From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Tolga Yanasik [yanasikt@superonline.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 4:56 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! Players : "We'll call the Navy Seals." Keeper : "Ah, come on. You can do it by yourselves." Players : "No, we want Seals from Alphonse." Keeper whispers : "damn..." Did it ever happen that your players reach the end of the campaign, find out where the bad guys are hiding, gather enough proof to bust the place, but didn't show the courage to use the only resource -themselves- for the task of saving the world ? The Mythos is hiding there. Exposure to Mythos is inevitable. You can't call the police or take the SWAT with you. You need to do it in the DG way. So, what will the A cell do ? They have the commanding officer of SEAL team 7, Capt. Forrest James, but what may be the official explanation for the disappearence of Team 7 for a day ? Capt. James : " The guys needed a break. What's wrong with a single day holiday in Hawaii ?" And what will you tell if there are casualties ? Plane crashed ? Boat sank ? Also there's another problem with this. If the players call the Seals or an equivalent force from DG, all they will do is to sit back and listen to the keeper tell how the special force kicks the bad guys' ass. I think it's quite difficult to integrate the players into the raid since the Seals won't like the idea of going in with some amateurs around. Thanks for any comments, Tolga From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:06 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: OT: steampunk ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Turner > At 10:36 PM 4/13/00 +0100, you wrote: > >Take the time axis as down-to-up. The human race is a tree growing. The > >Yithians prune away a branch that was rubbing the bark off of other branches > >they would rather keep: but the scars on the bark remain. Babbage's > >engine, and what else? > > > > The MiB explained at last!! > > JT If only it were that simple . . . The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jonathan Turner [j.turner@irishnews.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! At 12:55 AM 4/14/00 +0300, you wrote: >Did it ever happen that your players reach the end of the campaign, find >out where the bad guys are hiding, gather enough proof to bust the place, >but didn't show the courage to use the only resource -themselves- for >the task of saving the world ? > Well, I certainly know as a player in a Millennium's End game (bit different, mind you) when we realised the bad guys had fissionable material we said screw it and let FEMA go after them - much to the referee's horror. In my own campaign the PCs have access to some meaty back-up and they're considering unleashing it on a building used by some Special K stooges. Fortunately, at least one of my PCs is an SAS trooper, so he would be in on the action at the very least. A few solutions are: 1) Bring it to them first... Sorcerors and Mythos creatures with intelligence and magical ability have access to plenty of spells related to scrying, precognition and so on. Hell, some of them can see the future and the past! The plans of mere mortals could well be discovered in time for a pre-emptive strike or a warning. 2) The special forces guys don't necessarily have to kick the bad guys' asses... things could go poorly if the Mythos is involved... 3) Give the PCs something that they themselves must use to swing events in their favour. It might be a lightning gun or a spell that they know will damage or destroy a particular creature. Without them going into the fray, the good guys ain't gonna pull it off. JT From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:09 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: University (was Re:DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed) Davide Mana schrieb: > Greetings. > > Some more exam paranoia, then some on topic stuff, I promise. [snip] > > File under 'shattering experiences': I had one of those shattering experiences today: At 0945am a colleague called me to tell me "Hey, I just received my results, how are yours?". Unfortunately at my part of the town the mailman arrives sometime between 1000am and 1400am. The result was: I was beginning to stand near the window where I can see my postbox at 1000am waiting for the fucking postman. Time passed. At 1115am I called the postal office to ask wether the tour of my part of the town had already been finished. Of course the answer was "No". Thus: I kept on watching my postbox. At 1225pm I knocked at my landlord's door who lives in the same house to ask wether he had already received mail. He did not. At 0120pm my colleague called again. At 0155pm I stopped watching my postbox to....well...to pee [ I had been drinking tea by the gallon while waiting ]. At 0159pm [ I am not kidding, I took a closer look at my watch ] my doorbell rang. It was my landlord. To tell me that the mailman had just put a couple of letters in my postbox. And one of me letters were the results. ObDG: Thus I experienced the Outlook group's "Stress Simulation" 10.8 [snip] > > This reminded me what is almost a classic of British spy fiction and honest > to god spying history - a lot of double agents and spies were headhunted > during their university days. > Also, there's this persisting rumour - of which Len Deighton makes a wide > use - that the British secret community is sort of an extended, glorified > and often blundering Alumni Club. > Given all this, it's pretty curious we have not come up yet with a solid > script for the Oxbridge/Secret Services connection and structure. > Or have we? Well I have to admit the following: About every three months the Bundeswehr [ the German Army ] writes me a letter asking me to rejoin them after the completion of my legal education. [ Might be a result of me really thinking to stay with them during my service ] ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:09 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: University (was Re:DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed) James Holloway schrieb: [snip] > > > Well, at Cambridge, some groups attempt to keep alive the "good old days," > when undergraduates were men and men were rich. This involves forming > strange quasi-secret societies which perform goony initiation things - much > like American fraternities only smaller. Now, I myself was an unsociable > undergraduate, so all I know about these outfits comes from rumor. > > But Cambridge students just love to _join_ things. I don't know why. There > are groups for everything, in a way that just isn't true at most American > universities. I mean, yes, there are lots of student political organizations > at US universities, but I've yet to see the number of societies devoted to > totally frivolous behavior. It's a lot more like an American high school. In Germany you have to make a difference between the universities. There are the traditional and often conservative universities. Many of them are centuries old and most of them have very conservative fraternities [ Some of them are even considered right-wing ]. And then there are the new universities, those that have been built in the 1960s and later, often in cities that have been considered "workers' cities" for more than a century. My law school belonged to one of the new universities, the University of Bochum. In those universities the traditional conservative fraternities don't have a chance, since these new universities are traditionally left wing. But we did have many a group to join. Examples from the real life: "The Gay Dancing Class", "Lesbians talking about the image of women in the American cinema", "The Black African males who seek German women Group" and "The Support Cuba / Cuba Libre Group". Well. I didn't join a single one of those groups. > > In fact, at Cambridge, I knew the guy who was head of the "Disciples of > Cthulhu" club, which was listed under "religious" in the societies handbook. I guess that probably you might find a "Lesbians that adore Cthulhu Group". ObDG: A fraternity that is in fact a cult? Lesbian feminist students that get their power from the great mother? ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:16 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: OT: steampunk ----- Original Message ----- From: Davide Mana > Leonardo da Vinci. > Ah! Good luck with your exam when it comes .. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:30 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! Tolga Yanasik schrieb: > Players : "We'll call the Navy Seals." > Keeper : "Ah, come on. You can do it by yourselves." > Players : "No, we want Seals from Alphonse." > Keeper whispers : "damn..." > > Did it ever happen that your players reach the end of the campaign, find > out where the bad guys are hiding, gather enough proof to bust the place, > but didn't show the courage to use the only resource -themselves- for > the task of saving the world > > The Mythos is hiding there. Exposure to Mythos is inevitable. You can't > call the police or take the SWAT with you. You need to do it in the DG > way. > > So, what will the A cell do ? Well, my first point: I would try to avoid such situations. Never get them to get used to calling the SEALs, or the USMC, or artillery support, tactical nuclear weapons or whatever. If they never get used to such help, they won't ask for it [ except perhaps under the most extreme circumstances]. But of course there may well be those situations where your player do not only need but deserve support. But a whole SEAL TEAM, Special Operations Group Delta, a USMC Infantry Division? Don't think so. Probably if they are about to challenge Azathoth himself they might get such sort of aid. But will it help? Not much I think. And I do not like the idea of being the support arm of DG-teams B-Z. Sure: They will do what they can, if it is necessary, BUT: Remember this is an illegal conspiracy!!! ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:27 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! This is exactly what I was talking about in the ODH thread... but there shouldn't be such a problem with modern-day DG. Why? Read the section in _Rules of Engagement_ where the DG cell is trying to coordinate a raid on the MJ-12 complex under charges of "environmental crimes". Using their official pull to bring in the cavalry is not only complicated, it can also easily turn into a clusterfuck of Waco proportions. The PCs just can't "call in the SEALs" - they need a legitimate reason, even in a military action where probable cause isn't an issue. Add into this that Alphonse is loathe to allow any evidence of the Mythos slipping into the public consciousness, and hence would be very unlikely to approve any op that brings in significant government involvement. Also add in that any such involvement also may spark the interest of other enemies (just because DG has an agent in the SEALs doesn't mean that MJ-12, PISCES, or even the Karotechia might as well). Also add in that SEALs are great for mowing down cultists, they are less useful with actual Mythos beasties and can become a downright threat if you have a team of well-trained well-armed commandoes pumped on adrenaline suddenly become homicidally-insane around you. Delta Green is an illegal conspiracy. Played in such a manner, DG agents only advantage over a regular 1990s Investigator is access to greater database of information (that is pitifully small and full of false information) and some quasi-legal contacts (that can only be used sparingly and are inherently fraught with danger). Gil Trevizo furrylogic@mindspring.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of James Holloway [j_holloway26@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:39 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: University (was Re:DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed) > > >In Germany you have to make a difference between the universities. There >are >the traditional and often conservative universities. Many of them are >centuries >old and most of them have very conservative fraternities [ Some of them are >even >considered right-wing ]. Cambridge is one of the oldest universities in Europe, and takes itself far too seriously as a result. It is futher subdivided into 32 colleges, each of which has a somewhat different character. It also has a long and comical relationship with the intelligence services. Many of the KGB's most successful spies went to Trinity College - the dumb one who got caught went to Trinity Hall (not related). I myself went to the "counterintelligence" college, where we have the guy who caught the notorious "Fifth Man" - like twenty years too late. Which should tell you something about Corpus. Or the state of British intelligence in general. Or something. The neat thing about a setting like this (it's also true for some of the older universities on the US East Coast) is that a lot of strange and pointless stuff is done because it's old. If they didn't do all the strange and pointless old stuff, Cambridge bigwigs feel, they would lose their top ranking... students will thus not be surprised when you ask them to "put this device on your head" or "stare at this mirror for an hour" or "throw these strangely carved stones into the river" as long as you tell them it's been done that way for 500 years. -- James Holloway "And yet in the end, for all his pains, he only knows how to play a game." - Baldesar Castiglione, "The Book of the Courtier" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of James Holloway [j_holloway26@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! >This is exactly what I was talking about in the ODH thread... but >there shouldn't be such a problem with modern-day DG. Why? Read the >section in _Rules of Engagement_ where the DG cell is trying to >coordinate a raid on the MJ-12 complex under charges of "environmental >crimes". Using their official pull to bring in the cavalry is not >only complicated, it can also easily turn into a clusterfuck of Waco >proportions. > Viz. the example in the New Age campaign, where PCs who bring in backup may be subjected to a media disaster of epic proportions. -- James Holloway "And yet in the end, for all his pains, he only knows how to play a game." - Baldesar Castiglione, "The Book of the Courtier" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:37 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Greetings some more. Hard to get some sleep - Flesh+Blood's running on the TV. JT writes >From David Irving denying the Holocaust to getting your dick chomped off by >a whore in a moving car. Please, Davide, tell me you're saving this thread! I doubt even I can save this. But I'm keeping a copy, if that's what you meant. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: University (was Re:DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed) I'm here again. >> But Cambridge students just love to _join_ things. I don't know why. > > >Practice for real status games. Primate 101. I guess you get that sort of thing in most 'varsities. It's just the exterior forms that change. >This came through in the Aubrey/Maturin stories as well. The greatest lure >that can be used to recruit a potential agent is the lure of _joining_ the >select group of people who _know_ what is going on. And when you get in the Mythos field, there's an even greater 'going on' to be in on to. Great possibilities lay open - fancy running a scenario not about defusing some Mythos thread, but actually baiting the best elements as potential future friendlies/agents. Now that one needs ROLEplaying. [incidentally - thanks for adding yet another author to my 'to read' list] Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of James Holloway [j_holloway26@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:47 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents The Keeper of the DG campaign I'm in (hi Jeff!) _forced_ us to have family stuff in our lives... as a Friendly, it hasn't been that big a problem for my character, but it nearly resulted in one character bowing out of a scenario altogether because he only got to see his kid on weekends. I think it's terrific - right now, it's just a badge that the character identified by, a quirk if you will. But as his involvement in the Mythos deepens, it's going to turn into a big problem... Jeff's rationale was: too many player characters are orphans, typically young men, who have no friends who aren't in some way tied to the plot. Guys like Conan, Elric, or Mulder. But it's unrealistic, and it's too easy. I think it's something to do with the number of players in the game who are married, personally... they just want to roleplay something different for a while! -- James Holloway "And yet in the end, for all his pains, he only knows how to play a game." - Baldesar Castiglione, "The Book of the Courtier" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:54 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! Personal experience... My team tried to summon armed support only once during Across the Fence - they got more than they bargained for, and were blasted out of the field by unreliable (that is MJ-domesticated) forces. Getting DG-certified help is hard as hell (after all, there's not that much of it to spare). Getting non-certified help is a liability in more than one sense... "Hey, they're siding with the cultists!" Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Beck [msb216@is7.nyu.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 6:02 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! Keep in mind, where the Mythos is concerned calling in backup is just that many more potential casualities. At least, that's the standard answer. I can envision a darker aspect: perhaps A-cell engages in what I'll can testing to destruction. They use their connections to have a special operations group or SWAT team assigned to attack a Mythos threat with guns and violence. If you come out both alive and sane, you're a friendly. Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > Tolga Yanasik schrieb: > > Players : "We'll call the Navy Seals." > > Keeper : "Ah, come on. You can do it by yourselves." > > Players : "No, we want Seals from Alphonse." > > Keeper whispers : "damn..." > > > > Did it ever happen that your players reach the end of the campaign, find > > out where the bad guys are hiding, gather enough proof to bust the place, > > but didn't show the courage to use the only resource -themselves- for > > the task of saving the world > > > > The Mythos is hiding there. Exposure to Mythos is inevitable. You can't > > call the police or take the SWAT with you. You need to do it in the DG > > way. > > > > So, what will the A cell do ? > > Well, my first point: I would try to avoid such situations. Never get them to get > used to calling the SEALs, or the USMC, or artillery support, tactical nuclear > weapons or whatever. > If they never get used to such help, they won't ask for it [ except perhaps under > the most extreme circumstances]. > > But of course there may well be those situations where your player do not only > need but deserve support. But a whole SEAL TEAM, Special Operations Group Delta, > a USMC Infantry Division? Don't think so. Probably if they are about to challenge > Azathoth himself they might get such sort of aid. But will it help? Not much I > think. > > And I do not like the idea of being the support arm of DG-teams B-Z. Sure: They > will do what they can, if it is necessary, BUT: Remember this is an illegal > conspiracy!!! > > ECKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of James & Sarah Collins [collwood@gte.net] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:11 PM To: Delta Green Subject: DG: The deep end of the pool Hello: "This is our ool. There is no P in it. We'd like to keep it that way." Re: Our Darkest Hour I don't own every book that Pagan has published (I wish, but I'm not independently wealthy -- yet), but those that I do own are fantastic. As I look over my titles (Delta Green, Delta Green: Countdown, The Golden Dawn, More Tales of Terror, The Fate, Coming Full Circle), I see a level of quality that I value and appreciate. These are great books. I can find something good to say about each one of them (I have few complaints). I don't think Pagan will fuck this up (ODH). I'm curious to see what their take is on World War II, but I'm sure that there will be something I will love, lots that is useful in a WWII campaign (and can be transferred to other campaigns as well), and maybe a thing or two that I won't like (nothing is perfect). The point is, Pagan Publishing (and the individuals behind the logo) are great! > P.S> Just needed to blow off some steam... Sorry guys. No problem. By the way, I really enjoyed working on More Tales of Terror with Steve (and I hope to work with Pagan Publishing again in the future). Later. James D. Collins Painted Frog Productions From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jeff McSpadden [jeferi@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! Jonathan Turner wrote: > > > 2) The special forces guys don't necessarily have to kick the bad guys' > asses... things could go poorly if the Mythos is involved... > This is a popular way of arming the cultists. SEAL team 6 is now zombies and the cultists thugs now have grenade launchers. Now they're *really* on their own. See 1) and 2) again, now they're bringing it to the players after the spell assisted interrogation and they *still* require a special spell to thwart the cult. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:28 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents I like Greg Stafford's definition. John Tynes must too...he quoted it in the opening of "Unknown Armies". Role playing games are "Improvisational radio theater". Phil Posehn On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:34:54 EDT Popeyesays@aol.com writes: > > That is something else to discuss here - the nature of "Role" > playing and > theater. Is the RPG really just a kind of informal drama of > improvisational > nature? Or is it something else? > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 9:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Tickling the Dragon's tail In a message dated 4/13/00 2:23:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, andywrobertson@clara.co.uk writes: << 1000 cars go along the road safely. One hits the tree. Which of those 1001 get noticed? >> Wrong sample. Instead of including the class of all cars who have traversed a road, restrict your odds-making to the class of all cars that have gone off the road in the area. Not two-car accidents, not swerving, not intoxicated; just went off the road because the driver fell asleep at the wheel. And only those nappers who went off the road and hit something so the Highway Patrol had to get involved. Out of say 100 cars in the last 20 years, one hit the only tree in Mad Dog County and it was also one of the few fatalities. And there are similar stories in all the other counties. A virtually infinite number of trajectories to take at random depending on just when the subject nods off, many with ditches or fences or other obstructions, the sheer serendipity of the only tree on the horizon being spontaneously in the path of this random event does tend to grab the attention. Especially since gravity wells and orbits didn't seem to be involved. So the people who see these enigmatic tableaus several times, being primates, look for significance. It's the Texas Panhandle or the plains of the Midwest or a desert, the road is straight to each horizon and there is a solitary tree with a car wrapped around it. Thousands of cars pass through without incident, this one generates paperwork. Makes you wonder, huh? If it was a suicide, why here? Was the tree significant to the deceased? They aren't local, so how did they know the tree was there? And if it was suicide, why come all the way out here in hope of finding something to run into? And that solitary tree bit would raise any insurance investigator's interest, so if it was suicide, they didn't care who knew. And where's the note? That's why these people find this stuff significant and write about it. And I find questions more interesting than the same silly non-answers we are offered to keep us from getting cranky. 42. << I could take this off on a digression about Bayes Theorem and selection effects and the Anthropic principal. In fact I will. How can anyone stop me?>> Gosh, would that have anything to do with, oh I don't know, the mechanics of noticing significant instances of the number 23 or like that? Don't forget Gilhoolie's Exception in light of the Everett-Wheeler-Graham Model and the Pompatus of Love Effect. Bring it on Meat, my authorities are cooler than your authorities and consequently get laid more often. Neener neener neener. << 1000,000,000,000,000 lifeless universes One with one living planet in it Which of those 1000,000,000,000,001 gets noticed?>> The one with observers? Mark McFadden Was that a trick question? From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Stephane "Midnight" Rolland [blade-runner@sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:49 PM To: Delta Green Subject: DG: CoC campaigns for DG *waves* Hello there! I just recently started DMing (Keeping/Storytelling/whatever) again after a few years of being a player. After reading the rave reviews on rpg.net, I decided to give DG a try, and boy was I glad I did. I already ran a few adventures with my group, either published ones or ones form my own invention (or even from ideas unashamedly stolen from here). However, I have a question since I am not very familiar with all the CoC adventures published. I would like to throw my players in one of those world-wide, 2-years-playing-and-we-still-haven't-finished-that-darn-thing-yet campaign à la The Masks or even Beyond the Mountain of Madness. I was wondering if any of you guys/gals had ever tried to convert one of those (or others of that caliber) to DG or could point me out to the ones you think could be fun in a modern/DG setting. I checked the Ice Cave and the Scenario Guide of the DG website, to no luck. Thanks in advance, Be seeing you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stephane "Midnight" Rolland blade-runner@sympatico.ca PGP Key available upon request. "I'm sorry, I had too; the irony was just too thick." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Daniel Harms [dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 11:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: re:DG: Encoding messages Andy, If you could remember anything more about this, it would be great. I've got a student working on a paper on "cultures of deafness", and this looks like it might be useful... Yrs., Daniel At 10:58 PM 4/11/2000 +0100, you wrote: >I was thinking also of an experiment that took place in Central America >(this was reported on UK television some years back). Young, profoundly >deaf and dumb, children were asssembled into a stable community and taught >American Sign Language. In a decade or so they spontanously transformed >the ASL into a proper language, with a sophisticated grammer, without adult >guidance. > >If it can be done with hand signs - what else? > > >The Glove Cleaner > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Paul Radford >To: > >> Where creating new languages is concerned, I have no >> idea how difficult it is but i do believe, if my memory >> serves me, that there are a growing number of Star Trek >> fans who are learning to speak Klingon. > > Daniel Harms dmharms@acsu.buffalo.edu The Internet: Learn what you know. Share what you don't. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 12:58 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! Just wanted to throw out some ideas, both from reality and from opinion, on the use of large-scale Delta Green assets for operations. First, the most important thing is the reality of the support the agents would receive when they start calling for help. They call in the Seals, Special Forces, Marines or whoever and they are not going to get an entire team/group/division/etc. It doesn't work that way. The SpecOps teams simply don't deploy that way. They are trained for deploying in small groups (with the exception of the Rangers who do go for a slightly larger deployment package). You call the SEALs and you would most likely get a platoon, Special Forces and you get an A-Team and so on. Seldom do they deploy in the RW in larger groups and since they aren't trained to work that way, when they do it tends to cause disasters (look at the SEALs at Patilla Airfield in Panama for a good example of this). Teams deploy as theater assets not a tactical unit for raids. Next, even if Delta Green has a SEAL Team commander that doesn't give him or them unlimited use of that team for whatever they want. Any action they take in the United States outside requires extensive authorization from higher up, even advisory roles. Short of a state of emergency, the actions they can take are strictly limited by law. Outside of the United States would have similar restrictions. The team cannot simply buck the chain of command and disappear for a few days without a major scandal resulting. If the op resulted in any publicity and that would spell the end for Delta Green. It is simply not the kind of thing that could be swept under the rug. Third, there are the time and logistical difficulties associated with getting them there. You first need to assemble the team for deployment. The larger the force involved, the longer this will take. You would need to airlift them and supply them. Unlike the movies, they are neither simply there in the next scene and they do not have an endless supply of bullets, food and so on. Again, the bigger the number involved, the larger, longer and more complex this side of the op becomes. The team will demand intelligence on the operation and the target. Again, unlike in the movies, they do not just jump in their blind and start shooting. If you do not give them the support and intelligence, the commanders have the right and the power to simply veto the operation and so much for the support. Then there are simply the limits of the support. SEALs are still men, so what you get is a number of very professional back-up men. Good in some circumstances, yes, but against outright Mythos forces…well, look at the Cambodia operation and you get the idea. Also, the much spoken about artillery or air support is not always what it is cracked up to be (trust me). Even in a war situation, you have to call for support and wait till it can arrive on station. This can take up to an hour (there were Special Forces teams that waited that long in Iraq). With the exceptions of deserts and plains (and even then), it is not always as accurate or powerful as the media likes to play up. In denser environments, it can be really limited. Artillery strikes are the same way. They have to drop literally tons of ammunition to be even somewhat assured of hitting a target and against dug in forces in the right environments, they might end up being ineffective at destroying a target. These are much better at suppressing an enemy and weakening him for the infantry than single-handedly taking out a mythos target. Now, all that have been said, I do believe there is a place, an important one for large-scale operations of this type. It is just that they should be rare and of special importance. I can see an eventual raid on the Karotechia's La Estancia by SpecOps forces, possibly disguised as a drug raid or the like. I could see large law enforcement raids on Tiger Transit offices. These examples and some others would be special targets of opportunity and the planning and organization should take awhile (play out the agents planning sessions, make them get their warrants, and so on) with the actual attack being played out in a manner similar to Chaosium's Raid on Innsmouth (in Escape from Innsmouth). It should be dramatic and important, not a way for agents to get around personal danger. And even a successful op should have its ramifications. If they hit a Majestic facility, have them find their operation being hampered from above at every turn. If they still get it off the ground, have them find American troops called in to end their raid (yes, just like in ROE). Any attempt to go after the Fate should be harassed or ignored by law enforcement officials (either they are on somebody's payroll or the Fate is just a myth, right?). Tiger Transit and the Skoptsi have some limited intelligence connections that could come into play. An operation like this shouldn't be easy but it should be memorable and if at all possible lead to further scenarios. It would be possible for the agents to get smaller scale aid. A few US marshals who think they are serving a warrant, a SEAL platoon tasked to hit a "terrorist" safehouse and so on are small enough to keep out of the papers and hide in the bureaucracy as long as things don't go horribly wrong. If you can attach legitimacy to your operation (illegal drugs, murder charges, the cultists really are terrorists) and you could be given a little more leeway (though still within the restrictions outlined above). You still would only get what the bureaucracy feels the situation warrants but it could help the agents with some additional back up. I would say, too, that DG's military and law enforcement agents could have small cells of personal Friendlies within their units that they could call upon for similar back-up with more deniability. Forrest James probably has a few (say half dozen) trusted men that he could disappear with for a few days on a "training" mission. Again, some support but not a cure to the agents' problems. The way I see Delta Green and play them (my opinion only- your mileage may vary) is that they could get the US government to do anything. But (and it's a big But) its like Daffy Duck says in the old cartoon, "It's a great trick but I can only do it once." DG could get America involved in a war or possibly get the use of a nuclear weapon, deploy Marine divisions and so on. How they do this is by massing all their assets in the intelligence, military and political arenas. Reports start coming in (fabricated of course) Through these channels they raise tensions. Given a few weeks to months, they created a crisis and America reacts. The minute they do, the exposure of DG begins. The media will sooner or later uncover the fraud. You will start getting headlines about intelligence cover-ups and military warmongers killing American boys for their own agenda. MJ will probably start feeding the evidence out as it wasn't their war and they can destroy DG without being directly involved. These options are saved for when there is no other option and nothing left to lose (I would say nothing short of the events at the start of the Endtimes, personally). Deploying overwhelming force, even below this level, would be viewed by DG in the same light. Unless there is a big enough gain versus the potential loss, A-Cell isn't going to do it. They could but they won't. A cell's expendability would play more here than the threat if it means the loss of DG. Simply say that A-Cell doesn't approve the requisition in this case. Delta Green will instead use a far subtler manner to put some influence on policy. Potential law enforcement operations and the like and then "piggyback" onto an already official operation. They may not have direct control of everything but they have more assets and little can be traced back to them. Using this option, allow the assets to be there but the agents aren't in control and they cannot back out of doing their duty. They get to see what its like to be those pawns they want to throw against the mythos and have to deal with a host of problems while not controlling the situation. Anyway, just some thoughts wrapped up in another long rant :) -Dave K From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 2:03 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: World War Two chemical weapons In a message dated 4/13/00 3:08:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, j.turner@irishnews.com writes: << >Why? The topic is a gas! Hitler's flatulence is legendary. Whether it is true or not, I do not know. > On a more serious note, apparently Hitler had decided simply to use gas - including the German nerve agents like Sarin and Soman in a retaliatory role. Churchill had at one stage considering using gas from the British armory - namely Nitrogen mustard gas and Lewisite during the Normandy landings. If he did, Hitler would have retaliated with nerve agents against which Allied gas masks were ineffective. >> Is it just me, or is anyone else seeing an image of Hitler and Churchill facing away from each other while all this is going on. Hitler drinks something, bends over and let's fly with Sarin. Churchill drinks something which brings tears to his eyes, bends over and retaliates with nitrogen mustard gas. German scientists scramble to create a Doomsday Gas. Meanwhile, America watches from the sidelines as a young Colonel Turgidson tells Franklin Roosevelt that we cannot allow a Flatulence Gap. Mark McFadden Don't look at me like that, he said it. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 3:33 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Tickling the Dragon's tail ----- Original Message ----- From: > So the people who see these enigmatic tableaus several times, being > primates, look for significance. It's the Texas Panhandle or the plains of > the Midwest or a desert, the road is straight to each horizon and there is a > solitary tree with a car wrapped around it. Then it's an evil tree thing, obviously. Feeding, gathering its strength. > Was that a trick question? Depends whether the noticing is done from inside or outside the manifold of universes. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 3:56 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: re:DG: Encoding messages ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Harms > Andy, > > If you could remember anything more about this, it would be great. I've > got a student working on a paper on "cultures of deafness", and this > looks like it might be useful... > Finally found it - it was in Nicaragua http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/nuggets/028/nugget.htm "A landmark event in linguistic science". It really is quite something. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of cd skogsberg [d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 4:06 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed Popeyesays@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/13/00 4:46:47 PM Central Daylight Time, > doctor.dee@libero.it writes: > << > Incidentally, he had to pay a supplement to be serviced on a moving vehicle. > > Man, you Italians are just sick. Remind me to stick to French and Greek > >style when Euroslumming. ;-) > Do not forget Norwegians. > >> > Just don't get rear ended while the lady is working - or you may get > a subsidiary amputation if her jaws are knocked together hard enough > - at least partial anyway. "You haven't lived until you've had a stump job from a multiple amputee." As a person of my aquaintance put it. /cd -- Customer: "I'm running Windows '95." Tech: "Yes." Customer: "My computer isn't working now." Tech: "Yes, you said that." From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 4:10 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: OT: steampunk > Yithians prune away a branch that was rubbing the bark off of other > branches > they would rather keep: but the scars on the bark remain. > Babbage's > engine, and what else? > > > > The Glove Cleaner > There's those ancient Persian batteries and the sabretooth tiger skull with the .38 calibur hole in it's forehead... Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of forvalaka@juno.com Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 2:56 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: University (was Re:DG: David Irving's lawsuit failed) > This reminded me what is almost a classic of British spy fiction and > honest > to god spying history - a lot of double agents and spies were > headhunted > during their university days. > Also, there's this persisting rumour - of which Len Deighton makes a > wide > use - that the British secret community is sort of an extended, > glorified > and often blundering Alumni Club. It's not just the British who practice that recruiting technique, the infamous Kim Philby and his bunch were recruited by the Soviets in college. And whenever a political disturbance happens somewhere, it seems it is always reported that "students" were involved. Charles O. Baucum Jr. Mortuus non est quod in aeternum insiditur et aetate ignota mors ipsas finiretur From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 5:49 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: No Man's Land ----- Original Message ----- From: Gil Trevizo > >hallucinations (for some reason, I keep getting all sorts of WWI imagery > >associated with this idea... a soldier wakes up one morning to find that the > >blasted, silent landscape of the trenches and no-man's land is entirely > >deserted...). Bring in all the bombers and armored divisions you want, the > >horror is in your head. > > This is what I was hoping the NO MAN'S LAND scenario would be... aw > well... Posting from the backlist - I have been reading Henry Williamson's "Chronicles of Ancient Sunlight", a long sequence of novels which include 5 or 6 set in the trenches in World War I. They are absolutely unmatched: they make me wonder that the horror of the trenches did not break loose into a self-perpetuating subworld of its own. >From another source, a quote from a letter by William Hope Hogdson, writer of The Night Land: from memory, I'm afraid: "out there in no mans land they showed - just dull, squarish, formless masses that bulk against the atrocious Storm that sweeps, day and night, night and day, across this lost world. Talk about the End of the |World, talk about the Night Land . . . it is all here, not fifty miles from where you wait, infinitely remote. If I survive and if my old skill with the pen has not deserted me, _what_a_book_I_will_write_ . . . . " But Hodgson died in 1918. The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 5:48 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents James Holloway schrieb: [snip] > > Jeff's rationale was: too many player characters are orphans, typically > young men, who have no friends who aren't in some way tied to the plot. Guys > like Conan, Elric, or Mulder. I think Mulder's family ties supported the show for a couple of seasons. ECKKHARD From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 8:10 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Home Life of Agents >From: "James Holloway" >The Keeper of the DG campaign I'm in (hi Jeff!) _forced_ us to have family >stuff in our lives... as a Friendly, it hasn't been that big a ... >Jeff's rationale was: too many player characters are orphans, typically >young men, who have no friends who aren't in some way tied to the plot. >Guys >like Conan, Elric, or Mulder. But it's unrealistic, and it's too easy. I >think it's something to do with the number of players in the game who are >married, personally... they just want to roleplay something different for a >while! I've seen this problem and considered it a lot, myself. I don't know about the married folk, really, the most often I see this it's younger folk who don't want to be bothered with details or weaknesses. IMO, family connections and background are vital to developing a compelling character. Even if you ARE an orphan, that fact is intensely important to your character. And family ties give Keepers endless material... I was in a traveller-ish game, where I wrote into my backstory that my character had a twin brother in the military, the character was married, his family was somewhat well to-do in one of the colonies of Tau Ceti, and so forth. This gave him great dimension... his past had a political dimension, based on where he was from, and his life had currents running through it. His wife and he argued about jobs and where they'd move to. No interstellar commuting... So, did this make my character limited? On the contrary. a lot of plot threads were developed and linked to various parts of my story. The GM played all sorts of games with the background... my father had been a geneticist, my mother was part of a eugenics project, my wife was actually a double agent unhappily working for another species, and so on. I LOVED IT. I've run several games with family connections. My present campaign has three PCs as siblings, and the fourth as a cousin. The family background gives them reason to deal with each other, to work through differences, and hooks to draw in plot threads. So... use families! Gives characters life, and Keepers tools to torment. ;) -=Will ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of jpetheri@cyberbeach.net Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 8:49 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Government Suppression of Pagan Spring Festival Activity Hmm, the government is suppressing your God-given rights to fondle young chickens during your pagan celebration of the vernal equinox. Yes, the CDC couches it in terms of protection of public health but we *really* know what is intended. http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4914a1.htm ======================================== John Petherick, CIH e-mail: jpetheri@cyberbeach.net ----------------------------------------------- Did you know ? Cyber Beach has extended its monthly plan to UNLIMITED surfing per month !! Happy Surfing ! http://www.cyberbeach.net ----------------------------------------------- Brought to you by Cyber Beach's BottleMail ! http://www.cyberbeach.net From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of MARTIN WOLFF [martin_wolff@globalcrossing.com] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 9:05 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! > At 12:55 AM 4/14/00 +0300, you wrote: > >Did it ever happen that your players reach the end of the campaign, find > >out where the bad guys are hiding, gather enough proof to bust the place, > >but didn't show the courage to use the only resource -themselves- for > >the task of saving the world ? > > One other option you could do in some instances is this. Let the players go through all the effort of getting the SEALs involved and make the players work for it. Then, when the players go in, have the cultists gone and the whole area cleaned up. The SEALs, having nothing to attack, withdraw and want answers of why you wasted their time. Meanwhile, the cultists either move back or set up shop somewhere else. Try getting SEAL help again. Didn't Napolean have that trick pulled on him when his army was sent to Moscow? Martin. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of MARTIN WOLFF [martin_wolff@globalcrossing.com] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 9:14 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Let's call the SEALs !!! MARTIN WOLFF wrote: > > At 12:55 AM 4/14/00 +0300, you wrote: > > >Did it ever happen that your players reach the end of the campaign, find > > >out where the bad guys are hiding, gather enough proof to bust the place, > > >but didn't show the courage to use the only resource -themselves- for > > >the task of saving the world ? > > > > > One other option you could do in some instances is this. Let the players go > through all the effort of getting the SEALs involved and make the players > work for it. Then, when the players go in, have the cultists gone and the whole > > area cleaned up. The SEALs, having nothing to attack, withdraw and want > answers of why you wasted their time. > > Meanwhile, the cultists either move back or set up shop somewhere else. Try > getting SEAL help again. > > Didn't Napolean have that trick pulled on him when his army was sent to > Moscow? > > Martin. Opps! I said 'when the players go in' I meant 'when the SEALs go in'. Martin.