From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nocstar [shepherd@infocom.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 7:29 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: People...people who hate people At 09:44 PM 4/28/2000 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 00-04-28 19:52:19 EDT, you write: > ><< Yes. Admit that you hate everything and everyone. Search your feelings, snip > Man in Black: Stop that! I'm not kidding around now... > > Lizard King: Yeah! Like, fuckin' Yaaaaaaahhhhhhh! snip > Man in Black: Uh, this is a little embarassing. snip >Mark McFadden Take note, Newbies! THIS is a relevant, on topic, low signal to noise post brought to you by one who claims to know. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 7:47 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: Inside the Deep Ones Greetings. The MiB generalizes and says.... >Why would they need a roof? They live on the ocean floor. No weather. > >Similiarly, walls would be unnecessary except for fortifications, >agriculture, and geothermal aqueducts or whatever. Not necesarily. Underwater you face vertical movements of the water body, some of which are geographically localized and 'stable', others that are as sudden and mobile as weather phenomena. Ocean-floor currents are also present, which could be the equivalent of a strong lateral wind to deep one settlements. Finally, tehre's the enormous amount f stuff that falls from the watermass - bodily wastes of the whole biomass, dead fishes and other critters, algae, dust, all the refuses that ships are liable to drop while on course and 'cosmic dust' - that believe it or not makes for a significant percentage of the total. So - I'd buils walls and roofs anyway - at least for part of the structure. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Qstor@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 7:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: Inside the Deep Ones In a message dated 4/29/00 8:55:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << >Why would they need a roof? They live on the ocean floor. No weather. > >Similiarly, walls would be unnecessary except for fortifications, >agriculture, and geothermal aqueducts or whatever. >> There's some drawings of structurs in CoC Return to Innsmouth From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Robert Thomas [ThomasR@Cardiff.ac.uk] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 10:39 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: DGML T-Shirt Hello All, As you are all aware the Shirt Project has not so much stopped as stalled. And now is the time to resurrect it. As so much time has passed I along with Phil Ward (who is kindly helping me) have decided its time to kill or cure it. As a result the following procedure has been decided upon: 1 There is a one (1) week time limit for orders for the shirt to be mailed to the following e-mail address: DGML_Shirt@hotmail.com the time limit starts this Monday 01/May/2000 and runs to the following Monday after which that's it, we've moved on to Stage 2. Everyone who wants a shirt send an e-mail there stating size they go to XXL (even the people already on my list because I want a clean start, and accurate e-mail addresses). 2 I will collate the order information on Monday 8th May and forward it to John Tynes / Pagan who have agreed in the past to accept Credit Card payments for the shirt and who will then forward me the total ammount of cash for the order converted into pounds sterling. There will be a one week period for payment from the Monday. So all payments will have to be made by Monday 15th May 2000. The Shirt will cost £10 sterling (which includes postage) 3 I will then await the money order / cheque to arrive before going and ordering the shirts. 4 Phil and I will then mail the shirts out to the address's provided in your order e-mails. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right things we need in the order e-mail : Size Number of shirts Address to post the shirt to ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And you all need the following information: the design of the shirt can be seen at the following page plus more information: http://n.ethz.ch/student/hankef/DeltaGreen/tshirt.htm (paganites are getting a free shirt each as is the MiB as we did promise that) COST: I went to the shirt shop today and there are various options (all sizes cost the same) 50 shirts - £5.25 each £6.17 75 shirts - £4.95 each £5.82 100 shirts - £4.75 each £5.58 >From the figure quote I have from the shop it is not clear if that includes VAT at 17.5% or not the second figure include the Vat cost if not. The t-shirts will be black with the designs from above. (they will be updated for the lists new address and the new year.) The shirts will be printed on 150-160 gramme cotton which is medium quality, we can have better but it will cost more. When I have the final figures and addresses I'll work out postage costs etc and see if we can afford better quality we will go for the best we can afford. OK that's it I think, any obvious questions can we address through the list an OBDG T-Shirt at the end and then I can reply to people individually and I don't get shed loads of mail as my filespace is tight at the moment. OK thanks guys and the address for orders is open now. Be seeing You Rob. ObDg do I have to think of one ;-) J.R.E.Thomas. ThomasR@cardiff.ac.uk Our kind. Us people. All of us that started the game with a crooked cue, that wanted so much and got so little, that meant so good and did so bad. Jim Thompson 'The Killer Inside Me' http://n.ethz.ch/student/hankef/DeltaGreen/tshirt.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 10:12 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: People...people who hate people In a message dated 4/29/00 5:29:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, shepherd@infocom.com writes: << Take note, Newbies! THIS is a relevant, on topic, low signal to noise post brought to you by one who claims to know. >> Since you trimmed the quotes, I will answer this with a nearly uncharacteristic seriousness. Also, since I took a few seconds considering whether to just send it to the MiB and not the List, I knew I was pushing the envelope. Relevant? It jammed on a theme and kept the ball bouncing. What does it have to do with DG? Nothing. What does it have to do with the DGML? You make the call. On Topic? Only as Section 8 fodder. Signal to noise? Let's define our terms. I'm not trying to be smarmy, I just think the term is bandied about without much analysis. The signal-to-noise ratio. 'Information' could be considered the sum of signal and noise. Meaningful information is signal, everything else is noise. Meaningful information could be a message transferred, a quality measured, an image revealed. In short, meaningful information is what we don't know and noise is what we do. Ah ah. I took comm courses, too. I know that's not the textbook answer, because (not to rap my Academy ring on the table or anything) I do this stuff for a living. Look closer. Why are you receiving signals? To learn something or about something you don't know. Ah ah. That includes listening to variations on a known theme and verifying a prediction. Until you filter out the noise, you don't know. So let's deconstruct a little more. Signals surprise you, noise doesn't. I told you it's not in the textbook, stand on your own. Signal is what we want, noise is what we don't. That one's even literally true. So how about?: Hi, I just bought DG yesterday and am planning to run a game with some people who never have. Any suggestions? or Hi, I just had a vague unfocussed notion about using a spell or something. What do you think? or Hi, I'm going to run 'Masks of Nyalathothotep' as a DG scenario this weekend. Any suggestions? or Hi, I'm going to run a DG scenario where the PCs meet Mulder and Scully. Has anyone else done this? or Hi, It just occurred to me that the Vatican would probably have some experienced monster hunters. What do you think? or Hi, I just finished reading 'Cry the Fey Evensong'. It's real good. or Hi, Has anyone tried combining DG with any of the White Wolf stuff? What do you think? If this was someone's very first post, would they be smacked down for it? Would it be considered spam? Would you like to maintain an environment where this is the norm? Mark McFadden From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@disinfo.net] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 10:21 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re:DG: DGML T-Shirt [SuperDave climbs atop his soapbox]: Ahem...OK folks, I've sent in my order, now send in yours. Particularly those of you who ordered one nearly a year ago and never called in your credit card numbers to Pagan. For those who have joined us since, please check out the design at http://n.ethz.ch/student/hankef/DeltaGreen/tshirt.htm and make your well-considered decision. Think of it as an investment--the ultimate collector's item. Or think of it as something you can wear to recognize each other when you meet at a convention. Or as a souveneir in the far future when this list goes into wherever it is where good lists go to die. Plllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaassssssse. Thank you. Dave [We now return you to your regularly scheduled list.] From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 11:22 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people) Greetings. Mark McFadden uncharacteristically (?) seriously writes > If this was someone's very first post, would they be smacked down for it? >Would it be considered spam? > Would you like to maintain an environment where this is the norm? Gentlemen (and ladies) - we need a FAQ, and we need it damn fast. It's been discussed a lot of times before, but now we are spending hours discussing things that a proper FAQ would clear in a sec and no problemo. No more lone justice. So, we need a place somewhere where newbies (a greeting to the whole lot of them, btw) can look and find links to DG.com, archives, Cave, Endtimes & Emerald Hammer page etc. Oh, and Pagan's Site, obviously. The material has to be readily accessible - so a list of TDTD or 'topics done to death' would also be good. TDTD items are to be indicated not so that people no longer post on them, but simply so that someone will know they have to check what's been said before and _then_ coe to the fore. New input on old issues is always welcome etcetera. Also, we NEED a page of clear, irony-free netiquette basics - nothing special, but the essentials: quote trimming, reply style, etc. And a short, on-focus 'Dealing with the MiB (before he deals with you)' primer is also essential. I'm pretty sure he can write one himself that will be a joy to read and also very clear and informative. I'm sorry if this will sound as conceited or foolish ('who is this Doc Dee chap anyway?') - but I want to stress again the fact that we need a serious, clear and straightforward document. Irony is sometimes missed by some (consider someone for whom English is not the first language, ie) and it would be extremely stupid to not be completely clear in a FAQ. The fact that someone cannot get slang or other terms does not mean he is not welcome as long as he has something good to contribute, right? Which is a lot of nice words, but again we need to start and do it. I'm ready to help. Any others? It would be a nice thing to do ASAP, and a fitting celebration for the second year of activity of this list. Sorry for this silly lecturing, but I'm tired and I want the old sparkling discussions back. ;> Best wishes. Davide Mana Torino, Italy doctor.dee@libero.it The Ice Cave - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Chris Pencis [cpencis@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 12:18 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people) snip > Which is a lot of nice words, but again we need to start and do it. > I'm ready to help. > Any others? > It would be a nice thing to do ASAP, and a fitting celebration for the > second year of activity of this list. > snip > Davide Mana > Torino, Italy > doctor.dee@libero.it > The Ice Cave - > http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm I've got a weasely little page on Geocities w/no real value as it stands now... perhaps I might provide a resting place for the DGML FAQ-to-be. No promises re: any significant quality of content or presentation. Just no friggin music playing or blinkin' lights... ok wait stop right now... this is not a troll for rants on bad web page design. Just stop right now. Any one care to write up the pages? Anyone have a site which won't have the annoying little Geocities crap in the top right corner? Chris ps. anyone have a favorite well written FAQ to use as a template? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Shane Ivey [sivey@zealot.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 12:20 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people) The DGML page at Delta-Green.com may be an excellent place to store it. Send the FAQ (when one exists) to agent Christopher, and I expect he'll be glad to put it there. Shane Ivey Editor/Webmaster Zealot.com: Sci-Fi & Fantasy Fun GameJudge.com: The Game Review Superportal Delta-Green.com: Lovecraftian Horror and Modern Conspiracy Today at Zealot.com: An Interview With Neal Stephenson > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com [mailto:owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com]On > Behalf Of Chris Pencis > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 12:18 PM > To: dgrpg@delta-green.com > Subject: Re: FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people) > > > snip > > > Which is a lot of nice words, but again we need to start and do it. > > I'm ready to help. > > Any others? > > It would be a nice thing to do ASAP, and a fitting celebration for the > > second year of activity of this list. > > > snip > > Davide Mana > > Torino, Italy > > doctor.dee@libero.it > > The Ice Cave - > > http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm > > I've got a weasely little page on Geocities w/no real value as it stands > now... perhaps I might provide a resting place for the DGML FAQ-to-be. No > promises re: any significant quality of content or presentation. Just no > friggin music playing or blinkin' lights... ok wait stop right now... this > is not a troll for rants on bad web page design. Just stop right now. > Any one care to write up the pages? Anyone have a site which won't have > the annoying little Geocities crap in the top right corner? > > Chris > ps. anyone have a favorite well written FAQ to use as a template? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 1:45 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Psych Support (was Ugandan Cult Mass Suicide) On 29 April, 2000 AD, "Dave Farnell" responded thusly to a report of some details about the MiB's structural composition: >"Cavernous angiomas are at times referred to as cryptic arteriovenous >malformations or occult lesions because they do not show up on routine >arteriography. " > >Occult lesions. Cool. >So this means the MiB has a big hole in his brain. The question is, what >was in there before? Or what may still be in there, but invisible to CT and >MRI scans? Non-terrene matter and all. Hmmm... Just because it comes from offworld doesn't necessarily mean it has weird properties... IIRC, some of the iron deposits on Earth, for example, are said to be the product of asteroid strikes long before the time of the dinosaurs, and artifacts constructed of those non-terrene materials don't necessarily do strange things... (On the other manipulatory appendage, being partly constructed of such non-terrene matter might just explain some of the quirks in my Lady's VW Fox...):) Maybe the matter in question (inside MiB's head) is not only non-terrene, but _contra_-terrene? (Good ol' SeeTee, as it was nicknamed in an old SF book by (I think) Lester del Rey. Starfleet, being a government organization, seems to much prefer the more technical sounding term "antimatter", while Robert Forward (the father of interstellar laser sailboats) sometimes calls it "mirror matter" in his articles...) Installed to power the MiB's active and passive sensor arrays, ELINT/COMINT/ARCHINT suite, force field generator, and especially weapons systems? (Something that not even Robert Forward suggested -- reminds me a little of one Michael Finn!) The intense, extremely localized magnetic and gravitic fields necessary to contain it could mask the antimatter's presence from the puny scanning instruments of 2000 AD Earth! Of course, this antimatter could threaten the safety of the planet if the MiB gets a headache...:) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Edgar Riceboro [rlyehswimmer@angelfire.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 2:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Psych Support On 29 Apr 2000 03:41:15 -000 Dave Farnell wrote: >>What I have is a cavernous malformation. It don't >WEBSTER-DEF. SNIPPED> >Occult lesions. Cool. >So this means the MiB has a big hole in his brain. >The question is, what was in there before? Or what >may still be in there, but invisible to CT and MRI >scans? Non-terrene matter and all. It's so obvious....we're dealing with a very powerful Shan who has obviously co-opted the MiB's hyper-active intellectual powers to create a "mini-gate" within the MiB's cortex...this would go very far in explaining the sporadic bursts of signal from his Darkness alternated by equally lenghty quiet spells.. ....where has your Shan gone today? Makes you wonder what the MiBs use for trepanation? Can we get some photos of the procedure? Better yet, can we get an interview with this (obviously) developed Shan... -ER Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Joseph Camp [alphonse@delta-green.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 2:30 PM To: dgrpg Subject: Re: FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people) If a FAQ is drafted, I can ensure that every person who starts a subscription to the list will receive the FAQ first thing. Hopefully that will help a lot of new recruits get into the swing of things--and provide no excuse for those who don't. This would be in addition to maintaining the finished FAQ on dg.com. be seeing you, Alphonse From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 3:01 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Psych Support (was Ugandan Cult Mass Suicide) ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Layne To> The intense, extremely localized magnetic and gravitic fields necessary > to contain it could mask the antimatter's presence from the puny scanning > instruments of 2000 AD Earth! Of course, this antimatter could threaten the > safety of the planet if the MiB gets a headache...:) > Assume there's ten grams of the stuff in there, that's 9 x 10^14 joules 1 Kiloton is 4.6 x 10^12 joules So you're talking about 200 Kilotons. Not the planet. Hawaii, maybe. But didn't we know that? The Glove Cleaner The Glove Cleaner From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 3:20 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Crawler war mark mcfadden wrote :- : > > << What would insects do that bugs and chemicals can't? >> > Replenish their numbers without extra logistics? is having the bugs breeding in the wild wise ? surly they will be hard enough to control without the possibilty that they can cross breed in the wild - having a sterility and or timed lifespan would be the least of the saftey checks needed to control them , after all only one queen is required to start a colony and if it starts a muntant colony which retains your neurotoxin poison with say - african killer bee psychcology - then your are all up sh**t creek yours - andy . From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 3:32 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: RIPTIDE (long) (was Re: DG: Useful Resources for Deep One Society ...) On 26 April 2000 AD, "Michael Layne" said (not having his copy of the DG Sourcebook handy): > IIRC (my DG book is at home, but I'm not, at the moment) the USN (and >DG) fired on the Deep One facilities at Devil's Reef again, following DG >discovery of possible Deep One contribution to the loss of USS "Thresher" >in >1963. The DO facility had only been severely damaged by the torpedoes of >1928, and may have been at least partially repaired by then. IIRC, this >time the target was "destroyed". Or, as the DG Sourcebook puts it (p.50): "April 10, 1963: USS "Thresher" sinks with all hands a hundred miles east of Cape Cod. DG uncovers Deep One involvement. "April-May, 1963: Delta Green Operation RIPTIDE utterly destroys the Deep One city of Y'ha-nthlei, which had only been damaged by the submarine attack in 1928." On p.38, it goes into a little more detail about certain aspects of the op: "On April 10, 1963, the USS "Thresher" nuclear attack submarine sank with all hands, 100 miles east of Cape Cod, Massachusetts. Delta Green could not help but notice that this was in the general vicinity of the ruins of Innsmouth. The investigation that followed led to the discovery that the Deep One colony under Devil's Reef was not destroyed by the submarine attack in 1928. Operation RIPTIDE finished the job started thirty-five years earlier, with air-dropped anti-submarine weapons and depth charges. The operation was seriously hampered by the loss of the Project COVENANT and Division P documents in 1955." Much of the DG involvement in this op would have been ashore, in the fine old tradition of DG's ONI roots, assembling target data for a naval strike. (Though some of the investigation probably led to encounters with Deep Ones and hybrids -- it would make an interesting scenario for simulations in that time period!) The mental visions of Deep Ones swimming out to the "Thresher" while she was running submerged off Cape Cod, and somehow breaching the hull or otherwise crippling the boat, are probably inaccurate. A modern submarine, operating at 20+ knots, would not be an easy target for swimming Deep Ones to intercept. If they were able to intercept the boat, fouling her perhaps with nets or grapnels, they would have been faced with the problem of breaching several inches of HY-80 steel, or possibly jamming the diving planes in "down" position (producing a "jam dive" excursion below collapse depth). A torch or explosive capable of breaching the hull would have produced unmistakable sound signatures that would have been detectable by USS "Skylark", the submarine rescue vessel that was standing by on the surface at the time. A UQC (sonarphone) message from "Thresher" shortly before she was destroyed seemed to indicate the diving planes were at a "positive up angle" and she was attempting to "blow up" -- in this case, to blow her tanks and surface. This doesn't point to the diving planes being jammed by Deep Ones. However, DO sabotage doesn't have to take the form of DO combat swimmers messing with the exterior of a submarine underway. The "Thresher"'s dive that day was a test dive, just after a yard period. (That was one reason there were 129 men aboard at the time, in a sub that normally carried a smaller number -- some of these were technical and official observers!) This means that, a few days or weeks ago, large numbers of workers were tinkering with the sub's insides. The generally accepted theory of the probable cause of "Thresher"'s loss involves a silver-brazed joint in a water circulation pipe in the boat's engineering spaces. Apparently, the joint gave way, and the leak happened to be located near an electrical switchboard, which promptly shorted out, causing automatic safety systems to trigger an emergency reactor shutdown. This was not at all a good thing, especially with water still coming in and the boat near test depth. There were emergency batteries, but it's theorized they may have been too small for the task placed upon them, and were run to exhaustion trying to power the reactor startup, as well as emergency pumps and the like. This was prior to the current "emergency blow" system for surfacing the boat with high-pressure air. They ran out of time, while still trying to restart the reactor and blow enough of the water out of the tanks. Flashback to a few weeks before, with the sub high and dry in drydock. A Deep One hybrid (still human-looking, and ONI isn't thinking of "the Innsmounth Look" in 1963, anyway) is a worker at the yard. Probably not the welder who actually was responsible for that pipe joint, but someone who could plausibly visit that section of the sub without suspiscion. The pipe has already been worked on, and the work tagged as good by the safety people. Our hybrid agent bides his time until his fellow workmen are otherwise engaged, does something to the pipe (acid? some sort of ultrasound treatment with a pocket widget?), invisible to casual inspection, that weakens the joint, then moves on to plot other mischief in other subs, later on... He may not necessarily be mind-controlled, or being blackmailed, or fanatically loyal to his DO roots. He might have figured sinking the sub would be striking a blow at the land-dwellers who were exploiting the Rousseauesque "Noble Savage" Deep Ones, much as the white man had taken over the Native Americans' land... It might have been his own way of protesting Cold War defense spending, or nuclear power (its most modern sub having to surface because of a broken pipe would be embarrassing to the Navy)... He might have been in it simply for the money... This would be the man whom the DG investigators would need to find and neutralize, before he killed again. (And Portsmouth NSY was building other subs of the same class as "Thresher"!) As I see it, RIPTIDE had to: a. Determine DO complicity in the loss with all hands of the submarine. b. Locate and neutralize the DO agent(s) to forestall the loss of more vessels. c. Recreate (and update) the lost Div P intel concerning the DO city Y'ha-nthlei, sufficiently for a punitive strike to be effective. d. Facilitate such a strike. Some of (d) would have needed to be carried out at high levels, and in fact, the National Command Authority (JFK) would have needed to be brought into the loop, for the strike was likely carried out with nuclear ordnance. This was 1963. The Mk-48 torpedo, which would have been excellent for the job, was not yet off the drawing board. The lightweight Mk 37 -- the standard homing torpedo of the era -- could not be guaranteed capable of breaching and wrecking large fixed (possibly hardened) sea-bottom installations. Mark 14 torpedoes -- the classic WWII weapon, now with the bugs worked out -- packed the punch, but were essentially straight-line weapons -- not suited for attacking buildings amid various sea-bottom obstacles. The DO structures might have been leveled by large quantities of conventional depth charges, but putting enough ordnance on target to be sure of a kill would have required a large naval force. While this could have been done, perhaps, using the search for debris from "Thresher" as a cover, there was a way to minimize the forces actually involved in Phase D. It required the permission of the President, and, had DG offered him sufficient proof, JFK would probably have given it... We can imagine a final target recon, probably with some of the DG Friendlies from our team aboard the sub conducting the recon (well, I'd include it as part of the scenario), verifying the DO city really was where the intel (and the captured saboteur?) indicated it was. And thinking of all that salt water above their heads, and hoping they wouldn't suddenly become the _second_ sub the USN lost in as many months in 1963... The "Permit" would have been a good boat for the purpose -- second of the "Thresher" class, she was fast, deep-diving (most estimates I've seen are in the 1,000-1,300 foot range), and state of the art for the era. She made the first submerged SUBROC launch about a month before the loss of her older sister, and (even if DG had quite prudently left out telling them just _who_ owned the "undersea fortress"), her crew would probably have highly motivated to do their part to strike back at the foes who had killed 129 of their friends! Unfortunately, during the time-frame in question (and for a considerable time before and after), DANFS (Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships) tells us she was in the wrong ocean! The "Thresher" class (soon redesignated the "Permit" class -- sailors are a brave but superstitious lot) was new in 1963, and my research indicates the very few which were completed by April-May 1963 were similarly unavailable. The sub I think DG and the Navy used in RIPTIDE was the "Tullibee" (SSN-597). (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/1670/) The boat had some engineering problems on occasion (leading to some crewmen nicknaming her "Building 597"), but, according to DANFS, she would have been in the area ("engaged in sonar evaluations and nuclear submarine tactical exercises"), if the call had gone out... > > If the nuclear option was selected, the kill could have been >accomplished by a single Mk 101 nuclear depth bomb, delivered by S-2 >Tracker >aircraft. This weapon yielded about 10 KT, and could be triggered >hydrostatically or by time fuze. Our data (the Sourcebook) indicates the ordnance was delivered by air. The kill could have been made from a surface or submerged platform, but someone (possibly the President) decided on air delivery, perhaps for security reasons (limiting those actually launching the ordnance to a small aircrew instead of a comparatively large destroyer or submarine crew). Possibly, all or most of the aircrew making the kill would have been DG Friendlies in the Naval Aviation community... My personal suggestion for the plane used in the strike would have been a P5B (or it might have still been called the P5M in those days) Martin Marlin (http://www.vpnavy.com/webdocp5m.html), delivering a single Mk 101 LULU NDB (http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Usa/Weapons/Mk34lulu.jpg). The weapon would have been slowed by a tail-mounted 12 foot parachute, which would have auto-released on impact with the water, ensuring that the plane was clear of the spray-dome produced by the explosion. For some idea of what the burst would have looked like to your watching team members, check the "Agerholm" website at http://www.agerholm.com -- select the video clip of Operation DOMINIC. (USS "Agerholm" (DD-826) was the firing ship for the first live test shot of the nuclear-tipped ASROC antisubmarine rocket in May, 1961.) >IIRC, the ASROC was indeed >given at least one live service-test -- I've seen pictures of the spray >dome >from the explosion, dwarfing the destroyer "Hambledon", which launched the >weapon. Actually, it was the "Agerholm" (see above) -- I confused the name of the DD that live-fired the ASROC with that of one of the candidates for the "destroyer Hamilton" that transported the team for the Black Island op... Sorry! Sorry also for the length of the post! Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 3:39 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Crawler war ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew John Farrow > mark mcfadden wrote :- : > > > > << What would insects do that bugs and chemicals can't? >> > > Replenish their numbers without extra logistics? > > is having the bugs breeding in the wild wise ? surly they will be hard > enough to control without the possibilty that they can cross breed in the > wild - I agree - you would want to make sure they were sterile. In this context the hymenoptera (ants/bees), which have sterile castes anyway, are an obvious starting point. Add to that the fact that they have been domesticated for a long time (bees anyway) and so we are used to handling them. The Glove Cleaner (A thought - Crawler War: the genesis of the Post-Human beetles?) From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steven Kaye [box_nine@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 10:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: THE AUTUMN WIND At 8:01 PM -0400 4/28/00, The Man in Black wrote: [AUTUMN WIND snipped] Nice to see that there are some things that even creep edwards out. Which leads to an interesting question - should experienced dreamers be more freaked out by entropic manifestations a la COUNTDOWN? Less? The same as anyone else? Keep in mind, the Dreamlands is a place where you can find Cornish manors in the middle of nowhere, where your clothes can come alive and try to squeeze you, etc. Steven ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Steven Kaye box_nine@ix.netcom.com Reason - rationality - is a concentration camp, where the sets of concepts for surviving in a chaotic universe form vast, though finite, rows of huts, separated into blocks by electric fences, which the searchlights of Attention rove over, picking out now one group of huts, now another. Thoughts, like prisoners - imprisoned for their own security and safety - scurry and march and labour in a flat two-dimensional zone, forbidden to leap fences, gunned down by laser beams of madness and unreason if they try to. Ian Watson, THE EMBEDDING From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 3:42 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people) In a message dated 4/29/00 9:30:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, doctor.dee@libero.it writes: << Gentlemen (and ladies) - we need a FAQ, and we need it damn fast. It's been discussed a lot of times before, but now we are spending hours discussing things that a proper FAQ would clear in a sec and no problemo. No more lone justice.>> Yeah, like he said. I do admit to the healthy and reflexive taste for *really ignorant* Newbie-smacking that is felt by all healthy organisms, but they should be like the sherbet between courses, just enough to cleanse the palate before continuing. So definitely, only the *truly sociopathic and clueless* will get through a gauntlet of FAQ. Think of it as evolution in action. Any future CEO that can get past a link on the page where they get the instructions to sign up can be trounced soundly with alarums and excursions and an absolutely clean conscience. It will be glorious. << The material has to be readily accessible - so a list of TDTD or 'topics done to death' would also be good. TDTD items are to be indicated not so that people no longer post on them, but simply so that someone will know they have to check what's been said before and _then_ come to the fore. New input on old issues is always welcome etcetera.>> I wouldn't be coy with that caveat. I would emphasize in BOLD type, all caps that we don't want to discourage a new take on an old subject. That's what DG is, isn't it? I've seen a few curt posts that said "Check the Ice Cave". I knew the people who posted it and knew that it was just shorthand. The fact that they responded indicates to me that they cared. But I think a few people got shut down and didn't poke their head out for awhile, and look what happened to the weather back east because of it. This isn't a game people, lives are at stake. So I wouldn't leave it at a one sentence declaration either, I think the sentiment should be expanded upon. << Also, we NEED a page of clear, irony-free netiquette basics - nothing special, but the essentials: quote trimming, reply style, etc.>> 100% irony-free? Frankly, I don't know if I could do that. I gave up gluttony, stupidity, cupidity, servility, humility, antinomy, ignomony, and misogyny to increase my irony and inscrutability scores, and there's no turning back. But, I would be willing to write a sidebar that explains *why* those things will harsh a perfectly good list. Not philosophy; the layman techie explanation of why hypertext or HTML spews across a message the way it does, maybe even why Internet mail and gateways do that. With examples showing what the page looks like to a digest or archive reader. I have this sappy notion that healthy people tend to do the right thing when they know why they are doing it. But these same people are also living harried lives of quiet desperation, subliminally reminded of their slave status with every peremptory authoritarian eructation that tells them in agonizing micro-managed excruciating detail to just do what they say, shut up that's why. So maybe they would be a little stubborn if told to turn off the fucking wallpaper if they never scrolled past their own signature and saw the extra page of the same damn thing framed in gibberish. But explain to them, and you have a partner. In a perfect world. << And a short, on-focus 'Dealing with the MiB (before he deals with you)' primer is also essential. I'm pretty sure he can write one himself that will be a joy to read and also very clear and informative.>> Sidebar time as well. I'd like to see some short *short* takes on the subject from some different POVs. People Magazine time; 'Dealing With The MiB' in one bowel movement. Hmmmmm. Perhaps I should clarify that....naaahhhh. << I'm sorry if this will sound as conceited or foolish ('who is this Doc Dee chap anyway?') >> Only the shoggoth-taming creator and curator of The Ice Cave, one-stop shopping for wazzup on the list. Digests are the signal *and* noise, the Ice Cave is the good stuff lovingly snipped and massaged and collated and threaded and rendered coherent. All this for *free* you lucky people, and all by volunteer labor. Doctor Dee! Davide Mana; ladies and gentlemen. Doer and the hardest working man in geo biz today! << - but I want to stress again the fact that we need a serious, clear and straightforward document.>> Shit. << Irony is sometimes missed by some (consider someone for whom English is not the first language, ie) and it would be extremely stupid to not be completely clear in a FAQ. >> Alright alright alright, I *get* it. Needs of the many, yada yada. But I don't have to like it. So there. << The fact that someone cannot get slang or other terms does not mean he is not welcome as long as he has something good to contribute, right?>> Would you give it a rest? Jeeez, I *got* it. ;-P << Which is a lot of nice words, but again we need to start and do it. I'm ready to help. Any others? It would be a nice thing to do ASAP, and a fitting celebration for the second year of activity of this list.>> I'm there dude. Mark McFadden Sorry for this silly lecturing, but I'm tired and I want the old sparkling discussions back. ;> Best wishes. Davide Mana >> From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steven Kaye [box_nine@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 4:00 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: CultNet At 3:08 PM -0500 4/28/00, Russell Mirabelli wrote: > >Basically, once you're a devoted cultist, it defines your life. You really >can't waffle here. Either you're on the bus, or you're off the bus. Yeah, >you might hold down a job at the local diner washing dishes for a week or >so, but then they're going to ask you to work evenings one night-- and it >was your turn to steal occult tome, watch Sonny & Cher reruns, whatever>. Job's gotta go, >because serving >takes first priority. Keep in mind that UNKNOWN ARMIES is all about obsession, though. You get some obsessed dysfunctional cultists in HPL (Rogers in "The Horror in the Museum" comes to mind), but you also get the Brooklyn Lilith-worshippers in "The Horror in Red Hook." And don't underestimate the tendency of people to not make a fuss. The latest SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN has an interesting article on crowding and stress. Essentially, it suggests that at least for primates, the rat model of reacting to overcrowding by cannibalism, sexual deviance, etc. doesn't necessarily apply. Instead, you get what the authors call "the elevator effect" - you limit eye contact and social interaction. Unwashed guy gives people a mad stare on the subway - everyone suddenly gets absorbed in their paper, looks away, etc. The same thing applies to noticing abnormal behavior on the part of neighbors and co-workers. Keep in mind the reaction of Milwaukee cops to seeing a naked boy, bleeding from the rectum, running out of Dahmer's apartment. >Actually, sure there *might* be half-assed cultists, but they're not >likely to be a threat to anyone. Until they get their whole ass into the >bargain, that is. They also serve...consider the possibilities of a servant of [fill in the blank] working in the IRS. Or the DMV. Or in a missile base. Dennis Lehane's SACRED has a good, if likely-implausible example of this. If you really want to go out on a limb, consider a scenario like Philip K. Dick's CLANS OF THE ALPHANE MOON. Steven ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Steven Kaye box_nine@ix.netcom.com Reason - rationality - is a concentration camp, where the sets of concepts for surviving in a chaotic universe form vast, though finite, rows of huts, separated into blocks by electric fences, which the searchlights of Attention rove over, picking out now one group of huts, now another. Thoughts, like prisoners - imprisoned for their own security and safety - scurry and march and labour in a flat two-dimensional zone, forbidden to leap fences, gunned down by laser beams of madness and unreason if they try to. Ian Watson, THE EMBEDDING From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 4:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Psych Support (was Ugandan Cult Mass Suicide) On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:01:28 +0100 "Andy Robertson" writes: > Interesting that you mentioned Hawaii...Have you been quarreling with MIB again? Phil > 1 Kiloton is 4.6 x 10^12 joules > > So you're talking about 200 Kilotons. > > Not the planet. Hawaii, maybe. But didn't we know that? > > > The Glove Cleaner > > > > The Glove Cleaner > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 4:16 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people) On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:42:13 EDT LizardRoi@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 4/29/00 9:30:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > doctor.dee@libero.it writes: > > << Gentlemen (and ladies) - we need a FAQ, and we need it damn fast. > It's been discussed a lot of times before, but now we are spending > hours > discussing things that a proper FAQ would clear in a sec and no > problemo. > No more lone justice.>> > 1: Check out the Glorantha digest for a short, concise etiquette note. 2: If you're going to screech "Check out the Ice Cave" at every newbie attach the damn web address to the end of all DG newsletters. If they can't find it they aren't responsible for it. 3: FAQ should not become a cannon. Free thinking is what makes DG one of the best RPG newsletters around. That's my tuppence worth. Phil Posehn Skunk,n. An animal that makes music for the deaf when kicked. Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Janusz A. Urbanowicz [alex@bofh.torun.pl] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:19 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Deep One Society, above the surface > Wrong, and for all the wrong reasons. Hybrid Deep Ones brushing the dust > of fallow Iowa off their shoulders, drifting toward the big city and the > slumbering ocean are not the sort to commit crimes like rape. Unless it's > in an accidental manner like Frankenstein's monster tragically tossing the > cute little girl into the drink. They certainly wouldn't have any magic > spells, only dissonant dreams to haunt their memories. > > These Hybrids are big time losers, the shabby people forced under our > notice. They are not villains big and bold, Orks unleashed, but rather > quiet symbols of the failure of humanity. Their long march to the sea > shows us that only the mysteries of the ocean can keep promises of > awakening. > > No masters these, but adepts to the Fate of us all. This is just a random association: From: http://home.istar.ca/~eggvegg/symmetry.html#Warp The Dark Apostles There is a cult which worships foul powers from beyond the void. The cult calls itself the Dark Legion and the deities it worships are known as the Dark Apostles. Collectively, the cult and the Apostles are the tools of the Dark Symmetry, a power from beyond our sphere of existence bent on destroying our world. The Apostles each represent a different facet of the Symmetry - Ilian, Mistress of the Void, is their leader - Algeroth, the Dark Lord of Technology, fulfills mankind's greatest desires for power and advancement - Muawijhe, the Lord of Visions, spirals humanity down into his dark consciousness - Demnogonis, the Befouler, corrupts with plague, famine, war, and disaster. The cult is widespread throughout Europe and Asia, with many powerful members. However, it is significantly less a factor in the rest of the world, although it still is a force to be reconed with. [ -- redacted -- ] MUAWIJHE, Outer God Muawijhe ''Deep within dread caverns and high atop unatainable peaks the careless will find Muawijhe, the Sender of Dreams. When I first encountered his cyclopean powers, I nearly forgot my faith in my rush to fall down and worship his dark presence. He corrupts from within, tempting and teasing the darkest fantasies of man. He is the drug pusher, the child pornographer, the serial rapist, the child who pulls wings off of flies -- in all of us. Let the haughty and foolhardy be warned -- Muawijhe will come for you. Your pretenses of 'civilization' and 'culture' will not save you. Muawijhe sees all and his tendrils reach to the very extents of imagined space. Do not assume you are safe from his powers, as I did, or you will suffer my fate.'' - Soray Esthay, ''Of the Legion'' [ -- redacted -- ] Alex -- * | Janusz A. "Alex" Urbanowicz, \ Home: --+~| | http://eris.phys.uni.torun.pl/~alex/ \ Work: `_|/ | Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife -- chopping off what's | | incomplete and saying: "Now, it's complete because it's ended here." From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Janusz A. Urbanowicz [alex@bofh.torun.pl] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:16 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Astropalaeobiology > >Oh yes I do. I've been there. Not palaeontology - High Energy Physics. > > Oh, dear. > H.E.P.,now - do you too feel the hot breath of the engineers waiting at > your back to ransack your hut, burn down the village and steal your women, > not to mention get the few jobs available? > Sure we geologists do. > >and if you think paleontologists have it > >hard . . . . > > 'But all this is kind of, like, useless, right?' > Try facing that at the end of a lecture on your research project. > We HAVE it hard. > > On the other hand, many go to Private Sector Development and strike the big > time. > >From which.... > > ObDG - the already mentioned University/MJ12 connection, and more. > Considering how hard is to get grants for research, how easy it is for a > reasonably ruthless organization to get mercenary minded scientists with > the social conscience of a gnat to do dirty work? > Do they really need to be attached tyo a university? > Is New World Industries getting the better brains in the market, and the > least morally restrained researchers? > Is this bad or what? It is not for 'mercenary minded scientist'. Just go for the poorer countries. I finished my studies in Physics last year (still have to get my M.Sc.). Then I had a choice: go as postgrad, aiming at at Ph.D. in four years - you get about $200 a month/person (this is enough for living if living in a dorm, a commercial rent will take about $100-$200), go find yourself a job (no experience in the business) - about $300-$500 (this is the direct pay - the amount you get 'on hand' the actual one before taxes and social security is about twice and social security gives you free medical service) in my city, or wait for a miracle. Ok, I cheated a little about this $300-$500 - I am quite good as UNIX guru and networking (crypto being a hobby for me then) so I'd get about $500 - a quite good pay here. Anyway I got the miracle - I was offered a job for say a few times more in software startup (an IPO was mentioned last week, and options too). As a computer security specialist. The tricky part is that the job is in Warsaw (250 km from my home city, Toruñ), and I hate living there (my city is World Culture Heritage, lots of medieval archiitecture, and Warsaw is big stinking, unorganized and just in general sucks. And in some cases is more expensive tha New York). If I could get job in physics here for half the current pay, my boss would receive my letter of resignation in no time. I know a lot of physicists, biochemists working nights as DTP operators and days as scientists - to survive and work with things they like. So, if New World Industries wants to hire a few good and devoted biochemists in Poland, just let me know. Alex -- * | Janusz A. "Alex" Urbanowicz, \ Home: --+~| | http://eris.phys.uni.torun.pl/~alex/ \ Work: `_|/ | Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife -- chopping off what's | | incomplete and saying: "Now, it's complete because it's ended here." From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 4:44 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Crawler war and Ratwar ansy roberston wrote :- . > Insects have a simple nervous system, which it may be possible to control > and tune in relatively sophisticated ways. > > There is, for example, the control of insect agents through pheremones: > the insects could be bred to leave soldiers dosed in certain chemicals > unhurt, but to stay close to them. > > Spray your troops with agent X, flood the battlefield with mutant bees of > matching strain not-X, and away you go. As your soldiers advance the bees > stay near them (say within 100 meters) but sting everyone *else*. > > Any positive ideas extrapolating along those or similar lines? > the visual senses of insects are very well developed and imo represent the best way of vectoring them onto the intended target . this after all is theier natural behaviour - as most flowering plants use the visual stiluli of the flower as primary attraction for pollenting insects . also IIRC the compound eyes of insects are sensetive to light frequenceis outside visual spectrom ( i vaguely remeber something about bees beeing able to track the sun as part of thier dance to tell the hive where to forage ) . this would make an IR or UV strobe carried on the webbing of friendly forces n ideal and weatherproof saftey system to protect them from attack by freindly bugs , also this sysyem would be enemy "hack " proof - the first wave relesed would be trained to treat all objects emmiting the strbe signal as freindly , then should the enemy brwak the code , a second wave would home in on the same ginnal as hostile , while genuine frendly forces have already swittched to a new signal to protect them against the wave 2 bugs yours andy . From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:30 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RIPTIDE (long) (was Re: DG: Useful Resources for Deep One Society ... In a message dated 4/29/00 3:36:51 PM Central Daylight Time, theherald@hotmail.com writes: << A modern submarine, operating at 20+ knots, would not be an easy target for swimming Deep Ones to intercept. If they were able to intercept the boat, fouling her perhaps with nets or grapnels, they would have been faced with the problem of breaching several inches of HY-80 steel, or possibly jamming the diving planes in "down" position (producing a "jam dive" excursion below collapse depth). >> Generally speaking subs operate especially early nuke hunter-killers like Thresher at MUCH lower speed - passive sonar reception degrades rapidly with the sound of your own power plant and screw cavitation. With a Los Angeles class sub (more modern than the old Thresher) operating speeds are more like 10-15 knots when being stealthy (which is what a sub does best) high speeds are left for short dashes and evasion. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nick Brownlow [stabernide@netscape.net] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 7:53 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: [FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people)] >Mark McFadden uncharacteristically (?) seriously writes If McFadden is writing seriously, then something is indeed rotten in Denmark. Something (else) needs to be done. >Gentlemen (and ladies) - we need a FAQ, and we need it damn fast. Indeed. >The material has to be readily accessible - so a list of TDTD or 'topics >done to death' would also be good. Which could well turn out to be the stumbling block over which this little project falls to its doom- I mean, could we all honestly agree on the contents of such a list? I prefer another reference to the already well outlined Ice Cave contents page- something along the lines of;- "The DG mailing list welcomes (no, really) meaningful discussion on any and all (on-topic, dg relevant) subjects, but be aware that given the fact that we have now been on active status for the better part of two years, many 'obvious' topics have already been covered and archived by thread at . First time posters are advised to peruse the documents available here, rather than needlessly duplicating observations and insights that were covered in depth only several months previous. "On the other hand, few threads can ever really be 'done to death' (notice the number of Deep One/Tcho-Tcho discussions), and as such, if after reading through the archives, you still feel you have questions that need answering or insights that require voicing, then by all means; let's see what you're made of." and so on. Another thing to bear in mind (as a goal to achieve in the far flung future) is how well the Ice Cave is geared up towards the casual or first time interloper structure wise (not that I have any problems with it myself, but perhaps some newbie opinion polling would not be amiss) just some initial thoughts. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nerva Vels [nerva@escape.com] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:02 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: [FAQ Urgency (was Re: DG: People...people who hate people)] Nick Brownlow says: > "The DG mailing list welcomes (no, really) meaningful discussion on any and > all (on-topic, dg relevant) subjects, but be aware that given the fact that we > have now been on active status for the better part of two years, many > 'obvious' topics have already been covered and archived by thread at Address>. First time posters are advised to peruse the documents available > here, rather than needlessly duplicating observations and insights that were > covered in depth only several months previous. > > "On the other hand, few threads can ever really be 'done to death' (notice the > number of Deep One/Tcho-Tcho discussions), and as such, if after reading > through the archives, you still feel you have questions that need answering or > insights that require voicing, then by all means; let's see what you're made > of." HELLO this makes such good sense!!! Why not make it a automatic response to the initial subscription to the list!??? Yay? nay? Nervy From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@disinfo.net] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 10:34 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: FAQ and MiB's Brain (was Re: DG: Psych Support) On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:45:28 EDT Michael Layne wrote: > The intense, extremely localized magnetic and gravitic fields necessary >to contain it could mask the antimatter's presence from the puny scanning >instruments of 2000 AD Earth! It would also explain why his computer keeps breaking down. OK, I think we once made up a list of THings to Be in the FAQ, but I've lost those old messages, so: *Overview *Netiquette *Recurring Threads and Where to Find THem in the Ice Cave (with strong reminder that we welcome new insights/questions on old topics) *WHy the MiB is such an asshole (hey, that was *his* title, not mine!)--perhaps with insights from various listmembers on the MiB phenomenon, positive and negative *Stuff to Avoid Because It Tends to Start Flame Wars (or How to Talk about Authors/Movies/Nationalities/Religions in a Civilized and Constructive Manner) *DG Fiction, Humor, Items of Mutual Interest, and In-Character Posts (are welcome--with blanket "May INclude Graphic Descriptions and Unsettling Situations" warning) *Useful URLs: Delta Green, Tynes-Cowan Corp, Ice Cave, Archives, Section 8, DGML Member Directory, Chaosium *Miscellaneous (commonly encountered slang, weird list memes, 23, etc) Now let's apportion it out and get writing. I nominate Alphonse for the Overview (he's the Owner, after all), Chris Womack for the Netiquette part (he did a fine job back when he was List Owner), Davide Mana for the Recurring Threads part (who would know better where to find things on the Ice Cave?), the MiB for the MiB part (he's already written it, after all), Mark McFadden for the Stuff to Avoid part (for reasons clear to anyone who's been here for a while), Shane Ivey for the Fiction/Humor/etc part (since a lot of it will end up on the DG site), Shane again for the Useful URLs (since he's already written that on the DG site--just cut and paste), and everyone for the Miscellaneous Weirdness. So who will be our overall Compiler, who whips this into shape? Alphonse? ANd what more (or less) do we need? Let's not spend too mch time talking about it--after all, we can always change it later. Dave cleverly avoiding any responsibility for himself From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Qstor@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 10:39 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FAQ and MiB's Brain (was Re: DG: Psych Support) In a message dated 4/29/00 11:37:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, superdave@disinfo.net writes: << *WHy the MiB is such an asshole (hey, that was *his* title, not mine!)--perhaps with insights from various listmembers on the MiB phenomenon, positive and negative >> I just joined the list the other day and his comments I felt bordered on rude.... From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@disinfo.net] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 11:05 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FAQ and MiB's Brain (was Re: DG: Psych Support) On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 23:39:07 EDT Qstor@aol.com wrote: >I just joined the list the other day and his comments I felt bordered on >rude.... (Bordered? He must be losing his touch.) Well, anyway, that's why we need a FAQ. And welcome to the list. Dave From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Qstor@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 11:10 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: FAQ and MiB's Brain (was Re: DG: Psych Support) In a message dated 4/30/00 12:08:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, superdave@disinfo.net writes: << And welcome to the list. Dave >> thanks From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of EdDrWho@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 11:33 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Zephyr In a message dated 4/28/00 4:43:01 PM Central Daylight Time, mib@cyberspace.org writes: > A Night at the Opera was a yummy chocolate shake? What is ALPHONSE up to > this time? Hidden messages in the straw wrapper? Could work...they wrap the straw with a cylindrical cookie-thing. A message *could* conceivably be concealed withing, though it'd look pretty funky. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 12:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: The Wolrd Ends...When? Sorry, running a little bit late (as usual) on this thread and wanted to throw this out to the list. This is the timeline I envision (and use in my campaigns) for the EndTimes. As usual I add my disclaimers of its all my opinion and not necessarily loyal to anybody's canon and your mileage may vary with it (and so on, ad nauseum). The EndTimes were set into motion by World War One, the Great Depression, and (especially) World War Two. These events reshaped and changed the face of our world forever. For the mythos-related forces, these times were critical. As the stars began to come right the influence of the GOOs/OGs became more pronounced, subtly influencing humanity's path. The lesser mythos races started undergoing changes, some becoming extinct or departing Earth (such as the Sand Dwellers or Lliogor) and some changing tactics (like the Mi-Go). The old cults began to adapt to the changing times or died on the vine. This was the reason for the sudden surge in mythos activity during this time. You had the clash of the old ways with the new times, something mirrored in both mankind and mythos. When everything had cleared, you had new orders in both arenas. This was the signal of the coming times. The great events of the first half of the 20th century set the stage for the time we live in now, a time I call the EndTimes Prelude. We are witnessing the prophecies of Lovecraft coming to fruition. Runaway Nationalism makes us more insular and war-like. Technology is pushing us to be more than human, "improving" ourselves. We pollute and deforest and all the lovely things the Delta Green book outlines that are leading us towards our extinction. The mythos forces are organizing and banding together, as we see with Tiger Transit allying with the Fate which is working with the Karotechia (and in essence led by the same entity) and so on. Thousands are flocking to mythos fronts. Those groups that prosper and grow find themselves drawn towards the larger, established groups, increasing their power further. Those that don't make it, still serve a purpose for spreading chaos (sort of a twist on the guerrilla concept of "let a thousand flowers bloom"). We will continue to "progress" as we push ourselves into the abyss but this plan isn't simply for our destruction. Every act we play out has some importance to the return of the GOO/OGs. That's the part we play, the cults play and why that meddler, Nyarly, interacts. Our destruction is secondary and would come simply with the return. The part we play out is to pave that way and make it easier for the GOOs when they wake up. We are like a maid service for the GOOs. We aren't needed and we are largely unnoticed but the things we do make it a little more comfortable in the end. We give wake-up calls (those summoning spells and the way those cultists are always trying to tear down those pesky prison barriers), warm up the room (greenhouse effect makes things warmer and changes the atmosphere to be a bit like it was before when the GOOs were awake…after all, wouldn't want Cthulhu catching an annoying chill), put the house in order (nice of us to move slumbering deities around and gather artifacts in convenient places for when they get home) and so on. And like a good maid service, we do it while they are out and then disappear. Now I see all of this coming to head for the 2030s part of the Endtimes timeline. We will have reached a "cyberpunk" future: dirty, gritty and where life is cheap while we are surrounded by the greatest of (human) technological marvels. We will have become fierce and territorial, fighting for our mega-corp masters or the shattered remnants of the nation-states. Nyarly will have completed the creation of his uber-cult, pulling together the elements of the Fate, Karotechia, COT, Tiger Transit and so on. He will rule behind the scenes through an occult elite, who in turn will run thousands of fronts (many quite mundane but still adding to the overall power and influence of the human-mythos alliance). The barriers of the GOOs/OGs will then begin crumbling. I don't see this as a sudden, one-day event. Instead, an ever-increasing level of "strange" activities will begin to signal the apocalypse (and provide some great gaming). Disasters will erupt. You will see DO hybrids changing quickly and running amok. The dead start to rise under the control of cult necromancers. Ships are sunk by waking star-spawn. Humanity will fight back but between the "unusual" forces of the mythos and the activities of the cultist fifth column, we will be pushed back. News reports will cover the valiant siege of Boston against the Deep Ones or the attack on London by star Spawn. Then, one by one, the GOOs will return. Between the wars and disasters and the effects of their return, billions will die and the Earth will be reshaped more to their liking. I still don't see this as the complete extinction, however. Some will simply escape the planet, taking their chances in the stars. Many will be grabbed up by the Mi-Go for their purposes. Many will retreat to small enclaves, fighting for simple survival against the other survivors, driven at least half-mad by events. The Deep Ones will probably set up prison breeding camps for humans they capture to continue their species. Finally, those who were loyal to the GOO/OGs (such as the immortal Chinese masters of Cthulhu and some of the followers of Nyarly) will get their "reward" for services rendered, allowed to live and rule their own small empires. These are nothing more than enclaves on a blasted Earth but beggars can't be choosers. They are immortal in the way DOs are, hence violence can kill them (and they are a violent lot). These all then will begin to represent the far-future empires discussed and the divergent branches of humanity. Each "branch" is changing (or being changed) to be something different from what we are now. Eventually, humanity will either become extinct or be absorbed into other species, ending mankind. A final item I like to use is that many of the survivors who aren't assimilated by something else are what eventually devolve to become the coleopterans of the future. That's why the Great Race has an interest in us. They are neither benevolent nor malevolent, but instead seek to both follow the evolutionary changes that will take place in us (to better understand what they will be in the future) and to ensure that the change takes place. They are here to stop any premature extinction, push biotechnology through and so on to subtly provide for their survival and future. To us, they can be allies sometimes and enemies at others. To them, they are simply scientists following a grand experiment. Anyway, that's my take on things to try and get as many of the pieces to fit together. Hope somebody could use it… -Dave K