From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:45 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Dreamspaces & Dreamfusions This is turning into one hot thread. Davide, I know you don't have time for Ice Cave updates right now, but I hope you're saving all this. From: Davide Mana > BTW - I explained my vivid dreams as an effect of stress. > SuperDave's "Gambare!" directed me to an alternative, less melodramathic > interpretation. > These dreams come when I acquire lots of new informations - through study > or such. Still, it doesn't invalidate the idea that all this is really a dreamfusion. (I'm highly skeptical of that myself, but I'm still thinking primarily from a use-it-for-CoC point of view, not real life.) Just as drugs, incense, musical tones, ritual chants, etc, can all set the mind up to cross over into the DL, so could stress/overworking of the brain. My take is that you just need to get the right chemicals or brainwave patterns going and you'll slip through the gate. (And I've handed those Egyptian poseurs their retirement papers, BTW--even HPL wrote of multiple gates into the DL, and those guys always bored me.) > I guess I'll have to use Dr McFadden's patented method and try and look at > my hands during the next dream in which we meet. Yes, and I'd like to request Mark to give us a write-up about that, Castaneda (and peyote) being a bit hard to acquire in Japan. I've been running on the assumption that it's a mind-trick to signal your brain that you are in control, and/or to make you remember that you're in a dream. Like a post-hypnotic-suggestion trigger. Other ways (a code word, etc) would work, too; it's just one of many choices. And From: Andy Robertson > Let me just say I was astonished by the response to this. I had thought > that "Dreamspaces" like mine were unusual. Obviously we are all a lot > madder than I thought! I wonder if RPGers, or even CoCers, have a larger concentration of "active dreamers" than the wider populace. I wouldn't be surprised. > I think we should be alert for information about the Dreamlands coming to us > from channels outside Lovecrafts writing and SOP. Our own dreams - and, > yes, literature. And let me put a word in for children's literature here. > I challenge any agent to read MARIANNE DREAMS even though it is supposedly a > children's book) and tell me that they have not visited the authentic > Dreamlands, and a perilous part of them as well. That's why I mentioned Oz and Narnia before. I'm now vaguely remembering some travels in Narnia when I was a kid. (It's not terribly well-known in America; is it overdone in Britain?) > My musing and questioning about Dreamspaces > and Dreamfusions is just an attempt to get a little _evidence_ about how > we may be affecting the Dreamlands now. Well, we seem to be teetering on the edge between Game and Reality here, which is fine by me, something I'm quite comfortable with, really--but I just want to state that while the dreams I've described are real (well, not _real_, but you know what I mean), the theories I espouse are purely game-related. OTOH, while I don't really believe in the Dreamlands, I don't disbelieve in them, either--in fact, I think they're probably more likely to exist than God, and I don't reject him/her/it/them/me/us out of hand. > I sort of imagine personal Dreamspaces following many of us around, and > little Dreamfusions coming into being, then perhaps failing to gain critical > mass and falling back into non-entity . . . but some of them surpassing that > critical mass and becoming new aspects, layers, locii or strata of the > Dreamlands. Which may indeed (probably are) have parts that are pre-human. Which brings us back to Kult--this sounds very much like Kult's version of the DL, with a branch of magic devoted to Dreaming, and some being such powerful Dream Masters that they can create entire realms that others can share. Rather like King Kuranes, but moreso. Unlike him, they're usually completely, dangerously insane (though I've always thought of Kuranes as rather harmlessly dotty, like a cross between a London ragman and King Ludwig II). Even so, of all the magical paths of Kult, the path of Dreams is definitely the one I would take. Definitely something to check out, if you can find a copy of the main book. To avoid taking the big power trip into madness, I'd stay small. One of my former 1920s CoC characters, Skyler Farnsworth, managed to cross over into the DL when he died in the 1960s, and has become a rather powerful Dreamer, but he has kept his realm quite small: a pleasant jazz/blues restaurant like he owned in New York (it was a speakeasy during the last years of Prohibition, then went legit). It's called Mike's Place, and has a number of doors that open to various cities and towns (Ulthar, Dylath-Leen, Celephais, Hlanith, and so on), but does not actually exist in any of them (a good tax-dodge). Sky keeps his head down and doesn't piss off anyone--Mike's Place is neutral ground, a safehaven for the weary and troubled. Sky just gives advice and other minor assistance, cleans glasses, and sometimes plays piano, especially when Roy Orbison stops by, which is pretty often. (I was originally planning to have it feature in "Angel," but I doubt it will, now, partly because "Callahan's" is really so much better-suited to DG-Agent Dreamers. If Maria makes any stops at DL bars, it'll likely be Callahan's rather than Mike's.) And From: Nerva Vels > When I was young, I traveled Dreamland. I used to call them The Dreamlanes, > and it was like a railroad, with stops that people came through when they > slept or daydreamed. The image of a train traveling through the DL is so good, I've just got to borrow it. Violates my anti-tech stance a bit, but if we made it a really old-fashioned steam-engine--hey, it could be powered by a Welsh dragon, now couldn't it? See, that cartoon thread is coming in handy... > You could tell what was sleep dreams and what was day > dreams by how solid the person was. Well, for some reason, I used to > investigate the 'stations' and chasing me was The Grey Man (whenever you > guys talk about the guy who 'cleans up', or people like Men In Black or > Alphonse, that's who I think of). He was evil in a visceral, > nasty, little-girls-should-be-very-afraid way. He came from where dreams > didn't exist, I thought; I visited his world. It was empty, barren, grey, > cold. This is gold, Nervy--pure gold. Thank you. And same to all the others who posted their Dreamlands. I'm sure a lot of this is going to work into our games--and our dreams. In fact, if a Dreamfusion is possible, this could very well be the beginning of one. We all start thinking of each other's Dreamlands, and-- oh my...hello there Davide! Mark! I'd know you anywhere! Wait, let me guess--Andy, right? Oh, William--then _you_ must be Andy! Who...Kenneth? I almost didn't recognize you, bra. Hey, Nervy, good to see you! Wait...who's that grayfaced bastard standing over there, looking nervous? Oh, that's _him_, is it? Right gang, let's teach this scumbag a lesson he won't forget... > I visited lots of dreamworlds; some were so horrible I don't > remember them, some were off in wierd ways, most I had adventures in, and > the visits to the dreamlanes always, ALWAYS set The Grey Man after me. I > discovered that being in love or doing things out of the norm, while it > enraged him, also made him flee me. Or at least unable to catch me. Yea, > I'm still scared of The Grey Man. I wonder........ Sounds like the Grey Man represents conformity and giving up--love and spontaneity anger and weaken him. Possible avatar of Nyarlathotep, which suggests that the Beatles and Jesus were right: love is the way to fight the GOO (OK, I'm paraphrasing). Have you ever been able to confront/attack him? (Not suggesting it--just curious.) This has awakened a memory of the Masked Man, who pursued me through dreams in my adolescence (soon after my mother remarried and we moved a long distance--I was pretty dislocated for a while). I finally killed him off by doing a series of paintings and poems about him in college. And yes, he was born before I'd read any HPL or Chambers, so the King in Yellow probably really chimed with me due to that. Anyway, Nervy, drop by Mike's Place or Callahan's sometime--I can assure you I'll be trying to get to either place, or the Dreamlanes train, or the Black-and-White City, every night from now on. I'm sure Sky or Harry will have some excellent advice--or sufficient firepower--to take care of any unwanted guests. In dreams... Dave a candy-colored clown they call the sandman From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 12:01 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Threshold for Real Life Horror From: > EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: > > Yeah, introduce them to STAR TREK - The next Generation - Roleplaying Game! > > > Ironically enough, I'm running a game of that currently... > > And Feng Shui. Now there's an interesting combo--ST:TNG and Feng Shui. Although Carnival of Carnage with phasors might be overkill. :-) From: Daniel Harms > Eckhard wrote: > >Horror that does not challenge people's basic values is just a role-playing > >game. > > But can't that be enough? Yes, I think it can, although it's not the style of horror RPGing that I like to play these days. OTOH, I wouldn't want to drop a bunch of newcomers into the pot right away--let them get into it a bit. (By newcomers, I mean new to RPGs, not just horror gaming.) And if they don't like the horror after a while, we move on to something else. No shame in that--I just want to have fun with my friends. Dave Join us! http://n.ethz.ch/student/hankef/DeltaGreen/tshirt.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:21 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Montecassino Greetings. The always informed Daniel harms observed >The scary thing is, I've heard of Monte Cassino in connection with the >Mythos before, in Joan Stanley's EX LIBRIS MISKATONICI >(Necronomicon Press). According to her work, Monte Cassino was >actually the repository of a copy of the Necronomicon (Greek or >Latin), which was supposedly destroyed in the bombing. > >Of course, there could have been other reasons, but this might be a good >place for a Keeper's inspiration to start. Well, out of curiosity I've checked out Montecassino for historical facts. The original was built in 529, in the place originarily occupied by the cassino acropolis and the Apollo temple. By the VII century, it was such an important beacon for Christianity that kings and princes found it a good political move to spend some time there for devotional purposes (Charles Magnus included). In 883, Moslem raiders attack the building, razing it and burning all they can find. The place is rebuilt in 950 and grows progressively. A pair of Montecassino Abbots become Popes. in 1349, a freak earthquake razes the place. The place is rebuilt in the XVI century, but no longer has the influence it had before. In 1944 the place gets razed for a third time, courtesy of John Bull and Uncle Sam - the only bit that survived untouched is the VIIIth century crypt (I knew you'd have loved this detail), where part of the manuscript colection has been astutely stashed away. Curious bits. A building that gets routinely destroyed ay 500 years intervals. A congregation charged with keeping an eye on a collection of books. And paranoid! Why place a few special pieces of the collection in the underground chambers when the Pope himself had granted the safety of the whole building? To hide them away from unpleasant visitors? According to my sources, at the moment of the attack, the Abbey was occupied only by monks, refugees and wounded, and _a small group of German officers_. So, if the Wehrmacht was running to get to Montecassino ahead of the Allies, some Germans were there already. And I bet they were of the black-trimmed-in-silver kind of Nazis. As Eckhard noted, Wehrmacht elements possibly agreed with the Allies about saving the building. karotechia might have had other plans. So, let's take a look at the factions involved, shall we....? . Plain Vanilla Benedectine Monks - they have the care of the building . St Jerome - probably managing the whole secret library biz. They are here to protect certain tomes in the collection. I'd say a Father Librarian, a pair of Knights of SJ and possibly a handful of Swiss Guards. . Karotechia - in the guise of a handful of SS officers that happened to pass by as night was falling and asked for hospitality. The monks have to agree, but OSSJ ops hide the books in the Crypt. . Wehrmacht - running to get there first. If the Pope's request is granted and Montecassino is a safe house, why not take advantage of it? . Allied Forces - running to get there first. If the Pope's request is granted and Montecassino is a safe house, why not take advantage of it? . Delta Green and/or PISCES - operating both sides of the lines to get to the books before K. does. Should the op fail.... . DG/PISCES Zeppo Unit - are ready to call in an air raid and make sute the place is sanitized. Screw the Pope's requests. The DG/PISCES field unit probably uses local help in the form of one or more elements from Italian partisan groups. The K. kids are probably accompanied by one or more "Republichini" - the post '43 hardcore fascist militia under the provisional Salo' Republic aegis. My goodness - not only this would make for a capital scenario. I'd love to see this one developed the way 'Raid on Innsmouth' was - in progressive sections detailing the various moments of the op. Considering the number of forces involved, and the number of agendas being run - not to mentional personal hatreds and non-Mythos conspiracies - the permutations would be too many to count and very very interesting from a roleplaying point of view. Would the Wehrmacht officer in charge of the advance scout group side with the remnants of the OSSJ task force in defending the core of the building from crazed, Mythos-corrupted SS goons? Could the DG boys in place recruit Sgt Rock and his war weary band of rough heroes - accidentally fallen behind enemy lines - as inpromptu backup after the loss of 1/3 of the original lineup? A temporary Wehrmacht/Allied alliance to thwart a Mythos plot? The more I think about this the more I feel the need to play this one. Hmmmmmm.... Aren't the Pagan gentlemen writing a colossal World War Two supplement? (hint hint, nudge nudge) Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Crossingham, Adam [Adam.Crossingham@Octavian1009.E-MAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:15 AM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: RE: DG: the movie More DG: the Movie thoughts... Director(s) (what they're good at): * Don Seigel or John Frankenheimer (competent) * Ridley Scott or Terry Gilliam (lush art styling) * David Fincher [snap!!] (very dark themes) * 1970s Francis Ford Coppola or Oliver Stone (conspiracy) * James Cameron (good action, but in your face moral story). Script: * Quentin Taratino (for the patois and the tradecraft minutiae). Score: * Lalo Schiffrin * Peter Gabriel (needs to do more after Birdy and Last Temptation) ** Definitely not Jerry Goldsmith unless he promises not to recycle anything he's used before. Cast: * Clint Eastwood is Reggie Fairfax * Pam Grier is Agent Andrea -- Adam Crossingham "Tell JAGUAR 1 to kill them. All of them. It isn't an order, it's an imperative." Home e-mail: zodiac@theblackseal.org Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:42 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie Jonathan Turner schrieb: [snip] > Who would we have directing Delta Green: > the movie? I guess my favourite man for the job would be David Fincher. And of course: Tim Buron Rather interesting could be to have it directed by Ingmar Bergman. I think if he weren't dead that Kurosawa would have made a good movie out of the material. And of course there's Alan Parker or George A. Romero. Anyway, here's my list of directors I would NOT want to see directing it: * John Carpenter * James Cameron * Wim Wenders [ Tinto Brass might be an interesting choice though...] >Who would our composer be? Here's my list: * B.Herrmann [ composed the music for "PSYCHO" but he might well be dead ] * John Williams * or even E.Morricone [ if he isn't dead already ] ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:54 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: the movie At 01:14 PM 4/6/00 -0000, you wrote: >* James Cameron (good action, but in your face moral story). > Sounds like DG to me. Humans good, Mythos bad... Let's face it, otherwise ain't no-one going to watch the sucker... >Script: > >* Quentin Taratino (for the patois and the tradecraft minutiae). > But I HATE him!!! >** Definitely not Jerry Goldsmith unless he promises not to recycle anything >he's used before. > All movie composers do that, though. Alan Silvestri step right up. Aliens sounds just like Uncommon Valor, y'know... >* Clint Eastwood is Reggie Fairfax But I thought Charlton Heston already played him in True Lies? >* Pam Grier is Agent Andrea > What about Woody Allen in that role? Or Steve Buscemi reprising Mr Shush from Thing To Do In Denver When You're Dead? Or my favourite movie assassin of all time... Max von Synow in Three Days of the Condor... >"Tell JAGUAR 1 to kill them. All of them. It isn't an order, it's an >imperative." *wink* From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:53 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Rebuttal of the Californium Bullet Idea On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 box_nine@ix.netcom.com wrote: > >From Global Ideas Bank (http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-528.HTML, specifically): > > "The idea of using californium or antimatter as bombs fails to take into account the fact that, in > either case, the whole world output of those materials is less than 1 gram. The energy required to generate either of those > materials far exceeds the possible reaction energy. Further, in the case of californium, the decay rate is so fast that you would > have to gather a critical mass together in less that 1/100th of a second - that is to say, the only place you'd be able to destroy with > it is the weapons plant. Elaborate, expensive and bulky magnetic systems are required to contain antimatter, the cost and size of > which would far exceed the supposed size advantages from the reaction mass itself." > I don't deny that there are large technical challenges on the anti-matter front, or that Ca bullets aren't really feasible because of the decay time (though Traveller had a nice way around this by positing a technology that could enhance or weaken the strong nuclear force that holds nuclei together). There may be a way around this which is why I made an elliptical reference to Red Mercury. One of the factors controlling the critical mass of any fissile material configuration is the number of neutrons that escape without triggering a fission. If there was a way of surrounding a fissile material with something that reflects back the neutrons, or even better that sends back 2 when one comes out, then you might be able to make smaller warheads. This may of course not be possible, but that never stopped MJ-12 before! Red Mercury, a mythical substance that may or may not have been a Soviet code word for Plutonium or for something else, *might* have the properties described above. If so, you might be able to make U-235 bullets coated in RM that could cause a fission explosion.... This is of course entirely speculative! Dave From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of MARTIN WOLFF [martin_wolff@globalcrossing.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Electric gun Here's a link to someone who has made electric guns (actually a rail gun):- http://electrogravity.hypermart.net/railgun/index.html Enjoy, Martin. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:58 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie Crossingham, Adam schrieb: > More DG: the Movie thoughts... > > Director(s) (what they're good at): [snip] >Terry Gilliam (lush art styling) Probably good for Dreamland scenes. [snip] > Oliver Stone (conspiracy) If he uses the semi-documentary style of JFK: Good choice. But the problem with Mr. Stone is that he tends to believe in the strange conspiracy theories in his movies. > * James Cameron (good action, but in your face moral story). Problem: He wasted $200.000.000 to illustrate the end of a bloody steam engine ship. Imagine how much money he might need to illustrate the Rise of R'Lyeh including the appearance of Mighty Cthulhu! [snip] > * Peter Gabriel (needs to do more after Birdy and Last Temptation) His unemployment should be no reason to let him ruin a good film. [snip] > Cast: > > * Clint Eastwood is Reggie Fairfax > * Pam Grier is Agent Andrea Sean Connery is Doctor Joseph Camp Harrison Ford is Justin Croft Patrick Stewart is Gavin Ross Tommy Lee Jones is Adolph Lepus Sir Peter Ustinov is Dr. Bitterich Dustin Hoffman is Dr. Gunter Frank Johnny Depp is Robert Hubert Jack Nicholson is Stephen Alzis Special Apperances: Jackie Chan as Agent Chut-Te Wu O.J. Simpson as Lt.Col. Emil Furst ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:05 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie At 01:41 PM 4/6/00 +0200, you wrote: >I guess my favourite man for the job would be David Fincher. > Fincher is good, as evidenced by Seven, but he's a bit hit and miss don't you think? And how does he do action? We have to have some action in it, after all... >And of course: Tim Buron > Yeah, that might be a good choice... >And of course there's Alan Parker or George A. Romero. > Capcom have chucked Romero off the Resident Evil project... I doubt he could cut it these days. >Anyway, here's my list of directors I would NOT want to see directing it: > >* John Carpenter >* James Cameron >* Wim Wenders > I think Cameron would be able to pull it off, actually. And even more pull it into the mainstream a bit like he did with horror in Aliens... Or maybe we don't want that. Imagine hundreds on the DGML... THOUSANDS!!! >>Who would our composer be? > >Here's my list: > >* B.Herrmann [ composed the music for "PSYCHO" but he might well be dead ] Good choice. I use his stuff a lot for atmosphere. >* John Williams The Saving Private Ryan soundtrack sucked eggs though. Michael Giachino's stuff for Medal of Honor was far more inspiring... IMHO >* or even E.Morricone [ if he isn't dead already ] > And we can get Henry Fonda to play the villain. No, hang on... JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie Greetings. >Cameron would be good, but even though I deeply love John Carpenter's >stuff, he'd just try and make it another western... But that means Carpenter's the right man to hire for the prequel: "Delta Green - The Cowboy Years" The Cameron bit reminded me of the old 'Ghost in the Shell' movie review - "the kind of cartoon that James Cameron would do if ever Disney let him." So, why not just send copies of relevant DG material to Masamune Shirow and ask him for a manga/anime development. Sure it would please the gunfondlers. And just think about the Andrea Character Design.... Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:08 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie At 02:57 PM 4/6/00 +0200, you wrote: >> Oliver Stone (conspiracy) > >If he uses the semi-documentary style of JFK: Good choice. >But the problem with Mr. Stone is that he tends to believe in the strange >conspiracy theories in his movies. > You mean... you don't BELIEVE!! >> * James Cameron (good action, but in your face moral story). > >Problem: He wasted $200.000.000 to illustrate the end of a bloody steam engine >ship. >Imagine how much money he might need to illustrate the Rise of R'Lyeh including >the appearance of Mighty Cthulhu! > We're not paying for it though... ;-) > >Tommy Lee Jones is Adolph Lepus Inspired casting there... >Sir Peter Ustinov is Dr. Bitterich Surely you mean Christopher Lee? See Sleepy Hollow? >Dustin Hoffman is Dr. Gunter Frank ``MJ-12 never crash...'' >Special Apperances: >Jackie Chan as Agent Chut-Te Wu >O.J. Simpson as Lt.Col. Emil Furst > LMAO JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:09 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie At 02:56 PM 4/6/00 +0200, you wrote: >So, why not just send copies of relevant DG material to Masamune Shirow and >ask him for a manga/anime development. Appleseed rocks, but it would just give him an opportunity to have a giant robot battling Cthulhu... maybe piloted by the Beastie Boys? JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:11 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Some questions From: Jonathan Turner > Interestingly enough, and on topic for a change, I had a friend who ran a > scenario for 2300 which involved a mysterious shadowy group using Colours > to power ships. As they leech power though, I don't see how that would work. Negative energy? Used to open wormholes? > Now brimming with nostalgia for deck plans, battledress and FGMP-15s... Ooo, me too. I'm scared I'm going to go nuts and order the GURPS Traveller books. And then I'd have to buy the core rules, and then...well, I've got nothing against GURPS, but it never ends, does it? Dave From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:06 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Electric gun From: Jonathan Turner > It's okay. We're here for you. Actually, I was most cheered up by the > general attitude of folk on this list yesterday, having witnessed terrible > flaming and rows on other, less enlightened lists. We may be bitter, > twisted and cynical, but we're basically Good Guys... Well, apart from the > MiB, because protomatter doesn't qualify. I think... Hey, somebody's gotta do it--we just leave it all up to him, which frees the rest of us from accumulating bad karma. The MiB accumulates it for us. So you see, the MiB is actually a sort of violent, twisted saint. You can even pray to him. Go ahead, I dare you. OTOH, maybe he's just building a Bad Karma Bomb. Dave From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:37 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Re: Re: Threshold for Real Life Horror From: Mused > Finally the truth is out. > > The trick is to shed the illusions without shedding the sanity Ooo, that's Doc's project, man. Perfect description. Dave Join us! http://n.ethz.ch/student/hankef/DeltaGreen/tshirt.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@iwa.att.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 7:35 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Dreamspaces & Paperhouse From: Juergen Hubert > Last night, for example, I dreamed that I was wearing the teeth of > another person - old, diseased teeth that were rapidly falling apart. > And, indeed, one tooth came out when I tried to brush them - it only was > connected to the rest of my teeth by a long, diseased strip of flesh... > > I tend to see my dreams as a source of entertainment... Interesting ideas about entertainment you have--no wonder you're on this list. :-) Dave Join us! http://n.ethz.ch/student/hankef/DeltaGreen/tshirt.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:24 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Dreamspaces & Dreamfusions Regarding grey men... anyone here read Momo? Great novel by Michael Ende (who also wrote the also great Neverending Story). Essentially, Men in Grey are going about the land, stealing people's time. Hard to tell more without spoiling, but if you can possibly beg/borrow or steal this novel, DO SO! -=Will ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Crossingham, Adam [Adam.Crossingham@Octavian1009.E-MAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:26 AM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: RE: DG: the movie Executive Producer Jonathan Turner pitches: <<< Sounds like DG to me. Humans good, Mythos bad... Let's face it, otherwise > ain't no-one going to watch the sucker... >>> > Sure you can have good vs. bad but the director has got to convey a mythos universe background of "who gives a fuck". I say waste all the stars in the first 30 minutes and let the unknowns carry the plot.... <<< But I thought Charlton Heston already played him [Reggie Fairfax] > in True Lies? >>> > But Clint does a better 'madder than hell' look than Charlton, and he only appears as Reggie in the opening sequence - plus you cannot kill Clint, so we do. Lots of times. <<< Aliens sounds just like Uncommon Valor, y'know... >>> And the opening sequence of Aliens was ripped straight off a ballet too... <<< Or my favourite movie assassin > of all time... Max von Synow in Three Days of the Condor... >>> > Jumping at a tangent... casting against type: Robert Redford is Stephen Alzis Eckhard casts: <<< Sean Connery is Doctor Joseph Camp >>> Too heroic - too bad, Henry Fonda is dead <<< Tommy Lee Jones is Adolph Lepus>>> Hired! Jonathan to Eckhard: <<<>Sir Peter Ustinov is Dr. Bitterich Surely you mean Christopher Lee? See Sleepy Hollow?>>> Absolutely, or we get Gielgud to reprise his Boys From Brazil role...... -- Adam Crossingham This week's Green Box special: the HK PDW with 20 rounds of 725 m/sec sushi slicing mayhem. Buy two, get a free laser spot of imminent sushi-ness. Home e-mail: zodiac@theblackseal.org Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:20 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Threshold for Real Life Horror >From: Jean-Loup Sabatier >The Glove Cleaner wrote: > > There are any number of abortion supporters who will say "abortion isn't > > murder". I do not share this illusion. I think it is an example of >the > > routine and healthy lying-to-oneself so necessary to thrive >psychologically. > >I really don't want to create a hot debate about abortion, but do you >really >think that a foetus with an unfinished brain, with neither elaborate >thoughts >nor language can be called a "human being" ? It has all the potential to >become >a human being, but in my opinion it is not. So, in my opinion, the abortion >is rather "killing something that may have become a human being", but not >killing a human being, and to me, that's completely different : it's still >"killing" but it's not a "murder" (in my opinion). > >Just my two cents... This illustrates the central problem with the abortion issue. Primarily, it's axiomatic. For most observers, it is either obviously murder or it is obviously not. >From there, you have further details of arguments, but there will likely never be resolution of opinion. You can't argue the obvious, either way. -=Will ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:35 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: the movie On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Crossingham, Adam wrote: > Jonathan to Eckhard: > > <<<>Sir Peter Ustinov is Dr. Bitterich > > Surely you mean Christopher Lee? See Sleepy Hollow?>>> > > Absolutely, or we get Gielgud to reprise his Boys From Brazil role...... Too bad Olivier isn't available to reprise his role from Marathon Man. Or did someone manage to collect his essential salts? Dave From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Crossingham, Adam [Adam.Crossingham@Octavian1009.E-MAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:49 AM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: RE: DG: the movie > Whoops. It seems Olivier was in 'Boys from Brazil' AND 'Marathon Man', and Gielgud was in neither. Now eats humble pie- I always confuse Olivier and Gielgud - well, they're both West End theatres aren't they? From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:59 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Montecassino I love this thread. Davide Mana schrieb: > Greetings. [ snip] > Well, out of curiosity I've checked out Montecassino for historical facts. > The original was built in 529, in the place originarily occupied by the > cassino acropolis and the Apollo temple. A religious site built on the ruins of another religious site? Interesting. Probably the buildings, first the Apollo temple then the monastery, were built to cover up an even older religious site. The builders of these temples and churches just used a religion that was en vogue in the given era to hide their real belief. Just one idea. [snip] > In 883, Moslem raiders attack the building, razing it and burning all they > can find. And they probably had a very good reason to do so. And they might even have been the "ancestors" of a group that I developed for my Paperclip '89 campaign: My group is "The Fist of Allah", a muslim group fighting the mythos that has been created by......Libya's own Col. Muammar Al-Ghaddaffi. In this campaign the Fist of Allah is a possible ally for the PCs. The Problem is that the Fist of Allah's methods are...well...pretty harsh => One word: Lockerbie > The place is rebuilt in 950 and grows progressively. > A pair of Montecassino Abbots become Popes. By using their weird magical powers? > in 1349, a freak earthquake razes the place. Thousands of ideas come up when hearing this. > The place is rebuilt in the XVI century, but no longer has the influence it > had before. > In 1944 the place gets razed for a third time, courtesy of John Bull and > Uncle Sam - the only bit that survived untouched is the VIIIth century > crypt (I knew you'd have loved this detail), where part of the manuscript > colection has been astutely stashed away. Mon dieu. > > Curious bits. > A building that gets routinely destroyed ay 500 years intervals. But by whom? By what? And why? [snip] > So, let's take a look at the factions involved, shall we....? [snip] > . Karotechia - in the guise of a handful of SS officers that happened to > pass by as night was falling and asked for hospitality. The monks have to > agree, but OSSJ ops hide the books in the Crypt. It seems you think of a kind of Karotechia undercover operation? But in my opinion Karotechia would not disguise themselves as SS-Men. Probably as Wehrmacht officers....or even allied soldiers? [snip] > My goodness - not only this would make for a capital scenario. > I'd love to see this one developed the way 'Raid on Innsmouth' was - in > progressive sections detailing the various moments of the op. Yep, Switching from unit to unit, from scene to scene. Great Idea, Herr Mana! > Considering the number of forces involved, and the number of agendas being > run - not to mentional personal hatreds and non-Mythos conspiracies - the > permutations would be too many to count and very very interesting from a > roleplaying point of view. > > Would the Wehrmacht officer in charge of the advance scout group side with > the remnants of the OSSJ task force in defending the core of the building > from crazed, Mythos-corrupted SS goons? Perhaps not all of them, since the scout group will definitely not be a homogenous [sp?] group. Possible characters / NPCs / archetypes: The Wehrmacht officer who is a true believer in Nazi ideology. He will be loyal to even the weirdest plans and organisations of the Fuehrer and his friends. He chose the profession because he believed in the ideas of the racial conflicts and the German's need for space in East. The Wehrmacht officer who joined the Wehrmacht because becoming an officer is a tradition in his noble family. He opposes Nazi ideology and has friends and fellow colleagues that try to persuade him to join their conspiracy to "get rid off" Hitler. If he gets to know Karotechia and their plans he might not only be willing to cooperate with the allies but will also make a decision to join ANY conspiracy that will try to stop the Fuehrers plans. [snip] > A temporary Wehrmacht/Allied alliance to thwart a Mythos plot? Magnificent! > > The more I think about this the more I feel the need to play this one. Me too, me too. ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:02 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: the movie OT On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Crossingham, Adam wrote: > > Whoops. > It seems Olivier was in 'Boys from Brazil' AND 'Marathon Man', and Gielgud > was in neither. > Now eats humble pie- I always confuse Olivier and Gielgud - well, they're > both West End theatres aren't they? IIRC The Olivier is at the National Theatre on the South Bank - not really West End... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Crossingham, Adam [Adam.Crossingham@Octavian1009.E-MAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:13 AM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: RE: DG: the movie OT > David.Clements nit-picks: <<< IIRC The Olivier is at the National Theatre on the South Bank - not > really West End... >>> > I really tempted to get my hand-powered dental drill and experiment on patients named 'Clements' :) From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:19 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: the movie OT On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Crossingham, Adam wrote: > > David.Clements nit-picks: > <<< IIRC The Olivier is at the National Theatre on the South Bank - not > > really West End... >>> > > > I really tempted to get my hand-powered dental drill and experiment on > patients named 'Clements' :) Its not safe. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:20 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Dreamspaces & Dreamfusions William Timmins schrieb: > Regarding grey men... anyone here read Momo? > > Great novel by Michael Ende (who also wrote the also great Neverending > Story). > > Essentially, Men in Grey are going about the land, stealing people's time. > > Hard to tell more without spoiling, but if you can possibly beg/borrow or > steal this novel, DO SO! > > -=Will AAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrghghghghgh! Do not - I repeat: DO NOT read this book. You might end up chosing "The little Prince" as your next book. This is not meant ot critisize you, Will, but I really hated this book. still horrified, ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:20 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie Jonathan Turner schrieb: > At 02:57 PM 4/6/00 +0200, you wrote: [snip] > >Sir Peter Ustinov is Dr. Bitterich > > Surely you mean Christopher Lee? See Sleepy Hollow? Well, in fact Christover Lee was among my favourites for Stephen Alzis. I think his voice to be too strong for Bitterich. And: Sir Ustinov has the talent to imitate a German accent. One might of course as well think of Armin Mueller-Stahl. [snip] > LMAO What means LMAO? Enlighten me. ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Randell Wolff [randell.wolff@murraystate.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 11:33 AM To: Delta Green Listserv Subject: DG: Flechette shotgun ammunition I was wondering if anyone on the list had come up with any rule mechanics for the effects of flechette shotgun ammunition. Would it have the same effect as AP ammunition as described in the main Delta Green book? I must admit I do not have a very technical understadning of this (or any other) ammunition. Thanks.... Randell Wolff "If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face." --Rage against the Machine, "Settle for Nothing" From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Stephen Joseph Ellis [sje1@st-andrews.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:40 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > Well, in fact Christover Lee was among my favourites for Stephen Alzis. Cristopher Lee as Alzis?, I always thought of Alzis as a middleaged man. How about Gabriel Byrne or Kevin Spacey? Peter Cushing might make an decent Bitterich while Andrea Thompson could do a cameo as Andrea and kill someone. Steve. (Who wants to adapt 'the Usual Suspects' for DG) From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:46 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: the movie OT At 03:18 PM 4/6/00 +0100, you wrote: > >Its not safe. > > No, no, it's so safe you wouldn't believe it. Really. Have you ever read the book, BTW? It's an absolute stonker. Even better than the movie, IMHO. JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:47 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie At 04:20 PM 4/6/00 +0200, you wrote: >Jonathan Turner schrieb: >Well, in fact Christover Lee was among my favourites for Stephen Alzis. >I think his voice to be too strong for Bitterich. I dunno. He played a good German in 1942. And he ain't getting any younger... >> LMAO > >What means LMAO? Enlighten me. > > Apologies. Laughing My Ass Off. A short-hand way of signalling great, great, amusement. JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Daniel M Harms [dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:48 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Montecassino On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Davide Mana wrote: > Greetings. > The always informed Daniel harms observed > >The scary thing is, I've heard of Monte Cassino in connection with the > >Mythos before, in Joan Stanley's EX LIBRIS MISKATONICI > >(Necronomicon Press). According to her work, Monte Cassino was > >actually the repository of a copy of the Necronomicon (Greek or > >Latin), which was supposedly destroyed in the bombing. > Well, out of curiosity I've checked out Montecassino for historical facts. > The original was built in 529, in the place originarily occupied by the > cassino acropolis and the Apollo temple. Here's a little speculation. First, we have to answer the question as to why the Vatican, if they wanted to protect the Nec., would leave it in Monte Cassino in the first place. After all, it would probably be safer in the Secret Vatican Archives (the one which now has a website), right? Now, as Eckhardt pointed out, the monastery was probably built on an old religious site, which pre-dates the Roman occupation and probably has connections to an older deity (like the infamous Tulchulcha). If this is true, then the monastery was not built to keep people out, but... (you know the rest) What does this have to do with the Necronomicon? Perhaps in the view of the Vatican, the creature beneath the site is powerful enough that if it tries to get out, it has to be contained immediately. To do this, the monastery is entrusted with one of the most powerful works of magic the world has ever seen - after all, if Ultimate Evil is on its way, you can't necessarily just trot down to the Vatican to look at their copy. The monks there, rather than being "plain vanilla", are actually familiar with the work's contents and may even have some magical training. Of course, this can be both good and bad... Yrs., Daniel From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:05 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: the movie At 03:40 PM 4/6/00 +0100, you wrote: > Cristopher Lee as Alzis?, I always thought of Alzis as a >middleaged man. How about Gabriel Byrne or Kevin Spacey? > Spacey? We have a result... > Peter Cushing might make an decent Bitterich... If you could dig him up, I suppose JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of box_nine@ix.netcom.com Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:11 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re: DG: the movie Eckhard wrote: Well, in fact Christover Lee was among my favourites for Stephen Alzis. Nah, have someone who looks Arabic to play Alzis. He's a bit too heavy-set for my image of Alphonse, but Charles Durning? I think of Alphonse as the jolly uncle, occasionally peering above his glasses at a misbehaving agent. Of course, I'm getted ratted to the Karotechia for thoughts like that... Andrea, of course, should be completely nondescript. Wouldn't look at her twice. Maybe Debra Winger, made up the way she was in A DANGEROUS WOMAN? Steven From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of MARTIN WOLFF [martin_wolff@globalcrossing.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:15 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Montecassino > > > Greetings. > > > The always informed Daniel harms observed > > > >The scary thing is, I've heard of Monte Cassino in connection with the > > >Mythos before, in Joan Stanley's EX LIBRIS MISKATONICI > > >(Necronomicon Press). According to her work, Monte Cassino was > > >actually the repository of a copy of the Necronomicon (Greek or > > >Latin), which was supposedly destroyed in the bombing. > > > Well, out of curiosity I've checked out Montecassino for historical facts. > > The original was built in 529, in the place originarily occupied by the > > cassino acropolis and the Apollo temple. > > Here's a little speculation. First, we have to answer the question > as to why the Vatican, if they wanted to protect the Nec., would leave > it in Monte Cassino in the first place. After all, it would probably > be safer in the Secret Vatican Archives (the one which now has a > website), right? > > Now, as Eckhardt pointed out, the monastery was probably built on > an old religious site, which pre-dates the Roman occupation and > probably has connections to an older deity (like the infamous > Tulchulcha). If this is true, then the monastery was not built to > keep people out, but... (you know the rest) > > What does this have to do with the Necronomicon? Perhaps in the > view of the Vatican, the creature beneath the site is powerful > enough that if it tries to get out, it has to be contained > immediately. To do this, the monastery is entrusted with one > of the most powerful works of magic the world has ever seen - > after all, if Ultimate Evil is on its way, you can't necessarily > just trot down to the Vatican to look at their copy. The monks > there, rather than being "plain vanilla", are actually familiar > with the work's contents and may even have some magical training. > Of course, this can be both good and bad... > Perhaps the Vatican (or others) tried several time to take the Nec out but each time, an earthquake crushed the building and everyone in it. And so the book remained.... Martin. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Graeme Price [graemep@immagene.mcg.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:39 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Evil Government Projects >Anyway, what are some creepy projects or operations that the government has >slapped onto the populace at large, or at least on a minor scale. Examples >that come to mind are the Forced Sterilizations in the 30's, the radiation >"treatments" on mental patients, dropping soldiers next to atomic bomb >blasts, stuff like that. Can you worthwhile people think of anything else >that seems grossly barbaric? Further to the other answers.... - Forced sterilization: also went on in Scandinavia until comparatively recently (1970's? IIRC) - Sweden was a particularly bad culprit. - Population relocations: Australian Aboriginal children entering adoption or orphanage schemes. The problem with this one is that the officals involved at the time seemed to genuninely believe it was in the children's best interest. - Chem/Bioweapons experiments: need I mention the Japanese Unit 731? Also Porton Down in the UK (check the BBC search engine - an investigation of nerve gas experimentation on UK servicemen is ongoing). The alleged CIA attempt to destabilise the Cuban economy with African Swine Fever Virus (evidence is highly dodgy, so don't get me started)... and so on. These are just the ones off the top of my head. The fact of the matter is that _all_ governments do things which will later be regarded as morally questionable to later generations. Codes of ethics change and people forget the driving imperatives of the times which made a course of action at least _seem_ to be necessary... or popular (don't forget that in many cases the public will be the driving force behind such actions - remember in many cases the population elected the leaders who turned out to be monsters). Not that I'm an apologist for unethical governments, I just like to keep things in focus. Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu