJ > or whoever)? This can become a real problem, which has been discussed before. DG is only 78 folks or so at any given time. The conspiracy is way too small to be involved in more than one or two historical events a decade. I would also estimate that only one or two national/international media stories would be linked to DG every year, about the same amount of major outbreak events not related to red herring or small scale investigations. Every Keeper has their own timeline, which may or may not differ from real history or even DG history. In my mind, this represents parallel universes like in Sliders which can be shared, melded, etc. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:52:56 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Musings on the Emperor (was Re: Dark shadows) On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Davide Mana wrote: > I'm staying away from Dave K. can of worms for the time being, and > thankfully Dave (another one... we could file some papers with the Powers > That Be to be recognized as Independent Race) No. > They roamed enough to set both British and Russian spy networks in the > area, and they trespassed in places like the Karakorams and the Hymalayan > plateaus (....) > They took tons of notes, and dug out tons of stuff. Hmmm. Occult leanings in Espionage services is nothing new, Walshingham, Dee and countless others used the Occult as an excuse to make cyphers and travel around in foreign lands. That's probably part of the real-life Ahnenerbe, as normal German Intelligence was playing the 5th Column game against the Nazis. Guys handing enigma machines to Turing really could care less about wackos digging for the lost ark. The SS running the show would be able to make Hitler's propaganda machine happy while collecting intelligence under the cover of Archeologists. "Arthur, did you know there are ninjas here?" - The Tick in Japan The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:17:22 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: RE: Musings on the Emperor (was Re: Dark shadows) On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Noyes wrote: > Or, if they have, why shouldn't there be a huge search for them, complete > with deep ones (I believe the swords was lost in a shipwreck.) The sword was found by a certain Rabbit Bodyguard (Usagi Yojimbo) after a sorceress used an army of red crabs (with the faces of dead warriors on their backs) to bring the blade from the sea. Usagi had a few adventures with the Grasscutting sword and eventually placed it in the shrine where it rests today, where most folks think it's a fake. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:27:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Petherick Subject: DG: South Africa - a whole lot of weirdness Due to some recent media reports here in Canada, I was prompted to do some sleuthing on a medical unit called the Seventh Medical Battalion that existed during the apartheid era. I found a lot of really strange stuff - poison t-shirts, racially-selective chemical and biological weapons, research scientists known as "Dr. Mengele" and mutant attack dogs. The director / commanding officer of this unit is currently on trial for a variety of crimes, including being the leading South African manufacturer of Ecstacy and other drugs. Here's some of what I found: A transcript of lecture describing some of the CBW research in South Africa, that may be on the black market http://www.antiterrorism.org/virtualexpo/africa.htm An article from Covert Action Quarterly (a fine publication if you need to raise your paranoia quotient) http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/caq63/caq63apartheid.html Files posted by a Dutch anarchist organization, supposedly from submissions to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (exploration of the rest of this site is recommended, particularly if you read Dutch and can translate the Earth First literature - and there's an animated jpeg of mating snails) http://www.contrast.org/truth/html/chemical___biological_weapons.html An article from a South African newspaper http://www.mg.co.za/mg/news/97june2/27june-mad.html Boerbul superdogs - the genetically engineered attack dogs that are supposedly described by pit bull fanciers as "too vicious" (I guess the dogfights don't last long enough) http://www.mg.co.za/mg/news/97june2/27june-dogs.html Obviously, there has to be some connection to Karotechia. For that matter, the other files on the Dutch site suggest a Swedish connection to the Cult of Transcendence. ********************************************************************* John Petherick, CIH jpetheri@cyberbeach.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:28:25 -0400 (EDT) From: John Petherick Subject: DG: Speaking of paranoia ... A paranoid's page of links: http://a-albionic.com/related.html ********************************************************************* John Petherick, CIH jpetheri@cyberbeach.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:32:12 -0700 (PDT) From: trapper Subject: Re: DG: Ignoble awards and the DG researcher. At 01:22 PM 10/1/99 -0500, G. Wyckoff wrote: > >Don't ever remember seeing this make the list, so thought I would post it >up. Was reading thrhough this year and previous Ig-nobel award winners >(at http://www.improbable.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html#ig1998) > >and found this interesting award, given in 1998: > >LITERATURE >Dr. Mara Sidoli of Washington, DC, for her illuminating report, >"Farting as a Defence Against Unspeakable Dread." [Published in >"Journal of Analytical Psychology," vol. 41, no. 2, 1996, pp. 165- >78.] > >That's one none of my players had tried before.... > > Jerry I thought this had to be bogus, so I looked it up on PsycINFO, an abstract database. It's actually a real study, oddly enough. Here's the abstract: "Describes features of the behavior of a severely disturbed adopted latency boy. The S was born premature, suffered several early hospitalizations and surgeries, and at 2 mo of age was removed from his mother's care by Social Services for neglect. Although his subsequent development has been clouded by a series of losses and changes of caregivers, the S has maintained an unexpected desire to relate, showing considerable innate resilience. When feeling endangered, he had developed a defensive olfactive container using his bodily smell and farts to envelop himself in a protective cloud of familiarity against the dread of falling apart, and to hold his personality together. In the paper M. Fordham's views of development and D. Anzieu's concept of psychic envelopes constitute the theoretical underpinning. W. R. Bion's concepts of beta- and alpha-elements are discussed in relation to Jung's views on symbolic development and psychological containment. ((c) 1999 APA/PsycINFO, all rights reserved)." God, I love psych. SRB trapper@nwlink.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: SDI On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Heiko Aulbach wrote: > to come, after which Mr.Clinton would > decide whether to build an anti-missile shield around the US or not. > Could it be, that the cold war is not really over at all? > If it is over, then why in hell are they testing and building such a thing!? It's congress who controls the money to build such things here in the USA. Anyhow one possible reason is that it takes a major league organization to produce things like submarines, missiles and other top of the line defense systems. If these organizations aren't kept busy, they reorganize and move on. NASA did it after Apollo, USAAF did it after WWII, and corporations of all stripes do it all the time. If the Government decides (after sufficent lobbying and research) that Loral or Lockheed Martin or Northrop's Rocketry Group needs to be around for whatever reason, then they have to throw them a bone in order to maintain their existence. That's one possible reason. Anti-missile missiles are useful against Scuds, Taepodongs, and that sort of thing, and US Navy testings show that the US is seriously considering making such missiles obsolete. This makes testing Taepodongs and similar systems a really bad idea as the US can check out these "threatening launches" just as well as the launcher and use the information for anti-missile development instead of conventional warfare planning. Some might say that some threatening launches could prove deceptive, but that gets a little expensive for nations of that sort. When the US builds anti missile systems, nations thinking about building and buying those missiles, or using them, are given pause. That is the argument of peace. Deception is also involved in this process as previous tests seem to have been "cheated on" by various technological means. "Peace Sells But Who's Buying?" - Megadeth The Man in Black is : cornering the market. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:20:21 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: The Horn of Africa On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Jeff Ewing wrote: > It seems that the rest of the world is simply flabbergasted by 2 of > Africa's poorer nations mortgaging their economies to the neck (both > have been on weapons shopping sprees) to fight over a barren strip of > wasteground. There has GOT to be something in there; animal, mineral or vegetable. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:26:13 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Forties Sourcebook On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 DHammann@aol.com wrote: > The Roman Catholic Church is full of Marxist leaning clergy, even the > Pope himself leans socialist, Not really, he's more complex than that. > but the priests in Liberation Theology were accused of putting Marxist > theology above Catholic doctrine, thus crossing a line. Which is why they gave aid and comfort to the commies, and were fired. The Pope hates communism cause of what happened in Poland, as well as communism's anti-religous doctrine (just another excuse to oppress if you ask me). The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:34:38 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Shan Question (Possible Countdown Spoiler) On 5 Oct 1999, Peter Devlin wrote: > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > POSSIBLE COUNTDOWN SPOILER > > I could do with additional opinions on the following (potential) Shan > spoiler: > > My understanding is that the Shans want to get off Earth but their > templeships don't work within Earth's atmosphere or EM envelope. So they > get involved in the takeover / manipulation of various space agencies, > planning to get outside Earth's range and back to Lggyxx (or whatever, > Neptune?). Shaggai, actually. > Why don't they simply use a Gate spell, one end tethered at Goatswood, > the other at Lgggyyyyyxxxx then shove their templeship through on a > transporter? The ship is too big. That kind of Gate is basically impossible to build for the Shans. Also they are shooting for Shaggai, which means thay have to build the other side on Shaggai. Not the best way to escape if you've already escaped. > They don't have such a spell? That I don't buy as they have the > resources of PISCES, Severn Aerospace and an Azathoth power source at > their disposal. They could get access to one readily enough. Some weird > physical reason? If that were the case they could simply ride a human > host through the gate. > > Anyone come up with a satisfactory explanation? I suppose it could be that Shans are somehow lost in space when Gatewalking. I still think they would have to set up the other end on Shaggai, but I'm unclear on that (no rulebook). The GURPS Gate spell is One way, though. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:07:20 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Shan Question (Possible Countdown Spoiler) On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Diego Garcia wrote: > One possible visitor that could be attracted by an open gate is a hound > of tindalos, and I dont't know if a risk like this is worth the trouble > for a shan In my lost dossier about the ETHOS artificial intelligences, I go into great detail about Tindalos and the Tesseract Factories there. Just thought you'd like to know. > everyone space time.Perhaps to use a gate spell you need a "gate user license" > signed by Yog-Sothoth :-). That's something. The Shan don't seem to use very many spells in published scenarios. Perhaps they only use certain gods like AZATHOTH, XADA-HGLA, and Nyarlathotep in their incantations. The Shan could have a compleate Grimoire and be restricted to holy spells, with all others held to be blasphemous. Their close connection with Azathoth might have something to do with this, essentially "jamming" other dieties and demigods. This wouldn't necessarily prevent them from using such spells, but it could cause an increased chance of failure, extra casting time, or other risk. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:08:46 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: stranger than fiction On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Andrew D. Gable wrote: > BTW, on a sort of related note, I've seen a theory stating that the US is > still part of the British Empire, and that the Revolutionary War never > really happened, it was all an act put on by the two Georges (being > Washington and King). > > Yeah, that's what I said, too. Don't be too quick to dismiss possible Carcosan delusions... The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:13:06 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: The Mitrokhin Archive On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, JT wrote: > Oh, okay then. Sorry, didn't know the format for book reviews, but common > sense should have prevailed. Is there an FAQ for this list? We're working on it. Actually ICE BOY is working on it. > The Mitrokhin Archive by Christopher Andrew and vasili Mitrokhin, published > by Penguin. ISBN 0-713-99358-8 The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:17:35 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: COUNTDOWN CONTRIBUTORS On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 SGlancy12@aol.com wrote: > 1) If anyone hasn't gotten their contributor copy, let me know at once. I haven't! ...wait, am I in the credits...? ...? IT DOESN'T MATTER IF I'M NOT IN THE CREDITS~! The MiB went down and bought the People's copy! > bank charges) if they took their $.03 per word in the form of products or > free shipping from Pagan Publishing. I encourage all contributors to write me > and let me know if they prefer cash or product. Hmmm, is the storage area getting full again? The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:22:40 -0400 (EDT) From: The Man in Black Subject: Re: DG: Shan Question (Possible Countdown Spoiler) On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, The Man in Black wrote: > Shaggai, actually. I mean Xiclotl, really actually. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum Code Z: 233,1,42; 140,39,23; 91,3,7; 5,52,3. http://www.carnwyffa.u-net.com [EMERALD HAMMER] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:21:32 -0500 (CDT) From: MSubias@ix.netcom.com Subject: DG: The Horn of Africa > PS: Ethiopia and their once friendly neighbor Eritria are currently > engaged in a shootin' war (I haven't researched the cause and effect yet) Jeff Ewing said... Let me once again pimp the Economist. The casus belli is an uninhabited strip of desert on the border of the 2 countries. The big battles went down earlier this year, with k's of causlaties. Right now Ethopia is balking at a negotiated settlement by the OAU since they have something like 11x the population of Eritrea, and figure they can preval in a war of attrition. It seems that the rest of the world is simply flabbergasted by 2 of Africa's poorer nations mortgaging their economies to the neck (both have been on weapons shopping sprees) to fight over a barren strip of wasteground. BTW the horrendous casualties were caused by WWI style attacks on defenses-in-depth. > and you don't see any UN Regional Powers or NATO bombers headed that way > to keep the peace. Maybe there aren't any human rights violations over > there? Umm, well, both governments were "good anti-coummunists" back in the Cold War, when Somalia was a Red client state and since no one lives in the disputed area, no ethnic cleansing. Jeff I did a report for my Contemporary Africa class on the revolution Eritrea fought to break free of Ethiopian control. In fact, Ethiopia was a Marxist state during the time Eritrea fought to break free, even to the point of instituting insane agricultural "reforms" a la Mao's "Great Leap," which contributed to the massive starvation Ethiopia suffered during the '70's. Ethiopia even got Cuban advisors (or was it Soviet? It's been awhile since I wrote the thing) to help them with their "glorious peoples' struggle." Despite its size, Eritrea has a history of being able to take care of itself vis a vis Ethiopia. Of course, in those days Ethiopia was fighting on a few different fronts, though it was getting both Soviet aid, and food from the U.S. and others. Idiotic inefficiency allowed much of the food to rot on the docks however, and the Communist leadership made sure to keep the food out of the hands and mouths of Ethiopians that didn't appeciate their authority (which of course included most Ethiopians). The U.S. did have some electronic spook ops going on in Ethiopia during Haile Salase's reign though, before the Communist state. Maybe they had some there after Megistu (or is it Menjitsu?) and his cronys got kicked out. Eritrea is a really interesting place, and based on my somewhat dated reading (done about four years ago), in any conflict between the two countries, I automatically assume that Ethiopia is in the wrong. The report is free to any who request it. BTW, one of the main reasons for the differences between the two countries is that the Italian occupation took place largely in the area that is now Eritrea, and that this boosted literacy in the area considerably. While the Eritreans were used largely for menial jobs, the Italians wanted them to be able to read work schedules, cargo labels, and other things related to their jobs. Also important is that Eritrea has the ports, and the Italians sank some money into the facilities in the interest of developing trade, which the Italians controlled. Marco ------------------------------ End of deltagreen-digest V2 #92 *******************************