From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andrew Kenrick [andrew.kenrick7@virgin.net] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 11:10 AM To: Delta Green Secure Server Subject: DG: Delta Force I'm about to start running my first DG campaign on sunday and was looking for some advice. I was planning to run Puppet Shows and Shadowplays for a few investigators, PX Poker night for a few more and then an adventure of my own (as yet unfinalised) for the last few. The problem is this: one of the players is a Delta Force member and i have a vague idea of how to put him into the campaign, but has anyone else got any ideas on a good intro adventure for special forces? Also, being a brit i'm not entirely sure how US Army ranks work. what's a suitable rank for a delta force squad leader? finally, any idea on standard issue firearms? do the fbi have standard issue? how about the us armed forces (and delta force)? hope someone can help! Andrew andrew.kenrick7@virgin.net From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 2:24 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: I live in a REALLY big city In a message dated 12/3/99 10:10:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, conkle@early.com writes: << Hell, an employee of the NSA is now subscribed to this list. I was personally suprised by the sheer number of gamers that work for the NSA. And they're all really good gamers too. >> Scusi, but I don't remember him ever saying he worked for the NSA. He said he was in the intelligence community for 12 years. Well, shitfire, so was I. Can you say Tempest? So I had a general clearance and a bunch of specific ones and was cleared enough to be escorted into various El Segundo "Black Holes". Someone's got to fix the equipment. Small autobiographical note: I'm married. Separated amiably (we still go to movies together and such), but I cohabited with someone with many higher clearances (Need To Know) than I did. I have to start using a lot of nebulous language here because she still depends on clearances for her job and I've signed a few promises to keep mum my ownself. Let's just hypothesize that one of her duties might have been reading periodicals such as Aviation Week and reporting on what they got right and what disinformation was still believed. And other stuff. One observation from those years: those with enough access to verify what the NSA *really* can or cannot do, and what they really do or don't do, don't identify themselves as members of the intelligence community. Some of it's probably stoking the mystique, but trust me here, they don't ignore loose lips. Even at my modest level, I had to get a polygraph exam upon returning from a martial arts tourney in Ensenada. Why? Because I had undoubtedly talked with foreign nationals over the weekend and I hadn't asked for permission. And incidentally, the polygraph was waiting for me on Monday despite the fact that my going to the tournament was a last minute decision made on Friday evening. So, if we combine what little exposure of the intel community I've had with some other observations, such as: We "know" that records are altered to provide plausible deniability. The logs of subs that have gone into Soviet waters during detente for one example. We "know" that disinformation is a standard tool. The Glomar Explorer for example. We "know" what the equipment we know about can do. I do that for a living. We "know" that "they" will snoop if they feel a need to, and they'll worry about the niceties only if caught. Silly shit like stealing Daniel Ellsworth's psychiatrist's tapes and tapping Martin Luther King's phone calls and such. If you scale down the scope of Semantic Forest to listening 24/7 to specific numbers, then instantly tracing the number of any calls to/from that one and adding them to the list of 24/7 surveillance, we are back in the realm of the presently feasible. Limited only by the will to do it and some game rules saying it's a no-no. You know, like trading arms for hostages. Mark McFadden Doesn't do that anymore. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 4:05 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Howard Hughes, Glomar Explorer and Soviet Subs [was Re: DG:I live i... In a message dated 12/3/99 12:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << Am I right that the Glomar Explorer was that ship officially built by Howard Hughes to exploit the mineral wealth of the sea but really used to try to recover a lost Soviet Nuclear submarine? I saw a documentary about that mission a while ago. Pretty interesting story. Has a lot of DGish elements and kind of begs to be used for a scenario. >> That's the one. It was on my mind because I'm reading a book about covert sub missions right now. Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story Of American Submarine Espionage by Sherry Sontag and Christopher Drew ISBN 0-06-103004-X Lot's of cool stuff. Much of it would make cool backstories for Friendlies and such. A veteran of the Halibut's "Batcave" would be a great surveillance operator. John Craven (in the book) would be a great Friendly. Mark McFadden From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of McGloin, Michael [Michael.McGloin@Olsten.com] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 5:45 PM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: DG: RE: Delta Force Delta force is a was formed as a detachment of the US Special Forces. The formation of their units is probably by team. All member would be at least E-5 Sergeant and probably E-6 Staff Sergeants or E-7 Sergeants. First Class. In a standard unit these men would be in charge of units ranging from squads to platoons.The team commander would be a Captain assisted by an team sergent E-8 Master Sergeant. All would be airborne and special forces qualified in one of the following MOS: weapons specialist,communications specialist, medical specialist or engineering specialist. In addition they may also be ranger, scuba, jungle qualified, winter warfare, ect.ect. These are some of the most highly trained soldeirs in the armed forces. I am basing this only on my knowledge of Special Forces TOE and I am sure it is not completely accurate> You might take a gander around the internet for more. > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Kenrick [SMTP:andrew.kenrick7@virgin.net] > Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:10 AM > To: Delta Green Secure Server > Subject: DG: Delta Force > > I'm about to start running my first DG campaign on sunday and was looking > for some advice. I was planning to run Puppet Shows and Shadowplays for a > few investigators, PX Poker night for a few more and then an adventure of > my own (as yet unfinalised) for the last few. > > The problem is this: one of the players is a Delta Force member and i have > a vague idea of how to put him into the campaign, but has anyone else got > any ideas on a good intro adventure for special forces? > > Also, being a brit i'm not entirely sure how US Army ranks work. what's a > suitable rank for a delta force squad leader? > > finally, any idea on standard issue firearms? do the fbi have standard > issue? how about the us armed forces (and delta force)? > > hope someone can help! > > Andrew > andrew.kenrick7@virgin.net From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Scott Eaker [joneqst@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 8:19 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Force ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Ewing To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 4:15 PM Subject: Re: DG: Delta Force > At 05:09 PM 12/3/99 +0000, you wrote: > > > >The problem is this: one of the players is a Delta Force member and i have > >a vague idea of how to put him into the campaign, but has anyone else got > >any ideas on a good intro adventure for special forces? > > I just recommembered, there's been a recent flap about Delta Force guys > "observing" at Waco. This has US conspiracy nuts going thru the > ceiling Delta Force was (at the time of Waco) attached to Joint Task Force 6, which was formed by Executive Order in order to allow Military units to be used IN NON-COMBATIVE ROLES in the "War on Drugs". Their participation is supposed to be limited to transport and surveillance/reconnaisance roles. They can, of course, defend themselves if necessary, but they have no powers of arrest. Since its formation, one unit of the US Special Operations community has always been assigned on a rotating basis to JTF-6. Not wanting to start an entire "Waco thread", I'll simply say that *someone* in *some agency* mentioned that Koresh might be cooking methamphetamine in his compound...that allowed the FBI to ask for JTF-6 support. It must be said, however, that there is NO evidence that the troopers did anything more than observe and a contact of mine in the SO community has informed me that they were as pissed off as everyone else about the whole affair. For those of you in other nations, the Constitution specifically prohibits Military units from engaging in law enforcement activities (or even training policemen). Also, the FBI's standard issue sidearm is a Smith and Wesson automatic in the .40S&W caliber (I believe its a special version of the model 4004 with a shorter barrel than the "civilian" copy and a double-action-only action). Other agencies DO use the Sig/Sauer P226 in 9mm (the Secret Service among them if I'm not much mistaken). Scott __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Scott Eaker [joneqst@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 8:21 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Howard Hughes, Glomar Explorer and Soviet Subs [was Re: DG: I live in a REALLY big city ----- Original Message ----- From: Eckhard Huelshoff To: Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 2:53 PM Subject: DG: Howard Hughes, Glomar Explorer and Soviet Subs [was Re: DG: I live in a REALLY big city > LizardRoi@aol.com schrieb: > [ HUGE snip ] > > We "know" that disinformation is a standard tool. The Glomar Explorer for > > example. > > Am I right that the Glomar Explorer was that ship officially built by Howard > Hughes to exploit the mineral wealth of the sea but really used to try to recover > a lost Soviet Nuclear submarine? > That would be the one: Project: JENNIFER. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 2:25 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Howard Hughes, Glomar Explorer and Soviet Subs [was Re: DG: I live in aREALLY big city >From: "Scott Eaker" >Reply-To: dgrpg@delta-green.com >To: >Subject: Re: Howard Hughes, Glomar Explorer and Soviet Subs [was Re: DG: I >live in a REALLY big city >Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:20:31 -0600 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Eckhard Huelshoff >To: >Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 2:53 PM >Subject: DG: Howard Hughes, Glomar Explorer and Soviet Subs [was Re: DG: I >live in a REALLY big city > > > > LizardRoi@aol.com schrieb: > > [ HUGE snip ] > > > We "know" that disinformation is a standard tool. The Glomar Explorer >for > > > example. > > > > Am I right that the Glomar Explorer was that ship officially built by >Howard > > Hughes to exploit the mineral wealth of the sea but really used to try >to >recover > > a lost Soviet Nuclear submarine? > > > >That would be the one: Project: JENNIFER. The boat the Soviets lost was not a Soviet SSN or SSBN, but was an SSB (a diesel-powered ballistic missile sub) of the GOLF class. He (Soviet submarines were referred to "in the male gender", unlike the custom in US and NATO navies...) apparently suffered a hydrogen explosion while charging batteries at snorkel depth, sending him to the bottom of the Pacific with all hands. An early book on the subsequent retrieval project, entitled "Project JENNIFER", relies perhaps overmuch on speculation (and claims, among other things, that the Company and Hughes recovered the entire GOLF class boat!). The authors of "Blind Man's Bluff" apparently had access to resources that prior chroniclers did not, and confirm that only the forward section of the boat was retrieved. Apparently, the retrieval claws had taken some damage in an accident just before the GLOMAR was able to grab the submarine, and a section of the claws parted company with the retrieval string and submarine partway to the surface. The submarine, already damaged by slamming into the bottom (some estimates suggest it had been doing 100+ knots when it had initially touched down) could not take the stress, and the unsupported section of the hull broke (not unlike the situation with TITANIC...). The portion retrieved did not contain the nuclear missiles or the cipher machine -- the primary reasons for the entire retrieval effort. A search effort would be required to locate the aft part of the wreck, and the retrieval claw would need to be repaired in any event. Ironically, back when the GOLF had been located, the Navy had deemed it probably too damaged to raise, and -- as a fairly old diesel boat -- probably not worth the trouble of the Company plans to construct a special salvage ship, etc. The Navy's suggestion had been to dive on the wreck with DSVs and ROVs (as has since been done with TITANIC), cut through the hull in the appropriate spots, and retrieve the cipher machine, etc. with remote manipulators. However, the Company had elected to take the more spectacular (and expensive) approach... (Also, the President was apparently interested in paying off some political debts to his friend Howard Hughes...):) Hence, the GLOMAR EXPLORER... Navy reconnaissance of the site after the retrieval accident revealed that the GOLF's aft section had apparently broken up on impact with the sea floor, leaving nothing large enough for the GLOMAR's claws to grab. No sign was apparently found of the cipher machine, etc., but much of the debris field was buried in the sediment. Reportedly, GLOMAR (with modified retrieval apparatus) returned the next year for another try, but didn't bring up anything useful... The last I heard of her, GLOMAR EXPLORER is in the Pacific Reserve Fleet, considered unlikely to sail again (at least as a US Government vessel). This looks like a classic case of under-utilization of a major resource the Government has already paid for, but I suppose they felt that, now that the GLOMAR's cover was blown, her showing up anyplace near where the Russians (or anybody else) may have lost a sub, satellite, nuclear missile, etc. would be taken as a sign the US had found the missing item... (Interesting, though, that the GLOMAR EXPLORER was not used in _non_-covert salvage operations -- there are sure to have been numerous cases since JENNIFER where a really heavy-lift salvage ship would have come in handy, and the operation didn't require strict secrecy! Maybe the Government bean-counters grumbled about reactivation costs whenever this was suggested?) She was briefly loaned to the private sector, but was later returned to mothballs. (Perhaps she will again see action -- in the Atlantic off Nantucket? The Navy is reportedly looking for a larger salvage ship than the GRAPPLE, to retrieve major portions of the Egypt Air wreck...) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 3:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: PAPERCLIP 89 Jeff Ewing schrieb: [snip] > I was thinking about this quite a bit last night. My idea would be: CIA > mounts a crash operation to grab documents, and DG manages to get a > couple of agents assigned to the task. Perhaps these guys might Delta > Force, supposedly there for security as the CIA unit works. But in > fact, they are going to mount their own document collection effort. Besides the obvious targets of such document collection activitie, like the Stasi or the HNA, there's another GDR agency that DG might have taken a closer look at: The "Behoerde fuer kommerzielle Koordinierung [ KoKo ]" ( Agency for the coordination of commerce ), led by the unique Alexander Schalk-Golodkowski. The KoKo's job was to try to get valuta, real money like dollars, Swiss Franks or Westmark into the GDR. To get money the KoKo - guys did about everything: They sold weapons, they had illegal companies around the globe, they even got their share when West Germany paid to buy the freedom of political prisoners, and they sold antique paintings and books. Ten years afer the fall of the wall the KoKo still remains a bit of a mystery, just as it's leader Schalk-Golodkowski a fat bonvivant, bearing the rank of a Stasi-Colonel and that of an "Officer for special duties", a man that provided the members of the Politbuero with Western goods and annoyed them in the fall of 1989, when he appeared in their offices on a daily basis crying, because he was afraid to be killed by either the GDR's citizens or some western service. [snip] > This is the unique perespective you could bring to this project, I > think. I'm going to put together some notes too, which I hope will be > useful rather than distracting. Gracias in advance. ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 10:56 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Howard Hughes, Glomar Explorer and Soviet Subs [was Re: DG: Ilive in aRE... In a message dated 12/4/99 4:39:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, sivey@zealot.com writes: << It's good to see you back, Mr Layne! >> I'll second that emotion. Nice summary Michael. Here's some HUMINT to add to the mix. I found some of the politicking and such fascinating. 1) John Craven. The Navy's premiere deep submersible wonk. He found the Soviet sub (something the Soviets and everyone else had been unable to do) by getting a time tick from the SOSUS array and then asking the experts what they thought happened and where it had come to rest. But instead of soliciting answers in the standard manner, he utilized an algorithm he had found in his reading that got the experts to assign probabilities, essentially making bets on where the sub had come to rest. It was found meters from where he predicted it would be. 2) The DC correspondent for the NY Times had ferreted out that the CIA was looking for a Soviet sub and the project was called JENNIFER. He name-dropped at a party, trolling for a response. The next day he got a phone call from William Casey (former OSS and then head of the CIA), who neither confirmed or denied anything but asked the correspondent to hold off for a few more months after which all would be revealed. The reporter responded that he was busy on this new Watergate story and probably wouldn't have time to chase down JENNIFER for months. The reporter merely wanted to assure Casey that he wasn't looking hard and was busy on a juicier story. But there is no such thing as a simple declarative sentence with these guys. Casey accepted the statement as a bargain, and reciprocated by providing the reporter with Watergate dirt. 3) The major reason Casey didn't want JENNIFER going public was that the Glomar Explorer had just gotten through with royally screwing the pooch and losing all of the (outdated and essentially irrelevant) intel they were hoping to get (John Craven had backed the more modest plan of cutting precise holes and taking the best goodies). It was ugly on several levels. Millions had been spent (against expert advice), the goal was of minimal value and they had lost that, and...let's just say that perception of the whole project was now more important than the project itself. They were now obligated to spend more money to make another attempt to get *something* so that it could be presented as a success. The Soviets, when they became aware of the salvage joined the conspiracy to cover it all up. They didn't want the story to come out because the first embarrassing fact is that a Soviet sub went down and the Soviets couldn't find it. The second embarrassing fact was that the US could. Mark McFadden Trusty Shellback From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of JHunsin@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 2:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FW: DG: Semantic Forests, et cetera. Ok, I guess this got off on the wrong path. First off I apologize to anyone who took my comments as being condescending, that was the farthest thing from my mind. I just hate to see people get all worked up, paranoid and freaked out over something that they really don't have to worry about. Your typical phone conversations by Joe P. Citizen are of absolutely no interest to the NSA or any other agency for that matter. When I said that the NSA and CIA are prohibitted from operations within the US I should have qualified that with the fact that yes, they can under extreme circumstances receive congressional approval to conduct limited operations within the US but again, the situations in which this would occur would not affect a typical citizen and believe me when I say that they do take this VERY seriously in the agencies. How do I know this? When I was a much younger intel type I almost lost my entire carreer for a moments inpropriety with a minor infraction in the realm of domestic collection. I was threatened with much bad stuff and had to hand copy the entire regulation governing such operations as penance for my sin. Someone on the list questioned my credentials on what I would have knowledge of in my 12 years experience. Granted, one might not think that in 12 years I would have knowledge of every op the agency ever undertook but in that 12 years I have done much more than most agency employees do during an entire carreer, including gray and black ops across the globe, Asia, Europe, South America, the Carribean, the Middle East, none within the US. I was only trying to dispell some of the myths that are seemingly rampant these days about the agency. I should have known that my efforts would be fruitless, since that would immediately give anyone license to say "Well of course thats what he is going to say." I know its a lot more fun to say they have files on everyone, alien bodies on the 3rd sub-basement, right next to the death squad training center and they monitor communications between the earth and the aliens on Altair-7 who want their bodies back, and I apologize for trying to kill those beliefs. By all means, I know these sort of rumors make great RPG material and I don't want to discourage that but if people are really concerned and worried about it, there is no reason to be. I love conspiracy theories as much as the next guy! That is one of the reasons I joined this list, that and my wife wants to start GMing a CoC DG type campaign. As Mr. Conkle pointed out, noone ever said I worked for the NSA and I will neither confirm nor deny that, what I can say is that I am in the Army and I am an electronic and computer warfare signal intelligence specialist. Again, apologies for any stepped on toes or perceptions of condescension. As a parting thought though, The NSA and CIA have to go through hell and high water to get authorization for domestic operations, the FBI already has free license for that sort of thing....what agency do you think bears close watching? NM 156 From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 12:08 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Force This might be a bit belated but hopefully of some use to the list, to supplement what has already been brought up. <> Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (SFOD-D AKA Combat Applications Group and Combat Development Group) involvement could be handled in a number of ways. Any action taken outside of the United States could reasonably involve the unit, so if you tinker with the locales of a published scenario or create one of your own, you could slip them in that way. The missions undertaken by Special Operations Forces in today's environment are varied and give you a bit of latitude in involvement. Many units (SFOD-D included) have had their traditional missions muddied considerably by political necessity, military misuse and new threats. That is why you find SFOD-D hunting SCUDs in Desert Storm (a political necessity to keep Israel from broadening the war) or assisting in PeaceKeeping Operations in Somalia (a new threats environment). SFOD-D itself has grown from a hostage rescue force into a covert/clandestine special operations force with many missions outside of hostages. Factor in DG involvement and puppet-string pulling and any overseas mission could include Special Operations personnel with the flimsiest of justifications. Domestically, the involvement gets trickier but far from unlikely. As already stated by others on the list, having them attached as observers, advisors or liaisons can get them involved in any domestic operation. In any case where the threat of terrorism, weapons of mass destruction and so on are involved, military personnel from these units will be involved in these roles. SFOD-D is barred from performing domestic hostage operations (that is the responsibility of the FBI's HRT) but since the inception of Presidential Decision Directive-25 (PDD-25), Delta is exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act in other areas (as an interesting side note and possible DG hook, naval forces are also technically exempt, hence the USMC is exempt). The Joint Task Forces already mentioned provide another avenue for involvement (and a good DG manipulation hook). The Joint Task Forces grew out of then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney's designation of drugs as a threat to national security and Congress followed by passing a defense authorization bill that directed the military to assist in training and materials for law enforcement engaged in drug enforcement and/or interdiction. The Joint Task Forces work with a sister organization within the Justice Department known as Operation Alliance. It is Operation Alliance's job to send requests for assistance from various law enforcement agencies to the appropriate Joint Task Force. The JTF then sees if aid is appropriate based on a set of criteria and forwards the request to the commander of Forces Command (Fort McPherson, GA) who has final authority to allocate personnel and resources. Each JTF has a regional headquarters and a legal staff. The controversy over this system is that many times the flimsiest of evidence and even just the "suspicion" of drugs is enough to allocate military resources (helicopters, APCs, personnel and so on). <> Command Structure: SFOD-D Commanding Officer: Colonel Deputy (XO): Lt. Colonel Squadron Commanders: Lt. Colonel Administrative/Intelligence/Logistics/Operations/Support Directorates Commanders: Lt. Colonels Troop Commanders: Captains or Majors, plus a Sergeant Major Squad Commanders: Senior Sergeants All members of SFOD-D are either Sergeants (E-5) or higher for enlisted or Captains or higher for officers. To enter SFOD-D a candidate must meet the following criteria before beginning the training course: -Male (exceptions for the "Funny" platoon) and at least 22 years of age -Physical evaluation -PT test (including swim qualification) -Psychological evaluation and Background Investigation -Airborne-qualified or able to attend airborne training -Be between the ranks of E-5 (Sergeant) and E-7 (Sergeant First Class) for enlisted -Be either an O-3 (Captain) or O-4 Major with at least 1 year of command experience at the company level for officers -Enlisted must have at least a 110 or higher GT Score and officers must have either a BS or BA degree <> While SFOD-D has the ability to choose weapons outside of the US military arsenal, this is usually only done if a mission would require it for some reason (such as a covert operation). They mostly stay with US-issue weapons for logistical and maintenance reasons. The weapons commonly (but not exclusively) carried are: M-16 series of weapons (depending upon the mission which variant that is carried) Mossberg 500 Shotguns Remington 870 Shotguns M40 Sniping Systems M21 Sniping Systems HK MP-5 series of weapons Beretta M9 Pistols Colt M1911A1 Pistols SOCCOM pistol system Macmillian and Barrett .50 Weapons Systems (these were used in Desert Storm for disabling SCUDs from a distance) -Dave K From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 12:50 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FW: DG: Semantic Forests, et cetera. As usual, many on the list already beat me to my points and sources :) I did want to throw out a few last minute thoughts on domestic operations to add to the mix. First, I definitely agree with the idea that neither any intelligence agency is "bad" or that even 95% of its employees are engaged in illegal activities. I always assumed (and I may be wrong on this) that generally when we refer to the CIA or NSA engaging in a conspiracy, that we really meant a segment operating in a "rogue" capacity. Intel groups are a vital part of American society, the same way the military or the press or even religion is. They perform a function, sometimes distasteful as it may be, is necessary. Most of the employees are hard-working members just doing that job and living normal lives. That being said, however, it is impossible to say that abuses have not taken place and that confirmed or probable conspiracies have not occurred in the intelligence community. We have MKULTRA and MKCHAOS in the CIA, Operation SHAMROCK out of (mostly) the NSA, medical experiments on African-Americans, simulated nerve gas assaults and so. The problem is not with the agencies per say, their mission or most of the employees. All you need is a select few in a position of power and operating under a covert cover to perform these deeds. Even the agency itself will largely be in the dark, sometimes even the directors (though they are ultimately responsible). If the act is covered up, even the oversight committees might never uncover it. These are human institutions (to use one of my old arguments) and are susceptible to corruption and abuse. The same way the press may be misused by a reporter hungry for glory or advancement or a military officer might order an atrocity, these things can (and do happen). And unfortunately, just as every priest is not a pedophile, the actions of a small few soil an entire agency. These individuals operate under many of the same sort of conditions that defectors from these agencies do (illustrating that these human conditions exist). They may do it for ideological reasons (misplaced patriotism or political beliefs in this case), economic gain, personal advancement and so on. Underlings that are brought in may operate under the same conditions, belief they are following legitimate orders, be fearful of losing what they have with agency and so. In some cases, the corruption may not even start with the agency. If a Presidential Finding or Directive or an order from the NSC comes down, many of an agency's leadership are political appointees and now have their asses covered from above. They carry out the orders they've got. Look at how secret FBI files were appropriated by the White House. In a DG sense that is one of the things that makes MJ-12 so powerful and still secret. They only need to control a handful of people directly to make their organization work. They have a few NSA personnel authorize a domestic surveillance sweep that is hidden under the guise of "training" or "systems maintenance." They get what they need and destroy the files, hence appearing to comply with the laws. They move over to the CIA or FBI and put into motion an operation or get a military operation underway or whatever is needed. The information they got is hidden as coming from an informant, not the NSA, and they move. They keep jumping around, utilizing only what is needed from a given agency and using a handful of people in the loop to keep it moving and the links covered up and they can pretty much do whatever is needed. That is what is meant by MJ being the government, they control the key elements and the bureaucracy follows. 99% of the people in the government are working for them and don't even realize it. Many agencies won't even have to break their charters to be misused, such as assigning FBI agents to a domestic surveillance operation and then using that as blackmail material or whatever. The potential for sinister actions can exist when the law is being followed, too. Anyway, enough ranting from me for the moment :) -Dave K From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Duran [dug96@hampshire.edu] Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 8:54 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Force > That's something that always made me wonder, since I first saw that fellow > with the shotgun in "Platoon": Do the US Armed Forces regularly use > shotguns? And is there a special purpose for them? > I see a certain advantage for shotguns in close-range-combat, like in > buildings. Is their another "special" use for it? > The other special use is killing people... actuallly. theres apparently a lot of special purpose ammo avalible for shot guns. stuff thats really good at defeating locks and door hinges for rapid entry(why shoot the lock, when you can shoot the hinges... people forget about the hinges sometimes... Theres also the intimidation factor. Shot guns do more damage at close range, so when you kick a door down, and stick a big (3/4th of an inch?) barrel in someones face... well, you can guess what that does to a mans dignity... Speaking of close combat. sometimes the guy on point doesnt' have time to aim... so... give him a shot gun... who needs to aim when at 50 feet you have a 1 foot blast radius... A special note. aparently the geneva convention outlawed shotguns in war. now, I understand outlawing .50 cal rifles. ("SIR, I WAS SHOOTING AT THE RAIDO, NOT THE MAN CARRING THE RADIO, I SINCERLY REGRET HITTING HIM! SIR") but why out law shotguns? same reason, their "extra" nasty at CQB (close quarters combat).???? well, thats my early morning non-expert perception of the issue... Agent Dyson -is remembering shooting milk cartons with his dad out back after school. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nick Brownlow [stabernide@netscape.net] Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 10:14 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Culture Shock (was: Re: FW: DG: Semantic Forests, et cetera.) Seeing as how the NSA now believe we have nothing better to do than bang on about their (probably) non-existent domestic machinations, perhaps its time to turn to something a little more interesting;- >I couldn't agree with you more. I may be opening a big can o' worms >here, but a relation of mine worked with CIA in the 50's and this person >had a decided class bias. CIA at the time recruited from Eastern >universities while FBI recruited from often Irish law enforcement >pools. This person regards FBI as a bunch of neckless thugs who rely on >informants rather than gathering and analyzing their own data. CIA may >be b*****ds, but they're b*****ds with some breeding. Thoughts or >comments, all? Cultural differences in the US Intelligence Community certainly interest me, and I'd love to hear more- In the meantime, historically, there's been plenty of these kinds of divisions in the UK. Great Britain, of course, is widely renowned for turning class bias into an art form. MI6 for instance, has long had a tradition of having something of an old boys public school atmosphere; hence the old joke;- "As an equal opportunities employer, we welcome applications from all Oxbridge graduates, regardless of gender or race." They've reportedly always looked down on their siblings over at MI5, who've generally enjoyed a reputation as also rans and Grammar school lads. People like John Le Carre served to further put the boot in by publicly talking about a palpable 'atmosphere of failure' about the place; referring to the large number of graduates employed who had failed to achieve their first choice occupations as lawyers, University lecturers, journalists et al. By all accounts MI5 has gone a long way towards overhauling this image in recent years, although allegations of ineptitude and stifling beauracracy by former agents like David Shayler haven't helped. A oft used literary comparison is for MI6 - James Bond; for MI5 - Harry Palmer. MI5, of course, is still composed chiefly of graduates of one kind or another, and as such, they tend to look down on their colleagues in the police; particularly Special Branch (until about fifteen years ago, cops with degrees were virtually unheard of. Most would have joined the force when they were sixteen). This snobbishness has made MI5's growth into areas traditionally dominated by the police- counter-terrorism in particular- particularly interesting. MI5 take the view that the British police do far too little in terms of analysis and intelligence gathering (which compared to the FBI, is very probably the case); vaguely intimating that this is because they don't have the intellectual faculties for it. whatever hostility exists between MI5 and the police however, is strictly handbags compared to the relationship five enjoys with the SAS. This stems from the joint MI5/SAS operation in Gibraltar, 1988, when three unarmed IRA terrorists were gunned down in the street after it seemed that they had spotted their SAS surveillence. Both groups blamed each other for the operation's failure;- the SAS intimating that MI5 had briefed them inadequately, whilst MI5 maintained the SAS had taken their briefing the wrong way, and blown their cover on account of fairly basic tradecraft errors. The SAS has not worked (officially) with MI5 ever since (methinks the Grovesnor square massacre might have put them off some aswell). Finally, the RUC don't get on well with MI5 at all. The SAS, however, appear to enjoy a very good relationship with them. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From: Majordomo@delta-green.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 11:45 AM To: christopher@delta-green.com Subject: Confirmation for subscribe dgrpg -- Someone (possibly you) has requested that your email address be added to or deleted from the mailing list "dgrpg@delta-green.com". If you really want this action to be taken, please send the following commands (exactly as shown) back to "Majordomo@delta-green.com": auth 163784b4 subscribe dgrpg christopher@delta-green.com If you do not want this action to be taken, simply ignore this message and the request will be disregarded. If your mailer will not allow you to send the entire command as a single line, you may split it using backslashes, like so: auth 163784b4 subscribe dgrpg \ christopher@delta-green.com If you have any questions about the policy of the list owner, please contact "dgrpg-approval@delta-green.com". Thanks! Majordomo@delta-green.comFrom: Majordomo@delta-green.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 11:46 AM To: christopher@delta-green.com Subject: Welcome to dgrpg -- Welcome to the dgrpg mailing list! Please save this message for future reference. Thank you. If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe dgrpg or from another account, besides christopher@delta-green.com: unsubscribe dgrpg christopher@delta-green.com If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list, (if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the list itself) send email to . This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need to contact a human. We are here to discuss Call of Cthulhu/Delta Green gaming. Some appropriate topics include, in roughly descending order of importance: * Ideas for DG gaming--rules, scenarios, monsters, characters, etc. * Discussion of Delta Green products, whether gaming or fiction. * Discussion of Call of Cthulhu products, from a Delta Green perspective. * Discussion of current events, from a Delta Green perspective. * Web links to real-world items of interest to list members, provided that you include a brief description of what the link is and how it could relate to Delta Green. * BRIEF discussion of items in popular media (movies, books) from a Delta Green perspective. Extended discussion of such items is discouraged; a qualified recommendation to list members is usually sufficient. Personal attacks and egregiously disrespectful arguments are not permitted. Violation of this rule may result in expulsion from the list. Feel free to take such topics off the list and into private email. For more information on Delta Green, please visit: http://www.delta-green.com For Delta Green products, please visit: http://www.tccorp.com If you have questions or problems with DGRPG, please contact the list administrator, Joseph Camp: alphonse@delta-green.com Please note that while Pagan Publishing hosts this list, the content of this list is not the property of Pagan Publishing nor are its contents to be considered "official" material for Delta Green. Pagan hosts the list as a service to its customers and fans. At the moment, archives and digests are not implemented. We are working on this and hope to have it sorted out soon. Thanks for subscribing! From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of That Lech Guy [lechvoxen@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 2:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: But the newspapers said SO!!! Shtraight from the Turkey's mouth: http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/06/nsa.goes.too.far.idg/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Shane Ivey [sivey@zealot.com] Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 2:08 PM To: DGML Subject: DG: FW: Incident in Alabama I missed this one, I'm afraid; I lived in Hoover (just east of Shelby County) until a month ago. Shane Ivey www.zealot.com - www.gamejudge.com - www.delta-green.com ________________________________________________________ HECKLERS ONLINE IS HIRING: Ad Sales, Marketing, Graphic Arts, Programming, Web Design, & Human Resources! -----Original Message----- Residents report eerie pre-dawn flash >From staff and wire reports 12/06/99 MONTGOMERY — A streaking light in the pre-dawn sky brightened the room where Lee Byrd of Moody was awake with his sick child. "It lit up the entire room. I looked in time to see it burn out," Byrd said of the light about 4 a.m. Sunday. Alabama Emergency Management Agency duty officer Gregg Miller said a mysterious flash in the sky was also reported in Shelby County. Miller said he was investigating. After receiving descriptions of the light and what one witness called a "muted dynamite sound" a few minutes after the light faded, a University of Alabama astronomy professor said the phenomenon might have been "a large meteor." "The meteors come in at such a huge speed ... the air in front of them can't get out of the way, so the air is compressed and starts glowing," said Gene Byrd. Hoover police also received telephone calls about the unexplained light in the sky, as did state troopers. Ike Pigott, a reporter for ABC 33-40 in Birmingham, said he was returning from the Southeastern Conference football championship game when "the entire sky lit up for two or three seconds." Pigott said he called Hoover police. "Nobody has found anything," said a Hoover police dispatcher. "We don't know what it was." The dispatcher said the overnight shift was "inundated with calls." Rick Cain, a Birmingham biomedical technologist, said he was sitting in his sunroom at 4:30 with a friend when the sky outside turned an "eerie, bluish white" for about three or four seconds. "I was actually frozen in terror, frankly," Cain said. "I knew it was like nothing I'd ever experienced." Thinking he may have been seeing the light from a meteor, Cain went outside and listened for a few minutes, then heard "a muted, dynamite sound." To him, that sound meant the meteor had crashed to earth somewhere. Byrd said large meteors travel faster than the speed of sound but can weaken as they travel. "It's quite possible it was something (like a large meteor), but that would be quite an achievement to track down anything like that," Byrd said. Cain said that after watching the light and hearing the distant dynamite sound, he started driving around and contacting other motorists on his CB radio. >From his CB contacts, he said he heard that at one truck stop, "truckers were on their knees. ... They truly thought it was the second coming. They were pulling over and just totally freaking out." © 1999 The Birmingham News. Used with permission. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jeff Ewing [ewing@postbox.csi.cuny.edu] Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 6:48 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: But the newspapers said SO!!! At 12:09 PM 12/6/99 -0800, you wrote: >Shtraight from the Turkey's mouth: > >http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/06/nsa.goes.too.far.idg/ Or, it could be that NSA is a bloated dinosaur, unable to keep up with rapid change in IT: http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=194702 Jeff --trained as an historian, believes that the truth lies somewhere in between. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of REFLECTING SKIN [reflectingskin@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 5:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: DG Chat @ delta-green.com I've noticed that no one ever uses the online chatroom on the homepage. Would anyone be interested in setting up a time for a roundtable discussion of sorts? -The Reverend Doctor Leo -Reflecting Skin Productions Who Swears Dutifully that He Will write a webpage for The Fate as soon as finals are over. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 9:11 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Force I'll try and answer your questions (except the shotgun part which has already been covered). Here goes... << This might be an odd question, but: Are their any financial advantages, when you join the Delta Force?>> There are no additional financial bonuses for joining SFOD-D beyond Hazardous Duty Pay and specialty pay (Airborne, SCUBA, Explosive Ordinance Disposal, etc.). For those who are recruited from the SpecOps community there essentially would be no additional bonuses, as they are (probably) already receiving these. For those recruited from outside the community, these would be additions. Even so, these bonuses aren't much, a few hundred dollars a month more. <> The "Funny Platoon" is SFOD-D's in-house intelligence agency. It grew out of operational needs discovered from the disastrous raid on Iran. This initially led to the creation of the US Army's ISA but feuds between the two groups led to SFOD-D forming its own group. It is the only US Special Operations Force to employ women within its ranks. Generally, the "Funny Platoon" infiltrates an area before an operation to gather intelligence for SFOD-D operators, such as posing as flight crews for hostage rescue, tourists before an assault or whatever a given operation needs. << > and at least 22 years of age Is that because of legal reasons, the age when you are considered an adult in all the states of the U.S. of A.? [ I am only familiar with the drinking age of a couple of states ]>> SFOD-D is looking for older, more mature soldiers. From their experience, younger soldiers are still too wild and less settled in for the group. The missions and their requirements are such that they feel that this is a safer bet to avoid the "rashness" of younger soldiers. The average age for SFOD-D is actually 30-32 years with 10 years experience in the US Army, so the lower end minimum age is seldom an issue anyway. <<> -Psychological evaluation and Background Investigation Could you give some additional information on that one? What in your background or character will stop you from becoming a member of the DF?>> The Background Investigation is the standard government one for receiving security clearances. Financial problems, affiliation with subversive groups, criminal record and the like are the standard bars to entry. The Psychological Evaluations are conducted at various times during the selection process. The type of person SFOD-D is looking for is capable of "controlled" violence. In layman's terms, that means he won't hesitate in a combat situation such as SFOD-D encounters but will not crack and turn into a mass murderer or some such. In game terms, most SpecOps troopers should have a high POW to reflect this. They can degrade in sanity but have a greater willpower reserve to call upon and higher initial emotional stability (Note: this does not mean a greater morality, just stability). The Psychological Evaluations are batteries of questions, most of which have no right or wrong answer. Many are conducted after periods of sleep deprivation to weaken the ability to lie on them. Some of the questions are as follows: "While on a mission your team is spotted by two little girls, compromising the mission. Do you kill them and continue the mission, abort the mission or what?" (Note: one "clever" applicant for SFOD-D answered this question by stating that not only would he kill them but rape the bodies to make it appear that a serial killer was at work to throw off pursuit. SFOD-D not only did not accept him, he was recommended for further psychological counseling.) "Would you commit a homosexual act to acquire a vital piece of information for your country's national security?" "Would you follow an order to assassinate several known terrorists leaving a hotel in LA or question the legality of the order?" Applicants also take several standard psychological tests to provide a profile and are observed by Delta psychiatrists during training to observe their behavior. Reliability and stability are the main concerns. << > -Enlisted must have at least a 110 or higher GT Score and officers must have > either a BS or BA degree What's a GT Score? >> A GT score is a General Test score on the ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery). The ASVAB is sort of a SAT test for enlisted people entering the armed forces. It determines job eligibility, officer candidate eligibility and similar items. The GT is the over-all grade, with each service also having a scoring system based on various test applications to provide an over-all view of the person's intelligence and job suitability. Any GT scores over 100 are in the upper percentages of the military. Hope that helps. -Dave K From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jason R. Armstrong [gerwalkveritech@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 9:24 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Cthulu in Germany Though I boggle at how interested German occultists and/or the K-holes would actually use it in schemes to further their interests, I would feel out of sorts if I didn't mention the Cyaegha thing. This is probably a really obvious thing to say. Whatever-Cyaegha rocks regardless. In the story, "Darkness, My Name Is" (Eddy C. Bertin, in THE DISCIPLES OF CTHULHU), it is made clear that SPOILER SPOILER IA IA SPOILER SPOILER IA IA !! Cyaegha sends out increments of It's Self through the eons, to help try to free it at certain points in time. These "avatar-lets" can be otherwise normal human beings. They are unhealthily obsessed with Mythos and sorcerous stuff, but not "traceably" Mythos beings such as the Tcho-Tcho. They have no prior knowledge of what they are, until "coincidence" allows one of them to encounter the right knowledge about Freihausgarten and the Hill of the Waiting Dark. Then it all goes to shit (see the story for details). Mind you, this seems to be some form of natural, instinctive "stacking the deck" for Cyaegha.These people are unwittingly instrumental in helping get their Father/Mother free of Its hyperdimensional prison. It doesn't seem to do this consciously. Its mental overtures to people at large are largely hate-filled alien vibes, sending most who are in direct contact utterly crazy. Those who aren't SAN-wiped, end up irrationally worshipping the Thing, and later blocking out their urges unconsciously, or rationalizing it all by thinking that appeasement can keep It at bay. As with (Herber's theory?) the various Cthuhlu cults, this "worship" is missing the point. Cyaegha doesn't "communicate" any "wishes", nor intend to spare any obedient servant wannabe's. It's just naturally loud on the psychic level. It does have an EFFECT on lots of people, though, and doubtless COULD mentally control pawns if It chose to narrow Its' attention. Creepy, no? Now, whatever conclusions one might draw from some of the mystic interactions in the story, or whatever one's feelings may be about some of the hippie-bad-trip fireworks at the denoument, well I don't wanna hear it. You can ignore any details that may strike you as nods to Derleth, or as being too Taoist, or whatever. It's all scenery, no matter how cosmic. My point...yes, I have one, is that Cyaegha could be brought in as a crisis in and of itself. Maybe one of the K-holes, so eager for further power, starts feeling...urges contradictory to his primary mission. A lower-level guy maybe, not accepted or (yet) recognized as one of Nyarly's Million Favored- Truppen. He's in, but not TOO in. And people in the K don't realize that things are going wrong right away; funds being diverted, a gang of Nazi-friendly douchebags being given confusing "extra" assignments by the bad guy... ...when they DO realize, suddenly it's a Karotechia game of Snipe the Traitor before He Fucks Up the Order of Things. What if the PC's are already after this guy? What if they end up basically allying with said K-holes, once things get figured out? Both sides might have very good reasons for wanting not to see the Fatherland get chewed up indiscriminately. Not to mention Cyaegha's general social habits seem to spell "It's Giuliani Time" for the Earth at large. What will some of the K feel about things if they find that, perhaps, Der Feuhrer, when contacted for advice, doesn't seem to mind the possibilities of the Big C. rampage too much? "No big deal. Let's have a war. 'Cause we need the space," He says. "Clear off the continent for the true Men, eh?" How many, as cause- fanatic as they are, still hold on to ideas of Blood and Soil? What if the Race and Honor (not to mention being an Evil Fuck) parts of the scheme just don't seem worth it, with Beloved Deutschland a crater? The ones who become ambivalent probably would have to be, again, underlings of some sort (the non-zombie kind) who find out about this all via grape-vinery or spying on their superiors. Those in direct contact with Mr. Goosestep are too far gone to care about location or birth origin, in light of the Cosmic Skinhead Jackstomp they foresee. At any rate. Cyaegha. DG allied w/ the K-holes by accident. Possible sectarian war in the K as a result of above. Germany reduced to a fucking shambles, Nyarly laughing his ass off at the circus of humanity. Too dumb? Too over-the-top? William Shatner as Cyaegha? Adam West as Reinhard Galt? Whaddya say? Anyhow, if you haven't, read the story. It's fucking worth it. "If AIDS don't get ya, then the warheads will, World peace can't be done- It just can't exist-" -Cro-Mags xJAYx ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:30 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: new campaigns In a message dated 12/7/99 2:15:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, andrew.kenrick7@virgin.net writes: << just a question for all of you running DG campaigns out there. what sort of pace is yours going at? i mean, at what stage did you spring MJ12 and the karotechia (or whoever) on your players? i started my campaign at the weekend and used MJ12 on them right from the start (not that they knew it!) but now i want to get away from them for a while and introduce a few other foes (and maybe friends). is session 2 too soon to run an encounter with the karotechia? >> ***Some Minor Spoilers Below*** Well, when we started, I ran Puppet Shows and Shadow Plays first. We had the full MJ-12 option going to set the stage right away. The way we ran Puppet Shows was as both a stage setting of the bigger picture and as an introduction to some of the big picture. I went easy on them in that one so they could feel out the differences in tone and focus from a traditional CoC scenario and a DG one. After Puppet Shows, the group received a mysterious summons to NYC immediately after receiving their E-mail briefings from Alphonse for their next mission. They got to go to Club Apocalypse for a meeting with Alzis and some of the Fate, setting them up as shadowy patrons. They offered to deal with X-Cell in exchange for a future favor. They gave some additional information on the world of DG to further push the PCs along, with an offer of something more after the adventure. Alzis also slipped to of the PCs a magical mickey to protect his investment (Actually a bit of silent GM help to avoid the possibility of the entire cell being wiped out by protomatter during the next adventure. The drink made the two immune to the effects and they were determined by a Luck roll by all involved) Alphonse then sent them off for Convergence/The New Age and further MJ fun (Including placing SaucerWatch's Lawrence Hong there as an introduction to that group and as a MJ plant). Afterwards, the PCs returned to Alzis and he gave them a copy of Fairfield's last e-mail and some cryptic statements about their other patrons, DG (This put a bit of paranoia into them about who to trust plus I personally run DG a little more darker and sinister than others might). After all of that, they hit into the fringes of the Karotechia in a series of adventures. This allowed the major players of the world (at that time anyway) to be partially pushed out in the open and questions to start forming. After that, the campaign formed into a pattern I modeled after the X-Files, with a constant but underlying series of themes dealing with MJ, The Fate and the Karotechia but with many unrelated scenarios to break up the patterns and scenarios that even seem to invalidate some of what was learned already. We have almost reached the stage where all of that setup is going to come to fruition with some very big shakeups and events that will change our campaign world...but that's another story... Hope that helped a bit... -Dave K From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Force In a message dated 12/8/99 2:44:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, andrew.kenrick7@virgin.net writes: << now i have a delta force member, a navy seal and an fbi agent. hmm, 2 special forces guys, is that asking for trouble or what? hopefully i'll end up with another couple of people next time, not special forces though!>> Having the SpecOps community represented like this doesn't have to be bad. Just make sure your player's realize this isn't an action movie and enforce realism on them. It really will keep things from getting out of hand. <> That depends on how accurate you want to be. The easiest way to handle it is if you want them to be similar is make the SEAL from Team 6, which is the US Navy's equivalent to Delta. Also, if you aren't worried about the details too much, go ahead and use them the same. If you are interested in the details, however, their missions are somewhat different. SEALs prepare for Unconventional Warfare and Counterinsurgency in a manner similar to the Special Forces, but with less emphasis on the long-term commitment (training guerrillas/gov't troops and related duties) and concentrate more on the Direct Action side (raids, ambushes, intelligence gathering/reconnaissance and so on). They tend to operate in squads and have a definite maritime/riverine aspect to much of their work. Many of the missions they undertake are essentially the same as other Special Operations Forces (Strategic reconnaissance for example), while others are pretty much all their own (underwater demolition or underwater mine clearing are two examplesacan). With a little research, the differences in the organizations can be easily learned and add a bit of depth and specialization to the characters and your campaign. -Dave K