From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steve Dustin [yetiseti@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:13 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Invisible fiend (was: Re: La Llorna / night-fears) I'd be interested in reading what your sources are. I know I've heard this story before, with some of the serial numbers changed; it wasn't an Italian woman, I'm sure it was American couple, maybe, I can't quite remember exactly. I'm sure it was from some sort of 'From Beyond'-type TV show. If the story dates from the '70s it's probably some sort of Exorcist/Omen/Michelle Remembers type of cash-in. Satan was such a commodity back in the 70s. But, Good God, did I hate those Satan-horror movies (except the Exorcist, gotta love Pazzuzu). My wife made me watch the Omen movies recently, going on about much they scared her. After wasting a few hours of my life, boy did I make fun of her. While we're talking invisibles, I remember reading from a Frank Edwards (I think his name is Frank Edwards) paranormal book from the 50s about some invisibles attacking a poor Philipino girl. According to Frank, the police picked her up and took her to jail, due to her erratic behavior. She was scratched up really bad. When asked what was going on, she claimed two entities were following her about, tormenting her. There was a 'master' type entity in a long cloak, and a 'henchmen', both with bulging eyes, fangs, and claws. She claimed they didn't walk, but hovered above the ground, and could pass through solid objects. Naturally, the police didn't believe her, until they came running into her locked jail cell and watched as long vicious clawmarks started forming on her body before their very eyes. Yeah, can't beat Frank's imagination. There's a ton of scenario seeds in Frank's books, although as a journalistic source they're a little more then dubious. That's if you can get your hands on them. I believe that book was called 'Stranger than Science!'. As far as invisibles in your games go, I heartily recommend it. Nothing scares the bejesus out of your players faster then being attacked by an invisible entity. It works so good it truly amazes me. But Satan falls pretty flat in game, unless you're playing Toon. Steve Dustin yetiseti@hotmail.com _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of box_nine@ix.netcom.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:35 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re: DG: Invisible fiend (was: Re: La Llorna / night-fears) Another Steve wrote: [invisibles story snipped] Reminds me of Robert Bloch's classic "Enoch." Definitely second the use of invisible creatures in game play - a con scenario I ran once (Liam Routt wrote it, IIRC) had an imp-like creature who could turn invisible. I had the little monster pick on one investigator, whispering blasphemies in her ear. The rest of the group was convinced she was dangerously insane (hearing voices, after all), and when she fell into a pit trap of all things, tossed some lit dynamite in after her when she started screaming about something being in there with her. Given the psychological stresses of being a Delta Green agent, I'd imagine this would work even better than regular Call of Cthulhu. Imagine a character haunted by an invisible creature, which is killed. But he still hears the voice. How can you be REALLY sure it's dead? Sadistic Steven The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re:La Llorna / night-fears In a message dated Tue, 5 Dec 2000 2:16:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Dirk R. Festus Festerling" writes: << the whole happening might as well be a kind of "münchhausen-Syndrom" (don´t know if the english terminology is the same, so very short: someone (usually mothers, but other "trusted helpers" as well. last time i saw it used in a plot it was a navy corpsman in a "J A G" re-run ) secretly hurts his trustees/children to get more attention >> In English I believe it's called "Munchausen-by-proxy", and the best recent depiction of it was in 'The Sixth Sense.' Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:58 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Walkabout In a message dated Tue, 5 Dec 2000 2:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Dirk R. Festus Festerling" writes: << not exactly. i found myself "asleep at the wheel" two times on a single trip for some seconds. the first time i didn´t even realize it, but german trucks have a automated speed writer that showed i drove over hundred km/h when 80 >> Sorry about the mixed message. I put quotes around "unconscious" to differentiate it from sleep. I didn't speed, I was in no danger of slamming into anything. I'm sure that I used signals (because I always do, without thinking about it) and I went from the 134 to the 5\10, then moved over to the left hand lanes to transition to the 5 for the 710 connection. I wasn't tired, I was absorbed in thinking about something else with my eyes wide open and my ears tuned to traffic\engine\tires. But I wasn't *consciously* paying any attention. Or maybe my non-verbal right hemisphere did the driving while my left hemisphere was juggling plot and charterization. Do you watch your feet when running up stairs? It's a very complex process as anyone who has tried to program a robot to do it will verify. But we do it with the greatest of ease. Driving itself is an incredibly complex process; add a manual shift and the complexity skyrockets. I have probably driven more than my ration of miles, I started as a field engineer with every Army recruiter, Coast Guard base and Marine supply depot in southern California as my customers. This is an area approximately the size of the UK, but with more traffic. Friends from out-of-state have driven with me and wonder how I can read another car's "body language"; how I know that a car is about to change lanes without signaling, and further, is unaware of my position in that lane. I dunno, I guess I'm really looking at the back of the driver's head rather than his car, gauging the set of the shoulders, seeing them looking at a mirror rather than over the shoulder, things like that. In fact, I don't usually look directly at the car in front of me but at the car ahead of that one, through the windows. Zen and the art of driving. Mark McFadden I get antsy when a character in a movie takes their eyes off of the road to have a dramatic conversation with a passenger. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:33 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re:La Llorna / night-fears LizardRoi@aol.com schrieb: [snip] > > In English I believe it's called "Munchausen-by-proxy", and the best recent > depiction of it was in 'The Sixth Sense.' I know this is kind of off-topic, but I had to flee a cinema in Paris [during my 12 weeks exile from this list early this year] after spoiling the whole film for the crowd by drunkenly shouting out the big surprise of the movie, in the moment the room got dark and the film began. Our frog-eating friends weren't *too* amused. ECKHARD The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Anthony Valterra [zulkir@wizards.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:47 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re(2): DG: RE: Re: La Llorna dgrpg@delta-green.com writes: >>One could even say that the Mythos disrupts >>language, which is shades of the Vibe. When they witness the Mythos, a >>whole layer of verbal metaphor is peeled away and transformed, and >>alters >>their entire metaphor for reality, which in effect alters thier >>reality. >>Suddenly they're speaking in tongues (IA! SHUB-NIGGURATH!) Or perhaps it runs the other way? Perhaps exposure to the Mythos opens the eyes of the exposed to the true reality of their own structure. I'm thinking of a line in DS9 where Jeffrey Comb's character (Weyoun) is confronted with the fact that he has been genetically manipulated to see the Founders as gods. His reply is "Well of course, what else would gods do?" AV The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:45 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re:La Llorna / night-fears In a message dated Tue, 5 Dec 2000 4:35:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) writes: << I know this is kind of off-topic, but I had to flee a cinema in Paris [during my 12 weeks exile from this list early this year] after spoiling the whole film for the crowd by drunkenly shouting out the big surprise of the movie, in the moment the room got dark and the film began. Our frog-eating friends weren't *too* amused. ECKHARD >> First it's giving tourists bad directions, now it's ruining the endings of movies. You go straight to your room young man and think long and hard about this. No TV and no video games. And no porn. This is not going to look good in your Permanent Record. Mark McFadden Not angry, just terribly disappointed. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@fukuoka-u.ac.jp] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:27 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: [CFBY2K] Chapter 6: Connecting The Dots Our Lady of Bringing Together Wildly Diverging Plotlines and Advancing the Story, Nerva Vels, wrote: > (All actions involving throwing of stones and vegetables are to be > petitioned in advance from the Supervisor of Jeers I assume that would be the MiB. Excellent, Nervy! This story is rockin'. And David Clements, you have until December 11 (Pacific Central Time). Ah, another unwitting agent in the Conspiracy of Daves... Dave Prime The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@fukuoka-u.ac.jp] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:43 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Outer Space Colonies From: "Charles Ripper" > Have you found any connections between Ithaqua and the Flying Polyps? No, but if I ever form a rock band, I'm gonna call it "Ithaqua and the Flying Polyps." > After > rereading the Shadow Out of Time, I saw a lot it the way Peaslee described > the FP that would be identical to Ithaqua (ie, controlling winds, associated > with singular footprints, etc.). I never thought of that, but it's an excellent idea. Could it be Ithaqua : Flying Polyps as Cthulhu : Star Spawn? Which may imply that if the Flying Polyps ever got free, it'd be time for the Big Freeze on Earth. And it doesn't necessarily imply that the Polyps serve Ithaqua as the Star Spawn serve Cthulhu--their relationship might not be like that. I may very well use this for the section on Ithaqua in Kurotokage. Thank you! Dave The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Charles Ripper [yeroshka7@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:57 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Outer Space Colonies >From: "David Farnell" Could it be Ithaqua : >Flying Polyps as Cthulhu : Star Spawn? Or even as Shudde M'ell : Cthonians. There are just a couple of hints from which I drew the connection, and I don't know if it was intentional. Ch.R _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Hopt [lhopt@uswest.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:57 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re:La Llorna / night-fears "Dirk R. Festus Festerling" wrote: > the whole happening might as well be a kind of > "münchhausen-Syndrom" (don´t know if the english > terminology is the same, so very short: someone > (usually mothers, but other "trusted helpers" as well. > last time i saw it used in a plot it was a navy > corpsman in a "J A G" re-run ) secretly hurts his > trustees/children to get more attention). Munchausen's Syndrome is when one needs to be sick (i.e. making themselves ill) to feel good about themselves, or something along those lines. Munchausen's-by-proxy is when one needs to make another person ill to feel good (for instance, the mother of the girl in "The Sixth Sense"). Hopt -- "Ow! Ow! Ooooooooh... Ow! Ahhhhhhhh..." The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Charles Ripper [yeroshka7@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:41 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re(2): DG: RE: Re: La Llorna Anthony Valterra wrote: >Or perhaps it runs the other way? Perhaps exposure to the Mythos opens the >eyes of the exposed to the true reality of their own structure. I'm >thinking of a line in DS9 where Jeffrey Comb's character (Weyoun) is >confronted with the fact that he has been genetically manipulated to see >the Founders as gods. His reply is "Well of course, what else would gods >do?" Maybe, but as I was falling into a nap this afternoon, I thought of the Challenge From Beyond 2000 motif of multiple personalities spread around the body. What if the same thing could happen to your language? What if certain consonant clusters could go rogue, or some vowels suddenly go mute? Perhaps this is the essence of the Vibe. Maybe our language is an alien parasite than has become symbiotically attached to us. When we witness certain effects of the Mythos, part of the symbiote reconfigures our psychology, or world-metaphor, in a direction that makes us mad. Ch.R _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@ireland.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:51 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: RE: RE: SPOILERS Re: DG: Outer Space Colonies WARNING: ANOTHER RANT ABOUT THE "AMAZING" IMPORTANCE OF IRELAND: TURN AWAY NOW! No, i can't be bothered naming the agencies: probably because, i don't know. Anyway: something that occured to me is that perhaps there IS a tiff between Ireland & England: Ireland has always had the most concentrated collection of fairy legends in Europe, even considering the Island's small size: who else says the Fairies ran the whole country only 3500 years ago? And where's there's fairies, theres...yes, you named it, fairy forts. Supposed gateways to other places. What if the Brits have had dibs on Ireland since 1200 (given by the sole English pope, ahem ahem) because the number of naturally occuring gates? The highest UFO sighting/Fairy rings in Ireland is Kerry (if you're realistic, its probably because Ireland's in the Gulf Stream, with Kerry at its tip, that allows it such extensive growth), which was never really taken by the English: 1919, where do you think the English got kicked out of first? Munster & Connaught: the Southern and Western Provinces, which are the most rural. use your imaginations for the rest. As for whose running the Irish Gates, well, we have a Department in the Government called "The Department for Heritage, Culture & the Gaeltacht" (Gaeltacht being the zones where more than a few school teachers can speak Irish), which is one of five bodies who gets to distribute Gun lisences...coinkydink? And the Garda Siochana (or Gardai) have always been very insular with their information, and lack any public oversight. Perhaps its PISCES/SGC Vs. Gaeltacht/Gardai? As for venting steam: I recommend you the great Irish game of Hurling. Fastest grass sport in the world; when CuChullain got his name, it was from killing the hound (Cu) of Cullain with a Hurley Stick and Shliotar (hurley ball). Imagine contact-golf with 15 man teams who come off the bench when theres a fight, and go back when its over. Oh yes. And the Girls play it too (but that's called Camogie) Oh, i have to report a manifestation of the Skinless One avatar of Nyarlathotep: Me. My Skin crawled a good 15 feet after i watched the wonderful TV show "Relic Hunter", and its foray to Ireland. Now, i can live with the road signs and taxi-logo's being off, but no, according to that show, Dublin people have Belfast accents, Michael Collins went around beheading English statues in 1916 (even though he was somewhat preoccupied in the GPO, being shot at by an English gunboat and whatnot), Brian Boru lost to the English in the 1200's (even though he had a nasty attack of vikings...in 944), the ex-parliment at College Green (which now is owned by the Bank of Ireland and contains a branch and a sizeable canteen) is the "Irish History Museum", and we hold grudges against entire families 1000 years. No, no sterotypes there. Thus, to rectify it, American history now reads: * George Bush fought the Nazi's in Times Square. * The capital is Baton Rouge, LA. * The White House is so called because only people of a caucasian ethnecity can enter * the 1st man on the moon was James T. Kirk * and the current president is Ronald McDonald. Now, having finished my moment of sarcasm, if you want a good example of a people, don't find something about them, find something BY them. _____________________________________ Get your free E-mail at http://www.ireland.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nerva Vels [nerva@escape.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:55 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: language (in re Llorna 'n such stuff) on a side note, perhaps you can use this to your benefit: I'm of a mind that my typing (which I do almost unconsciously, I'm always ALWAYS typing, whether it be a conversation or an e-mail - I often joke I speak e-mail - or entering data or writing) is another language. It's practically instinctual with me - I don't have to think of the placement of the letters, or the very letters itself, or my fingers. it's instantaneous with thought. So one night, while falling asleep, I thought to myself could this be considered another 'language', one expressed differently than a 'spoken' language? There's that whole thing about the alphabet and all that. My longhand doesn't feel like this. Did I make any sense here? In other words, when I type, it feels like I'm 'speaking' another way, like when I switch from english to spanish and back. Nervy That wierd chick on the list The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of EdDrWho@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:07 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: SPOILERS Re: DG: Outer Space Colonies In a message dated 12/5/00 6:56:02 PM Central Standard Time, jessthecatasc@ireland.com writes: > Now, having finished my moment of sarcasm, if you want a good example of a > people, don't > find something about them, find something BY them. > Like Guiness? Or the hangover? Actually, the French invented the hangover. Lousy Frogs. From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:58 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: language (in re Llorna 'n such stuff) In a message dated Tue, 5 Dec 2000 7:58:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Nerva Vels" writes: << It's practically instinctual with me - I don't have to think of the placement of the letters, or the very letters itself, or my fingers. it's instantaneous with thought. So one night, while falling asleep, I thought to myself could this be considered another 'language', one expressed differently than a 'spoken' language? There's that whole thing about the alphabet and all that. My longhand doesn't feel like this. Did I make any sense here? In other words, when I type, it feels like I'm 'speaking' another way, like when I switch from english to spanish and back. >> You beat me to the punch with a better example. I was about to bring up sign language for the deaf. I got thinking about the language processing areas of the brain and different ways off getting the data into it. For people born without hearing, learning sign language uses the eyes rather than the ears to bring the information in. I wonder if anyone has done any studies on where the brain activity is happening when a deaf person speaks. The (usually) right hemisphere isn't incapable of communication, it just can't use words. Is a signed word a word to the brain? I imagine the instances when a word has to be spelled out by letter being a left hemisphere thing. The advent of typewriters and touch typing shook up some models for the brain\body interface. Touch typists were typing too fast. It wasn't think a letter, type a letter, the text was rapping out too fast, the speed of an impulse along a nerve couldn't keep up with the rate of typing if it had to come all the way from the brain to the hand. It was as if (dun DUN dun duuuuun) the brain was dictating and the hands knew how to spell. Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jay and Mikiko Noyes [ft203004@fsinet.or.jp] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:01 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: RE: Re: La Llorna Mr. Ripper said: >I heard this theory and believed it when I was studying linguistics, too. >I've been having second thoughts though. >The problem with this theory is that it presumes that the verbal language is >the only one that we learn. Why is this important? Because I think that we >learn language as a way to assimilate the world around us. It is the tool >by which we grasp it. Er, actually, it doesn't have to be verbal language at all. On of the studies that seems to support this theory is the development of a Creole sign language after Nicaraguan deaf/mute children, raised using different systems of sign language, were mixed together. Pretty much the same results as it would had they been using a spoken language. >When is it then that children have an easier time learning languages than >adults? It's because the language that they're learning is also teaching >them how to grasp the world. When you reach a certain point in development, >your world-view is set. For most people at a deep level, it never again >changes. Their internal world is composed of a language that they don't >have to think about, and in many cases are unable to think about. Hmm. Maybe I've mispoken somewhat. I do not believe that language itself is hard-wired -- I'm in no way that Chomskian -- I believe that the need to speak it is. The brain seems to require a certain level of communication if it interacts, and if it has the opportunity to interact but does not have access to a language that fulfills those basic needs, it will modify the communication it does have to meet them. Part of the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying lies in the fact that we are talking about two seperate levels of linguistic discussion. What does it mean when you say that "your world-view is set"? I'm more interested in the neurological basis for such a phenomenon. If you want to take the point of view that our language determines our world-view -- a position that I have a number of difficulties with -- we may be actually saying the same thing, but coming from different directions. Given "language as a world-view" as a point of reference, I'm saying that we need a world view and require it to meet certain needs, we get it, and then because we have it, we lose those aspects of cognitive function (the one require a world view) through disuse. Your are saying that we get a world-view, it becomes "set" (which is a bit vague, when you think about it), and then we no longer can change it. Am I correct? >I had a cousin who was about four, and we were talking about owls. For some >reason I had recently learned the word for owl in Latin is bubastis (IIRC). >I tried to tell him that this picture (owl) was a bubastis. It really >disturbed him, and he started to yell that it was an owl. I continued in my >attempts to teach him, but he just became louder in defending its >'owl'-ness. I eventually gave up. And, honestly, I think teaching such >things to adults has been even harder. Although in many ways language determines our world view, I think it is important to keep in mind that it does not have to. As your example indicates, neither "bubastis" and "owl" are both equally true and untrue ways of describing a certain type of nocturnal, predatory bird. However, a feral child would also be able to recognize such an animal, yet have to word for it, or even if such a child did have a word, would not have a syntax with which to speak about it. Yet, it would nevertheless recognize the bird, and might even have an opinion about it (good, bad, tasty, whatever). I don't believe that language determines our world view, but rather acts as a filter, coloring our impression of external event and objects. However, for many, if not most, people the filter is determinalistic because they haven't trained themselves to think about the filter (language) itself. Personally, I have long been a proponant of General Semantics, which is sort of a linguistic philosophy for viewing how we view the world. There are websites for it, if you are interested, but the gist of it is realizing that, although we use language as a tool for describing reality and making generalizations, they are just that, and that certain words color our impressions. It's quite a useful philosophy at times, and I think we would benefit from it being taught in our schools. >To make an extreme statement, I don't think that the language that I'm using >is my native language, even though I don't really speak anything except >English. My 'native language' is the pre-logical non-standardized >collective of sounds that I experienced as a child through which I >originally grasped the world. I have since picked up a number of words to >further my communication potential. I have picked them up in a number of >different languages and have discovered that there really is no difference >in learning a new word in English or a new word in Chinese, or French, or >Swahili. It's a matter of sound and rhythm, repeated until natural. Although I completely agree that your native language is pre-logical -- in fact, this is quite important to my view of how second language works -- although I am not sure what you mean by non-standardized. However, learning even a single factor about a single word, say pronunciation, is harder than you think. In a single word, say "word," for example, there are myriad rules governing the pronunciation of each sound, rules based on the interaction of that sound with the sounds around it and, sometimes, elsewhere in the sentence. This does not even touch intonation and stress. People from mono-linguistic childhoods almost never learn these rules completely, no matter how much they practice. They may be able to pass as native speakers in casual conversation, but there is usually some small factors that give them away to more detailed linguistic analysis. When you add in a words proper syntactic and semantic use, the chance of non-native characteristics becomes even greater. This is not to deny the fact that people do become capable of speaking in a native-like manner; it's just more difficult than people realize to do so completely. >There have been occurances, though, of children raised in communicatively >deprived circumstances and with little or no opportunity to interact with >others. >I think that these people have been able to create a metaphor for the world >based on something other than language. This makes their grammar distinctly >alien to people who have grown up with a language. Er, no. Unless you believe that there is a natural inner language, then no. A grammar -- syntax -- is intrinsic to the definition of a language. What feral children, and, for that matter, apes, dolphins, and certain other animals have, is semantic skills, or rather, potential semantic skills. Semantics -- the idea that a sound or an image can be linked to a certain meaning -- seems to be integral to a different and more anciently developed part of our mind. Syntax is the tricky bit because it lets us conveniently speak about things that do not exist without ever having to see them -- such as polka-dotted mountains of tentacle-waving goo, with clowns sprinkled on top -- or things that will occur in other times. Feral children have trouble doing this, or even ever learning to do this. >It isn't that they are obsessed with the GOOs per se, but their reality >would disappear without them. That is sometimes the reason that the >ancients worshipped their gods (I'm thinking of Kali, in particular), for >fear of what might happen when they stopped. Now that is a rather cool idea, although I disassociate it from the topic of linguistics. How about this: Instead of "their" reality disappearing without the GOOs, what if we said reality in general, that the GOOs are all that is real, and that the rest of the multiverse/universe depends on their existence. Most of these aspects are mindless, but some have developed a intelligence of their own, the most notable being Nyarthotep, one of the few aspects to not only notice life, but actually interact with it on various levels. Nyarlathotep -- the messenger -- could actually be the doorway, the threshold between the universe and the various intelligences that have cropped up within. Hmm. Nyarlathotep as the "mind" of the multiverse? Well, I'm tired and babbling, as I believe that last sentence shows, so I had better sign off for now. That last paragraph may have given me a game idea, but I'm going to have think about it for a bit. Have a good one, Jay The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of LizardRoi@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:35 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: RE: Re: La Llorna In a message dated 12/5/00 8:53:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, ft203004@fsinet.or.jp writes: << Nyarlathotep -- the messenger -- could actually be the doorway, the threshold between the universe and the various intelligences that have cropped up within. Hmm. Nyarlathotep as the "mind" of the multiverse? >> That's among his other mercurial traits in his Trickster aspect. What if he's not the "mind" of the multiverse, but the significant observer? We exist as we are; are not roiling primordial fire so long as Nyarlathotep is paying attention. When he's not looking we're Schroedinger's Cat before you open the box. Seeing is believing. Maybe that's what the Avatars are about. Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip_Ward@yestelevision.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:20 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Walkabout The lizard king opined: > I wasn't tired, I was absorbed in thinking about something else with my eyes > wide open and my ears tuned to > traffic\engine\tires. But I wasn't > *consciously* paying any attention. Or maybe my non-verbal right# > hemisphere did the driving while my left hemisphere was juggling > plot and charterization. I get exactly the same thing when I used to have to do my commute, get out of the house, switch on, and tune out. Beyond a certain point in the trip, I find my center and drive all the way there in perfect safety without any concious memory of the trip. There's also a side-effect, if you "accidentally" drop into this mode, then you'll find yourself following that exact same route, even if you were meant to be going somewhere else. It happens a lot in my family who all do the same old routes, over and over again. Perhaps we have a certain pre-dispoition otwards it because of brain-chemistry, whatever. We call it the auto-pilot. Now, have you ever been in that state and found yourself in a life-threatening situation? Do you think you'd actually react if the car in front of you went into a sideways skid and you started catching up on them rapidly? That's the bit that worries me. Can the "muscle-memory" handle an unexpected situation whilst the brain is playing over last night's argument, today's work or the weekends gaming session? Now, take that feeling of no memory, lack of control and panic that you might be experiencing when you think about encountering a dangerous situation, and multiply it because you just took a pot-shot at a presidential hopeful and there are five secret service men piled on top of you with guns in your face screaming for compliance. Congratulations, you are anMJ-12 brainwashing success, welcome to hell.. One more little thing, when close protection agents (bodyguards) are taught defensive driving in a convoy when the three limo's are tail to tail, that's exactly what they watch. 100 yards up the road. they can't possibly react to the car in front of them in time, but they can see what he's going to react to and make their moves at the same time. Remember when trying to overtakea car full of bad guys, make sure your driver is on the opposite side of the car to the enemy, That way he's protected by the bodies of his passengers and you mazimise the 'broadside' you can deliver into their car :) Phil Ward www.emerald-hammer.org The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:49 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Nyarly & language ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay and Mikiko Noyes > How about this: Instead of "their" reality disappearing without > the GOOs what if we said reality in general, that the GOOs > are all that is real, and that the rest of the multiverse/universe > depends on their existence. Most of these aspects are mindless, > but some have developed a intelligence of their own, the most > notable being Nyarthotep, one of the few aspects to not only# > notice life, but actually interact with it on various levels> I like this, if it doesn't get too mystical and indefinite. Hmmmm.. My original thought about "La Llorna" was that Bloody Mary was being "nurtured" into existence. Somehow "constructed" by those street children. That seems unarguable; (the DG spin is to only to assume that She is something more than a legend, is "real" outside their minds.) What I then guessed was that those children were following some sort of inbuilt program that requires human beings to build a mythic structure to understand the Universe: and that the social fragmentation had led to a sort of "creolisation" of mythologies, producing something new and powerful. And I wondered if this was like the way small children can create new languages, and if - as with language creation - only children can do it. ---- **** ---- Now. "Nyarlathotep is the only GOO that processes language" - (true, I think, if you put he cutoff for real GOO a level above Cthulhu). "The only one that interacts with life". Hmmmmm ---- **** ---- How if "natural" existence is to (some of) the GOO as La Llorna is to us? Or perhaps more appropriately, as the more simple and harmless legends of the nursery are to us? This ties in with many creation myths, of course, wherin the gods are said to "dream" or "story-tell" the whole physical and conceptual universe. ---- **** ---- For example, this would make the physical universe the "dream-story" of Yog-Sothoth; what would be dreams on His level of being, we would see as the laws of Physics. On a lower level, the elaborations of biology would proceed from Shub-Nigguarth; and the perplexities of human culture (or the cultures of other intelligent species) from entities like Nyarlathotep. ---- **** ---- I'm not sure what this leads to, because we cannot "see" these things as the emanations of some sort of being; at our level, we only see the physical and logical laws that embody and enforce the process of their development. The Big Bang (not Azathoth); Particle Physcs & Inter-Domain interactions (not Yog-Sothoth); Evolution (not Shub-Niggurath); the roilings and flows of cultures (not Nyarlathotep). I don't see the GOO as merely being "symbolic" of these things, but as "embodying" them - both giving rise to them, and being abstracts of them in some way. ---- **** ---- To go back to La Llorna - suppose she is "real". What does that mean? "Real" could mean - she exists as a meme transmited between human minds - she exists in a shared human unconsciousness, the Dreamlands - she exists as a malignant spiritual entity, perhaps founded in another Domain But it seems to me that a form of "reality" could encompass at least the first two senses: that if you look at any "instance" of La Llorna, she's just a story, but in the realm of collective, shared, story, she emerges as a real and conscious being. Now, if somehow we can conceive of a form of reality that encompasses *all three* senses, without denying any of them, maybe we will have some idea of the being of the greater GOO. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:56 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Tetrachromats http://www.redherring.com/mag/issue86/mag-mutant-86.html Moderately interesting ..... some women seeing in four primary colors (question mark?). Nothing unearthly, though - just a fourth different type of cone cell in the eye . The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 4:51 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: language (in re Llorna 'n such stuff) Greetings. Nervy wrote.... >on a side note, perhaps you can use this to your benefit: I'm of a mind >that my typing (which I do almost unconsciously, I'm always ALWAYS typing, >whether it be a conversation or an e-mail - I often joke I speak e-mail - or >entering data or writing) is another language. It's practically instinctual >with me - I don't have to think of the placement of the letters, or the very >letters itself, or my fingers. it's instantaneous with thought. So one >night, while falling asleep, I thought to myself could this be considered >another 'language', one expressed differently than a 'spoken' language? >There's that whole thing about the alphabet and all that. My longhand >doesn't feel like this. Did I make any sense here? In other words, when I >type, it feels like I'm 'speaking' another way, like when I switch from >english to spanish and back. You make lots of sense. I do not type - in the sense, I do not follow a method, use only four fingers at best and most of the time I look at the keyboard, not at the screen. And yet, the difference is striking if compared with the thought-processes involved in writing with pen and paper. I always told tales - for entertainment of my friends, for instance, ever since I was ten years old or so. But I started writing stories only when I laid my hands on an old Olivetti Lettera 32 typewriter. Handwriting is too slow to catch the flow of the story - it's excellent for drafting outlines, for setting down ideas and taking notes, but when I have to develop the stuff, I need a keyboard. Which of course is a drawback - and a good reason to save and buy a laptop. But it's not just a matter of speed. It's also a matter of structure. Which reminds me one of the best books I read on creative writing - "Writing Down the Bones", by Natalie Goldberg (Shambhala publishing). The book covers writing as a form of Zen practice, and dedicates quite some thought at the choice of writing implement you use. Finding the right pen, paper format etc. is as important as finding inspiration. Keyboards are covered marginally, but the option (sitting with the keyboard in your lap, letting the flow of thought through) is open. And I can add a further layer to your observations, Nerva - because most of the times _I do_ switch from one language to another when writing, these days. Whatever merits or flaws my prose writing may have, I know I'd be unable to write the same stories in Italian that I did write in English - and vice-versa. I generally feel I write better prose in English, but that's just my impression. Eckhard a few days back commented on the difficulty one has normally translating one's own stuff from one language to another. It's boring as hell. Also, it does not feel right - the phrases are not the same, you loose something and add something that's different. To catch the same.... ok, the same "vibe", you must not translate the story, you have to rewrite it. So, yes, all in all, I think the instrument you use to set down words on paper (or electrons) is a component of language, or an auxiliary language, if not strictly a language in itself. And as it happens with different languages, concepts do not translate exactly from one to another. Which is all fine and well but is borderline off-topic. So ObDG - somatic elements of spells? Is the hand-gestures you have to perform while summoning a byakhee a way to shape mystical energy, a way to fold space-time, or just a component of the language in which the spell was created? Is there any difference between the three? Does language bend space-time or bind energy? All those "bogus spells" in cheap editions of certain tomes - are they bogus just because the language was changed? Is "Ia, Ia Shub Niggurath" the most mind-boggling insult possible without the right hand gestures? Think it over, guys! Davide Mana Torino, Italy The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 4:57 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Invisible fiend (was: Re: La Llorna / night-fears) Cheerrs! Steve wrote.... >I'd be interested in reading what your sources are. I know I've heard >this story before, with some of the serial numbers changed; Interesting. I'll have to check my bookshelf, but most of the details come from books on local history by Renzo Rossotti a journalist and student of local folklore and a collection of articles by Ito de Rolandis- the journalist that covered the case at the time. As I said, this is reported as factual from reliable (?) sources. And Morpheus asked for on-line resources - alas, none but my web page http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/zenith/134/turin.htm There's a few articles (badly needing a grammar revision!) on local mysteries, urban legends and stuff, plus historical background. Be seeing you. Davide Mana Torino, Italy The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nerva Vels [nerva@escape.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:05 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: language (in re Llorna 'n such stuff) Davide has a very good point there. Even in Star Wars, we find hand gestures that accompany the use the of the Force. Why? Being latin, using my hands is part of my language, a part of the expression. Perhaps, in order to use any of the spells, the gestures must be part of the sequence, the 'language' and without them, well, who knows WHAT can happen? We're not talking necessarily the spoken tongue; is the language necessary to summon or invoke not just spoken? Since we're talking about 'things' from other dimensions, then it stands to reason (does it?) that invocations, summonings, etc etc etc require another 'dimension' of communication, and for us, speaking and hand gestures and drawing of symbols, or what have you, are required to bridge the gap between how we understand the world and how the other side does? The 'original' language required things said in a certain way, including the symbols and the gestures and perhaps the sequence of sounds or vocal images in a certain method (so when something is translated, it could render the spell impotent, or if the hand gestures are absent, it runs askew, etc) in order to work. As well as celestial placement, physical placement, yada yada yada. Damn, must be annoying to be a sorcerer! I'll leave someone else to expand on this, as I think I have the idea, but I feel I'm not expressing it well; there's more to it than this... Nervy (hrm, could it be this sense of 'drowning' trying to understand this new concept a reason madness descends upon awareness in the Mythos world?) ----- Original Message ----- From: Davide Mana > So ObDG - somatic elements of spells? > Is the hand-gestures you have to perform while summoning a byakhee a way to > shape mystical energy, a way to fold space-time, or just a component of the > language in which the spell was created? > Is there any difference between the three? > Does language bend space-time or bind energy? > All those "bogus spells" in cheap editions of certain tomes - are they > bogus just because the language was changed? > Is "Ia, Ia Shub Niggurath" the most mind-boggling insult possible without > the right hand gestures? The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of warwick brown [warwick_brown@usa.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:50 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: [Re: DG: Walkabout] LizardRoi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated Tue, 5 Dec 2000 2:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Dirk R. Festus Festerling" writes: > Sorry about the mixed message. I put quotes around "unconscious" to >differentiate it from sleep. I didn't speed, I was in no danger of >slamming into anything. I'm sure that I used signals (because I always >do, without thinking about it) and I went from the 134 to the 5\10, then >moved over to the left hand lanes to transition to the 5 for the 710 >connection. > I wasn't tired, I was absorbed in thinking about something else with my >eyes wide open and my ears tuned to traffic\engine\tires. But I wasn't >*consciously* paying any attention. Or maybe my non-verbal right >hemisphere did the driving while my left hemisphere was juggling plot and >charterization. Probably your "lizard brain" (there is a proper name for it but this was the name we actually used in the neuro-biology courses) working as it should. If you go and look at a persons brain the central brain (lizard brain) does a whole heap of work on a semi concious (sorry about the spelling) level. You don't think about breathing, or walking as the lizard brain does the work. There is no left or right brain requirement the basal brain works as a simple distinct unit. Pilots, accountants, and cabbies use this all the time. It takes no effort and if a new situation, or dangerous situation arises the lizard brain has the unnerving abillity to successfully give the "correct" response if you are given sufficient exposure to the event required. usually you "wake up" _after_ the new event. Its like the brain knows that the panic of "wake up" would be more dangerous than the reaction. On the other hand its reactions are not perfect and you should train yourself to have a variety of options. Infact pilots in Qantas airlines are trained to use this and there are proper tests I know of to make sure that the lizard brain is not getting too tired. The lizard brain does not deal with slow change well. There are many cases of people just coasting off the road on long slow bends. > I get antsy when a character in a movie takes their eyes off of the road >to have a dramatic conversation with a passenger. Same here, but I know some people who actually do it. - Warwick Brown BSc (Hons) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Der UberDave [superdave@mailtexas.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:10 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Dreamlands, was "Re: DG: Stephen King" From: "The Man in Black" >This process is being >unknowingly exacerbated by Eibon the Black, who is hoping to shatter the >Dreamlands into a thousand thousand fragments before the Endtimes, creating >havens against the apocalypse. I have to admit that this idea was an inspiration for Lee Burroughs. The idea that he could escape the possessing GOO by shattering his own mind is an obvious miniaturization of this. I didn't realize that that was where it came from until I was already writing the chapter. By the way, MiB, how did you like your characterization in "Angel"? -- Dave Challenge from Beyond 2000 -- The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Julian Breen [jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:17 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Walkabout Philip_Ward@yestelevision.com writes > >Now, have you ever been in that state and found yourself in a >life-threatening situation? >Do you think you'd actually react if the car in front of you went into a >sideways skid and >you started catching up on them rapidly? > >That's the bit that worries me. Can the "muscle-memory" handle an >unexpected situation I found myself in exactly this situation two days ago. I was making a trip that, for once, I had actually set off on time for. Consequently, I wasn't in a rush and could take a leisurely drive. I slipped into auto pilot. I caught myself "unconsciously" braking when I realised that the distance between myself and the car in front was narrowing, and I ground to a halt without incident. However, afterwards I thought of what would have happened if I had been in my usual frantic mode. Although not in auto pilot mode (I never slip into that when I'm in a hurry) I would probably have been driving too close to the car in front and been unable to avoid hitting him when he suddenly braked. I resolved to always make sure that I'm early in future. -- Julian The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Nick Brownlow [stabernide@netscape.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:31 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Dreamlands, was Re: DG: Stephen King >I have to admit that this idea was an inspiration for Lee Burroughs. I don't know if this was one of Dave's inspirations or not, but CFB2K scribes further down the line could do worse than to check out Crazy Jane from Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol for Lee Burroughs ideas. I see Red Thomas as the 'Black Annis' of the bunch.... ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Der UberDave [superdave@mailtexas.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:29 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: La Llorna From: "Andy Robertson" >We grant some sort of reality to these entities, in the Dreamlands or in >some other, related, misty sub-realm. > >Then the "creation" of Bloody Mary becomes like the evolution *or the >intentional breeding* of a new species within some ecology of the noosphere. This really excited me, as it ties in so well with earlier ideas about Avatars and how they are born. Does Hastur (or Nyarlathotep) consciously "make" the King in Yellow to go plague artists? Too humanocentric. I think the avatars, even Nyarlathotep's, are spawned unconsciously, as a response to environmental cues. In many cases, these cues are our thoughts, or at least the way our thoughts modify the Vibe as it passes through our brains. It is not like we can summon up an avatar to our liking, though. The kids certainly didn't want Bloody Mary. And your average decadent artiste doesn't exactly want the King in Yellow to show up and razor his face off with the rags of his robes. It's not the thoughts themselves that do it, not the pictures in the kids' minds--it's the "flavor," a flavor which, because of differing "taste" receptors, can elicit something very different and unexpected. -- Dave Challenge from Beyond 2000 -- The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Der UberDave [superdave@mailtexas.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:44 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Dreamlands, was Re: DG: Stephen King From: Nick Brownlow >I don't know if this was one of Dave's inspirations or not, but CFB2K scribes >further down the line could do worse than to check out Crazy Jane from Grant >Morrison's run on Doom Patrol for Lee Burroughs ideas. Unfortunately not an inspiration--I have only recently heard of Mr Morrison's fabled Doom Patrol run and would very much like to acquire it, as I know virtually nothing about it. I've become a big fan of Morrison since Mark got me addicted to The Invisibles. Japan may be the land of manga, but it's darned hard to find comic books here... -- Dave Challenge from Beyond 2000 -- The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: sign language ----- Original Message ----- From: Nerva Vels > or invoke not just spoken? Since we're talking about 'things' from other > dimensions, then it stands to reason (does it?) that invocations, > summonings, etc etc etc require another 'dimension' of communication Taking "spells" as "communication with things from other dimensions", that sure makes sense. We can also throw in the "folk wisdom" idea. A lot of real-world traditional medicine, agricultural technique, and so on, works fine, but the actual effective bits are only about 20% of the ritual & stuff that has accreted over the aeons. So it would be cute if in (some) spells the gestures were *all* that mattered: if the words (which scientific investigators are sure to focus on, being human) were just psychological background! ---- **** ---- And if you think about it, that makes he plainest sort of sense. Surely an entity from another dimension looking mistily into this one would find limb movements easier to sense than those wierd low-frequency air-waves we use to communicate? And even if it could learn to handle sound waves, what would it do if it was looking into yet *other* dimensions? where the creatures communicate in *other* ways? Hell, sign language may be the *only* way for creatures from widely separate dimension/domains to communicate. I know we like to think of hand gestures "warping space" and so on; that's dramatic; but the explanation may be a lot simpler than we think! We are all deaf & dumb outside our normal environment! The Glove Cleaner (I know that maybe we don't want "The plainest sort of sense" in DG - but I envisage Mythos scientists trying to study magic - finding it impossible to understand how the spells work - endless theories - contradictions - guys driving themselves mad - and then someone realises !!!!!) The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of SpasticLemur@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:06 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Grist for the Mill OR Guns don't kill people- brains kill people A court in Council Bluffs, Iowa, will rule in early December on whether to admit "brain fingerprinting" evidence that might free Terry Harrington, who has been in prison for 22 years for a murder he says he did not commit. Iowa psychiatrist Lawrence Farwell developed the technique, which he says measures brain activity (or inactivity) following attempts to trigger memories; tests on Harrington showed him with no memory of the murder or the crime scene but with memories of attending a rock concert with friends on the same night. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/