From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of DocHopt@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 6:28 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta X Sigh... still way behind in my e-mail. In that post about Stephen King's short story "The Mist", "Night Shirt" was supposed to be "Night Shift". Also in "Night Shift": "Gramma" --- seems King wrote a bunch of stuff that's basically tributes to HPL (who was incidentally his favorite author) including this one; eight-year-old kid is babysitting senile sick old bag-of-bones Grandma for a night while the mom is away. Gramma is on her last legs, asleep, flashback or two from the kid's POV to a couple of years ago when he first discovered he could listen in on phone conversations really well because his older brother showed him how to pick up a phone without the -click.- He learns that Gramma was unable to have kids way back when, but got into some 'books'... very, very bad books. She gets kicked out of her church, and starts having bad spells-- back to today, where the kid is stumbled out of his daydream as Gramma is having another fit, saying among other things, "(Strange word) Hastur (strange word or two) Yog-Sothoth...!" It clicks in the kid's head, that Gramma was really having bad /spells./ At which point Gramma makes a couple of gurgles and kicks the bucket. Boy walks in, Gramma's corpse tries to snatch him. "Don't be 'fraid, kiddo... Gramma wants a hug.." --Hopt From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Appelion@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:04 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Depleted Uranium In a message dated 3/27/00 1:46:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com writes: << allied armour - the chief user of DU ordnance . . >> What about the A-10 (Warthog)? I didn't know armor used the stuff at all, but the A-10 sprays it like a mofo. And the ranges probably have the stuff blown around enough to keep it from killin' ya. Xavier From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Appelion@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:18 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Thermobaric weapons In a message dated 3/28/00 12:22:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, j.turner@irishnews.com writes: << He carries one of those down his pants as a hold-out, >> Next to the Bubble Gun. Xavier I carry an entire Minuteman XIV in MY pocket... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Appelion@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:24 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: sing baby sing like a bird In a message dated 3/28/00 6:06:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, yanasikt@superonline.com writes: << What kind of drugs and chemicals are used in -illegal- interrogations>> Sodium Pentothal. Or something from OUTLOOK. <> Highly variable. It works OK, most of the time, but it's hard to tell if it works on this subject, this time, or not. It ain't a magic potion, but it'll help. Xavier From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:28 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Thermobaric weapons In a message dated 3/29/00 9:21:33 PM Central Standard Time, Appelion@aol.com writes: << I carry an entire Minuteman XIV in MY pocket... >> I might like the German HAFLA disposable themite grenade launcher as a trench cleaner - but an ATGM with a minimum range of 75meters is a strange choice for cleaning out trenches -most grenade launchers have some kind of minimum range so you can't catch your self in your own detonation. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:30 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Thermobaric weapons In a message dated 00-03-29 22:21:33 EST, you write: << << He carries one of those down his pants as a hold-out, >> Next to the Bubble Gun. Xavier I carry an entire Minuteman XIV in MY pocket... >> My mommy taught me not to think of it as a weapon. Mark McFadden Is not afraid to hug. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Marco S.Subias [MSubias@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:03 AM To: Delta Green Subject: DG: a question for the informed. You don't have to join up to take the ASVAB, as I recall. You can go into the recruiter and say "I think I'd like to join up if I can get guaranteed training..." in fixing electronic communication equipment, in nuke school, or some other demanding specialty, or just say "I'd like to see what I'd qualify for, becuase I'd never sign up without a guaranteed job (and don't _ever_ sign up without one either!) . As I remember they pretty much have to test you before they can offer you a contract for guaranteed training in a specific specialty. When I took it in '79 there were four sections. One measured mechanical aptitude, one aptitude in electronics, and other in administrative potential ("the opposite of "up" is..., and "this moderately big word means..." ), and the last was a general aptitude section that asked sort of common sensical questions like "if there is a room with four windows facing in all four compass directions, which two would you open to get the best cross breeze if the wind was blowing from the north?" All tests were multiple choice. If you enlisted without a guaranteed job they'd put you in whatever job they needed warm bodies in that you qualified for, subject to such things as ability to pass security clearances, learn languages, etc, based on the demands of specific career fields. Marco From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:43 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Thermobaric weapons At 10:18 PM 3/29/00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/28/00 12:22:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, >j.turner@irishnews.com writes: > ><< He carries one of those down his pants as a hold-out, >> >Next to the Bubble Gun. > > Xavier > > I carry an entire Minuteman XIV in MY pocket... > > I leave that to the MiB himself to elaborate upon... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:01 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such When I was supporting R&D types in defense firms I'd sometimes catch this gleam in some engineers eye that told me they needed to tell somebody new about some hack they had pulled or joke paper they had written. Nerds with fun histories but shy in front of crowds; whacky lights hiding under their Stay-Prest bushel. Take a coffee break while troubleshooting around one of these guys and all you needed to do was prime the pump with some anecdote and they'd be off on some unclassified Tale From The White Hart that will buy you lunch later. One guy had written an apparently full-on serious recommendation that for the task of ground support the best bet was a combat ultralight. I'd supply a "But..." and he'd list the many benefits of this new paradigm. He was good too, he had the apparently random sips of coffee from the vendor's mug and adjusting glasses down like Woody Allen in his standup years. Dramatic pauses and emphasis disguised as tics. Ultralights are cheap, really really cheap. So cheap that the Military Industrial Complex polka won't be able to make them plausibly expensive enough to be a problem. Flying them does not require a college degree or getting that horndog from Oklahoma to help you with your fluid dynamics homework so you can get liberty and cruise for bodacious tatas because you have NOWHERE ELSE TO GO! Flying them does not require athleticism above and beyond that expected of a grunt. Also, freaking out at low pressure is not a factor so you won't have to hang yourself in the motel bathroom. Taking off and landing does not require a lot of real estate, and they should fold for storage and shipping. These factors allow you to think outside the box. Instead of a force of expensive high maintenance aircraft with costly weapons requiring extra training for the skilled tech crews supporting the highly trained officer pilot, you have lots and lots and lots and lots (and LOTS) of cheap, dependable, easily maintained, light, modular, inherently stealthy, largely non-metallic, low heat, easy to fly, fuel efficient, easy to manufacture with well-tested well-known tech, easy to maintain by the mechanic\pilot camo'd ultralights coming at you like ghost buffalo herds in the sky. Think of the flying monkeys to the tune of Die Walkerie. What can the enemy do? Scramble the fighters? What will they do when screaming past the slow moving glacial mass of Kevlar? Fire a Sidewinder and hope for the best? Do the math. We could finally win a war of attrition and get change back. And SAMs? One missile, one plane. Which one costs more now? And don't forget the stealth factor here, too. He took a sip and cleared his throat, then assured me that he wasn't being callous about the loss of human life. Consider this: one missile = one Bradley = one squad. But, one missile = one ultralight = who knows? Did the missile actually explode or was the plane taken out by a crippled wing allowing the pilot to bail out or better yet deploy the plane's chute and take the whole shebang down soft? AA or infantry fire? Too low for one to use it's strengths and the other firing uphill at moving targets dropping grenades. In wave after wave of planes not sticking around to fight, like a phalanx, depending on the team mate to do his part. In an ultralight a man that is hit is not necessarily immobilised, and can possibly medivac himself. But best of all is the cheap maintenance. Hell, if you made most of the parts available, chromed, at the PX - the pilots may pay for custom parts out of their own pocket. Vanity call signs? Dibs on Maverick! I could make a bundle selling them plans to disengage the governor. Shit, we give them factory models and then sell custom parts through Stars & Stripes. This whole Army thing could be a profit center. No wait, the Air Farce gets the ground support duty don't they? I'll bet the Army would love to tell them to fuck off. Air Cav means mobile young Captain. Mobile Infantry, oo rah. ObDG: STOL capabilities, inherent stealth. In Vietnam they used powered gliders for night recon. They had this muffler that ran the length of the fuselage and an 8 bladed (or more) prop IIRC. We probably don't have enough Friendlies for a decent human wave, but you can cross impassable terrain so long as there is a small levelish clearish place to land on the other side. You could hide one in a Green Box and haul it in a panel van. And you could drop *fuel air* grenades. Ground hugging nocturnal flight with goggles doesn't require so much experience and skill at low speeds. And GPS makes everyone a navigator. Find open land to train and don't worry about real licences. You can't dogfight but you could hang a .50 cal from a sling and go Puff the Magic Dragon on some DO ass. Just the thing for a surreal nightime diversion to enable your team's approach on foot. And there are two-seater versions. In Spooker the bad guy has an ultralight called a Chamois. It has two props, a pusher and a forward prop on a gimbal allowing the prop to aim up for very STOL take offs and low slow flight. I ran into an old buddy who flies an ultralight and I got thinking of low tech resources for those on a budget. Mark McFadden Put out his hand and touched a tree. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Frank Frey (SOK) [ffreyiii@luna.cas.usf.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 9:07 AM To: Andy Robertson Cc: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Tynes' stuff Gentlemen, Although I respect the thoughtfulness with which you've approached this topic, I must disagree with you. I couldn't think of a better forum on which to post criticisms. As a freelance writer myself, my belief canned best be summed up with Harry Truman's famous quote "if you can't stand the heat then get the hell out of the kitchen." In Academia, whenever a scholary work is published, it undergoes what is called "Peer Group Review". Other scholars in the field comment and criicize the work. It can be rather painful at times but it is a necessary part of the creative process. There's no reason that I can see why we should be any different. After all, are we not the ones who buy Pagan Publishing's works? Are we not the ones who interpret a great deal of it through our role-playing efforts? Therefore, I believe that we have the right and in some instances the obligation to comment and criticize "Tynes' Stuff" and others as well. Again, let me stress that the very fact that you show concern over these issues demonstrates a degree of civility that is sadly lacking in a lot of other people. I salute you for that. Frank Frey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad!" Salvador Dali ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Shane Ivey [sivey@zealot.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:23 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: Re: Tynes' stuff I'll chime in briefly with Daniel, Dave, the Saint, et al: Personally, I'm always glad to see an honest critique of something I've done, whether or not it's in a public forum, and whether or not it's good news. As for the ego thing, hell, just having people care enough to talk about what you did is an ego boost. I know some writers who get really bent out of shape at a negative review, but I don't see the point of that. Courtesy is always good--if you're going to be rude, be funny about it, otherwise play nice--but the important thing is to get the feedback. If you think something I wrote sucked eggs, I want to know about it! Better yet, I want to hear a lot of opinions on it so I can get a broad sense of what might have worked, what didn't, or whether I'm just writing to the wrong audience. Or maybe so I can just say you're an idiot for not liking it. ;) Regardless, that goes for freebie fiction at DG.com, scenarios in PYRAMID, Zealot reviews, web design, or whatever. If you have an opinion, express it. As for Tynes and Detwiller, on the other hand, I dunno. They own assault rifles. Shane Ivey Editor & Webmaster Zealot.com: Sci-Fi & Fantasy Fun (now hiring: Zealot.com/jobs/) GameJudge.com: The Game Review Superportal Delta-Green.com: Lovecraftian Horror and Modern Conspiracy Today at Zealot.com: Zealot Reviews LEPRECHAUN IN THE HOOD. No, really. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of john ogden [goidel@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 11:35 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Steam-powered Conspiracy List- As an avid living historian of both the American Revolution and Tudor/Stuart England, I would like to make a few points regarding weapons (particularly firearms) in the era before the percusion cap. 1) By 1570 the longbow had pretty well died out as a military weapon, even in England. This was much lamented by numerous commentators who were dreaming of the military campaigns against France during the Hundred Years' War. The reason for this was that an arrow just didn't have the ability to punch thru the heavy plate armor being worn by cavalry and pikemen at this period, whereas a musket could. 2) In the 1700s, no soldier was to be stationed with his regiment until he could consistently fire at least three shots per minute and hit a man-sized silhouette 50 yards away each time. My regiment practices to this same standard and our worst time is 1 min 15 seconds for three shots. Given that we don't do this day in and day out, just on weekends in the summer, imagine what a person living with this as his only form of defense could do. As for the matchlock musket, it is still possible to get off three rounds in about the same time frame, although I don't have as much practice with this weapon. 3) To conclude, while the modern "spray and pray" school of marksmanship is not an option in the era under discussion, our heroes of by-gone days are not as out-gunned as you might imagine. John Ogden >From: LizardRoi@aol.com >Reply-To: dgrpg@delta-green.com >To: dgrpg@delta-green.com >Subject: Re: DG: Steam-powered Conspiracy >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:40:35 EST > >In a message dated 00-03-29 18:12:58 EST, you write: > ><< with the difficulties in keeping a ready, loaded pistol on one's person, >in the absence of percussion caps -- would probably find blades better for >a >lot of close-in fighting...) >> > > Not to mention falling into the "girly-men too xxxx and flabby to study >martial arts" trap. Which I won't mention. > >Mark McFadden > "Oh yeah, well try that chop socky against a .357" > "Do you have one on you? No? Oh my, this may sting. Turn your head, this >is >a new shirt." > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:17 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Alternity / Dark Matter / Wizards of the Coast News In a message dated 3/28/00 3:12:53 PM Central Standard Time, dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu writes: << And until I start seeing signs that it will actually accomplish something else, I intend to treat it with considerable skepticism. >> It's nice to see that the liberalism and non-profit minded attitude of D&D did not change with the new management. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:18 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Jean-loup stand up In a message dated 3/28/00 3:10:33 PM Central Standard Time, mermoud@easynet.fr writes: << BTW : Noone use "Merkin" and noone would use it (unless I can start a trend ;-) >> Considering that a "merkin" is a hair piece for the crotch, I doubt that it will catch on. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 2:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: sing baby sing like a bird ----- Original Message ----- From: sing baby sing like a bird > yanasikt@superonline.com writes: > > << What kind of drugs and chemicals are used in -illegal- interrogations>> > Sodium Pentothal. Or something from OUTLOOK. > Let's not forget Sombunal . . . :-) The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:18 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: sing baby sing like a bird What was the drug the KGB used to inject in the cheek during interrogations? I remember the scar left behind as a detail in "Gorky Park" but I can't remember the drug mentioned. At the end of "White Nights" I noticed that Gregory Hines' makeup included a purple blemish on his cheek close to his eye for verisimilitude. In addition to controlled addiction for interrogation motive, I got thinking about some of the really unpleasant but non-damaging sensations that can be triggered with drugs. Keep a subject hydrated and nourished intravenously, but keep them convulsed with nausea. Let them know that relief is a just a kiss away, it's just a kiss away. No amount of Zen is going to make the fight-or-flight panic go away when the chemicals are supplied from outside the subject's body. Imagine a full-on emergency adrenaline surge with the time distortion and electric chills and hyped-up responses, then imagine being kept hovering there for hours. Think of Hunter S. Thompson's description of his adrenochrome experience in "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" combined with being strapped down immobile (industrial strength) while getting the Ludovico treatment with Surfer Bird playing over and over and over. Mark McFadden "Is it safe?" From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:21 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Steam-powered Conspiracy back to reality w/- a sensible OT for the list members w/- interest in - iberian and autherian cuthulhu campaigns . http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/ the iberian bits are the poorest . but the aurtherian stuff was mega help in a recent pendragon i was involved in . yours- andy . From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:31 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Depleted Uranium Appelion@aol.com wrote > What about the A-10 (Warthog)? I didn't know armor used the stuff at all, > but the A-10 sprays it like a mofo. And the ranges probably have the stuff > blown around enough to keep it from killin' ya. the A10 totaly slipped my mind - all those 30mm shells would get everywhere . but even so , total tonage / area cant be that high can it . but there again - i cat find any total DU usesge figures for the war - or how much is in each round . lastly about the ranges - the western desert is windy too , and BIGGER ! yours - andy From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Graeme Price [graemep@immagene.mcg.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:04 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: sing baby sing like a bird McFadden wrote: > No amount of Zen is going to make the fight-or-flight panic go away when the >chemicals are supplied from outside the subject's body. Imagine a full-on >emergency adrenaline surge with the time distortion and electric chills and >hyped-up responses, then imagine being kept hovering there for hours. Think >of Hunter S. Thompson's description of his adrenochrome experience in "Fear >and Loathing in Las Vegas" combined with being strapped down immobile >(industrial strength) while getting the Ludovico treatment with Surfer Bird >playing over and over and over. Also good sources for inspiration are the interrogation scene in Day of the Jackal (not the pathetic re-make with that lama-loving hamster-stuffing freak as a cute cuddy IRA man!) - for the uninitiated, psychotropic drugs plus electrodes on the testicles (ouch) - and (better still) the TV movie "A Red File for Callan". The latter is particularly interesting as it was a spin off of the classic Brit gritty spy series "Callan" which featured Edward Woodward in his pre-Equalizer days, as a reluctant secret agent/assassin for HMG. Highly recommended for atmosphere and for an alternative example of how to treat friendlies (in this case, Callan's noxious glaswegian taxi-driver sidekick named "Lonely"... who got beaten up by Callan in nearly every episode, usually just to make a point). Anyway, said TV movie featured a chemically aided interrogation of an arms dealer's bodyguard... who gets reduced to an incontinent babbling wreck by the overuse of nasty drugs (and in a devious twist is shown to his former boss as an example of what will happen to him if he doesn't play along). Not nice. Not nice at all. The truth I suspect lies somewhere in between "drugs are perfectly safe in interrogation" to "drugs will reduce you _permanently_ to a drooling moron". I'm uncertain as to how much info is available on the subject, but a few points to consider are: The more drugs you use, the more confused the answers you will get and the more likely the victim will suffer permanent damage (note that real life is not like Mission Impossible - if you get drugged, you tend to know about it afterwards... at the least you'll have a hangover... which means you can use drugs to pull a fast one on someone. At least, not easily - OUTLOOK and MK-ULTRA chemicals may be more reliable in this). This limits the usefulness of drugs for interrogation. Perhaps one advantage is that drugs don't leave _physical_ bruises, which means that such coercion is harder to prove in a court of law (provided the victim has been held long enough for the drugs to clear a toxicology screen - no lawyer would let this happen if he suspected that his client had been given mind bending drugs, unless there was no way he could avoid it). As to the types of drugs used, this is an open question. Scopalamine has been mentioned, but it is old fashioned and has a few side effects. The trick (as mentioned above) is to give enough drug to get the subject to talk, but not to impair his thinking and make him incoherent or forgetful. I suspect that the drug of choice for most purposes would be alcohol, perhaps with a dash of something more powerful (the "date rape drug" whose name escapes me for example) - hard to prove, easy to use, relatively safe and probably as effective as you would get without having to resort to specialist medical personnel. Later Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu Something is coming. Something wonderful.... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:45 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Shotgun minishells and minislugs On 29 March, 2000 AD, Jeff Nielsen jnielsen@forbin.com, who "likes to shoot first, ask questions, and shoot some more", said: >http://www.aguilaammo.com/minishells.htm > >Those agents who prefer using shotguns for disposing of nasty things (the >ones >that can be hurt by firearms at least) should check out this link, I know >that >I *like* the idea of getting 6 more shots out of my Mossburg 500. Unfortunately, it probably wouldn't help -- according to the info on the webpage, these minishells won't properly cycle in a semiautomatic shotgun, and would have feed problems in a pump! (The company is apparently working on a special pump shotgun that will use these rounds, but I have my doubts about the compatability of normal rounds in such a weapon -- with it, you'd be stuck using the minishells, which might be difficult to keep in supply, and probably don't include specialized rounds...) There are companies which make special shotgun rounds ranging from the useful ("door-buster", tear-gas, armor-piercing, flechettes, etc.) to the weird ("screamer", "tack" rounds, etc.) to the downright dangerous (incindeary). I get a couple of their catalogs, and I'll hunt up the URLs, if anybody's interested. Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com P.S.: BTW, what's necessary to get into the DG Gun Fondlers these days? The Purple Kat has been asking me; she apparently wants to be DGGF#24...:) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:34 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such/cheap warriors/Wisperer ----- Original Message ----- From: > One guy had written an apparently full-on serious recommendation that for > the task of ground support the best bet was a combat ultralight. I ran into an old buddy who flies an ultralight and I got thinking of low > tech resources for those on a budget. Or mad hordes of Mythos fanatics. I guess our culture forbids us from exploiting this to the full because people are too "valuable" to us, but if you consider the mass armies of the past and the way their commanders spent their men like water it's far from improbable that some future conqueror could use similar tactics effectively (Nug-Soth? Tsan-Chan?). The best weapon is still the one produced by unskilled labour. This makes my mind jump off to "The Wisperer In Darkness". I have sometimes wondered about the combat behaviour of the Mi-Go in that story. You remember. Akeley kills a number of them with gunfire, but night after night they just hover around without doing anything effective and get shot at and chawed up by dogs. And when they finally pluck him the deaths are shrugged off with "their emotions are organised in a very different way than ours". Two obvious possibilities: 1) The Mi-Go have multiple biological castes, maybe like ants or bees, maybe in some other way. Some of these castes are non-reproductive and so are essentially "weapons" or "tools", like worker or warrior ants. Though fully conscious and intelligent, they have no instinct for self preservation and no fear of death. - a good starter for their "biological" technology? - HPL did say there were _many variants_ 2) The Mi-Go were a little too concerned with what was happening down south. About the same time as Wilmarth entered that farmhouse, IIRC, the Dunwich Horror was breaking loose. The Mi-Go highups could not commit many resources to Akeley and basically didn't want any bother, so their canteen staff SNAFU'd on Akeley while their elite were occupied elsewhere. - They were afraid the EndTimes were coming prematurely. - And of course they had to let those idiots chanting on the hilltop think _they_ were the ones sealing the barriers . . . The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of box_nine@ix.netcom.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:53 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Interrogations, Legal and Otherwise Note that sodium pentothal relaxes the subject - it does not render the subject 'truthful' per se. Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable. Here's a link to the October 1998 LAW ENFORCEMENT BULLETIN, with the FBI's take on how to conduct successful interrogations: http://www.fbi.gov/library/leb/1998/oct98leb.pdf And here's the CIA's KUBARK manual - note the point that not everyone responds to torture, drugs, etc. in the same manner. http://www.parascope.com/articles/0397/kubark06.htm Here's an interesting article, suggesting that the common techniques of reading body language are better replaced by analyzing statements,with examples: http://lsiscan.com/article5.html Steven From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:00 AM Subject: DG: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such wow - totaly cool greenbox idea , just the cure for running round hill and dale looking for cult sites , cthonian activity - crashed / landed alien things , in short any thing the generally takes time and unatural effort from a gound search , has just gone air recon onn next to no budget , im well impressed . only 2 gripes - > AA or infantry fire? Too low for one to use it's strengths and the other > firing uphill at moving targets dropping grenades. there seems to be alot of aa systems about the 20mm mark , that look too small and light enough to e dammed dangerous - the military is waking upto the helicopter threat , and pulling out stops to develope weaons fast enough to engage pop up targets . and all these systems have thermal sights , so if some one is awake , they could nail you. and 20mm canon fire will hurt . infantry would have more problems - but a good machinegunner with a GMPG braced over a wall or something would scare the shit out of me in a microlight . > You can't dogfight but you could hang a .50 cal from a sling and go Puff the > Magic Dragon on some DO ass. Just the thing for a surreal nightime diversion > to enable your team's approach on foot. dont think i`d want the kick of a 50 cal. hanging on a craft that size . the 37 / 40mm rotary magazine grenade launches , the briitish and south africans use would give a decent fire suport - for reall kick ass - there are some multi projectile spigot lauchers that have upto 12 munitions - boresight them in a box on your nose cone - and bang one flick of the switch - boom ! that bit out of the way - all in all a good idea , cheers . yours - andy . From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Graeme Price [graemep@immagene.mcg.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:59 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such >wow - totaly cool greenbox idea , just the cure for running round hill and >dale looking for cult sites , cthonian activity - crashed / landed alien >things , in short any thing the generally takes time and unatural effort >from a gound search , has just gone air recon onn next to no budget , im >well impressed . One scenario no one has considered: Microlight vs. Byakhee/Nightguant/Shantak etc. Still seem like a good idea? Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu Something is coming. Something wonderful... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of EdDrWho@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:29 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such/cheap warriors/Wisperer >>>- HPL did say there were _many variants_ Where does he say this? I've never been able to find that... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 6:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such/cheap warriors/Wisperer ----- Original Message ----- From: > >>>- HPL did say there were _many variants_ > > Where does he say this? I've never been able to find that... > In the fake letter from Akeley - p 240 in my copy of "The Dunwich Horror" "The genus is unique in its ability to traverse the heatless and airless interstellar void in full corporial form, and some of its _variants_ cannot do this without mechanical aid . . . And a bit later on it goes on about how the "Himalayan" mi-go had to be bought to earth by mechanical means . Yes, "variants" could mean other species rather than other sub-castes of this species, but at any rate there is not just one sort of Mi-go on earth. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Joseph Camp [alphonse@delta-green.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 7:23 PM To: dgrpg Subject: Re: DG: Re: Tynes' stuff >Although I respect the thoughtfulness with which you've approached this >topic, I must disagree with you. I couldn't think of a better forum on >which to post criticisms. As a freelance writer myself, my belief canned >best be summed up with Harry Truman's famous quote "if you can't stand the >heat then get the hell out of the kitchen." Mr. Tynes has been out of town for a few days this week, but assures me he has no reservations whatsoever about his work being discussed and dissected in this or any other forum. As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity. (The converse, of course, being far worse--as in Ayn Rand's THE FOUNTAINHEAD when an insecure colleague begs of Howard Roark, "What do you think of me?" and Roark replies, "I don't.") be seeing you, Alphonse From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Don Juneau [djuneau@io.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 7:45 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 LizardRoi@aol.com wrote: > What can the enemy do? Scramble the fighters? What will they do when > screaming past the slow moving glacial mass of Kevlar? Fire a Sidewinder and > hope for the best? Do the math. We could finally win a war of attrition and > get change back. Heheheh. Two words - "sonic boom". Another few words: "Frogfoot"/"Warthog". "Helicopter gunship." "Artillery airburst." > AA or infantry fire? Too low for one to use it's strengths and the other > firing uphill at moving targets dropping grenades. In wave after wave of > planes not sticking around to fight, like a phalanx, depending on the team > mate to do his part. In an ultralight a man that is hit is not necessarily > immobilised, and can possibly medivac himself. Hmmm? Your high-rate-of-fire multi-barrel/gun AA will work beautifully on the Airborne Horde; ZSU-23 quadmount, or 20mm Vulcan... WWII-surplus .50 Browning M2HBs have the slow RoF, but decent accuracy and a heavy-hitting slug. (Forget the designation, but the aircraft version of the M2 had ahigher RoF.) Tactical note: it's a lot easier for someone sitting a a nice steady rock to hit a moving target than for a moving shooter to hit said nice steady rock... It's a cute idea (I'd seen discussion along the likes in a SOLDIER OF FORTUNE spin-off mag in '86 or so), but it breaks on too many levels. They're cheap, and somewhat simple (in good conditions) to fly, which is good... 'cause all those numbnuts in the unit, the ones who can barely handle a '74 Nova, will sure as hell be hot for it. (Expect "I feel the need for speed" to be repeated ad nauseum.) Get a nice windstorm (preferably with snow mixed in, as I'm evil and used to live in Montana) and see the crashes. Simple and easily repairable is good - 'cause damn near any hit other than a fabric surface (and you can only take so many of those before you lose control surfaces or lifting ability) is going to do non-trivial damage. And a significant number of those are going to be on the pilot... even misses (and tracers, and popping sounds accompanied by holes appearing in the wings) are likely to induce some nervousness. SAMs are pretty useless as a countermeasure for this. But, as pointed out aleady, there's all sorts of other (inexpensive) goodies to use. (Yeah, you have to shoot uphill; but they don't have the speed or agility to make a difficult targeting solution, even to Joe Grunt.) Guess I've picked apart the "New Military Advance" aspects of it enough... on to the more useful (DG/cult) side of the equation. Obviously, swarming the 1st Infantry Division with these things is a Bad Idea. But, they're beautiful for counterinsurgency-type roles, low-level conflicts, terrorism and the like. A brightly-painted, obviously civilian and harmless toy can lurk around and get all kinds of nice surveillance done. And, if you're ballsy enough, you *can* make a (single) strike and possibly escape. (I'm thinking .50 Browning sniper rifle in the main fuselage, in a fairing perhaps; video to the pilot or passenger.) Nighttime is where it shines, however. The engine is easily muffled, and prop noise can be lessened, to the point that at operational altitude (more than 100 feet above ground level, usually) it will either be unnoticed or unlocatable. Throw a gyrostabilised long-lens with low-light capabilities on the beast (run it under one wing, pointing out) and you can circle the target and gather much data. Illuminate targets for your (stolen?) laser-guided munitions. Do the Forward Observer thing for your grenadiers/mortars, or just direct the raiders to where they're needed. Once the shit has hit the fan, and the defenders have come out to play, kill the engine and glide in to the (now undefended) Seekrit HQ rooftop. Snipe defenders from behind while the demo guy unloads the other 250+ pounds of BoomStuff for the main event. Keep a bird airborne and at medium altitude, in case of helicopter response - chopper will be looking for ground fire, not an Armbrust into the main rotor from above... For non-combat use, it's cheap enough (albeit slow and low-capacity) to use for remote or inaccessable resupply. Dean Ing describes (in SINGLE COMBAT) how you can lower/raise cargo from a fixed ground-point by way of a winch and tight bank around said point. (Think control-line model aircraft; apparently, it was used by jungle missionary resupply planes.) Even without that manouever, 500 pounds of cargo can be delivered without landing by way of fixed rate-of-descent belaying gear and some nice, strong line - auto-rappel your stuff down, and stall when they get to the bottom; quick-disconnect on the lines will either drop just the crago, or the lines and all, and you can go your merry way. (If done right, it might not even be suspected.) Parachutes cost money - why not just waterproof the containers and add floats, then dump into the nearby blue feature? (Remember also that these birds can be made amphibians by adding floats; lowers the top speed and cargo capacity, but can be useful.) Need to go somewhere in a hurry? Buy a sportscar... but, if you figure the investigators might be awaiting you in an armoured Suburban at the end of the driveway, buzzing off the rooftop in an ultralight might do the trick. (I are not an aeronautical engineer, but suitibly-tested lower-thrust RATO [Rocket Assisted Take Off] units might get you moving fast enough to avoid large-caliber slugs...) Even better, send the puppy off with Your Expendable Henchman (or via remote control, using Your Inflatable Love Doll) and give those pesky kids something to chase... stroll out at your leisure, as like as not no one will want to miss the chase. Ah well. This should be enough ideas to make evil minds gleam... there's more fun with ultralights to be had, for sure, but I'm off to the rest of the mail... > ObDG: STOL capabilities, inherent stealth. In Vietnam they used powered > gliders for night recon. They had this muffler that ran the length of the > fuselage and an 8 bladed (or more) prop IIRC. We probably don't have enough > Friendlies for a decent human wave, but you can cross impassable terrain so > long as there is a small levelish clearish place to land on the other side. > You could hide one in a Green Box and haul it in a panel van. And you could > drop *fuel air* grenades. > Ground hugging nocturnal flight with goggles doesn't require so much > experience and skill at low speeds. And GPS makes everyone a navigator. > Find open land to train and don't worry about real licences. > You can't dogfight but you could hang a .50 cal from a sling and go Puff the > Magic Dragon on some DO ass. Just the thing for a surreal nightime diversion > to enable your team's approach on foot. And there are two-seater versions. > In Spooker the bad guy has an ultralight called a Chamois. It has two props, > a pusher and a forward prop on a gimbal allowing the prop to aim up for very > STOL take offs and low slow flight. > I ran into an old buddy who flies an ultralight and I got thinking of low > tech resources for those on a budget. > > Mark McFadden > Put out his hand > and touched > a tree. > From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 8:30 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Shotgun minishells and minislugs In a message dated 00-03-30 16:48:44 EST, you write: << P.S.: BTW, what's necessary to get into the DG Gun Fondlers these days? The Purple Kat has been asking me; she apparently wants to be DGGF#24...:) >> The one mandatory I remember was a new stanza for the DGGF Anthem. Mark "Make My Day" McFadden #23 From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of EdDrWho@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 8:34 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such In a message dated 3/30/00 7:48:08 PM Central Standard Time, djuneau@io.com writes: > Simple and easily repairable is good - 'cause damn near any hit other than > a fabric surface (and you can only take so many of those before you lose > control surfaces or lifting ability) is going to do non-trivial damage. > And a significant number of those are going to be on the pilot... even > misses (and tracers, and popping sounds accompanied by holes appearing in > the wings) are likely to induce some nervousness. These appear in _The World Is Not Enough_ and are, as far as I can tell, the only reason to see that film. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 8:35 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such/cheap warriors/Wisperer In a message dated 00-03-30 17:34:32 EST, you write: << 1) The Mi-Go have multiple biological castes, maybe like ants or bees, maybe in some other way. Some of these castes are non-reproductive and so are essentially "weapons" or "tools", like worker or warrior ants. Though fully conscious and intelligent, they have no instinct for self preservation and no fear of death. - a good starter for their "biological" technology? - HPL did say there were _many variants_ >> If they can make Greys, there is no reason to doubt that they can make Mi-Go "workers" or "soldiers". Mark McFadden From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 8:50 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such Um, I'm beginning to wonder if it's just Mi-Go who have trouble with with these things. If the structure of a fella telling me these things, ending with the observation that he could make some bucks out this whole "Army" thing with repeated reminders that I was being told this with a stand-up comic presentation are not enough, let me supply that B between A and C. Everything above the ObDG: line was what we in the biz call a "joke". But thanks for the insights. Mark McFadden Then again, perhaps I really am such a knuckle-dragging mouth-breathing idiot that I thought all that stuff was a real good idea. You just can't tell these days. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of DocHopt@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 11:52 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Theme Song In a message dated 3/26/00 8:41:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, Appelion@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 3/26/00 11:27:39 AM, msb216@is7.nyu.edu writes: > It's the Charnel Dreams music vid.... > >*A pyramid with an eye in it* > Robbie, your turn now... > > Xavier > Buh, what? From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:08 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Mi-Go deviousness (was Re: Re: TRADECRAFT: ultralights and such/cheap warriors/Wisperer From: Andy Robertson > This makes my mind jump off to "The Wisperer In Darkness". I have sometimes > wondered about the combat behaviour of the Mi-Go in that story. Funny--I read TWiD a week ago and had the very same thought. I came to the conclusion that the Mi-Go just _couldn't _ be _that_ incompetent, and that it was therefore most likely that the whole thing was an OUTLOOK-style experiment, measuring reactions to a variety of encounters. Perhaps Akely was the original subject, and then it expanded out to the narrator, or the narrator was the subject all along, with Akely as a Mi-Go agent--or maybe Akely never even existed, and _all_ the letters were written by the Mi-Go or their agent, Mr. Noyes. Assuming Akely was the focus of the experiment, most likely no Mi-Go were killed at all, although human agents might have been. The fungal corpse Akely found was probably a mock-up. It is possible that the Mi-Go _did_ screw up in allowing Akely to get in touch with the narrator, at which point they had to try to do damage control, fumbling around and finally deciding to change the parameters of the experiment and continue it with the narrator. But why let him escape in the end? (It's obvious they let him escape--he was far too gullible to have given them the slip.) Long-term observation--they knew no one of consequence would believe the narrator, and that those who did were pesky investigators who would then come in search for the Mi-Go, which would allow them to tag and identify possible dangers to their projects on Earth, while giving them more interesting subjects for experimentation. All part of the plan--draw the flies out with honey, so you know where they are. > - a good starter for their "biological" technology? > - HPL did say there were _many variants_ _Delta Green Eyes Only Volume One: Machinations of the Mi-Go_ is being reprinted. Order a copy--you'll find lots about variants and Mi-Go biotech in there. Something I hadn't thought of before in relation to TWiD was the Nyarlathotep connection. In the new Penguin collection, Joshi mentions a contention among HPL scholars over whether the "Akely" the narrator talks to at the end is a disguised Mi-Go or Nyarlathotep himself, having a little fun (the "waxen mask" being a key point). Personally, I don't buy it, but I did peg Noyes as being a possible Nyarlathotep avatar (split in two, the name becomes a typically toe-tapper-esque koan, as in "Hi! I'm Mr. No-Yes"). I've been chewing that over ever since. Dave Hey, don't we have a Jay Noyes on this list...? Guards, detain that man! From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Austin Chamberlain [austin@light.mth.uct.ac.za] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:20 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Jean-loup stand up Popeyesays@aol.com wrote: > mermoud@easynet.fr writes: > > << BTW : Noone use "Merkin" and noone would use it (unless I can start > a trend ;-) > >> > > Considering that a "merkin" is a hair piece for the crotch, I doubt that it > will catch on. > But that's the whole _point_. Americans _are_ being compared to pubic wigs. Um, no offense intended. I would never use Merkin in any sense whatsoever, let alone referring to one of our western hemisphere brethren. Really. Austin -- These hands!! I can't get them off my wrists!! Oh, God!! - Happy Noodle Boy