From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jimmie Bise Jr [jimmiebjr@olg.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:05 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool > Who has to finish illustrating the Unspeakable Oath, a miniatures game, > while > wrapping up DG novel #2 at the same time. > For my next trick... > Guys, you should know that I speak for a whole lot of us here when I say that, though each of us have had our quibbles with the products here and there, your stuff has always been top-notch. Given that there aren't many of you, what you turn out, and how quickly, is pretty damned impressive. You've stayed away form a lot of thigns that have plagued other companies and product lines and are one of the very few games I'd buy from sight-unseen. So, given that there aren't many of you, and you have a lot to do. I get to ask this question again. How, exactly can we, the loyal - nee rabid - devotees of Pagan Publishing help you? There has to be some way where we can be useful, either in proofreading, or something like that, to take some of the load off of you. So what do you think? I know we've gone over this before and I've readily volunteered wherever I'm able, but perhaps it's time to check again. -Jimmie ==================================== Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Creeping longevity At 10:41 PM 4/10/00 EDT, you wrote: > > Yeah, but I couldn't understand his reply. Something about guy-gin >pen-day-ho and getting my yar-bulls smashed, if I had any. > They don't advertise for Lizard Kings in the newspaper... JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Graeme Price [graemep@immagene.mcg.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:47 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Names >Now I could be wrong about this... but I have this odd notion that names in >DG are often intentionally misspelt. The only ones that spring to mind off >the top of my head are "Carssandra" and "Jordon" in "Alien Intelligence," >although I think some of the Russian names in the Skoptsi section might be >wrong (oh, "Lavrenti" is consistently rendered "Laverti" throughout >Countdown). But "Carssandra" and "Jordon" are not misspellings - they are >clearly the character's names. They're just odd versions of the common >spellings. Silly names in COUNTDOWN - surely not?!! He said tongue-in-cheek considering his own efforts... [I do beleive that "Laverti Beria" is the correct anglicised spelling though, as I have seen it rendered that way in at least two other reputable sources] Later Graeme graemep@immag.mcg.edu From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:53 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pre-War Germany In a message dated 4/11/00 6:48:29 AM Central Daylight Time, box_nine@ix.netcom.com writes: << It's not stats, but you might want to check out Philip Kerr's Berlin Noir series. If memory serves, the first novel (March Violets) is set in 1936 and the second (The Pale Criminal) takes place in 1938. Of course, they're both set in Berlin, so I don't know if they'd meet your precise needs. >> Or read "I am a Camera" the memoir of an American lady night club singer in the nihilist avante garde of 1930's Berline. It was the basis for "Cabaret" but as depressing as parts of Cabaret are - the musical authors left a lot of the really meaty stuff OUT of their book for the musical. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 3:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents In a message dated 4/11/00 10:37:28 AM Central Daylight Time, box_nine@ix.netcom.com writes: << I think fleshing out agents' home life raises the stakes, in that it gives agents something to be fighting for. It also can help counteract the 'agents as trigger-happy maniacs with no personalities' syndrome. Comments? Thoughts on how to make this work in a campaign? Steven ------------ Will probably start having dreams about balloon animals one of these days... >> Since most DG agents and frindlies get pulled into this life-and-death game from their normal lives willy-nilly - this is a very valid question. How does an agent with earth-shattering knowledge handle relations with his family who do NOT share this knowledge? Lots of books deal with this double nature of the intell agents' life - Lots of books deal with their intell agent characters as loners whose personal life has been ruined. Surely there would be some who can partition their lives effectively - they would also be infected with the "hope" virus rather heavily or they will eventually shoot their families to spare them from the knowledge that has shattered the agent. But SOME must be able to become just insane enough to function in bot realities - but they willbe the minority, I should think. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:53 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents At 06:37 PM 4/11/00 +0200, you wrote: >box_nine@ix.netcom.com schrieb: > > "How was your work, honey?" > "Ah, the usual. We found out about a cult praying to Shub Niggurath. > Killed 5 of them, imprisoned 26 of them, but who cares, the Stars will > someday be right again and mankind is doomed. What's for dinner?" > I think actually that you've hit on the very essence of DG there. Yeah, sure, we're all doomed, but how do you make your mark, find some happiness, make it all go away for just a little while? Your friends, your family, your significant other. It's the beauty and happiness that can be found in ordinary, everyday stuff that helps us cling to sanity, no? JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 3:25 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: World War Two chemical weapons On 11 April, 2000 AD, Daniel Harms says, concerning WWII Chemical Weapons: >At 07:40 PM 4/10/2000 -0500, Don wrote: > > >I have a different vague recollection about gassing Iwo Jima (or some > >other Last Stand Fortress) and announcing that it was the result of a > >Death Ray Secret Weapon... > >Aha! So YOU were the one! Amazing what you find out on this list... Actually, the idea was Stanley Lovell's. Lovell, the head of the OSS' "Q Branch", described this plan in one chapter of his book "Of Spies and Strategems". (Interesting book -- with information on wartime OSS counterfeiting of ID papers and occupation currency, on various gadgets, sabotage devices, and secret weapons... DG Agents in ODH might have access to some of these; in fact there may still be a Delta Green warehouse somewhere with shelves full of these weapons and gadgets...) Lovell suggested an alternative to a classic invasion, into the teeth of the prepared Japanese defenses. A squadron of the Navy's then-new "Baltimore" heavy cruisers would stand off and bombard Iwo Jima with 8-inch gas shells. (The identification stripe on each shell would be painted out beforehand, so that not even the sailors could be sure what type of shells they were firing.) While the Japanese defenses were formidable, they were not sealed against chemical attack, and the Japanese garrison had no gas masks. When the gas eventually cleared, the Marines could land unopposed. Through "the usual channels", word would "accidentally" leak that the test of the new Death Ray, at Iwo Jima, had been a success! If necessary, a US Government spokesman would later issue a statement that the US of course had no "Buck Rogers Death Ray" -- which would inspire the Japanese spies to redouble their efforts to find out about this new Gaijin weapon, to the detriment of most of their normal intelligence-gathering work! In a severe case of "Not Invented Here", Lovell's plan was vetoed by the US Military, which weren't about to let some civilian spy tell them how to take an enemy-held island! Thus, they took Iwo Jima the "old-fashioned" way, producing a great photo (which later became a great statue), and taking heavy casualties! Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 3:52 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents Popeyesays@aol.com schrieb: [snip] > Since most DG agents and frindlies get pulled into this life-and-death game > from their normal lives willy-nilly - this is a very valid question. How does > an agent with earth-shattering knowledge handle relations with his family who > do NOT share this knowledge? Lots of books deal with this double nature of > the intell agents' life - Lots of books deal with their intell agent > characters as loners whose personal life has been ruined. Surely there would > be some who can partition their lives effectively - they would also be > infected with the "hope" virus rather heavily or they will eventually shoot > their families to spare them from the knowledge that has shattered the agent. > But SOME must be able to become just insane enough to function in bot > realities - but they willbe the minority, I should think. > Some good comments, especially your idea that you need to be insane to "function in both realities". And in my oppinion. your PCs private life is a good background for some unusual adventures. Kind of a break from fighting the mythos: Fighting to keep your family together: Avoid the divorce, strenghten the connection to your parents. On this point one can learn from "Star Trek - The Next Generation": In the last few seasons some of the best episodes were those that dealt with family matters and relations and NOT the ones that dealt with strange aliens or wormholes. I think a non-mythos-family-matters-episode every couple of scenarios or so may in fact strengthen your campaigns. I try to do this already for a couple of years. A scenario where every player has to deal with his character's personal problems often shows one strange thing: Such episodes quite often touch the players more than fighting yet another cult: Once one of my players had a PC, an FBI agent, who was married and the couple just had a baby. Because of his changes after getting in touch with the mythos, his wife filed the divorce and in the courtroom he lost the child to his then ex-wife. And we played the whole affair as a prologue to a "normal" DG-Adventure that took place only one day after the courtroom drama. And during the whole "normal" scenario the player's/characters thoughts were with his wife and child. It really added another level of detail, character development and emotional tension to the whole campaign. ECKHAD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:58 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool At 03:04 PM 4/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >> Who has to finish illustrating the Unspeakable Oath, a miniatures game, >> while >> wrapping up DG novel #2 at the same time. >> For my next trick... >> Look, Denis, you might have fooled the others, but you don't fool me... I know you Paganites are all hanging with your be-yatchs at Pagan Towers, chilling with yer homies and going wrinkly in the Dark Young sized foot-spa you have there, brimming over with champagne. And you had that new bowling alley installed last week with the flashing strobes down the middle and the UV lights. And you have a Pagan helicopter. And a mini-sub. And enough gold jewellery to make the Cybermen call it a day. And meanwhile your legions of genetically engineered Thai workmen thrash and moan over a million typewriters in an effort to repeat your earlier successes. No, hang on a sec. That's White Wolf, isn't it? Sorry! Jonathan Lighting blue touchpaper and retreating to a safe distance, tongue firmly in cheek.... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Good evening. David Irving, infamous for denying the holocaust, has lost his lawsuit. He had started this lawsuit against "Penguin Books" and one of their authors who had claimed that Irving denied the holocaust and therefore is a revisionist, liar and Nazi. He felt insulted and started this lawsuit because he wanted to stop this defamation, since he really believes that the holocaust did not happen. Today he lost. The judge told him that he denied the holocaust because he is a racist, anti-semitic and a fascist extremist. ObDG: Wouldn't either a civil lawsuit or a criminal procedure against a "former" Karotechia-member be a good courtroom-drama-background for a DG-scenario? Or [ even better idea I guess ] a just-post-WWII-mini-campaign dealing with some of the lesser known episodes of the Nuremberg trials? ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Fred Rbtsn [internationalbob@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: unsubscribe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Alejandro Ramos [aramos@step.es] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:31 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Betrayer Hi all, In my current DG campaign, one of my agents betrayed DG. He set contact with some Russians Maffia to sell them some alien technology (that he get from a DG operation). From now on, this agent report to the Russians about all his DG actions. This was a good chance to confront him to the other agents but the game is turning a little confused and strained. Did you have some similar experiences with a Betrayer? yours, Alejandro Ramos aramos@step.es DG- Last Frontier Campaign (Spanish Site) http://members.es.tripod.de/dweller/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:58 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: re:DG: Encoding messages I was thinking also of an experiment that took place in Central America (this was reported on UK television some years back). Young, profoundly deaf and dumb, children were asssembled into a stable community and taught American Sign Language. In a decade or so they spontanously transformed the ASL into a proper language, with a sophisticated grammer, without adult guidance. If it can be done with hand signs - what else? The Glove Cleaner ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Radford To: > Where creating new languages is concerned, I have no > idea how difficult it is but i do believe, if my memory > serves me, that there are a growing number of Star Trek > fans who are learning to speak Klingon. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:38 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Tickling the Dragon's tail ----- Original Message ----- From: > If you look for awhile the electrical sensation should pass and you should > be able to look without fear. Then it gets interesting. Most people who have > done this experiment report the persistent thought of jumping. Some have even > found themselves flexing at the knee or in some other way preparing to jump. > I know I have. I've been on this situation while up on mountains and, no, I never felt the urge to jump. Nothing but the acrophobia at medium-to-high volume: and when that started to fade a very strong, rational, warning from some other submind that said "You are big clumsy guy and if you train yourself out of fear-of-heights you will not therefore become immune to falling" Bent knees, yes, yes: but that's mechanical instinctual stabilising reflex - lowers Centre of Gravity. I don't understand the death-wish in the face of danger. But I do sometimes feel the desire for Rest. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 5:04 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Betrayer Alejandro Ramos schrieb: > Hi all, > > In my current DG campaign, one of my agents betrayed DG. He set contact with > some Russians Maffia to sell them some alien technology (that he get from a > DG operation). From now on, this agent report to the Russians about all his > DG actions. This was a good chance to confront him to the other agents but > the game is turning a little confused and strained. > > Did you have some similar experiences with a Betrayer? Ehm, no. A DG-Agent that betrayed the conspiracy for economical reasons? No, such a traitor never occured in one of my campaigns. There were single PCs that flirted with teaming up with MJ-12, some were touched by the charm of Mr. Alzis. But selling mythos-relevant artefacts to the russian Mafia, just for the money? No, this never happened. May I ask this: How did this happen? Did the player come up with this idea? Why did you let this happen [ this is no criticism, only the question: Did you plan this, or were you just surprised by your players unorthodox activities?]? Anyway: I think that it A-Cell found out about such thing they would definitely take VERY drastic measures. Might I add....."Agent Andrea"!?! ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Abel Lindburg [abel_123@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 5:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Betrayer Alejandro Ramos put on the wall with spray paint: > Hi all, > > In my current DG campaign, one of my agents betrayed DG. He set contact with > some Russians Maffia to sell them some alien technology (that he get from a > DG operation). From now on, this agent report to the Russians about all his > DG actions. This was a good chance to confront him to the other agents but > the game is turning a little confused and strained. > > Did you have some similar experiences with a Betrayer? > An interesting situation. I cannot say I've encountered this problem exactly, though I could easily see a money-driven character doing so. However, if DG picks those they invite to the opera like say, Mossad picks its 'friendlies', DG would be observing the player lots *before* they became a member, with extensive psychological analysis of the data they received. This is not perfect, and doesn't solve your problem, but its something to think about when players are invited into DG. DG in my game mitigates betrayal from players (the most likely suspects, for no one else would willingly betray DG unless I thought it fit a plot I ran) is the players don't know who they work for. In essence, they have their home organizations, but have no idea who they assist with a common agenda. This limits just how much they can betray. Again, this doesn't directly address your situation, but is somewhat closer to the mark. Players are also pretty closely watched, and while a visit from Andrea is possible. DG is savvy enough in my game to use the player as a source of misinformation, or as a probe to more hostile areas. "Here are our current (bogus) plans. Could you check out something in Great Britain for us...?" In another game, such agents were called 'Shivs' and were disposable, and usually used for cover for the real operation. But, on to the immediate problem. These activities would eventually be noticed by GRU-8. The player could find themselves in a very short squeeze, trying to avoid getting liquidated by the Russian equivalent to Delta Green only to learn DG is well aware of their activities, and the cell has been 'cut off'. Some serious negotiation to re-establish ties might be made, and the player might be able to beg a 'useful' status. It is highly unlikely, unless through some act of heroism that saves the organization, the player would be trusted by DG ever again. However, I would like to point out, that unless DG has the opportunity to learn of the leak fairly, no arbitrary punishment should be handed out, in my oh-so-humble opinion. "Confused and Strained" are good things in a game, I think, and the player might even perceive things that make them *think* DG already knows. The paranoia opportunity is excellent. Abel "All Problems are Opportunities in Disguise" Lindburg From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 6:01 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Pagan's Own Green Box (was: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool) On 11 April 2000 AD, Jonathan Turner >Look, Denis, you might have fooled the others, but you don't fool me... I >know you Paganites are all hanging with your be-yatchs at Pagan Towers, >chilling with yer homies and going wrinkly in the Dark Young sized foot-spa >you have there, brimming over with champagne. Drinking wine before its time? For shame!:) (And champagne? Surely, on its huge budget, Pagan's suits can afford real pain...):) >And you had that new bowling >alley installed last week with the flashing strobes down the middle and the >UV lights. Well, that explains the "Pinlighters Wanted" ads in the Classified Ads...:) >And you have a Pagan helicopter. Not just _a_ helicopter -- my sources suggest this aircraft is a fully equipped Ka-52 Werewolf (AKA HOKUM-B, AKA Alligator), the 2-seat version of the Ka-50 attack helicopter... (http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/ka52/) With high speed and heavy armament, this is one of the most advanced rotary-wing craft to fly out of the former Evil Empire (tm) and just the thing to take into action, should the Shantaks decide to break out of the Pagan Aviary...:) >And a mini-sub. That isn't half of it, folks! My sources strongly suggest their "mini-sub" is the Pagan ASDS (Advanced Seal Delivery System) (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/asds.html), with a surplus "Sturgeon" class SSN (USS "Hawkbill", SSN-666) (http://www.csp.navy.mil/news/666inact.htm and http://www.subnet.com/FLEET/ssn666.htm) as the mother ship!:) >And enough gold >jewellery to make the Cybermen call it a day. They're even ready for Cybermen invasion! Pagan has definitely planned ahead here! Makes you wonder if they can predict the future and -- well, that's another thread!:) >And meanwhile your legions of >genetically engineered Thai workmen thrash and moan over a million >typewriters in an effort to repeat your earlier successes. My sources suggest these genetically altered Thai workmen are actually clones (all trained, of course, as Rangers), and the Accounting Department is trying to say that "however many of them there are, they are just one man, so we pay just one salary"!:) > >No, hang on a sec. That's White Wolf, isn't it? Sorry! Well, them or S.P.E.C.T.R.E.! Use your portable Angstmeter to scan the Angst level in the personnel -- if the level pegs the needle, they're probably Pale Puppy Personnel!:) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mused [mused@idirect.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 6:21 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: The Neverending Story (Was: Re: DG: Dreamspaces & Dreamfusions) How about the animated cartoons? -----Original Message----- > >BTW, the movies suck. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mike Daisey [mdaisey@alum.colby.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 11:26 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pagan's Own Green Box (was: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool) Having spent many hours with these boys over the last few weeks, I can safely say they own nothing but Thai hookers, cheap bourbon and unregulated Soviet military hardware. m. > From: "Michael Layne" > Reply-To: dgrpg@delta-green.com > Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:01:00 EDT > To: dgrpg@delta-green.com > Subject: DG: Pagan's Own Green Box (was: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool) > > On 11 April 2000 AD, Jonathan Turner > >> Look, Denis, you might have fooled the others, but you don't fool me... I >> know you Paganites are all hanging with your be-yatchs at Pagan Towers, >> chilling with yer homies and going wrinkly in the Dark Young sized foot-spa >> you have there, brimming over with champagne. > > Drinking wine before its time? For shame!:) > > (And champagne? Surely, on its huge budget, Pagan's suits can afford > real pain...):) > >> And you had that new bowling >> alley installed last week with the flashing strobes down the middle and the >> UV lights. > > Well, that explains the "Pinlighters Wanted" ads in the Classified > Ads...:) > > >> And you have a Pagan helicopter. > > Not just _a_ helicopter -- my sources suggest this aircraft is a fully > equipped Ka-52 Werewolf (AKA HOKUM-B, AKA Alligator), the 2-seat version of > the Ka-50 attack helicopter... (http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/ka52/) > With high speed and heavy armament, this is one of the most advanced > rotary-wing craft to fly out of the former Evil Empire (tm) and just the > thing to take into action, should the Shantaks decide to break out of the > Pagan Aviary...:) > >> And a mini-sub. > > That isn't half of it, folks! My sources strongly suggest their > "mini-sub" is the Pagan ASDS (Advanced Seal Delivery System) > (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/asds.html), with a surplus > "Sturgeon" class SSN (USS "Hawkbill", SSN-666) > (http://www.csp.navy.mil/news/666inact.htm and > http://www.subnet.com/FLEET/ssn666.htm) as the mother ship!:) > > >> And enough gold >> jewellery to make the Cybermen call it a day. > > They're even ready for Cybermen invasion! Pagan has definitely planned > ahead here! Makes you wonder if they can predict the future and -- well, > that's another thread!:) > >> And meanwhile your legions of >> genetically engineered Thai workmen thrash and moan over a million >> typewriters in an effort to repeat your earlier successes. > > My sources suggest these genetically altered Thai workmen are actually > clones (all trained, of course, as Rangers), and the Accounting Department > is trying to say that "however many of them there are, they are just one > man, so we pay just one salary"!:) > >> >> No, hang on a sec. That's White Wolf, isn't it? Sorry! > > Well, them or S.P.E.C.T.R.E.! > > Use your portable Angstmeter to scan the Angst level in the personnel > -- if the level pegs the needle, they're probably Pale Puppy Personnel!:) > > Michael Layne > DGGF#688 > theherald@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 6:32 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Encoding messages In a message dated 4/11/00 1:18:04 PM Central Daylight Time, forvalaka@juno.com writes: << > Where creating new languages is concerned, I have no > idea how difficult it is but i do believe, if my memory > serves me, that there are a growing number of Star Trek > fans who are learning to speak Klingon. I think there > is an ever evolving dictionary for those wanting to > learn Klingon(-ese?). Someone, even if it were just the > producers at Paramount, has managed to create a new > language where words have meaning and not simply > nonsense. > >> What about M.A.R. Barker's creation Tekumel (Empire of the Petal Throne). He is a professor of Eastern Studies and not only speaks several languages fluently - has created several for his unique game world - Tsolyanu and Muugalavyanuu at least - I think there are more. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 6:48 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Encoding messages Interesting. Has he also produced written forms - like FX Tolkien's elvish scripts? The Glove Cleaner. ----- Original Message ----- From: > What about M.A.R. Barker's creation Tekumel (Empire of the Petal Throne). He > is a professor of Eastern Studies and not only speaks several languages > fluently - has created several for his unique game world - Tsolyanu and > Muugalavyanuu at least - I think there are more. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of PaganArt@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 8:01 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pagan's Own Green Box (was: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool) In a message dated 4/11/00 4:31:24 PM, mdaisey@alum.colby.edu writes: << Having spent many hours with these boys over the last few weeks, I can safely say they own nothing but Thai hookers, cheap bourbon and unregulated Soviet military hardware. m. >> I have to take offense at this comment Michael, that's "Soviet <> military hardware". Carry on. -Dennis From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Til Eulenspiegel [duggerj@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:32 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: O.D.H. Art Suggestion Tuesday, 11 April 2000 Dennis Detwiller, I suggest making at least a few pieces of the art from OUR DARKEST HOUR as if they were drawn by amateur artists among Allied and Axis servicemembers. (Artwork done by a family friend while he was on Iwo Jima was plenty horrific.) Showing the Mythos and war's horrors in a fairly low technique or with improvised materials (pencil and paper) might well add to such images' power. I trust Pagan not to screw up O.D.H. I will say "Pagan will continue to uphold their high standards" once the next issue of my TUO subscription arrives. BTW, my new address is Jay Dugger/#3Cimmarron Drive/St. Charles, MO/63304-7256. Finally, you might consider defusing DGML whining by soliciting material from them, just as y'all did with COUNTDOWN. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Noyes [ft203004@fsinet.or.jp] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:16 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: was Encoding messages, now a huge, honking linguistic post >I was thinking also of an experiment that took place in Central America >(this was reported on UK television some years back). Young, profoundly >deaf and dumb, children were asssembled into a stable community and taught >American Sign Language. In a decade or so they spontanously transformed >the ASL into a proper language, with a sophisticated grammer, without adult >guidance. >If it can be done with hand signs - what else? ::Jay dusts off his linguistics degree:: Well, since you ask, it seems that just about any interlanguage or pidgin can be converted to a creole (or full language, depending on who you talk to) pretty much within the first generation that grows up speaking it. I, too, have heard a version of the above story, although as I understood it, the children had all learned different sign language systems prior to being brought together. After they were brought together and taught ASL -- which is a proper language in its own right as it is -- a new third language was formed. This sort of thing has happened many times in human history, perhaps the most notable occuring during the colonization of the Carribean. Almost all of the dialects spoken in the Carribean begain as pidgins. Pidgins are contact langauges formed whenever two or more languages meet without any one being consistantly dominant. The result is heavily based in semantics, with only the most rudimentary and extremely variable grammar system and word order.In this case, the African slaves were brought over and deliberately kept in mixed tribal groups to help prevent insurrection. The result was a pidgin that borrowed heavily from the various languages while using the language of the master as a common ground to build upon. Now comes the fun -- and most widely debated -- part. What seems to happen next is that the first generation of children that grows up speaking the pidgin fills in the gaps in vocabulary and grammar, making it a full-fledged creole. These creoles seem to have related properties, although it is difficult to compare them because they always spring from such widely varying environments. The best -- and for lack of a better word "purest" -- examples _seem_ to come from situations in which the linguistic system is most stressed: the slaves being brought, mixed together and literally forced to find a new alternative. Other creoles, such as Tok Pisin ("Talk Pidgin") of Papua New Guinea seem to have developed from the less desperately developed pidgins that develop when a new language is needed for trade or for religion. The utterly cool thing about all of this is that the grammar and vocabulary developing skills needed for creolization seem to rest entirely within the young. Its as thought there is a section of the brain that demands a certain traits in its communication with other people. If you learn a language, any language, then those requirements are fulfilled, and that portion atrophies from lack of use, and you get the average person. If you grow up having no interaction with other people and speaking no language at all, then that section atrophies from use and you get the so-called "feral children", who almost never acquire language beyond the pidgin level for the rest of their lives. If you grow up speaking a pidgin, then this portion of the brain supplies the minimum grammar and reorganizes the language that you do have so that it fulfills the basic requirements, and then atrophies. The language then goes on to develop over the years slowly drifting from one grammar to the next, as languages do. Incidently, this part of the brain may also be the reason that people who grow up speaking only one language have trouble learning others later in life, whereas people who grow up speaking many languages, and thus constantly access this part of the brain, thereby keeping it from atrophying, can pick up new languages with relative ease. I have a Malaysian friend who speaks something like eight languages, and acquires others pretty much at will. Oh, one more cool thing: English occasionally displays the traits of a creolized language, or at least one that developed under less extreme conditions. Remember 1066 and all that? The whole interaction between the French-speaking upper class and the Saxon-speaking subject class may have led to the formation of many pidgins over the years, which have at various times creolized. And one last note: Please realize that this isn't really an example of racial memory, or some kind of natural language. Like I said, it seems more that the brain has certain minimums that it demands from communication. Nevertheless, I am sure that the fevered minds of the DG list can make a DG-relevant connection from this post. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Names In a message dated 4/11/00 12:53:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, graemep@immagene.mcg.edu writes: << Silly names in COUNTDOWN - surely not?!! He said tongue-in-cheek considering his own efforts... >> I liked Tobias Knight being in PISCES. That would make him a sextuple agent, I believe. Mark McFadden Ewige Blumenkraft. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool In a message dated 4/11/00 5:31:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << Wasn't it Charles the Wise that said, had he been present on the Day of Creation, he could have given God a pair of good advices? Whatever you do, there will always be a creep that will pop up and say he'd have done it better. Talk is cheap. But again, I do not think the wild speculations that appeared on this list so far should be interpreted that way. >> They shouldn't be, but they can be. As semi-objective readers, we pass over a statement like "let's hope ODH doesn't fall into that trap" or even "I have misgivings about the possibility of ..." and think nothing of it. But the comment wasn't about a work-in-progress of *yours*. Here's the proper sort of conversation to have with the author of a work-in-progress: You: How's it going? Author: mumble You: [either commiserate or show elation depending on the tone of the mumble] I can't wait. You won't find this in Miss Manners and it's not official. Instead of thinking of it as some dutiful social ritual, think of it as the best tactic for Making Friends And Influencing People. And remember, your natural rights to spew whatever crosses your mind to all and sundry have not really been stifled, because you can still do what thou wilt. Just use it when the work-in-progress under the spotlight is being discussed in the author's presence, if you will. Now, some people try the empathy check, then head on regardless because they, personally, don't mind (or think they don't mind) criticism in public. In public. In public. In public. More power to you, I wish I was like that at times. But I'm not. Disagree with everything I say in private, and my response is usually "hmmm, I never saw it that way." If the criticism is valid, I might even change my nasty ways if the arguments are presented entertainingly. Have the same dialogue with me in public and you only have some of my attention, the rest is dedicated to calculating how much English to put on my response when I spike it back at you. I used to think this was because I Lacked Character because I was a Bad Person. Then I discovered the Kiersey Temperament Sorter and found that a small percentage of the population feels the same way I do. It's part of the profile and therapy won't "cure" it. I can change my response to the stimulus (and have, mostly), but I cannot change how I feel about it. I/ENTP (I'm an introverted extrovert or vice versa) in particular are prone to this, but it is typical of the NT (Promethean) profile in general. So I am not alone even if there is elbow room. What this means is that of the class of all people, as many as 20% of them feel this way to some degree. Those who feel that a mail list dedicated to a game should include critiques of the game and it's modules are probably wondering where this leaves them. I hope all it does is make you proofread before posting, toss out a few "is"s and replace with a few "I"s. If some chapter wasn't your cup of tea, maybe hold off on that revelation until you've got something more to say about it than "I don't like it." Did you not like it to the point of distraction, or do you simply not see yourself using it? In short, what value is added by your critique? And is the DGML the best forum for it? Criticism is as much an art form as the works under the knife. Let me carefully enunciate that I am not aiming this at anyone in particular *or* general. I have seen no signs of malice or the critic's disease on this list. If I did I'd address it offline and no one would be reading this. I believe that if some offend, it is with their good will. Read interviews with writers. If you look carefully, very few talk about the actual process of writing. They have a canned response for that lame "where do you get your ideas" question and then segue into why they did this or that, but you will find damn few who will talk about the actual contortions they go through behind the keyboard. That's because it's private. Go ahead, come up behind a writer at work, notice the unconscious move to cover the screen. Here's the key: think of the creative process as masturbation. After the giggling dies down, look closer. It's private and goes on mostly in the practitioner's head. It's hard to share the process with loved ones because of it's private, personal nature. So imagine how you'd feel if someone commented on your masturbating. "I hope it's as good as the last one" gets weird, and "How's it going?" is distracting to annoying. And "I hope you don't forget to include..." is *your* fantasy, feel free to work on it by yourself. Find a Norwegian to watch. Here's one of the cool parts about being on this list and having the authors read your commentary. In Rules of Engagement, Alphonse has a code phrase for putting Casa Alphonse into defense mode. He calls out a phrase familiar to readers of the Illuminatus Trilogy. Now, I'm the guy what brought up the 23 Enigma on this list, but I know that I wasn't the only one who read the books. I figured that the writers of a conspiracy type game would have read them. I doubt that I inspired that line in ROE. It might very well have been written before I ever showed up here. BUT, I do know that somewhere during the editing process, when that line came up, John Tynes knew that somewhere under the palm trees a long-haired leaping gnome would particularly enjoy that line. How often do you have that sort of experience while reading? Mark McFadden Typing with both hands. Never hurt (or annoy) people by accident. This is one of the first steps in developing wa. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Operation:CATHOUSE conclusion? In a message dated 4/11/00 5:31:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << This being a Modern Art thing, the dragon figure is rendered as a collage of blue fishes. >> Were they mouthbreeders? Mark McFadden From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Encoding messages In a message dated 4/11/00 8:25:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, paulradford@innotts.co.uk writes: << Where creating new languages is concerned, I have no idea how difficult it is but i do believe, if my memory serves me, that there are a growing number of Star Trek fans who are learning to speak Klingon. I think there is an ever evolving dictionary for those wanting to learn Klingon(-ese?). Someone, even if it were just the producers at Paramount, has managed to create a new language where words have meaning and not simply nonsense. >> The creator of the Klingon language is a language professional. He started with the sounds and phrases that were already recorded and built from there. He now runs a Klimgon Language Camp for those who want to immerse themselves in things Klingon. Other artificial languages include Esperanto and the languages Anthony Burgess created for Quest For Fire. Mark McFadden From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jason R. Armstrong [gerwalkveritech@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:14 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Neverending/Dreams On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:20:34 -0400 "Mused" writes: >How about the animated cartoons? > >-----Original Message----- >> >>BTW, the movies suck. > All right, I'm a bit curious. did you say, "MovieS", as in, plural? They made more than one? And there were cartoons of this tripe as well? Jesus H. Yig Snakedaddy Christ. I don't really recall liking the novel too much either, I am afraid to say. I was about 11 when I tried reading it...is it actually geared towards adults, and I just assumed that my not liking it, meant it sucked? My only enduring loves of childhood that I don't actively hate now are the "Black Company" series, Peter Beagle's "Last Unicorn" (quit laughing goddamnit!), and Shepard's "Life During Wartime" (a common re-read). the first two help a lot with the integration of fantastic with "real"; very useful for keeping a Dreamlanders scenario from turning into "Masturbators of Gor". And the second, well, it's just...hahhaha, perfect mood stting for DG mind-control sessions. "Your dreams they all are dead. I shot 'em in the head. Now, don't run out on me, son. Because the party's just begun... ...Tell me all your problems, And the way you're gonna solve "em, And I'll do my best to prove you wrong-" -Sheer Terror, "I, Spoiler" xJAYx ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mike Daisey [mdaisey@alum.colby.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:35 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pagan's Own Green Box (was: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool) Note taken. m. > From: PaganArt@aol.com > Reply-To: dgrpg@delta-green.com > Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:00:58 EDT > To: dgrpg@delta-green.com > Subject: Re: DG: Pagan's Own Green Box (was: Re: DG: Pissing in the Pool) > > > In a message dated 4/11/00 4:31:24 PM, mdaisey@alum.colby.edu writes: > > << Having spent many hours with these boys over the last few weeks, > I can safely say they own nothing but Thai hookers, cheap bourbon > and unregulated Soviet military hardware. > > m. >> > > I have to take offense at this comment Michael, > > that's "Soviet <> military hardware". > > Carry on. > > -Dennis > > From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Don Juneau [djuneau@io.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 10:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: World War Two chemical weapons On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Daniel Harms wrote: > >I have a different vague recollection about gassing Iwo Jima (or some > >other Last Stand Fortress) and announcing that it was the result of a > >Death Ray Secret Weapon... > > Aha! So YOU were the one! Amazing what you find out on this list... Hmmm? Did I sideslip into an alternate history again? This incarnation enjoys noir movies, big-band music, and big ol' chrome-laden boats of automobiles, but isn't of the correct vintage to have done this... Or just that Vague Recollection that I might have posted before? I *really* wish I could remember the source... Don From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 12:01 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Fw: Re: Some Questions This one is froom my roomie... --------- Forwarded message ---------- On a similar vein..... I was the only female player in a game with four male players and a male GM. At one point our group needed to access a suspect's hotel room (Vegas casino) to search for something. The guys were all ready to jimmie the lock, use the computer to access the code, steal the keys from the maid, shoot out the lock, etc., et al. What did I do? I stopped the group in a back hallway, handed one of them my purse and shoes, mussed up my long blonde hair, and went to the front desk saying I'd locked myself out of my room and could I please have another key? Tap tap tap went the clerk, buz buz buz went the key-coding machine, and ta da! One room key! Sometimes a simple white lie can do wonders......... -Alison ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Daniel Harms [dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 12:11 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed At 11:06 PM 4/11/2000 +0200, you wrote: >Good evening. >David Irving, infamous for denying the holocaust, has lost his lawsuit. He had >started this lawsuit against "Penguin Books" and one of their authors who had >claimed that Irving denied the holocaust and therefore is a revisionist, liar and >Nazi. He felt insulted and started this lawsuit because he wanted to stop this >defamation, since he really believes that the holocaust did not happen. Today he >lost. The judge told him that he denied the holocaust because he is a racist, >anti-semitic and a fascist extremist. I read something about this in ATLANTIC MONTHLY a while back. Story was, Irving sued for damages in a British court, because the person making the charge had to prove it was right beyond a reasonable doubt. If he had won, it would not only have set a dangerous precedent in revisionist circles, it would have been a serious blow against scholarship in general. Bravo! Yrs., Daniel Harms dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu The Internet: Learn what you know. Share what you don't. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 1:46 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Neverending/Dreams Jason R. Armstrong schrieb: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:20:34 -0400 "Mused" writes: > >How about the animated cartoons? > > > >-----Original Message----- > >> > >>BTW, the movies suck. > > > All right, I'm a bit curious. did you say, "MovieS", as in, plural? > They made more than one? > And there were cartoons of this tripe as well? > Jesus H. Yig Snakedaddy Christ. There were at least 3 movies [ I think of even 4 ] and there was a cheap animated series of 20something episodes. ECKHARD ObDG: During the "DG:The Movie"-Thread somebody came up with the idea that a crappy, high-budget hollywood movie might be in interest of DG, since it makes the idea of the existence of such a thing like DG seem ridiculous. I guess a badly made cartoon show would be an even better instrument for this. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Crossingham, Adam [Adam.Crossingham@Octavian1009.E-MAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:45 AM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: RE: DG: Pre-War Germany For a drier, more historical approach to pre-WW2 Germany, or rather Berlin, try "A Dance Between Flames: Berlin Between the Wars" by Anton Gill. I'd recommend it if you can find it. -- Adam Crossingham "I have a cunning plan m'lord" Home e-mail: zodiac@theblackseal.org Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 4:19 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Fw: Re: Some Questions Bravo! My sister has pulled similar stunts in many of our games. Far too few of the ladies are gamers... Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 2:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Cc: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents > > Since most DG agents and frindlies get pulled into this > life-and-death game > from their normal lives willy-nilly - this is a very valid question. > How does > an agent with earth-shattering knowledge handle relations with his > family who > do NOT share this knowledge? Lots of books deal with this double > nature of > the intell agents' life - Lots of books deal with their intell agent > > characters as loners whose personal life has been ruined. Surely > there would > be some who can partition their lives effectively - they would also > be > infected with the "hope" virus rather heavily or they will > eventually shoot > their families to spare them from the knowledge that has shattered > the agent. > But SOME must be able to become just insane enough to function in > bot > realities - but they willbe the minority, I should think. > I've known several people who had jobs that they couldn't talk about. They talk about other things. Those who no longer had those jobs when I knew them say that they missed out on the shop talk and the "I hate my boss/job/co-worker" conversations around the table and at the bar. But very few of them actually felt alienated and alone. Of course few of these people were any like field operatives, and none of them were DG or friendlies (as far as I know). Most just had some kind of security sensitive job that they couldn't discuss. One friend of mine did have a video tape edited by the security people at his facility. But they only blurred out the one part they didn't want seen so it couldn't have been that big a deal. On an interesting note, one of my friends said that he would come home and occasionally find a card left by the facility's security people informing him that his apartment had been searched in a routine spot check. Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:09 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Greetings. Some of our (or at least mine) favourite bad guys are center stage again. Eckhard & Daniel wrote... >>David Irving, infamous for denying the holocaust, has lost his lawsuit. He had >>started this lawsuit against "Penguin Books" and one of their authors who had >>claimed that Irving denied the holocaust and therefore is a revisionist, liar and >>Nazi. He felt insulted and started this lawsuit because he wanted to stop this >>defamation, since he really believes that the holocaust did not happen. Today he >>lost. The judge told him that he denied the holocaust because he is a racist, >>anti-semitic and a fascist extremist. > >I read something about this in ATLANTIC MONTHLY a while back. >Story was, Irving sued for damages in a British court, because the >person making the charge had to prove it was right beyond a reasonable >doubt. If he had won, it would not only have set a dangerous precedent in >revisionist circles, it would have been a serious blow against scholarship >in general. Bravo! I join in on the applause for the judge, but I must confess that the first thing I thought about reading Eckhard's message was: what if he had won, even if just on a minor technicality? We all know about that right wing chap in Austria - we all read or watched his voters being interviewed and saying that he's not such a bad sort after all and what else. Now this. Two days ago, during a special TV show (sort of an anticipated wake and celebration), the dean of Italian journalists - Indro Montanelli, ninety-odd years spent as an ultraconservative and loving it - came up with the phrase 'Mussolini could barely suffer the fascists, actually'. Through a nice bit of conceptual equilibrism, the guy was pushing forward the idea that . Mussolini's line was good and fair and exactly what the doctor ordered, and lots of people (including the yanks) actually envied us lucky spaghetti-munchers for having found such an extraordinary and fair leader . the original, positive fascist message was distorted by the unwashed masses, that applied too strictly and literally the 'great vision' of the leader . the final fuck-up was all Hitler's fault - not that he was a bad sort, mind you, but did not know how to handle pressure; file him away as just like another pour soul that was wrecked by a coke habit. . killing Mussolini without a regular process was the only right thing the 'revolutionaruies' could do, and he as a right-wing man applaudes their show of cojones. My personal paranoia of the moment is - there's a lot of effort going in a general 'softening' of the public image of the WW2 bad guys. And a lot of it passes for academical work but is in fact, as the British judge ruled, the old problem rearing its ugly little head in a more politically correct and acceptable way. I find all this sinister in the extreme. There's a ghost haunting Europe and now it's starting to rattle its chains. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 2:40 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Betrayer Greetings. A creeping evil is corrupting our games. CO Ramos reports.... >In my current DG campaign, one of my agents betrayed DG. He set contact with >some Russians Maffia to sell them some alien technology (that he get from a >DG operation). From now on, this agent report to the Russians about all his >DG actions. This was a good chance to confront him to the other agents but >the game is turning a little confused and strained. > >Did you have some similar experiences with a Betrayer? I have a player (yes, him again - I guess I should give him a musical theme of his own) who would try that trick in any game - from AD&D to Traveller: wherever and whenever ther is a hint of 'the other side', he goes and tries to strike a deal. The thing's become so predictable that I actually count on his betrayal as a plot device somewhere during play: should the game slow down for whatever reason, I just have to throw a hint or two that a connection can be made, and he'll bend over backwards to sell his team, his side or the Whole World (TM) just for the pleasure of sitting back and laugh at the team's gullibility. The bad side is, he tries to outsmart me also in the real world - like borrowing or buying a copy of the campaign we're running in order to anticipate what will happen. The fact that I generally do not run scenarios as printed pisses him off somewhat. Anyway - he tried to sell-out to MJ12 during the first installment of Across the Fence (basically a Vietnam-based reading of "Shadoplays"). He contacted the opposition and ofered to sel them the traveller ship. Now in my book the Bronsons are the kind that think 'once a traitor, always a traitor'. He was therefore extremely surprised (and pretty furious) when instead of the promised money and a standing job, the Men in Hawaiian Shirts game him a 9mm bonus at the base of the cranium. Keep in mind that 'in a business like this' playing both sides means just an dramathic loss of certainties. The double-dealing agent will feel a profound feel of isolation. And then most likely a sharp pain in the neck. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Alejandro Ramos [aramos@step.es] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:19 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: RE: Betrayer > up with this idea? Why did you let this happen [ this is no criticism, only the > question: Did you plan this, or were you just surprised by your players > unorthodox activities?]? I didnīt plan this situation, this was a player choice. We began the campaign with Detwiller scenario PX-Poker Night and this character was assigned to Platte (indiscipline). After his first contact with the grays he join DG. A few scenarios later he set in contact we Russian Mafia to sell them alien technology. In this time I introduce Natalia Chermeninko under the cover of "Irina" a Russian contact betwen agent and mafia. This character have lost 24 COR points along the campaign, and now is a dangerous for DG. His parterns at Cell J begin to suspect. Furthermore this player is very clever (at lest more than the other players) and he have got some clues that arraign the other agents in ilegal actions (the other agents donīt know nothing about this clues). For example, he have got a few photos of agent Jeremia kicking a Phenomen X member. Maybe Iīll use Cell A against this agent to end this betrayal (taking "VERY drastic measures", like Eckhard suggested) yours, Alejandro Ramos aramos@step.es DG- Last Frontier Campaign (Spanish Site) http://members.es.tripod.de/dweller/ Dweller CoC (Spanish Site) www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/1027 From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 6:40 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Davide Mana schrieb: > Greetings. > > Some of our (or at least mine) favourite bad guys are center stage again. He's definitely one of my bad guys since that bastard toured Germany [ and especially the Eastern part ] for a while, visiting congresses of extremely right parties. Some of these parties have already been declared illegal. And Irving as well has been condemned in Germany for what he tells and "teaches". Over here denying the holocaust is a crime that can be punished with up to 5 years in jail [ §130 III StGB ]. > > Eckhard & Daniel wrote... >[snip] > > > >I read something about this in ATLANTIC MONTHLY a while back. > >Story was, Irving sued for damages in a British court, because the > >person making the charge had to prove it was right beyond a reasonable > >doubt. If he had won, it would not only have set a dangerous precedent in > >revisionist circles, it would have been a serious blow against scholarship > >in general. Bravo! > > I join in on the applause for the judge, but I must confess that the first > thing I thought about reading Eckhard's message was: what if he had won, > even if just on a minor technicality? Though I am not an expert in British common law, as far as I know [ from a seminar (word?) I did in London a while ago ] in the British legal system the judge is very powerful. And since this is common law, and therefore case law and this was the first case of such a kind he was pretty free in his judgment. And of course the case law is the reason why a victory by Irving would have been a desaster or, as Daniel said "a dangerous precedent". And concerning the "minor technicalities" Davide mentioned: As far as I understand what I heard in the news, the matter was a civil law procedure. And the civil procedures of the legal systems I know do not have that many technicalites that can "ruin" the case. Such "technicalites" are typical for the criminal procedure, where you find certain rules that shall protect the accused: The best known examples are the rules that limit the possibilities of the police, like "no torture, please" to put it simple. If such rules are not obeyed this CAN lead to the result of the accused staying a free, even though everybody knows that he's guilty. I do not want to be a bitch, but I find calling such liberties or rather the ignorance and disrespect concerning such often essential rights and liberties "minor technicalities" a bit difficult, since these laws protect the innocent as well. This hurts the little defense lawyer in me ;-) But here I'll stop my rant about the philosopies of criminal procedures. > > We all know about that right wing chap in Austria - we all read or watched > his voters being interviewed and saying that he's not such a bad sort after > all and what else. The chap is called Haider and though I do consider him to be dangerous and -even more- a lunatic, I think that the reaction of the European Union was a bit too much, kind of hysterical. For those in the colonies: The EU pretty much diplomatically isolates Austria, which is a EU-member. And some things are plain idiocy: A visit by Austrian students [ the age of 16 or 17 ] was cancelled by the mayor of the French town they should visit. I mean, even though the success of Haiders party, the FPO, is not a pleasant thing to watch, they were elected by 20 odd percent of the whole population. This is of course a lot, but as the former mayor of Vienna [ who had one of his hands blown to pieces by a letter bomb sent by right wing terrorists ] said: Because of this you cannot take the whole population of Austria as hostages. Just my 2 cents. > Now this. [snip] > . the final fuck-up was all Hitler's fault - not that he was a bad sort, > mind you, but did not know how to handle pressure; file him away as just > like another pour soul that was wrecked by a coke habit. You mean, the fellow accused Hitler of having a coke habit? Hell, He might have been a nicer guy if had had at least one vice [ traditional vices, not the vice of being a terrible war criminal and mass murderer ]. Hitler did not drink, he did not smoke and he was even a vegetarian! [ And I will not start to list all the theories about Hitler's sex life, or the lack of it. ] ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jeff Ewing [ambjpe@gis.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 6:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Davide Mana wrote: [Indro Montanelli avers] > . Mussolini's line was good and fair and exactly what the doctor ordered, > and lots of people (including the yanks) actually envied us lucky > spaghetti-munchers for having found such an extraordinary and fair leader Well, I hate to say this, but the second part of the proposition is partly true. Many Americans fell under the spell of totalitarianism during the 30s. Recall that in those desperate days liberal industrial capitalism (of the sort that had run the US for decades) seemed to have imploded dramatically and finally. Mussolini and Uncle Joe had the spin doctors to make it look as thought they were turning things around. FDR is often called the man that "Saved the US from communism," but he also saved it from fascism to some extent. Home grown fascistoids include: many "America First"ers, the isolationist organization started by Charles Lindbergh; Detroit's Father Coughlin (perhaps more of Christian Corporatist a la Salazar and Franco); and the rather ludicrous "Silver Shirts," a left coast anti-semitic organization whose inspiration is clear. Probably more Americans found things to admire in the Soviet Union; they payed for their naive optimism 20 years later when Joe McCarthy began to label them as Communist sympathizers etc. I could talk about this stuff for days and days given the opportunity. Jeff From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Abel Lindburg [abel_123@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 7:17 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Betrayer Davide Mana prophetically scribed: > The double-dealing agent will feel a profound feel of isolation. Excellent point. Perhaps this could also be a vector for Hastur, and especially around mythos goodies. Perhaps things would "find" him, causing the betrayer to become even more influenced and wind up in Carcosa. "Agent Zaphod is gone! We should go find him!" "Uh...later." Abel "Jester to the King in Yellow" Lindburg From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Robert Thomas [ThomasR@Cardiff.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:13 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Hi All, > > I read something about this in ATLANTIC MONTHLY a while back. > Story was, Irving sued for damages in a British court, because the > person making the charge had to prove it was right beyond a reasonable > doubt. If he had won, it would not only have set a dangerous > precedent in revisionist circles, it would have been a serious blow > against scholarship in general. Bravo! what it boils down to is the fact that he sued for libel with the expectation of getting cash for the damage to his reputation as a schollar which is how he makes his living. The judge in his ruling effectively told him you can't damage what does not exist. The best part was listening to him on Radio 4 yesterday morning, his case was that he was not denying the holocaust just the part where it was a deliberate plan to exterminate the jewish race, claimed the Gas Chambers at Auscwitz were just showers claiming that there was no proof because they were blown up. The best part was him saying how he was not going to appeal, now he's lost and facing a Ģ2 million legal bill he's planning an appeal claiming basically "the judge failed to understand the cleverness of my argument". Lets hope the appeal cost Ģ4 million and he's bankrupted financially as well as morally. Rob From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Juergen Hubert [snjuhube@pop.rrze.uni-erlangen.de] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:27 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: The Neverending Story (Was: Re: DG: Dreamspaces & Dreamfusions) > -----Original Message----- > > > >BTW, the movies suck. Mused wrote: > > How about the animated cartoons? I haven't seen too many episodes, but what I remember of it struck me as too cute and NICE - which the book never was. Weird maybe, but never nice. First, let's take a look at the Childlike Empress. First she entraps Bastian with the choice of either finding a new name for her or hear the Neverending Story forever in his head - repeating itself. Granted, she WAS a bit desperate at the time... And then she gives Bastian Auryn, that curious artifact (and am I the only one who found the inscription "Do What You Wilt" just a tiny little bit omnious?) and asks him to wish for things while conveniently neglecting to mention that he will lose memories every time he does this. And evidently she only cares about the wishes, and not about the wishers - thousands have lost all their memories and remain stuck in Fantastica, and thousands will indoubedly do so again in the future... And where in the movies is the big battle at the Ivory Tower where Bastian is provoking a bloodbath when he tries to declare himself as Emperor of Fantastica, and nearly kills Atreyu in anger? I tell you, the movies left out all the good bits from the book... - Juergen Hubert From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Juergen Hubert [snjuhube@pop.rrze.uni-erlangen.de] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:31 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Neverending/Dreams Jason R. Armstrong wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:20:34 -0400 "Mused" writes: > >How about the animated cartoons? > > > >-----Original Message----- > >> > >>BTW, the movies suck. > > > All right, I'm a bit curious. did you say, "MovieS", as in, plural? Yup. The first one, while still a pale shadow of the book, at least is more-or-less faithful to the first half of the book. In the second and third movie the story departs radically from its origin... > They made more than one? > And there were cartoons of this tripe as well? > Jesus H. Yig Snakedaddy Christ. > I don't really recall liking the novel too much either, I am afraid to > say. I was about 11 when I tried reading it...is it actually geared > towards adults, and I just assumed that my not liking it, meant it > sucked? IMO it is more of a dark fairy tale than a children's book - and perhaps you should re-read it again now. Like I said, it's my favorite book written by a German author... - Juergen Hubert