From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Davide Mana schrieb: [snip] > About the coke use, now, we'll have to trust the word of a guy called > Benito Mussolini, who reported, quite horrified and not little disgusted, > that Der Fuhrer had used cocaine in front of him during their first meeting. > Apparently a totally buzzed Adolf advertised the mind-clearing efects of > Colombia's most famous export with Mussolini but the Duce - coming from a > country were coke was _the_ ultimate sign of the rich debauched pervert - > courtly declined. My, oh my, if he had just been using coke. > > The whole is in the memoir of one of Mussolini's aides. > I'll try and track the source. > > >He wasn't a hedonist. > > He was a little man. Hey, I'm not tall, but I am hell of a hedonist. [snip] > > Hmmmm, I once shared an apartment with a guy that did iron his ties, boxers > and socks. > Does that count? Yep. > I guiess so, considering that I found natural describing him as a 'Little > Hitler'. It's the first thing that you should come to your mind when meetin this type of people... [snip] > > But I agree with the proposition - nothing's scarier than the faceless > bureaucrat that can do the most incredible amounts of objective evil as a > matter of routine. I think that's what made some of the Nuremberg and later trials so scary: One can somehow identify with villains that commit crimes because they intend to get something special out of it. But villains who "just did what they were ordered to do" are really frightening. ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: The Home Life of Agents Dorsey, Damon R schrieb: > I've been listening in on the list for a while, and haven't had much to > contribute yet since the Delta Green game I run is only a couple months old. > But this is a topic I have some direct experience with, so I figured it was > time to chime in. And you're very welcome, Damon. > > I see a lot of benefits to having characters interact with their family, be > that a wife & kids, or their brothers & sisters, or even their parents. Not > only does it give them something to fight for but it also helps reinforce > the fact that there are people out there living mundane lives. If the > players don't get to see the mundane side of the world it can quickly hurt > the integrity of the game. The supernatural and bizarre is only interesting > if it's clearly the exception rather than the rule . . .otherwise it just > becomes, well, natural. Family can help keep the contrast alive. But you should bear in mind that for the typical DG-Agent the supernatural and bizarre is his or her every day life. Being confronted with the terror of the mythos for a couple of weeks does change it all. Having a family, though normally having a family should comfort you, is a real problem when you have understood that humanity is doomed. I simply cannot accept the thought of separating between professional and private life once you have understood the basic truth of the mythos. > > And while not all characters have spouses or children, most of them will > have parents. Many of them will have brothers and sisters, and probably > nieces & nephews. If you want characters to have a family life without > having to constantly explain away week-long absences to their spouse, then > these kinds of family members are a good way to go. And of course having relatives or just people you are close to makes to the perfect object for blackmail. > > Families can also provide an alternate source of stress to the characters. > Certainly they can be used as adventure hooks: "Damn. The Deep Ones ate my > sister . . .it's payback time!" But if you do too much of this the players > will quickly learn not to get too attached to any NPCs. Aside from being > adventure hooks, families can provide plenty of mundane stress that isn't > easily resolved. There's plenty of dysfunction out there to tap into. Check > out "The Sopranos" for good examples of how everyday family life can > adversely affect people who are accustomed to solving their problems with > guns. Agreed. ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:43 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: The Home Life of Agents In a message dated 4/12/00 5:38:30 PM Central Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << But you should bear in mind that for the typical DG-Agent the supernatural and bizarre is his or her every day life. Being confronted with the terror of the mythos for a couple of weeks does change it all. Having a family, though normally having a family should comfort you, is a real problem when you have understood that humanity is doomed. I simply cannot accept the thought of separating between professional and private life once you have understood the basic truth of the mythos. >> I think it is equally important to realize that an "understanding" of the Mythos does not come in one blinding instant. It comes as one is slowly brought into Delta Green over weeks, months . . . . years? During that time does the agent abstain from his human feelings and desires for family and home? I don't think so, and it sure is a fertile field for making your scenarios strike home HARD. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steve Allison [sallison@netcomuk.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 6:42 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed > And here the conspiracy theory [ or is it a theory? ] starts: There are > journalists who claim that this Dr. Frey is a puppet of the > Bundesverfassungsschutz. They say that he is paid by our agency for the > protection of the constitution to make right wing parties look unsympathetic. Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Bundesverfassungsschutz ? -- Stephen Allison sallison@netcomuk.co.uk From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mused [mused@idirect.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 7:12 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Neverending/Dreams 26. Want the title list? I work for the company that made that shite -----Original Message----- From: Eckhard Huelshoff To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Date: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 2:54 AM Subject: Re: DG: Neverending/Dreams Jason R. Armstrong schrieb: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:20:34 -0400 "Mused" writes: > >How about the animated cartoons? > > > >-----Original Message----- > >> > >>BTW, the movies suck. > > > All right, I'm a bit curious. did you say, "MovieS", as in, plural? > They made more than one? > And there were cartoons of this tripe as well? > Jesus H. Yig Snakedaddy Christ. There were at least 3 movies [ I think of even 4 ] and there was a cheap animated series of 20something episodes. ECKHARD ObDG: During the "DG:The Movie"-Thread somebody came up with the idea that a crappy, high-budget hollywood movie might be in interest of DG, since it makes the idea of the existence of such a thing like DG seem ridiculous. I guess a badly made cartoon show would be an even better instrument for this. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 7:00 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Developing Wa (was Pissing in the Pool) In a message dated 4/11/00 5:31:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << Wasn't it Charles the Wise that said, had he been present on the Day of Creation, he could have given God a pair of good advices? Whatever you do, there will always be a creep that will pop up and say he'd have done it better. Talk is cheap. But again, I do not think the wild speculations that appeared on this list so far should be interpreted that way. >> They shouldn't be, but they can be. As semi-objective readers, we pass over a statement like "let's hope ODH doesn't fall into that trap" or even "I have misgivings about the possibility of ..." and think nothing of it. But the comment wasn't about a work-in-progress of *yours*. Here's the proper sort of conversation to have with the author of a work-in-progress: You: How's it going? Author: mumble You: [either commiserate or show elation depending on the tone of the mumble] I can't wait. You won't find this in Miss Manners and it's not official. Instead of thinking of it as some dutiful social ritual, think of it as the best tactic for Making Friends And Influencing People. And remember, your natural rights to spew whatever crosses your mind to all and sundry have not really been stifled, because you can still do what thou wilt. Just use it when the work-in-progress under the spotlight is being discussed in the author's presence, if you will. Now, some people try the empathy check, then head on regardless because they, personally, don't mind (or think they don't mind) criticism in public. In public. In public. In public. More power to you, I wish I was like that at times. But I'm not. Disagree with everything I say in private, and my response is usually "hmmm, I never saw it that way." If the criticism is valid, I might even change my nasty ways if the arguments are presented entertainingly. Have the same dialogue with me in public and you only have some of my attention, the rest is dedicated to calculating how much English to put on my response when I spike it back at you. I used to think this was because I Lacked Character because I was a Bad Person. Then I discovered the Kiersey Temperament Sorter and found that a small percentage of the population feels the same way I do. It's part of the profile and therapy won't "cure" it. I can change my response to the stimulus (and have, mostly), but I cannot change how I feel about it. I/ENTP (I'm an introverted extrovert or vice versa) in particular are prone to this, but it is typical of the NT (Promethean) profile in general. So I am not alone even if there is elbow room. What this means is that of the class of all people, as many as 20% of them feel this way to some degree. Those who feel that a mail list dedicated to a game should include critiques of the game and it's modules are probably wondering where this leaves them. I hope all it does is make you proofread before posting, toss out a few "is"s and replace with a few "I"s. If some chapter wasn't your cup of tea, maybe hold off on that revelation until you've got something more to say about it than "I don't like it." Did you not like it to the point of distraction, or do you simply not see yourself using it? In short, what value is added by your critique? And is the DGML the best forum for it? Criticism is as much an art form as the works under the knife. Let me carefully enunciate that I am not aiming this at anyone in particular *or* general. I have seen no signs of malice or the critic's disease on this list. If I did I'd address it offline and no one would be reading this. I believe that if some offend, it is with their good will. Read interviews with writers. If you look carefully, very few talk about the actual process of writing. They have a canned response for that lame "where do you get your ideas" question and then segue into why they did this or that, but you will find damn few who will talk about the actual contortions they go through behind the keyboard. That's because it's private. Go ahead, come up behind a writer at work, notice the unconscious move to cover the screen. Here's the key: think of the creative process as masturbation. After the giggling dies down, look closer. It's private and goes on mostly in the practitioner's head. It's hard to share the process with loved ones because of it's private, personal nature. So imagine how you'd feel if someone commented on your masturbating. "I hope it's as good as the last one" gets weird, and "How's it going?" is distracting to annoying. And "I hope you don't forget to include..." is *your* fantasy, feel free to work on it by yourself. Find a Norwegian to watch. Here's one of the cool parts about being on this list and having the authors read your commentary. In Rules of Engagement, Alphonse has a code phrase for putting Casa Alphonse into defense mode. He calls out a phrase familiar to readers of the Illuminatus Trilogy. Now, I'm the guy what brought up the 23 Enigma on this list, but I know that I wasn't the only one who read the books. I figured that the writers of a conspiracy type game would have read them. I doubt that I inspired that line in ROE. It might very well have been written before I ever showed up here. BUT, I do know that somewhere during the editing process, when that line came up, John Tynes knew that somewhere under the palm trees a long-haired leaping gnome would particularly enjoy that line. How often do you have that sort of experience while reading? Mark McFadden Typing with both hands. Never hurt (or annoy) people by accident. This is one of the first steps in developing wa. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Bruno Di Pentima [kranondp@usa.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 9:09 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Shi*! My players sucks! Lurking mode: off (again) Hello Well, my problem this time is very simple, I guess that you can just read the subject and skip the body of this message. They used to play better, but we made a stop in my DG campaign (and played some Ravenloft) for about 4 months... and when we continue the campaign, big surprise... they just suck! I don't understand it, they've forgot how to play.... maybe they where abducted by the Mi-Go, and this is just the result of their experiments. Anyway, I need to get some (complete) info on tecnologies that they can use for field investigation (I am running Dead Letters and I told them to make an Idea roll, just to imagine they didn't have to walk on ABC facility to make a map of the exterior. They couldn't think for themselves of taking some photos from the air, or just getting some satellite's shots.). One of the players asked me for info on the resources they can get from the government on spy technology. If anyone can give me an url about this, I'll be very grateful. Any other comment or suggestion is also welcome. -- Bruno Di Pentima kranondp@usa.net Santa Fe -- Argentina "No esta muerto lo que puede yacer eternamente, y con extranos evos puede morir hasta la muerte" H. P. Lovecraft From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jeff Ewing [ambjpe@gis.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:12 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > ObDG: Try a really boring arsehole as a main villain of your campaign. A leading > cultists that irons his boxer shorts and handkerchiefs. Four words for you, my possibly Fox-deprived German friend: "The Mayor on _Buffy_." Jeff From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:05 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents I think George Smiley is a good example of the home life of agents. His wife is screwing everything that moves and everyone thinks he shouldn't divorce her because her upper class station is above his. Phil ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:02 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Pre-War Germany Also check out the film, "The Serpent's Egg" Directed by Ingmar Bergman and starring David Carradine. No...that is NOT a typo. Phil Posehn On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:44:59 -0000 "Crossingham, Adam" writes: > For a drier, more historical approach to pre-WW2 Germany, or rather > Berlin, > try "A Dance Between Flames: Berlin Between the Wars" > by Anton Gill. I'd recommend it if you can find it. > > -- > Adam Crossingham > "I have a cunning plan m'lord" > Home e-mail: zodiac@theblackseal.org > Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual > > > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:35 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents In a message dated 4/12/00 10:30:08 PM Central Daylight Time, paposehn@juno.com writes: << I think George Smiley is a good example of the home life of agents. His wife is screwing everything that moves and everyone thinks he shouldn't divorce her because her upper class station is above his. >> A good example of an agent's "dysfunctional" life for sure. Another example is the misuderstanding between Jack Riley and his wife when Riley is looking after the door gunner (from Clear and Present Danger)'s widow and family in Sum of All Fears, and it is allowed to leak to his wife, making her think he is having an affair. - An example of how some might patch it up and continue life together. The juggling act of family and DG as a livlihood will find as many solutions (and failures) as there are characters facing the situation. It makes good fodder for the game - if you have actors in the character's parts as opposed to "roll" players. That is something else to discuss here - the nature of "Role" playing and theater. Is the RPG really just a kind of informal drama of improvisational nature? Or is it something else? From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents In a message dated 4/12/00 2:55:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, forvalaka@juno.com writes: << On an interesting note, one of my friends said that he would come home and occasionally find a card left by the facility's security people informing him that his apartment had been searched in a routine spot check. >> In a former life, I made a spur-of-the-moment decision to attend a karate tournament in Ensenada over the weekend. I told no one at work. Since Mexico is another country where I might talk to non-Americans without oversight, I had a polygraph test waiting for me on Monday. Mark McFadden Doesn't play that anymore. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Cc: al.foitag@warnerbros.com; maria.thompson@warnerbros.com; thomas.sanford@warnerbros.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed In a message dated 4/12/00 11:43:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, EdDrWho@aol.com writes: << > ObDG: Try a really boring arsehole as a main villain of your campaign. A > leading > cultists that irons his boxer shorts and handkerchiefs. What's wrong with that, I ask? >> Someone once observed that anal types seldom seek therapy; they are sure that *they* are not in need of it. However, those around them do seek therapy for stress. So maybe having the villain be a complete anal type, not merely neat, would create a jittery stressed-out and inappropriately violent organization. Imagine Stalin as an anal micro-manager. Mark McFadden It's Sphincters and Flatulence Night! As always, ladies get in free BTW, word to the wise. Never combine S&F Night with a wet boxers contest. Just... don't. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed In a message dated 4/12/00 1:38:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << And then there were the rumours about his relation with his female German Shepherd called Blondie.... >> That's it. That tears it. I was going to let all that conquest and genocide slide, but now I'm torqued. He had to mess with the dog. Well, that just makes me go berserk. That's it Schicklegruber; you and me, any time. You've been on my short list ever since that whole Great Berlin Wall of China shit you pulled.. that time. But did you back off after that? No! You just had to mess with the dog. You're toast amigo. Count on it. What's that? Really? Shit. Never mind. Some guy who borrowed Mark McFadden's keyboard From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Hitler's vegetarianism In a message dated 4/12/00 10:56:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, EdDrWho@aol.com writes: << Actually, this is incorrect. The Vegetarian rumour was spread by Hitler's inner circle; Hitler himself enjoyed sausage quite a great deal. Furthermore, Hitler had several sexual liasons, including one with his niece. >> According to an Urban Legend site, this is kinda iffy. As the war progressed, Hitler started getting attacks of gastric pain. Someone recommended a strictly Vegan diet as the gentlest on the system. So he became a vegetarian strictly for health reasons. I'm not so sure about that gentlest on the system stuff, maybe he got the advice from an astrologer. As everyone who is or has been close to a Vegan knows, all that fiber and legumes produces more flatulence than any single person should ever produce in one lifetime IMHO. Combine that diet and high altitude and you can create a micro-ecology with the windows closed. At high altitude, it doesn't even work up a good poot, it sort of *sighs* out in a continual exhalation of profound methane angst. Stricken with ennui, it creeps down the pants leg and takes root in shag carpeting, fermenting and plotting against the "Solids". The Odour Out Of Spice. I saw a part of a documentary that told the stories of the various 20th century totalitarians through their diaries and those of intimates. When they got to the vegetarian segment, the film is of Hitler on a platform with his posse behind him. Hitler waves his arm to make a point. The narration mentions the flatulence and the film slows to a crawl as (IIRC) Goering fans the air in front of himself with a folder, smiling extra wide and trying to pass it off as enthusiasm. But his eyes looked kind of fluttery. ObDG: Oh, like Delta Green agents don't fart? Mark McFadden Doesn't. *I* perform an alimentary cough. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed In a message dated 4/12/00 4:51:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << If such rules are not obeyed this CAN lead to the result of the accused staying a free, even though everybody knows that he's guilty. I do not want to be a bitch, but I find calling such liberties or rather the ignorance and disrespect concerning such often essential rights and liberties "minor technicalities" a bit difficult, since these laws protect the innocent as well. This hurts the little defense lawyer in me ;-) But here I'll stop my rant about the philosopies of criminal procedures. >> In one of Jefferson's letters (IIRC), he stated that a) the principle that a citizen *is* innocent *until* proven guilty is the most fundamental piece of Common Law's foundation, and b) letting a guilty man go free is better for society as a whole than putting an innocent man in jail. I know, I know. Serial killers running rampant, organized crime unchecked, gangbanging 24/7, dogs and cats sleeping together, a shitstorm of Biblical proportions. Given. But - if the system allows innocent people to be punished, how does that change *everyone's* relationship to the Law? The Law is no longer above reproach, and since it represents the side with the Armed Forces, it gets a little scarey. Being absolutely innocent is no longer a comfort, it guarantees you precisely nothing. Even Free Speech can't fix that. The Law changes from equalizer and impartial arbiter to another sword hanging by a slippery thread over *everyone's* head. When the citizens cannot trust the Law to make things right (protect the innocent and punish the guilty, in that order), they truly cannot trust anything from their society. One of my pastimes is reading the police section of local papers, seeing who was arrested recently for what, get a feel for the neighborhood. In the 80s I noticed a trend in Orange County papers; a large number of entries appearing where the crime listed was "resisting arrest", with no other crime. Do you see the inplications? A retired judge once explained it to me. He said that when you peel away the precedence and add-ons and exceptions, the fundamental philosophy of American-descended-from-English Common Law is that the *only* person present at the time of arrest who knows the innocence or guilt of the suspect for a *fact* is the suspect. AND, an innocent citizen is allowed to resist wrongful arrest, in fact, is allowed to resist *wrongful* arrest with force. Lethal force. The right is considered that important and fundamental by fuzzy-headed academics, starry-eyed liberals and the Founding Fathers. And they got the idea from some Englishmen who put it all on the line to force a king to sign his name on one. Kids, don't try this at home. So you see, logically, there should never ever ever be anyone arrested and charged with resisting arrest *and nothing else*. It's against the rules if the game you are playing is America. The original vanilla game, before all the supplements and "upgrades". Incidentally, if anyone was about to respond with a list of all the myriad ways in which this philosophy just won't work today, and some compromises have to be made for the greater good, and that the ideas are just wrong-headed and yada yada... first, look closer. I'm describing a statement made by Thomas Jefferson in a letter. I go on to restate his reasons he gave for that statement in the same letter in a condensed form. I repeat what a judge told me and why he believed it, and he's the one who brought up lethal force. Everything after that is mine. Oh yes, and thank you for assuming I'm such a mouthbreathing inbred cretin that I can't see the problems with that ideal and reality without your help. I don't know how I ever got by without you to point out the obvious to me. Consider yourselves replied to. ObDG: the game wasn't DG, but it was about a conspiracy of LEOs hunting down the inexplicable off the record. One was an FBI agent named Dennis who preferred to be called Denise. Years later, he picked up the nickname "Spooky", but that was long after the game. We were tending to get LARPish because the, uh, DM was chronically unprepared. Consequently there was much sitting around the campfire (a gas fireplace) in character and philosophising. Deputy Hawk was having trouble reconciling the Law and what he perceived his job to be. I was playing a USAF officer. Most of that rap came from Harry Truman. If your players are the type who enjoy that sort of thing, instead of taking a break when the Keeper has to regroup, take them somewhere safe and have them take a break in character. Hunkered down in a motel suite with some Scotch and a need to unwind. Maybe they'll come up with a backstory just to stay in the conversation. Sometimes they will reveal undiscovered depth, like Harry Truman. Mark McFadden Considers it an ideal that should be made possible. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: World War Two chemical weapons In a message dated 4/12/00 3:33:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, theherald@hotmail.com writes: << That was many years ago (I was nine at the time), but why the recollection of the unsuccessful attempt on JFK in the spring? Misunderstanding of news of a different shooting? Alternate timeline? >> Did you feel a tingly, rushy effect, like a shiver where someone "walks on your grave"? Welcome to the War, soldier. Will that be Spiders, or Snakes? Mark McFadden Cats or Dogs? From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed In a message dated 4/12/00 3:38:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << > >He wasn't a hedonist. > > He was a little man. Hey, I'm not tall, but I am hell of a hedonist. >> Never mind *tall* unless you are lying down. Mark McFadden The Human Sundial From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed In a message dated 4/12/00 3:03:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << But I agree with the proposition - nothing's scarier than the faceless bureaucrat that can do the most incredible amounts of objective evil as a matter of routine. I tried to describe something like that in my old 'Grey Eminence' piece, but I'm still not satisfied about that. >> Try placing him at Whole Earth Enterprises. Absolutely nothing Mythos related, and scarey as hell. Someday, I'd love to see an Eyes Only on WEE. I use WEE like this: The Headquarters is staffed with the most devious predators and scavengers that HR can find. They control the myriad and ever shifting lines of control and ownership and responsibility. Below them are the individual companies under the WEE umbrella. Upon acquisition they are instructed in the corporate culture and everyone is stressed by the sweeping changes in personnel and structure and their uncertainties about their own chances. The conquering executives are remote and generally speak only to the top brass behind closed doors. No one believes anything said in a memo anymore, because every promise made or reassurance given has been broken, especially during that ugly takeover. Or mysterious "hand over" that happened over the weekend and the old owner is now incommunicado on his yacht. The stresses and insecurity and well-founded paranoia put the employees in an altered state of consciousness. The organizational doublethink becomes like a religion; those who believe prosper, and those who don't can hope to aspire to middle management by their 50s. Organizational doublethink comes to resemble the worst of organized religion, with cynical climbers and control freaks winking at each other as they quote chapter and sidebar. In an atmosphere of business as war and Darwinian justifications for actions, some young turks looking up or silverbacks digging in might seek a shortcut, an edge, some leverage, connections, a sure thing. If any of it has some Mythos to it, it's just in time because for some reason WEE sold the company a few weeks ago and things have been hectic. What kind of name is Soze anyhow? Mark McFadden Just one cog in a large not terribly efficient machine. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jason R. Armstrong [gerwalkveritech@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:24 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:32:24 +0200 Davide Mana writes: >But I agree with the proposition - nothing's scarier than the faceless >bureaucrat that can do the most incredible amounts of objective evil >as a >matter of routine. >I tried to describe something like that in my old 'Grey Eminence' >piece, >but I'm still not satisfied about that. > Please be at ease, the character was perfect. One of the first things I noticed, in fact, when printing out the EH stuff. Very, very effective. Ugly, poisonous man..."He fucks himself hands her back her carcass". God. xJAYx PS- I will look into the books. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jason R. Armstrong [gerwalkveritech@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:32 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Neverending/Dreams > >Another very good "Dreamlands" writer is Jonathan Carrol. Try "The >Land Of >Laughs" and "A Child Across The Sky". > >The GloveCleaner > You know, I had gotten into him only in the last several years. "Land of Laughs" and "From the Teeth of Angels" were great. I wish I'd known of him earlier in life. I could have been reading _so_ much good stuff, rather than the fucking Piers Anthony Bio of a Space Tyrant Gary Gygax Greyhawk goober horseshit. Sigh. xJAYx ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Don Juneau [djuneau@io.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: World War Two chemical weapons On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Michael Layne wrote: > On 11 April, 2000 AD, Don Juneau had this to say about WWII > Chemical Weapons & Alternate Universes: > > >On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Daniel Harms wrote: > > > > > >I have a different vague recollection about gassing Iwo Jima (or some > > > >other Last Stand Fortress) and announcing that it was the result of a > > > >Death Ray Secret Weapon... > > > > > > Aha! So YOU were the one! Amazing what you find out on this list... > > > >Hmmm? Did I sideslip into an alternate history again? This incarnation > >enjoys noir movies, big-band music, and big ol' chrome-laden boats of > >automobiles, but isn't of the correct vintage to have done this... > > > >Or just that Vague Recollection that I might have posted before? I > >*really* wish I could remember the source... > > My guess is that you read of it in Stanley Lovell's book "Of Spies and > Strategems", but did so years ago, and didn't remember the book itself. > I've done that, myself, on occasion... Actually, no.. never heard of that book. Might have been a comment in VIXEN 03 (title?) by Clive Cussler, or something else in that approximate era. (Been a while since I've read it.) > Of course, I'm not ruling out an alternate timeline as the source (One > where the military did not veto the suggestion of the head of the OSS' "Q > Branch"). I wonder if sometimes, we apparently do slip between alternate > realities... See "He Walked Behind The Horses", by H. Beam Piper. (Collected in PARATIME, I think.) "For A Foggy Night" by Larry Niven, too. (ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS, possibly N-SPACE or PLAYGROUNDS OF THE MIND.) There's quite a few others... "stumbling" into an alternate is a popular concept. (Suggested as an interesting end to "Bad Moon Rising", in THE GREAT OLD ONES.) > I vaguely remember hearing, in the spring of 1963, of JFK getting shot > and wounded in an unsuccessful assassination attempt. Hmmm. Based on the encyclopedia-research aspect, you may have found Franklin D. Roosevelt's wounding - FDR & JFK may have been blended by a young mind... ObDGsemi: OK, with the actions of the Great Race, we know that past observers can affect our present/their future. One would assume (or at least *I* would) that the future aspects of the Yithians could perhaps fiddle the past as well, with the same random aspect as seen in THE SHADOW OUT OF TIME. "Bad Moon Rising" allows a possible cyclical timestream, and to some extent temporal travelling is possible via Gate (and Hound of Tindalos?)... if actual linear "go-back-and-mess-stuff-up-then-return" time-travel is possible, there will be those who, for some reason, are unaffected by the "edit". (FENG SHUI has a nice take on this.) However, what will the reactions of people be when they start *insisting*, with great detail, that Robert F. Kennedy was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan in Los Angeles when *everyone* knows that he was the first US President to die in a plane crash? And that the details match a moldy old operations plan sitting in some "black" file somewhere? The cliche of "The Man Who Knew Too Much" *really* jumps up when you get into this kind of fiddling; take any half-assed, vague, or impossible rumour or urban legend - JFK hiring the Mafia to murder Marilyn Monroe or whatever - and let the PCs start to deal with it. (Make sure the McGuffin has some "useful" aspect to it, as well; deep knowledge of MJ12 and the like.) Maybe run a "ripple" through, every so often, as they approach the focus-point of the temporal disturbance... all that great Carcosa/KiY/Ettchibon-Mythos is fodder here; "A bus passes, and blocks your view of the subject. When it passes, you see him... dressed differently. In fact, the entire street has changed. Didn't DeSoto go out of business? Then why are the new 2000 models on display?" Flicker things back and forth as they look around. If they finally get "locked in" to the alternate, work to get them worrying, "If we fix it, are we trapped here?" Perhaps they *are* trapped there, for a while.. or longer, if you feel up to an alternate-timeline campaign. (This is heavily work-intensive, however. If MacArthur *did* help precipitate a military coup in '30-whatever, or President Lindbergh's Isolationist stance kept us out of the European War in the '40s, there's a helluva lot of "editing" to do, especially as you get closer to "now".) This works as a "red herring", tho, just as well. *Sure* his details match "closely held" data... by luck, perhaps, or stories told in bars or asylums. But when they finally follow up on the "meat", and raid the "secret biological storage facility" or whatever, it's a kids' birthday party or whayever your eveil, perverse, Keeper's mind comes up with... maybe even "Mister X" it, cleaning up any possible trace - even if there really *was* nothing there - just to be sure. Leave 'em wondering... "Was there *really* a C.H.U.D. colony there? Or was it all coincidence?" Pry open the players' minds and poke around inside. Have fun. And then, much later, throw a Luck roll and have one survivour find a minor bit of evidence. A silver 1974 Kennedy quarter, for instance. Something *just* real enough... to keep them up nights. To hurt their minds. To someday be the last straw, that makes them eat their gun some black, quiet night when the thoughts of things that might have been (or may be again) keep sleep at bay... Damn, I'm cheerful Don From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:20 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed In a message dated 4/12/00 6:22:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << My personal paranoia of the moment is - there's a lot of effort going in a general 'softening' of the public image of the WW2 bad guys. And a lot of it passes for academical work but is in fact, as the British judge ruled, the old problem rearing its ugly little head in a more politically correct and acceptable way. I find all this sinister in the extreme. There's a ghost haunting Europe and now it's starting to rattle its chains. >> First off, I want to again recommend: * The Beast Reawakens: Fascism's Resurgence from Hitler's Spymasters to Today's Neo-Nazi Groups and Right-Wing Extremists by Martin A. Lee (ISBN 0-415-92546-0) I consider it the best book on the history and structure of the neo-Nazi/Fascist movement(s) I have encountered so far. If you have any interest in the subject, get it now. You won't be disappointed and probably will be more than a little surprised at its revelations (I know I was). ***WARNING-MINOR KAROTECHIA SPOILERS BELOW*** As for what Holocaust Revision and similar movements/causes mean for the Karotechia, I say that it is the final toppings on the plans of Der Fuhrer come to fruition. By rejecting or simply ignoring the Holocaust, you allow a generation to arise seeing it as nothing more than simple numbers. What does 6 million dead mean to the average student today. It is another dry fact to be filed away for tests and then forgotten. Unless you choose to study this subject, the true horror is quickly passed over and becomes just another item in the distant past. Add to this the neo-Nazi/Fascist movements towards extreme nationalism and you have nations poised to repeat the same horrible tragedies from 60 years ago. The neo-Nazi/ Fascists aren't completely stupid, either. There are networks all over the world, communicating via the Internet and by more conventional means. There are alliances forming up in these networks between unlikely partners (Germany, Russia, The U.S., France and so on), each spreading the new gospel of Nazism. They have revised their rhetoric a bit and are gaining more followers. They have their underlying anti-Semitism (which seems to always be in vogue) coupled with pushes for national identity, anti-immigration laws, and a host of similar themes. Like Hitler in the 1930s, these topics veil the truth and draw in mainstream support. Globalization and technology further add attractiveness to their message with unemployment and alienation pushing people towards something they can belong to and believe in. This nationalism further tears the world apart, leading to oppression, tyranny and war. What does that mean in the DG world? From its point of view, the Karotechia has already been successful and won. The plots it has laid for the past 60 years have already begun to bloom. Sure, whatever else he can get out of them will be icing on the cake. After all, it doesn't hurt to have an occult strike force under your direct command. Still, if DG uncovers the Karotechia, destroys La Estancia and kills the Triumvirate, they have done no more than put a minor crimp in the plans. Each of these groups is an independent cell, now. They already have their mission and will carry it out. The loss of the Karotechia itself will deny logistical and occult support but they will still move on. Just as in my opinion, World War Two was the major changing point in human history and the first herald of the Endtimes; the actions of the Karotechia are the opening of the floodgates on those times. Their legacy has been achieved; the cult of Azathoth that Der Fuhrer envisions is already here. They don't realize what they are really worshipping and without the Karotechia they might have lost their direct connection to the mythos but in the long run, what does that matter? They will further isolate and alienate the population. Oppression will reign and terror will feed into the chaos. Wars will erupt, consuming millions, even if it isn't another world war, a few dozen brushfire wars will suffice. In the end, men will become like the Great Old Ones, killing in the name of their nationalist gods who are just another facet of the mythos. Anyway, just another rant… -Dave K From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:19 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: World War Two chemical weapons In a message dated 4/12/00 9:47:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, djuneau@io.com writes: << A silver 1974 Kennedy quarter, for instance. >> A silver 1960 Kennedy quarter would be even more shocking. Mark McFadden From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of DocHopt@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:47 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: The Call of B'harni The Big C and Deep Purple, in cahoots? Don't say I didn't warn you. http://home.earthlink.net/~bcbull/bharni.htm Hopt loves B'harni too. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 2:04 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Hitler's vegetarianism LizardRoi@aol.com schrieb: > In a message dated 4/12/00 10:56:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, EdDrWho@aol.com > writes: [snip] > I saw a part of a documentary that told the stories of the various 20th > century totalitarians through their diaries and those of intimates. When they > got to the vegetarian segment, the film is of Hitler on a platform with his > posse behind him. Hitler waves his arm to make a point. The narration > mentions the flatulence and the film slows to a crawl as (IIRC) Goering fans > the air in front of himself with a folder, smiling extra wide and trying to > pass it off as enthusiasm. But his eyes looked kind of fluttery. That was definitely filmed outside of Hitler's mountaintop mansion near Berchtesgaden, overlooking the Koenigssee. HIGH ALTITUDE! ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 2:04 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Steve Allison schrieb: > > And here the conspiracy theory [ or is it a theory? ] starts: There are > > journalists who claim that this Dr. Frey is a puppet of the > > Bundesverfassungsschutz. They say that he is paid by our agency for the > > protection of the constitution to make right wing parties look > unsympathetic. > > Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Bundesverfassungsschutz ? Oops, sorry: It's what is translated as "Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution" in DG:Countdown [ page 348 ]. It's basically an agency that tries to defend the FRG from extremist groups [ both left wing, right wing or religious ] and organisations that they see as hostile towards the values you find in our constitution. They do so by watching these organisations or taking a closer look at their publications. ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 2:04 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Jeff Ewing schrieb: > > > Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > > > ObDG: Try a really boring arsehole as a main villain of your campaign. A > leading > > cultists that irons his boxer shorts and handkerchiefs. > > Four words for you, my possibly Fox-deprived German friend: "The Mayor > on _Buffy_." > Actually I thought of him and Principal Seymour Skinner. ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 2:04 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed LizardRoi@aol.com schrieb: [snip] > > One of my pastimes is reading the police section of local papers, seeing who > was arrested recently for what, get a feel for the neighborhood. They publish the names of the arrested???????????????????? BTW: Is it true that in some U.S. states the pictures and photographs of prostitutes' clients are published when they are caught? ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 2:07 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Tickling the Dragon's tail In a message dated 4/11/00 2:25:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, forvalaka@juno.com writes: << I have done this too, both for the "thrill" of looking over the edge and as part of my job ( I designed fire protection sprinkler systems once upon a time). While I did have the thought of what might happen if I fell, I never had a persistent thought of jumping. Do I just lack the "death wish" gene? >> Dunno. Maybe working in high places on a regular basis mundanes the allure. I wonder if the Native Americans who work the high steel because they have no innate fear of heights ever jump to their deaths? How about those single car accidents in the middle of flat nowhere? Someone driving alone at night with nothing to see but the lines, radio wavering in and out. If they just fell asleep at the wheel why did the car hit the only tree between the road and the horizon? Or, I suppose it could be a government conspiracy. Everyone on Earth *is* only six degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon *and* JFK. Someone else inexplicably wrote: "I've been on this situation while up on mountains and, no, I never felt the urge to jump." I would think it axiomatic that people who climb mountains for fun are kind of self-selecting for immunity from the call from that direction. "Bent knees, yes, yes: but that's mechanical instinctual stabilising reflex - lowers Centre of Gravity." Ahem. Thank you for explaining this instinctual reflex to me. As I staggered and wobbled through my daily life, the concept of the center of gravity and how to maintain it never occurred to me. I'm sure my katas will be ever so much better now that you've told me about this whole "balance" thing. Truly, you have opened new worlds for me. Hmmm. Perhaps too subtle. :-P Have someone push you by surprise so you flex to regain balance. Note the kinesthesia. Now prepare to jump. Note the kinesthesia. Notice the difference? I did. YMMV. Mark McFadden Has a center of gravity that light can't escape from. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 3:41 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Tickling the Dragon's tail [snip] > How about those single car accidents in the middle of flat nowhere? > Someone > driving alone at night with nothing to see but the lines, radio > wavering in > and out. If they just fell asleep at the wheel why did the car hit > the only > tree between the road and the horizon? Mr Murphy is sufficient to explain that. > Or, I suppose it could be a government conspiracy. Everyone on > Earth *is* > only six degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon *and* JFK. 1. My friend Rob 2. Rob was an extra in The Buddy Holly Story with Gary Busey 3. Gary Busey was in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas with Jeanette Goldstein 4. Jeanette Goldstein was in Aliens with Bill Paxton 5. Bill Paxton was in Apollo 13 with Kevin Bacon 1. My college roomie 2. His father was in the Secret Service. 3. His old boss guarded JFK in Washington. Wow, you're right! Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 3:53 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Cc: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed > They publish the names of the arrested???????????????????? It's all public record. Anyone can go see who filed charges and who was arrested. And a prostitute's client is breaking the law by soliciting sex for money, so he is on the list. Any news agency interested in such things could get the list. Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Deirdre M. Brooks [xenya@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 4:03 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Developing Wa (was Pissing in the Pool) LizardRoi@aol.com wrote: > > Here's the proper sort of conversation to have with the author of a > work-in-progress: > > You: How's it going? > Author: mumble > You: [either commiserate or show elation depending on the tone of the > mumble] I can't wait. Yes. :-) > You won't find this in Miss Manners and it's not official. Instead of > thinking of it as some dutiful social ritual, think of it as the best tactic > for Making Friends And Influencing People. And remember, your natural rights > to spew whatever crosses your mind to all and sundry have not really been > stifled, because you can still do what thou wilt. Just use it when the > work-in-progress under the spotlight is being discussed in the author's > presence, if you will. > What this means is that of the class of all people, as many as 20% of them > feel this way to some degree. Indeed. I don't mind so much, but it's easier to have an honest discussion away from a public list. There *are* things I'll say about my work in private that I wouldn't say on a list devoted to that game line. Why? Well, I don't think the list really needs to know - most of it's just not of interest and the rest is not their business. :-) > Those who feel that a mail list dedicated to a game should include critiques > of the game and it's modules are probably wondering where this leaves them. I > hope all it does is make you proofread before posting, toss out a few "is"s > and replace with a few "I"s. If some chapter wasn't your cup of tea, maybe > hold off on that revelation until you've got something more to say about it > than "I don't like it." Did you not like it to the point of distraction, or > do you simply not see yourself using it? In short, what value is added by > your critique? And is the DGML the best forum for it? The most worthless criticism I've *ever* read about any book for any game is "They did X wrong." This is stated as an objective fact in nearly every case, and the hows and whyfores aren't presented. Just "it's wrong." I like reading reviews of products I've worked on so I can see reactions and adjust my writing if my intent didn't come through. Most reviews are worthless in this regard. > Read interviews with writers. If you look carefully, very few talk about the > actual process of writing. They have a canned response for that lame "where > do you get your ideas" question and then segue into why they did this or > that, but you will find damn few who will talk about the actual contortions > they go through behind the keyboard. That's because it's private. Go ahead, > come up behind a writer at work, notice the unconscious move to cover the > screen. It is. For one thing, it's nigh-impossible to encapsulate everything that went into the inspiration for Book A, and that may have *nothing* to do with inspiration for Book B (for example). And yes, it's true about the screen. > Here's the key: think of the creative process as masturbation. After the > giggling dies down, look closer. It's private and goes on mostly in the > practitioner's head. It's hard to share the process with loved ones because > of it's private, personal nature. So imagine how you'd feel if someone > commented on your masturbating. "I hope it's as good as the last one" gets > weird, and "How's it going?" is distracting to annoying. And "I hope you > don't forget to include..." is *your* fantasy, feel free to work on it by > yourself. Find a Norwegian to watch. This is an interesting insight (a unique way to put it, too). I agree - I've come to a similar conclusion. That came mainly after reading interviews with various actors who discussed how they perceived and portrayed their characters - the process (the bare bones they reveal) is very similar to writing. In both cases, the internal process rarely has anything to do with the final work on screen, stage or in print. It's all a matter of interpretation and the process of getting that interpretation into some kind of tangible results. I hope I'm making some kind of sense. It's better than just saying "me too." Anyway, writers appreciate commentary and hearing how people put their material to use. Writers generally wander off if the feedback is an unending font of negativity - *and* they're not inclined to take your responses into account when working on another book. :-/ Courtesy counts for a lot, even on the net. :-) -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today." -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya