From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Daniel Harms [dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:03 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green not horror? At 09:39 AM 4/8/2000 EDT, William Timmins wrote: >Beyond running one shots or limited series where just about everybody gets >chewed up or bonkers, 1920s campaigns, by necessity, limit the focus. I think what we're seeing here is not something typical of 1920s campaigns, but of DG vs. everything else. What CoC always lacked, IMO, was a strong campaign foundation. Once you go out with people to a house where your life and sanity are put at risk, you have to have a strong motivation to ever want to be near any of those people, much less go out and do it again. Further, any framing device to bring them together must be strong enough to do the job, but weak enough so that it doesn't resemble a bad version of "Ghostbusters". DG does this. My argument with your position, however, is that other framing devices could also do this - nobody's published them yet, though... >The point is, for there to be any continuity, you can't toss the game >against the backdrop. Or it will go 'splat'. 'You all die, the universe is >doomed, thanks for playing.' That doesn't touch what I'm saying either. Horror doesn't necessarily mean absolute risk to life and limb every time (as I've always said, you can't scare the dead), or that there needs to be endless, unrelenting terror in a setting. But those elements, in proper doses, is what makes a game a "horror" game. Yrs., Daniel Harms dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu The Internet: Learn what you know. Share what you don't. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 1:55 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pocket nukes On 5 April 2000 AD, LizardRoi@aol.com (Mark McFadden, Royal Lizard & Trusty Shellback) reported on a USMC demo of alleged sub-kiloton Special Munitions: > A buddy who is an ex-Marine told me about a demo the range instructors at >Camp Pendleton gave to his "class" of a nucular bullet. You know, with prearrangement (through appropriate connections), I could probably conduct this demo without resorting to nuclear warheads... >They had a standard >ammo case with a bright paint job and lots of nuclear symbols, the inside >was >foam cradling one bullet. I repaint the ammo case, including conspicuous trefoils and stencil things on the case like: DANGER! RADIOLOGICAL MATERIALS! DANGER! MUNITIONS, ANTIARMOR, NUCLEAR FISSION (COMPRESSION), CALIFORNIUM, M1999A1E3 SEE SCHEDULE 31A-666-32B (REV. 2) FOR ACCESS PARAMETERS AUTHORIZED ACCESS ONLY IF YOU ARE CLOSE ENOUGH TO READ THESE WARNINGS, YOU HAD BETTER HAVE PROPER CLEARANCE! IN EVENT OF CASE BREACH CONSULT DOD TM 1928-3Q (REV. ED) & DOE HAZMAT (RAD) TH-X1138 STORE IN A COOL, DRY PLACE The round, of course, is standard 7.62mm NATO ball ammo, with a purple stripe of acrylic paint hand-applied a bit aft of the pointy end. >They loaded a (M-14?) with the round while giving >an explanation of it's construction that sounded very much like the >Californium model, and fired at a car chassis very far away which blowed up >good. Blowed up real good. This is because Sarge firing the M-14 is the prearranged signal to CPL Marvin "The Martian" Boomer, the inconspicuous fellow over there who brought out the test vehicle and made sure the range was clear... On this signal, Boomer pushes the Red Button (tm) on the inconspicuous Black Box (tm) (labeled "Explosive Space Modulator") in front of him, closing the circuit and sending voltage down the firing wires he buried prior to the class' arrival. This triggers the electric detonators for the Composition 4 he planted in the vehicle after he parked it out there on the range... There is a Kaboom (tm) -- a Vehicle-Shattering Kaboom! The troops are suitably impressed! Any foreign agents that hear about this are suitably impressed! The Evil Empire (tm) works frantically to develop countermeasures to a nonexistent weapon! (I wonder how many other super-weapons have been misdirection and misinformation (at least at first)? Although you've got to watch this -- you might accidentally push the Threat forces into developing something very useful that would otherwise have never occurred to them...):) > >Mark McFadden > I believe my friend saw what he saw. I also suspect the range instructors >really enjoy doing that demo for much the same reason I would. > Yes, this one sounds like something I would enjoy watching (or giving)! Lends a whole new meaning to the term "demo"!:) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com "Being disintegrated makes me angry! Very angry indeed!" -- Marvin the Martian ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of gothedhel [galador@jazzfree.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 2:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: RE: Re: Delta Green not horror? ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Allison To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 3:46 PM Subject: DG: Re: Delta Green not horror? > As far as most of the mythos being put behind the scenes, I think that is > neccesary for a modern setting to work - the greater part of the setting > must seem normal (i.e. real) in order for the elements of horror to be > really effective. If there were too many monsters running about, then the > sense of the workd being real would be lost, and so I think players would be > more likely to react to them more like they would in a fantasy game, say. > DG's moving the monsters out of the limelight, and highlighting instead mans > inhumanity to man (IMHO) was exactly the right thing to do for a game hoping > to create a credible modern day horror background. I also think that while > it is a move away from the way HPL wrote in the 20s, it may not be too far > removed from what he might write if he were writing now - which is what I > personally try (largely unsuccessfully I fear!) to achieve for when running > games of DG / CoC Now. > > Steve > -- > Stephen Allison > sallison@netcomuk.co.uk Excellent analysis of this matter. I agree on everything you said. The first time I ran a CoC game, a lot of time ago I failed because I used Mythos with less restraint -and you are right, my players started behaving as if they were playing AD&D- so when I read DG chapter about Mythos on the 90īs I couldnīt help buying this sourcebook... Gothedhel From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of gothedhel [galador@jazzfree.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 2:24 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Some questions ****lurk mode off**** Just some questions. Question One: I have a player who wants to have -hell knows why- "Snake" as his code name. May I assign him this sort of reptilian codename or is he supposed to be called "Sam", "Sean" or other human common name? I havenīt found an explicit restriction in DG sourcebook, but every NPC has an English proper name as his/her codename, so I wonder if that could be accepted. II donīt want to be visited by THEM so Iīd rather label the following as KEEPERS ONLY. Question Two: Iīve depicted DG as a truly mysterious -even sinister- conspiracy. I think game is more interesting that way, but my players are rather paranoid and they are always devising new odd methods to find out the truth behind DG; for example, one of them -a master hacker- is trying to track DG messages to its source using the many resources he has at his disposal -working at puzzle palace has some advantages after all. How would Cell A react? Perhaps they deserve something like this... Adam: Why dontīt we wipe out cell S? Alphonse: What?! Are you telling me they succeeded at that last suicide mission? Question Three:One of my players was discovered by MJ-12, but I have allowed him to live and remain as the man MJ-3 manipulates whenever he needs some info on Greys without risking the Accord or to act against some people from Steering Committee. In some ways, it works like Cigarette- Smoking Man/Mulder relationship, you know. The character remains as an useful asset for MJ, but as he continues working for DG and spoils other MJ ops, what could be the limits to that situation? In other words, when do you think it would be necessary for MJ-3 to take this character out of the play? Any suggestions? Gothedhel ***lurk mode on *** From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Deirdre M. Brooks [xenya@teleport.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 2:55 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Eat the Immortals Andy Robertson wrote: > > More or less. That doesn't mean he could not "lie immortal" by human > standards - existing for millions or billions of years - but the end of the > thing we call Cthulhu will come, some time. > Death, even for Him. I don't know. I'm not even certain that the laws of physics as humanity observes them exists beyond Yuggoth's orbit, or that they apply to the Great Old Ones (or the Outer Gods, or what-have-you). The existence of time travel seems to defy some of those laws of physics, after all (through psychic means via the Great Race, or the gate spell, etc). Aside from all that, I'm not sure what comfort PCs could draw from "Even Cthulhu will die in seven billion years." -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:01 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Some Questions Greetings. Looks like resident lurker Gothedhel (cheers, out there!) has some of my same problems. <<<< Question Two: Iīve depicted DG as a truly mysterious -even sinister- conspiracy. I think game is more interesting that way, but my players are rather paranoid and they are always devising new odd methods to find out the truth behind DG; for example, one of them -a master hacker- is trying to track DG messages to its source using the many resources he has at his disposal -working at puzzle palace has some advantages after all. How would Cell A react? >>>> I have a smartass like that in my team, too. And that's just the kind of stunt he'd love to pull - but as long as I'm assigning characters randomly, he'll _never_ get a hacker (casuality is good as long as you learn to handle it ). [and before the righteous MiB starts again ranting about my typical reinassance Italian lack of gaming morals - the day he'll come to our games as early as the rest of the gang, he'll be able to draw his own character as he sees fit. But as long as he keeps coming with one hour of delay, he gets what the team has to spare.] This said, I'd work like this first - consider if the guy succeeding in his attempts is something that would make the game progress or die. If tracing the messages spoils the mystery, the guy will not make it. And that's it. second - but why be cruel? If he does not make it, he can still not make it in a funny and even _useful_ way. Have him tracing the mails to the most baffling locations, including (obviously) his own computer (messages sent when he was not in). Make him more paranoid. Also, his tracing efforts could be great scenario hooks - he thinks he's got Alphonse nailed, while he's actually been sneaking in a SaucerWatch server. third - in my game, Cell A would ignore his efforts as long as they are not a danger to the whole network's security. Should his work become a liability, see under 'Andrea'. On the other hand, an 'accident' suddenly killing the hacker could increase the team's paranoia towards their masters.... It's hard. Maybe the best tactics is to hand him something bigger and more suspicious to play with. After all, trying to hack the old DG network might well land him in the ICE CAVE - and MJ might not like getting a nosy parker in its pong machines.... >Perhaps they deserve something like this... > >Adam: Why dontīt we wipe out cell S? >Alphonse: What?! Are you telling me they succeeded at that last suicide mission? This one is nice, yes. After all in a business like this, you get the trust that you deserve. A modicum of paranoia is probably commendable, but too much might spoil the game. Should the team demonstrate they can do their job with the best, maybe Alphonse will show them the benign side of Delta Green.... ;> Just some random thoughts. Happy gaming. Heck, no... sorry, forgot this is supposed tobe a horror..... Ok, Ok, forget about it.... Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Deirdre M. Brooks [xenya@teleport.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Big C vs The Laws of Thermodynamics Andy Robertson wrote: > > As for big C. vs the Laws of Thermodynamics - I don't think you get to break > the laws of Thermodynamics until you reach the level of YOG-SOTHOTH or > AZATHOTH. CTHULHU is not, I would say, anywhere near that. "Onlie the liveliest awfulness." > Of course I have no evidence to support this: take it as a madman's guess. -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:21 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Some questions On 5 April, 2000 AD, graemep@immagene.mcg.edu (Graeme Price) says (in relation to nuclear rounds and Class Delta Fires): >>One, is there really such a thing as a nuclear > >bullet? > >My take: theoretically possible, but technically non-feasible. Of course, >it depends on the calibre weapon you fire it out of ("This sounds like a >job for USS Iowa!"). Interesting you should mention the "Iowa"...:) During the Cold War, the Mk 23 nuclear shell was developed for the 16 inch naval rifles mounted in the "Iowa" BBs. (The following is collected mostly from "US Nuclear Weapons: The Secret History", by Chuck Hansen, 1988 (ISBN 0-517-56740-7), and "US Naval Weapons", by Norman Friedman, 1982, Naval Institute Press (ISBN 0-87021-735-6).) At the end of December, 1953, the DOD's Military Liason Committee (MLC) forwarded development requirements for a 16 inch Navy projectile (codenamed KATIE) to the AEC's Division of Military Application (DMA). (A 16 inch nuclear shell was originally intended for use by the Army's Coast Artillery Corps just before it went out of existence in the summer of 1952.) Final approval of the Mk 23 took place in July 1955, and stockpiling began in October 1956. Approximately 50 were manufactured, and all were retired by October 1962. One Mk 23 Mod 1 projectile was modified in the summer of 1961 (during the nuclear test moratorium) for use as a "peaceful" nuclear device in Project PLOWSHARE. The Mk 23 projectile weighed 1,900 lbs (about the same as the USN's standard 16 inch High Capacity shell), and was 64 inches long and 16 inches in diameter. Yield was reported at "15-20 KT". While the Mk 23 was reportedly test-fired from a stationary 16 inch gun at the nuclear test range in the western US (I remember seeing a photo someplace of that test-firing), I've seen a few reports suggesting that a "live" firing test was conducted in the Pacific by the "Iowa" class BB "Wisconsin". (Makes you wonder if this was really a test, or if some Mythos critter on a South Pacific island rated a 15-20 KT visit from the United States Navy sometime between 1956 and 1962? Hopefully, the DG team got off the island before the shell landed...) >Reminds me of the old Travellers cartoon in WD, where >Mad Gavin the ex-marine produces a similar-ish weapon and pronounces "The >atomic handgrenade. Great weapon. Now all they need is someone who can >throw it 25 miles." There was another Traveller Nuclear Hand Grenade cartoon in SJG's "The Space Gamer", back in the 80s. It showed a starship, with everything aft of the bridge blown away. In the bridge window, we see three men -- two rather surprised because the rest of their ship is no longer attached to the nose section, and the third man grinning maniacally. Caption: "So you say you stopped the hijackers with a nuclear hand grenade?" At least two US nuclear weapon systems (both now retired) may have qualified for the coveted Nuclear Hand Grenade Award: The US Army's XM-388 "Davey Crockett" nuclear weapon (250 ton yield, for the 120mm XM-28 recoilless rifle) was said to have a damage radius somewhat larger than the weapon's range of 6,500 feet... The USN's Mark 45 ASTOR (Antisubmarine Torpedo), with a 10-mile range and a 15 KT warhead, was reputed to have a Kill Probability of "2.0" -- target vessel and launching vessel! > > > Two, a while back there was a discussion of a very, very, very > >flammable chemical. Water made it's fires worse, etc. I would like to >know > >more about this. > >There are plenty of chemicals whose fires get much, much worse when you add >water. Gasoline for example (for those who can't be bothered to think why, >oil products float on water.... water will thus only spread them out more). >Reactive metal fires get worse when you add water (indeed really reactive >metals will burst into flames on contact with water - potassium, sodium >etc.) Fun stuff, sodium... I remember reading, years ago, of an incident involving sodium and water, back in the naiive early 50s, when the US was still dumping some of its nuclear waste at sea... The materials to be dumped from the wooden barge, towed behind a harbor tug, were relatively lightweight items, and the sailor in charge of the op was heaving them over the side into Deep One territory, when one of the last items, a metal canister, wouldn't sink. It was mildly radioactive sodium from some unknown experiment, and was buoyant enough to remain afloat. Deciding this would never do, the sailor picked up a rifle (kept handy in case of sharks going after a man overboard), and began plinking away at the canister, figuring he could hole and sink it. Unfortunately, the sailor was a good shot. The punctured canister hissed and bubbled, then (with the reacting water and sodium substituting for rocket thrust, venting out through the holes) began traveling through the water like a torpedo! Unfortunately, this was a torpedo without all those fancy Anti Circular Run and Run To Enable safety widgets I described in one of my earlier posts, and it charged straight for the barge! Bravely, our hero emptied his rifle into the oncoming accidental torpedo, to no avail. Making a very rapid Estimate of the Situation, he concluded his position was untenable, and conducted a rapid Abandon Ship evolution, just before the canister struck the barge amidships, burst open, and set fire to the wooden barge (which burned to the waterline). The sailor was fished out of the water by the tug crew. It is not recorded whether he wished to (or was permitted to) re-enlist when his hitch was up... >I beleive magnesium alloy fires (if you get them hot enough) will >react the oxygen out of water and use this to burn (hint to naval >architects: not good to use in ships), but my chemistry is surprisingly >rusty for a career biologist. I remember much the same thing... Luckily, magnesium plate is much harder to ignite than a magnesium strip. (Like lighting a large log directly, compared to igniting tinder...) It isn't as major a design consideration as you might think in warships -- the lightweight materials of choice for superstructures seem to be aluminum, and various plastics. (And, contrary to what you sometimes read, HMS "Sheffield"'s superstructure didn't catch fire when she was hit by an Exocet in the Falklands -- instead, parts of it melted, after prolonged exposure to high temparatures...) But even sheet magnesium will apparently ignite under the right conditions -- I recall photos of a B-36 crash (in Squadron Publications' "B-36 in Action"), after the crash crew had put out the fire, in which the magnesium sections of the aircraft were conspicuous by their absence. (In fact the caption for one of the photos mentions this fact...) >The one to really worry about though is (IIRC >and I probably don't) ruthenium which when it burns will react the oxygen >out of carbon dioxide... embarrassing if you only have a CO2 fire >extinguisher! Most metal fires can do bad things if you add water though. >It depends on several factors (how hot the metal is, surface area - powder >fires being a whole different ball game - etc). Anyway, there _must_ be >someone more physical chemistry minded on the list... Technically, I think these are considered Class D fires -- burning metal. IIRC, while specialized extinguishing agents exist for such fires, these are expensive and rare, and the usual method of dealing with such blazes is to set fire boundaries, prevent secondary ignitions, and let it burn itself out! Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:39 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Some questions Good Evening. And welcome gothedhel. gothedhel schrieb: > ****lurk mode off**** > > Just some questions. > Question One: I have a player who wants to have -hell knows why- "Snake" as > his code name. May I assign him this sort of reptilian codename or is he > supposed to be called "Sam", "Sean" or other human common name? I havenīt > found an explicit restriction in DG sourcebook, but every NPC has an English > proper name as his/her codename, so I wonder if that could be accepted. Pfffhhh. Good question. As a keeper I'd prefer the use of the common name to keep the mood. If you begin with letting them call themselves "Snake" in S-Cell, they might come up with "Terror", "Thunder" and "Transvetite" in T-cell. On the other hand: If it is SO IMPORTANT for him, well, it does not necessarily have to ruin the game. At least he does not demand a STR of 22, if you know what I mean. Though I'd prefer to stick to the tradition. But if he needs some code name that sounds vicious, well he migh call himself "Sid" [ har, har ] > > II donīt want to be visited by THEM so Iīd rather label the following as > KEEPERS ONLY. > > > > > > > > > > > Question Two: Iīve depicted DG as a truly mysterious -even sinister- > conspiracy. I think game is more interesting that way, but my players are > rather paranoid and they are always devising new odd methods to find out the > truth behind DG; for example, one of them -a master hacker- is trying to > track DG messages to its source using the many resources he has at his > disposal -working at puzzle palace has some advantages after all. > How would Cell A react? Perhaps they deserve something like this... > > Adam: Why dontīt we wipe out cell S? > Alphonse: What?! Are you telling me they succeeded at that last suicide > mission? Another good question, young man. First: Investigating the conspiracy you're in might very well make a pretty interesting topic for your campaign. Good idea. But your question was: How would Cell A react? I'd say: That depends. Killing the Agents would probably not be the first choice. BUT: If the "investigating" Agent would pose a real threat to the conspiracy -by finding out the real identities of other cells, for example- killing him might well be a way to avoid complete desaster. But back to your campaign: Your player tries to hack himself into the secrets of DG, if I may simplify it. If I were the keeper in this campaign, therefore: If I were you, I would think of the following: First alternative: Just not let him succeed! He may well be a "master hacker", but, hey, there is alway somebody that is better than you. Let him try, but not let him succeed. After the, let's say 67th failure he might well be convinced that DG REALLY is a big affair. I mean: They seem to have better computer experts than he thinks himself to be. Second alternative: Let him have minor successes. Let him find out the identities of another cell. But unfortunately MJ-12 watches his efforts and therefore finds out these identities as well. And so: A couple of days later your player is informed about the strange "accidental" deaths of a couple of people in government agencies [ the identified cell ]. This might very well give him something to think about. And - of course - A-Cell also has come up with some thoughts about this affair. And if they identified your player as the problem...well, they will have to do something. Just what they consider is up to the style of your campaign. You said that in your campaign DG is very sinister. Thus, killing a traitor might be absolutely perfect for A-Cell. But there might as well be a less lethal way to convince this man to stop what he does: Let A-Cell contact him and warn him that he might end up bound and gagged in the Hudson river. Or have him stopped / Make his life difficult in a more discrete manner: DG has IRS agents! > > Question Three:One of my players was discovered by MJ-12, but I have allowed > him to live and remain as the man MJ-3 manipulates whenever he needs some > info on Greys without risking the Accord or to act against some people from > Steering Committee. In some ways, it works like Cigarette- Smoking > Man/Mulder relationship, you know. The character remains as an useful asset > for MJ, but as he continues working for DG and spoils other MJ ops, what > could be the limits to that situation? In other words, when do you think it > would be necessary for MJ-3 to take this character out of the play? > > Any suggestions? It's a bit like what I said above concerning the DG-"traitor". But after all MJ-12 is an even more ruthless organisation. Therefore MJ-12 might choose the lethal way much quicker. Hope I could help, ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:52 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions Davide Mana schrieb: > Greetings. > > Looks like resident lurker Gothedhel (cheers, out there!) has some of my > same problems. > > <<<< Question Two: Iīve depicted DG as a truly mysterious -even sinister- > conspiracy. I think game is more interesting that way, but my players are > rather paranoid and they are always devising new odd methods to find out > the truth behind DG; for example, one of them -a master hacker- is trying > to track DG messages to its source using the many resources he has at his > disposal -working at puzzle palace has some advantages after all. > How would Cell A react? >>>> > > I have a smartass like that in my team, too. > And that's just the kind of stunt he'd love to pull - but as long as I'm > assigning characters randomly, he'll _never_ get a hacker (casuality is > good as long as you learn to handle it ). > > [and before the righteous MiB starts again ranting about my typical > reinassance Italian lack of gaming morals - the day he'll come to our games > as early as the rest of the gang, he'll be able to draw his own character > as he sees fit. But as long as he keeps coming with one hour of delay, he > gets what the team has to spare.] AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! I am gone for three months and you STILL assign characters randomly!?!?!?!? Where's the MiB when you really need him? > > This said, I'd work like this [snip] > If he does not make it, he can still not make it in a funny and even > _useful_ way. > Have him tracing the mails to the most baffling locations, including > (obviously) his own computer (messages sent when he was not in). > Make him more paranoid. > Also, his tracing efforts could be great scenario hooks - he thinks he's > got Alphonse nailed, while he's actually been sneaking in a SaucerWatch > server. Or even more harmless: Amazon.com or some Sex-Site. I would really love to see a wild bunch of PCs appear at the headquarters of Amazon.com armed to their teeth, accusing its chairman of being the head of some conspciracy. And what if A-Cell lead the PCs' investigations into the server of the "White House" making them think that a young female White House intern is in fact Agent Alphonse... ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:56 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions Greetings, Glad you brought this up. I have always had a problem with players wanting to play hackers in my game. The problems are that; a) Players tend to want to use hacking the way D&D 20th level mages use magic...as the solution to EVERYTHING. b) Most of them know more about computers than I do. In short they tend to use hacking as a skill check where they ought to have to THINK and ROLE PLAY. For a long while I avoided this by running 1920s campaigns but Delta Green is too much fun for me to do that now. I've been insisting that the government will always be 5 years behind on hacking state of the art techniques because the maverick types are the cutting edge hackers. Any thoughts on this problem?? Phil Posehn On Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:01:00 +0200 Davide Mana writes: > Greetings. > > Looks like resident lurker Gothedhel (cheers, out there!) has some > of my > same problems. > > > I have a smartass like that in my team, too. > And that's just the kind of stunt he'd love to pull - but as long as > I'm > assigning characters randomly, he'll _never_ get a hacker (casuality > is > good as long as you learn to handle it ). > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 4:28 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Threshold for Real Life Horror In a message dated 4/6/00 6:24:08 AM Central Daylight Time, daf@iwa.att.ne.jp writes: << Yes, I think it can, although it's not the style of horror RPGing that I like to play these days. OTOH, I wouldn't want to drop a bunch of newcomers into the pot right away--let them get into it a bit. (By newcomers, I mean new to RPGs, not just horror gaming.) And if they don't like the horror after a while, we move on to something else. No shame in that--I just want to have fun with my friends. >> Yeah! Put the turtle in the stew pot full of room temp water - then turn on the fire! Run a pool for when he guesses that he IS dinner. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 4:29 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pocket nukes In a message dated 4/8/00 11:57:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, theherald@hotmail.com writes: << You know, with prearrangement (through appropriate connections), I could probably conduct this demo without resorting to nuclear warheads... >> Very good, Mr. Layne. I commend you for your insight and creativity. Bask in the knowledge that you have penetrated through the subterfuge and found the truth. I am impressed. My organization could use a man of your calibre, perhaps a place could be found for you - and those you care for, of course. I must think on this.... [a Pinteresque pause] Naaaaah. Dexter, Sinister - chew on Mr. Layne until he begs for death. Dr. Bendtgender, remove the lubrication from his joints and inject him with anti-endorphins. You, the dwarf in the butler suit, whatever your name is, arrange for transportation. Rondo, scenario...mmmmm...17 I think. Ketamine and adrenochrone, you and Mr. Blonde go Bronze Age on his ass all the way to: DETROIT!!!! You have our gratitude. Mark McFadden Notice the subtle way in which I gave you hope and then pulled the rug out from under you. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 4:31 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: GHOSTS IN THE MACHINE was Re: DG: From the weird news In a message dated 4/7/00 4:19:08 PM Central Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << But on the other hand - people claims they can get messages from 'somewhere else' (possibly the aftrelife) by tuning a radio-recorder on a dead channel. [I should have a book on the subject hereabouts....] Why not the Web? >> The little girl in Poltergeist - television Fuzz - white light - "They're Heeeerrreeeeee", automatic writing, radio fuzz all are techniques of psychic communication - do they work - the jury is still out. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 5:33 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions Greetings some more. It's gonna be a long night. Phil writes.... >I have always had a problem with players wanting to play hackers in my >game. The problems are that; >a) Players tend to want to use hacking the way D&D 20th level mages use >magic...as the solution to EVERYTHING. >b) Most of them know more about computers than I do. Same here. My resident munchkin is the kind that as soon as he has an old Amiga and a network connection goes for satellites and tries to manage everything from home - from surveillance to attacks through orbital laser. The old 'Giant/dwarf crossbreed fighter/mage/thief raised by elven ninjas' problem. I hate munchkins. >In short they tend to use hacking as a skill check where they ought to >have to THINK and ROLE PLAY. For a long while I avoided this by running >1920s campaigns but Delta Green is too much fun for me to do that now. My forthcoming (hopefully) steampunk conspiracy game will feature hackers in not one, not two but thre different forms . telegraph hackers . pneumatic post hackers (a real life-threatening activity!) . urban hackers (people that know the network of shortcuts and passages in large cities) My players will be baffled. >I've been insisting that the government will always be 5 years behind on >hacking state of the art techniques because the maverick types are the >cutting edge hackers. > >Any thoughts on this problem?? First, very generic thought - keep in mind that hacking is not the hot-shot superpower they read in Gibson novels. We have a few experts on line (Alex, are you there?), but I guess that taking control over the security system or the elevators in the building by simply crashing through the company maniframe is a bit of fantasy, at least in most cases. So what? AFAIK, by hacking you can . check activities on remote machines (who used a certain account or terminal, when) . check/steal files stored on remote machines (credit card accounts etc) So, in theory, you can trace the whereabouts of Mr Lepus by knowing when he last used his Gold Mastercard. But to do this you have to . know that Mr Lepus has a Mastercard . know that the name on Lepus' Mastercard is 'Lepus' or 'Smith' or whatever . get the Mastercard files and then search them In the same vein, to access the latest specifics of Doktor Price Exploding Lawn Concotion (Pat. Pending), you have to . know what you are looking for . know on which computer of which institute Herr Doktor has his data stored (always admitting it's a machine connected to the local network and not a dead turtle) . get in there find and copy the files Also, notice that, as Doktor Price's new Devilish Invention seems to be based on modified bacteria, the doc will probably refer you back to a certain culture in a certain storage area. I have found that in most cases when my resident munchkin/hacker says 'I go and get the data', asking him to be more precise is a good way to stop him dead. What is he looking for? Where is he gonna find it? How's he gonna search for it? Exactly like when you are ransacking a desk, you must know what you are looking for in order to find it. Incidentally - I always wondered why, when my 1920s investigator says 'I check the bookshelf for weird books' he should consider 'The Revelations of Glaaki' weirder than 'The Hand of Ethelberta'.... You have to have at least a faint idea of what you are looking for. And faint ideas can be misleading. Getting the files, however, is just the first step. They could be crypted or - even better - crypted AND steganographed, that is, hidden inside another file. Cracking cyphers is not that easy - it requires power to crunch thenumbers, and time. And with steganographed files, again you have to know what you are looking for. In other words, real life hacking is a frustrating, time consuming activity. Play it like that. And should the simple application of common sense fail, you can use the strongest weapon of them all: human stupidity. OK, true story.... One of my players is a computer troubleshooter and a drop-out from physics - you can imagine the kind of headaches he might cause me (but he's a good one). Anyway, one day he is called by a client whose system has completely gone bonkers - system shot, peripherals undetected, the usual general mess. He gets there, realizes the thing's hopeless and so asks for the backup discs. 'Because you did backups, right?' They laugh. Of course they did. What does he think they are, amateurs? They _work_ with this machines, what the heck! So yes, they backed up the system on a number of 3.1/2 disks. Then they punched holes through the disks and stored them away in a ring binder. In other words: never underestimate human stupidity when dealing with computers. Players can be smarter than you and a lot more informed, but you can always find a way to nail them through sheer incompetence/sillyness/weirdness of their victim. I've seen people leave the data for their colleagues and students attached to the computer's case with a strawberry-shaped fridge magnet. I've known a guy that found simply silly to label his disks and give his files anything but a progressive number. And what about the guy that's left the fax machine hooked to the phone line of the modem? But here I better stop and leave the stage to peoplemore adept at the hacking arts than I am. Good night! Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 5:38 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions Cheers! Eckhard is flabbergasted! > >AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! >I am gone for three months and you STILL assign characters randomly!?!?!?!? Not only so - but my next game will probably see all male players handling female characters and all female players handling male characters. It will be a R.E. Howard-style sword&sorcery. Definitely a one shot. And it will _not_ be politically correct, I fear (knowing the guys). We still try and see all this as a game, you see.... Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 6:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions Greetings Again, And welcome to David who always supplies some of the more thought provoking posts. Thanks for the thoughtful response! Have you given any thought to giving your steam punk hackers a difference machine? (evil chuckle) In regard to your examples of player use of hacking, I simply must share this anecdote... In the last 90s CoC campaign I ran my players had followed the suspected cultist to one of the large generic hotels that American airport neighborhoods are known for. I called it the " Hyatt-Regency ThunderHilton". The problem was nobody entered the hotel until after he was on his way up in one of the elevators. My pet munchkin immediately described in loving detail how he was jacking his laptop into the wall and hacking into the hotel's registration computer, the Mastercard database, and God knows what else. After about 10 minutes I finally threw up my hands in exasperation and asked him, "Why don't you just slip the bell captain a $20 bill?" Anyone else have cybermunchkin stories? Phil Posehn On Sun, 09 Apr 2000 00:32:51 +0200 Davide Mana writes: > Greetings some more. > > It's gonna be a long night. > > > My forthcoming (hopefully) steampunk conspiracy game will feature > hackers > in not one, not two but thre different forms > > . telegraph hackers > . pneumatic post hackers (a real life-threatening activity!) > . urban hackers (people that know the network of shortcuts and > passages in > large cities) > > My players will be baffled. > > So, in theory, you can trace the whereabouts of Mr Lepus by knowing > when he > last used his Gold Mastercard. > But to do this you have to > . know that Mr Lepus has a Mastercard > . know that the name on Lepus' Mastercard is 'Lepus' or 'Smith' or > whatever > . get the Mastercard files and then search them > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Anthony Baxter [anthony@interlink.com.au] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 9:19 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: more on monte cassino... http://www.theage.com.au/news/20000409/A56998-2000Apr8.html Slip-up in translation led to Italian monastery's bombing By JOHN EZARD LONDON Sunday 9 April 2000 The world's most glorious monastery, at Monte Cassino in Italy, was destroyed during World War II because of a mistake by a British junior officer, according to new evidence in a book. The officer - translating an intercepted radio message - mistook the German word for abbot for a similar word meaning battalion. His version convinced his superiors this meant a German military unit was using the monastery as its command post, in breach of a Vatican agreement which treated it as neutral. -- Anthony Baxter It's never too late to have a happy childhood. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:01 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Eat the Immortals ----- Original Message ----- From: Deirdre M. Brooks > Aside from all that, I'm not sure what comfort PCs could draw from "Even > Cthulhu will die in seven billion years." > Not a mere 7 billion years. More like the time the last black hole evaporates. I will treat the slanderous accusation that I was offering "comfort" with the disdain it deserves. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nathaniel Gorham [ngorham@cris.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:58 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: OT: Mailreader question Hello all, sorry for bothering you all with an OT post, but I have some strange behavior going on over here and I though that someone else reading this might have some experience with. I'm using outlook express as my mailreader, and for some reason all the replies to the list messages get sorted in with the R's instead of with the message they were in reply to. Now this seems like a natural thing to happen (the message does begin with "Re" after all), but the thing is that it only happens to me with the dgrpg list. I'm subscribed to a handful of other mailing lists and they keep their original messages and replies together, so I was wondering if anyone else has similar mailreader behavior on their end, if they fixed it and how did they fix it? -Nathaniel Gorham- From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:55 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Big C vs The Laws of Thermodynamics On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:13:10 +0100 "Andy Robertson" writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > > > Don't you mean the Laws of Thermodynamics as we understand them to > be? > > Isn't the Mythos all about finding out that our little cherished > beliefs > > are ultimately wrong? > > > > > Well, was not immortality in a heavenly afterlife a cherished > belief? > > And was it not destroyed, by science? Let's just not get into that debate, okay? > > Therefore Science = The Mythos? Or at least they are kin. > > Maybe, say I. > > This is an old debate which has not been resolved and maybe never > can be at > our level of understanding. > > If you remember the Gates thread - the debate there was very > similar. I am only recently returned to the list, I must have missed that thread. I'll check the Icecave for it. > > ----- ***** ----- > > > Some of us understand Science this way. "Science" is a little > house we > have constructed over our heads with erztaz local materials, and > the > monsters are stalking about. When they tread on it, squelch. > > Some of us understand Science this way. Humanity huddles in a > cave. > "Science" is the view out of that cave. Through Science, we see > some of > the outside - vaguely and innacurately. Beyond what we see, the > Mythos > looms. I see science this way (and I believe many scientists do also since I got it from scientists); We go out of the cave and look around, then we go back to the cave and draw pictures of things we saw on the walls. When the pictures prove to be inaccurate, we draw new ones. One day we will re-draw those too. Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Cc: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pocket nukes > There is a Kaboom (tm) -- a Vehicle-Shattering Kaboom! > > The troops are suitably impressed! > > Any foreign agents that hear about this are suitably impressed! > The > Evil Empire (tm) works frantically to develop countermeasures to a > nonexistent weapon! > Richard Marcinko writes in his autobigraphical book, _Rogue Warrior_, that he chose the name "SEAL Team Six," when at the time there were only two existing SEAL teams, because he wanted the Russians to wonder what Teams 3, 4, and 5 were up to. Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Deirdre M. Brooks [xenya@teleport.com] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:27 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Eat the Immortals Andy Robertson wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Deirdre M. Brooks > > Aside from all that, I'm not sure what comfort PCs could draw from "Even > > Cthulhu will die in seven billion years." > > > > Not a mere 7 billion years. More like the time the last black hole > evaporates. Ah, that clarifies it. > I will treat the slanderous accusation that I was offering "comfort" with > the disdain it deserves. I think I snorted Dr. Pepper through my nose when I read this. I hope that was your intent. :-) -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 12:22 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Big fires ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Layne > > But even sheet magnesium will apparently ignite under the right > conditions -- I recall photos of a B-36 crash (in Squadron Publications' > "B-36 in Action"), after the crash crew had put out the fire, in which the > magnesium sections of the aircraft were conspicuous by their absence. (In > fact the caption for one of the photos mentions this fact...) Combining nitrogen and oxygen to get nitrous oxide is an exenthalpic reaction. That means the whole atmosphere could in theory get set alight, and "burn" into a combination of nitrogen and nitrous oxides. This was a minor but real concern when the first nuke was set off. Fortunately the energy disperses too quickly to keep the temperature high enough for the reaction to continue. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 12:26 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip A Posehn > a) Players tend to want to use hacking the way D&D 20th level mages use > magic...as the solution to EVERYTHING. > b) Most of them know more about computers than I do. > Tell them to really hack a real site. If they do it in real life, they've done it in the game. If they decline for moral or legal reasons, no problem. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 5:12 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Nice Maps Good Morning. If you're interested in good detailed maps [ in .pdf format ] for your campaigns, try the United Nations Homepage. They do not only have maps of every country but also maps featuring different topics like UN Peace Keeping missions: http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/htmain.htm ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steve Allison [sallison@netcomuk.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 7:18 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions > I've been insisting that the government will always be 5 years behind on > hacking state of the art techniques because the maverick types are the > cutting edge hackers. Governmental worrying about computer security is just a show. Any govenrment worth its salt transmits anything really worth knowing using direct mind-to-mind encrypted telepathy these days. steve From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steve Allison [sallison@netcomuk.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 7:22 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Nice Maps More nice maps for UK list members can be found on the cd that comes with the sunday times today. There's a large number of satellite and aerial photographs of the UK. The detail in the satellite photos (mainly Landsat) isn't as good as I'd have hoped, but the images are still pretty good. There are also various environmental images too, light-pollution, land use and so on. Potentially useful for anyone wanting imagery intelligence of the UK. Also acts as a reminder as to how damn *hard* interpreting the images is, I could harldy find the *town* where I (used to) live, let alone the road... respect due to all image-int types. steve -- Stephen Allison sallison@netcomuk.co.uk From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steve Allison [sallison@netcomuk.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 7:39 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Some Questions > > a) Players tend to want to use hacking the way D&D 20th level mages use > > magic...as the solution to EVERYTHING. > > b) Most of them know more about computers than I do. Something to bear in mind with hacker types is that Hacking Is Hard. Despite all the press about how shoddy security is on the net, most hacks exploit a few very well known security holes in a few widely used products. Hacking a previously unseen/unkown program requires alot of work; protocols will have to be discovered, any weak points in the server software established, and software will have to be written and so on, i.e its a time consuming process. And all the time the hacker risks being noticed by the systems administrator who could easily get rid of the hacker once he beomes aware. Also, governments and so on *will* have very good experts. Really important systems aren't connected to the net anyway, certainly GCHQ runs a secure internal network, and the only way to get data to/from the internet aware network to the secure system is by disk (and even *that* is subject to various checks). steve -- Stephen Allison sallison@netcomuk.co.uk From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Chris Pencis [cpencis@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 11:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Nice Maps Don't suppose there'd be a spot someone could point us to which might have the same data available online... for those of us colonial cousins? Chris --- Steve Allison wrote: > More nice maps for UK list members can be found on the cd that comes > with > the sunday times today. There's a large number of satellite and aerial > photographs of the UK. The detail in the satellite photos (mainly > Landsat) > isn't as good as I'd have hoped, but the images are still pretty good. > There are also various environmental images too, light-pollution, land > use > and so on. Potentially useful for anyone wanting imagery intelligence > of > the UK. Also acts as a reminder as to how damn *hard* interpreting the > images is, I could harldy find the *town* where I (used to) live, let > alone > the road... respect due to all image-int types. > > steve > > -- > Stephen Allison > sallison@netcomuk.co.uk > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Chris Pencis [cpencis@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 12:06 PM To: Delta Green Subject: DG: DG-FAQ: a second source Looks like someone on the web may have beaten the MIB to the punch. http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Systems/Call_of_Cthulhu/Delta_Green/faq.html#19 I don't recognize the author from the list (please stand and be recognized!) Of course, it doesn't have the MIB's style and 'grace' Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Til Eulenspiegel [duggerj@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 1:38 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: True-Life Tale of Terror The Strange Case of Dr. Ford _The Reported Facts_ 1970s: Larry Ford survives attack at UCLA Medical School. Assailant fires several bullets into his chest, but cassette tapes deflect them. Attacker never found. 1982: Dr. Ford and James Patrick Riley begin business partnership: Ford as scientist, Riley as financial manager. Company eventually becomes Biofem, Inc. 28 Feb 00: James Patrick Riley shot in face by masked gunman outside Biofem, Inc. offices. Dr. Larry Ford, 49-year-old gynecologist and Riley's business partner, named as suspect and conspirator with Dino D'Saachs, L.A. businessman. The latter identified as driver of getaway car for gunman. 02 Mar 00: Dr. Ford spends about five hours with his lawyer, and then he returns to Irvine, CA home. Soon afterwards, Mrs. Ford hears a single gunshot. Dr. Larry Ford, found dead in upstairs bedroom with a shotgun and a letter nearby. Ford claims innocence of Riley's murder and fear of being framed for crime. 200 neighbors evacuated for several days while police, HazMat teams, and FBI searched premises. They found ".a cache of military-style weapons buried in his back yard. They also found ammunition underneath a stairwell's false floor, weapons and chemicals in a nearby storage facility, and suspicious vials of unidentified liquids in the family refrigerator." (USA Today, Wed 05 Apr 00) Police questioned wife and three grown children about Ford's links to bio-weapons research and the CIA. Police claimed links suggested by other people questioned, and sought confirmation. Police have no official cause of death, but believe it a suicide. No motive known for Ford to shoot Riley. D'Saachs, 56, remains uncooperative and in custody in Orange County, California jail. Riley recovered, returned to work, and has no suggestions for a motive in his attack. Neil Knobel, former chief medical officer for South Africa, claims Ford well-known in international circles as biological weapons expert. South African cardiologist and biological warfare researcher Wouter Basson, currently on trial for political crimes, is named as Ford's associate and host by Jan D'Oliveria, Basson's head prosecutor. Knobel claims he invited Ford to S.A. and introduced him to Basson. Biofem, Inc. works to develop "a contraceptive product that . would prevent the sexual transmission of disease", and recently received fresh investment money. Reference: USA Today. "Mystery surrounds doctor's life, death." Wednesday, April 5, 2000. Page 27A. _Speculations_ Dr. Ford maintained a Green Box. Police searches revealed it. DG must learn what has been compromised, and react accordingly. Dr. Ford worked for MAJESTIC. He had some knowledge of the COOKBOOK. During the 1980s he worked under the aegis of the CIA in South Africa to (a) field-test recipes, (b) determine whether S.A. had any E.B.E.-derived information, (c) transfer knowledge to S.A.'s government, (d) all of the above, (e) none of the above. Dr. Ford was a DG mole in MAJESTIC. The above scenario applies, but eventually his cover wore thin. The attack on Riley warned him he was under suspicion. Alternatively, Ford planned the attack on Riley to silence those who knew too much. Perhaps MAJESTIC shot Riley to provide an opportunity for mind control techniques/implants/injections. What does Ford's wife know? What does D'Saachs know? Is this exactly what it looks like? A former CIA agent in business or emotional trouble plans murder-suicide. Eager to hear the answers. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 2:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green not horror? Just wanted to throw out some thoughts. I am not attempting to attack anyone or thing in particular or start a flame war, so keep that in mind when you read. Truly not attempting to make anyone mad :) <<>> Here I do see your point but don't completely agree with it. Every piece of fiction, game supplement or campaign is going to have a certain amount of "fluff" added to it, both for realism and because of personal interest. While Lovecraft was no gunfondler and also attempted to live in a bygone age in his own times, he still added his own "fluff" to his stories. His loving detail of architecture, for one, could be interpreted to show some underlying emphasis on human structures or his themes of WASP heroes fighting the good fight could show a predisposition to the white race being the "hope" of the world in the face of the mythos. We have a different kind of "fluff" in our supplements and fiction to both emphasize the times, the settings and the type of sophistication present in the target audience. Adding a level of detail doesn't necessarily add a level of hope or change the underlying themes as long as they are handled correctly by those involved. Not even nuclear weapons will matter in the long run, so the "fluff" doesn't have to change any themes or issues. A character or player that becomes very attached to any piece of equipment still has a rather ineffective tool for dealing with the mythos. It's up to the individual Keeper/author/etc to insure that is imparted. In fact, done properly, it can add to the theme. That nice, shiny piece of equipment should matter and it doesn't. Shown properly, this can destroy hope and show meaninglessness as much as any of Lovecraft's horrors and decay. <<>> Again, the human element is not necessarily the antithesis of Lovecraftian horror because of its focus. First, the setting tends to show humanity entering the last phases of its interaction with the Lovecraftian universe. We have become "as the Great Old Ones" and are writhing in the chaos that brings. We are already over the abyss and don't even see it. We are pushing forward towards the end, thinking it is progress and don't see the decay that is destroying us from within. The human element shows just another face of the mythos and Lovecraftian horror and does not degrade it in any way. The humans that are studied and talked about aren't making a difference in the scheme of things and properly handled should reflect that aspect of the indifference of the universe. Outside of Delta Green, the "anti-mythos" forces (such as Phenom-X, Saucerwatch and The Army of the Third Eye) are just the motes you speak of, small forces making very little impact and waiting to be destroyed by the bigger forces. GRU SV-8 is a microcosm of the decay of human powers and institutions, a group that has fought the good fight and is now losing the inevitable battle. PISCES is a reflection of the corruption of the fight, again the inevitable loss that accompanies the war against the mythos. The organizations that in one way or another serve the mythos (MJ-12, Tiger Transit, The Karotechia, The Fate and so on) show how man will eventually sell-out and succumb to the mythos forces, forces to accelerate our Endtimes in their own way. They are the same pawns Lovecraft has in the Cthulhu Cult and others. Even Delta Green, in spite of the focus on them, if used properly is really that mote. They don't understand what they face and win few victories. Even the victories they win are tempered by their losses and devil's deals. Delta Green is just a modern reflection of the same sort of shadowy group that Lovecraft himself was building up within the halls of Miskatonic. He used an academic network and it wasn't as developed as DG's but it was there nonetheless. Joseph Camp is our Henry Armitage. Wilmarth, Peaslee, Dyer and so on are the "cell" leaders of Lovecraft. Even the way Asenath Waite is hinted at in gaming and fictional sources suggests a DG-Alzis sort of relationship. So, I don't see the focus itself as the problem, instead it is how some might use that focus. It's a mileage may vary sort of equation, the same way that Lovecraft's vision was changed and expanded by the authors themselves that followed. You can easily have a Lovecraftian experience with the setting and focus, or you can view that focus differently and take it in a different direction. That's not bad, just a different POV and not true to the source material as presented. <<>> Again, it is a matter of personal "fluff" and working with the source material. I don't feel that the DG "canon" steps out of Lovecraft's vision significantly. Individuals do put different twists on it, though but you cannot fault the sources for what we do with it. One person may opt for the techno-thriller bend to the campaign and another for pure Lovecraftian vision. Delta Green in and of itself is not horror. It is merely a blueprint for horror. As a gaming/fictional supplement and setting it is absolutely great in this regard. You don't read DG expecting chills on each page. You read it to get a coherent setting for Keepers and authors to explore horror. It is up to the users and inheritors of that setting to stay close to the vision. DG only updates and tweaks the same concepts Lovecraft used. Instead of many of the ethnic divisions Lovecraft used to create his cults and human villains, we have undead neo-Nazis and former CIA fronts. We have merely exchanged Lovecraft's vision of evil lurking in the genetic codes of other races with finding that evil in its institutions and those who run it. Instead of "undying Chinamen" we have occult organized crime. Same theme, different players and a tweaked setting in my opinion. And behind it all, we still have an uncaring universe and tentacled horrors pulling the stings and devouring us slowly. Now, I definitely do agree with observations on threads with the list. I have seen many threads come up that have died on the vine with few if any responses that should have been explored more in depth. Also, some old topics have resurfaced that I think would be interesting to reexplore, especially with the recent growth of the list. This people are quickly told to simply check the Ice Cave or archives and blown off. I agree that some topics should be referred there (I mean there is very little to say on Fuel-Air Explosives or other technical subjects once they've been explored) but if we can return to DG movie topics or theme songs every few months and engage in some of the off-topic threads we've had, appropriate topics should be explored again, especially with new perspectives that might have arisen from new memberships. I know that myself and some lurkers I've talked to off list are intimidated to look at the Tcho-Tchos, MJ-12 or other topics because of a two year old thread that the list seems to hold as being the end of the issue. I would like to see new explorations and reviewing of old ones if that can really add thoughts and opinions to the setting. Also, it must be noted that the "fluff" factor and entertainment value does play in here and that is a good thing. Like Lovecraft's love of architecture or a Gunfondler's love of firearms, different topics will be of different interest to different Keepers and authors. The recent quantum physics discussion, for example, didn't overly interest me but has a definite value to the setting and the list. To some campaigns and fiction, this would be an important issue to be developed, while insignificant in others. This is all a mileage may vary issue and cannot be regulated or its importance be gauged. Used wrongly and it doesn't fit, used correctly and it adds an important element of exploration and development. We also attempt to be friendly and entertaining on the list. Kept in perspective and under control, threads like the movie thread allow us to interact with each other in a fun way. It doesn't add much, if anything, to Lovecraftian horror but allows us to be friends. We aren't academics dissecting Lovecraft/DG/CoC; we are gamers, authors and lovers of fiction reaching out to each other. I don't think it really destroys the setting by engaging in it. Personally, I'd love to see more on-topic things but I don't want to live there all the time on the list. <<>> I disagree here. The mythos might be subtler but is still integral to the setting. Technically, yes, you could change everything to suit CHILL or AD&D but then again you could add the mythos to AD&D and change the theme of a Forgotten Realms campaign to what it wasn't intended to be, too. What would the Fate, Karotechia or Tiger Transit be without their mythos connections? They would be another cliché Mafia, neo-Nazi or CIA front group. It is that mythos connection that takes them from the mundane and puts them into the realm of the special. Tentacled horrors do still lurk behind the fronts and wouldn't be the same with just another generic monster or evil villain. Changing that background, even subtlety, would make a difference. <<>> We really would have to look at what constitutes Lovecraftian fiction, here. Lovecraft wrote non-mythos stories. Are they Lovecraftian fiction in this paradigm? The peers and followers of Lovecraft in fiction, are they Lovecraftian? We have attached the term to many authors who wrote non-Mythos and try and take it from authors who have written mythos. Where do you draw the line? CoC itself has been influenced by the likes of Derleth and Lumley, who certainly took the mythos in a different direction. It has also chosen or discarded elements that it felt didn't fit its themes and goals. Is where they drew the lines any more valid than another view or tweak? The mythos and Lovecraftian fiction has grown, developed and expanded in a number if different ways, so I feel that DG is just as much a part of that as any other vision. Even CoC had to step out of the Lovecraftian paradigm to be successful. Short of running small one-shots which end immediately with at least the retirement of a character and more likely the death or madness of them, you are leaving Lovecraft's vision. Few of his characters made significant return appearances outside of their original stories. None of his characters made the kind of globetrotting adventures that have made the classic campaigns (like Masks of Nyarlathotep) classic. Lovecraft's characters are pulled in to one interaction, even those that get to go to an exotic locale like the Mountains of Madness, and then are done in one way or another. Even Armitage does his one duty and then slips back into the shadows to manage the library and maintain contacts. CoC had to step outside that limited view to make the game work, so DG going a step further doesn't seem to me to be an erosion as much as an evolution. They also had to establish goals and rationales for adventuring outside of traditional Lovecraft. How could you truly role-play Lovecraft's creations as they many of them stand? In Call of Cthulhu (the story), the character is merely someone who has interviewed sources and gathered information, each chapter an exploration of one source. Not very exciting to play the narrator-character because he didn't interact personally with the mythos and to play each individual scene you have a limited focus and predetermined ending to a one-shot. Mountains of Madness would have to be played as a linear adventure with no more than fleeing the ultimate goal. Gaming has had to step away from the true focus to be playable. I don't think that DG has gone any further than was necessary for playability and plausibility and that hasn't been that far of a journey. Sorry for the long rant, -Dave K