From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 2:21 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses From: The One who cleans Gloves: >> What was the Fall? "The Hounds Of Tindalos" hints at something far more >> basic and ancient than "sin". I believe it has to do with Tillinghast Radiation and the alteration that the Mi-Go made to humanity to remove their psionic powers. The intelligences from beyond that hunted Crawford Tillinghast are probably the Hounds. This is why the hounds don't bother the Yithians and other time travellers, because the Great Race have no connection with the Tesseract Factories of Tindalos, whereas humans (and their warped perception of reality) are linked to the ETHOS that eventually creates Tindalos. It may be that altered humans cause some sort of Paradox effect when they observe Tindalos. This paradox could affect Tesseract construction or the Hounds themselves in an adverse fashion. It could also be that the Great Race avoids the Hounds by travelling forwards in time and avoiding their relative past. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [The 7th Chemical] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of John Petherick [jpetheri@cyberbeach.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 3:37 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: RE: DG: Re: Swastika with a round-about link to the Mythos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com [mailto:owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com]On > Behalf Of Kelly, Sean > Sent: March 12, 2001 3:33 PM > To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' > Subject: RE: DG: Re: Swastika > > > >This week's pointless Irish Factoid: > > Try some equally useless Stateside Trivia: > > There is a small town in the middle of the Adirondack Park in northern New > York called Swastika... A really creepy place even without > factoring in the > name. > Very pointless Northern Ontario factoid: I was IN Swastika this morning. It's a hamlet just outside Kirkland Lake, Ontario. Not creepy, but a typical Northern Ontario town after the mine closed - fewer houses than there used to be. Also covered in a lot of snow this morning. Apparently, the town was named for the good luck symbol because of a gold find. The standard story is that the (then) town of Swastika was asked to change its name during WW2, but declined because they had the name first. Looking for that, I came across this interesting site: http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/ which has a version of the story. Kirkland Lake happens to be the home town of Alan Thicke, late of "Growing Pains", who once slandered the town by describing it as a place where "virgin" was defined as a 16-year-old who'd had only one child. Other claims to fame: - producing more NHL players per capita than any other town in Canada - home of the Macassa and Lakeshore Mines, once operating at more than 8000' below surface (the deepest mines outside of South Africa) The main historical note of Kirkland Lake is that it is where Sir Harry Oakes made his fortune. Sir Oakes was originally from near Bar Harbor, Maine (and who vacations there?) from stolid yankee stock. He was apparently short and not particularly handsome. Here's a biography that includes a flattering portrait - hmm, any traces of DO? http://www.halloffame.mining.ca/english/bios/oakes.html Oakes dropped out of Syracuse, and kicked around the world in places like Alaska and the Belgian Congo (hmm ... smelling something cooking?) prospecting for gold. One version of his "gold strike" portrays it as near claim-jumping, and features a woman who was "strikingly ugly, smelly and was followed everywhere by snarling dogs". (man sells soul for material wealth ...) Ultimately, Oakes struck it rich and became a Canadian to avoid US income taxes. After backing the wrong politicians, he moved to the Bahamas as a tax haven, and bought a baronetcy to become a "Sir". His murder features official cover-up by the then-Governor of the Bahamas, the Duke of Windsor, and mysterious men who landed by boat at night. Maybe a PISCES or Department P operation? This site has a non-idealized version of the story. http://www.sangerville.lib.me.us/oakes.html The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 4:50 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:20:35 -1000 "The Man in Black" wrote: > I believe it has to do with Tillinghast Radiation and the > alteration > that the Mi-Go made to humanity to remove their psionic > powers. When did this happen and why? It seems a little incongrous for them to be studying something unique that they don't understand in our brains while simultaneously fiddling around with the structure. Did they snip the "psionic gland" or something? Eliminating psionics also seems to be a poor approach to studying something that might depend on psionics to work. They are looking for how a human mind gets from A to D without going through steps B and C. I don't think they are looking for better algorithms. All in all, if our psionic powers have been crippled by an Outside force, the Mi-go don't look like the best candidates. Of course, you can always say that psionics are not part of what the Mi-go are looking for because they crippled the psionics function and we are still intuitive but less likely to mess with the Mi-go and we can have a merry time playing the Bill and Ted causality game. Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 6:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: The Ides of March What's with all the toasting and eulogizing? You act like he's dead or something. He's an Author. He's at the big convention to determine the best tactics against the Beast. He's over there under the tree with Robert E. Howard and Arthur Machen. Lewis Carroll was just over there, but I think he's over with J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis now. Cool convention incidentally. Choice shwag. Mark McFadden Off to give my lecture "Subtext and sub-reference: two tools for pissing off readers everywhere" The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David A. Farnell [1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 6:18 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses From: "The Lizard King" > "The Man in Black" wrote: > > I believe it has to do with Tillinghast Radiation and the > > alteration > > that the Mi-Go made to humanity to remove their psionic > > powers. > > When did this happen and why? It seems a little incongrous > for them to be studying something unique that they don't > understand in our brains while simultaneously fiddling > around with the structure. Did they snip the "psionic gland" > or something? I'm not quite sure where I read it first, but it seems that this is at least what the Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign claims--that the K'n-Yanni are the original humans, and we non-psychic types are the result of Mi-Go tampering (probably genetic). This may be purely from Chaosium adventures such as A Resection of Time--I can't recall a story that it comes from. Still, who's to say that fiction (other than HPL's and, perhaps, that of those who knew him) is any more canonical than game supplements and adventures? Still, if anyone does know of such a story, please let us know its title and author. > Eliminating psionics also seems to be a poor approach to > studying something that might depend on psionics to work. Yes, but that assumes that the Mi-Go researchers are all working together in lockstep. I figure there's factions, and they don't tell each other what they're up to. So 50,000 years ago (or whatevah) one group of scientists decides to see what happens when you remove the psi powers from these pesky humans..."Hmm, well, that didn't seem all that interesting. Turn them loose in the wilderness and let's go back to killing the ones with psi powers who keep messing up our mining operations." So the humans without psi can't keep warm, provide shelter, kill animals, find water, etc with psi powers. They have to *think* and develop new ways to do things. Fast forward 50,000 years of technological monkeyshines and there's six billion of the vicious little vermin. And the K'n-Yanni have had to retreat underground. The research into human intuitiveness could be more recent. Before we started having such rapid leaps in inventiveness, the Mi-Go were probably pretty uninterested in that aspect of us. And sure, they'd love to have some of the psi-capable species available for research, but those guys are hard to find these days. So they make do with us altered versions--and we may very well have more inventiveness than the K'n-Yanni anyway, due to necessity being the mother of...that's right, invention. The K'n-Yanni don't need to invent or flex their intuitivity muscle--that's why they're so decadent. They'd never have a Holmes, not when they can read the minds of criminals and locate lost children through clairvoyance. And no matter how powerful they are psychically, they'll never rule us. Not for long, anyway. We'd be too much to handle. They'd have to kill us all. Lafcadio Hearn wrote of silkworms, how they are taken care of, their every need provided for, their whole existence pampered until their death. He said that the life of a silkworm is what most humans dream of, a life with no cares, no worries, no struggle. And, he said, if we got our wish, then we'd become just like silkworms--helpless, mindless blobs, in a permanent infantile state. It was why he preferred Buddhism's idea of reincarnation to Christianity's heaven--the endless struggle was more interesting. The K'n-Yannis are the rich and powerful Harkonnen. We are the sufferning Fremen, the Sardukar. We have had our godlike powers stripped away, we have been driven from Eden, and that is what makes us strong. Dave CfB2K: www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/Robin.htm The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of EdDrWho@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 7:50 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses/Mi-Go thinkin' In a message dated 3/14/01 8:27:23 PM Central Standard Time, 1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp writes: > Yes, but that assumes that the Mi-Go researchers are all working together in > lockstep. I figure there's factions, and they don't tell each other what > But all of their brains function exactly alike. Point A to Point B to Point C. No leaping, no shoving, no erratic geniuses; they aren't wired to do it. I think that's what's so fascinating about us to them; the ability to disagree. Feel free to disagree with me on that, natch. on behalf of Edward Lipsett [translation@intercomltd.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 7:54 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses/Mi-Go thinkin' True, but suppose that different groups of Mi-Go were exposed to different sets of knowledge about human beings, or were in different environments. It would be possible for them to arrive at different conclusions because they would be making decisions based on different facts. I sort of doubt that might apply here, but a truly creative keeper might be able to make a story out of it... EdDrWho@aol.com wrote: >> Yes, but that assumes that the Mi-Go researchers are all working >> together in >> lockstep. I figure there's factions, and they don't tell each other >> what >> they're up to. > > But all of their brains function exactly alike. Point A to Point B to > Point > C. No leaping, no shoving, no erratic geniuses; they aren't wired to > do it. I > think that's what's so fascinating about us to them; the ability to > disagree. ===== Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass. - Anton Chekov ===== Edward Lipsett Intercom, Ltd. Fukuoka, Japan translation@intercomltd.com http://www.intercomltd.com Fax: +81-92-712-9220 The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of EdDrWho@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:03 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses/Mi-Go think... In a message dated 3/14/01 9:59:26 PM Central Standard Time, translation@intercomltd.com writes: > > > > > > True, but suppose that different groups of Mi-Go were exposed to > different sets of knowledge about human beings, or were in different > environments. It would be possible for them to arrive at different > conclusions because they would be making decisions based on different > I suppose so, but wouldn't they compare notes? Exchange data? Unless they served different gods, in which case a Mi-Go turf war could really shake up a stir as the boys from Cell Whathaveyou get played for suckers, along with MAJESTIC by not one, but TWO sets of Greys and Mi-Gos... on behalf of David A. Farnell [1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:42 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Fun Guys revisited (was Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations...) I really too busy to even be reading my email, but what the heck... From: EdDrWho@aol.com >>>I suppose so, but wouldn't they compare notes? Exchange data? Unless they served different gods, in which case a Mi-Go turf war could really shake up a stir as the boys from Cell Whathaveyou get played for suckers, along with MAJESTIC by not one, but TWO sets of Greys and Mi-Gos... <<< That would be fun, and I'm sure the Ice Cave has the MiB's theories about Mi-Go factions somewhere in there. But even without that, I don't see the whole race marching in lockstep. Even if their thought processes are all identical, that doesn't mean they'll make the same decisions based on the same info. There's a lot of other factors, including environment, as Ed said--and a different environment can be as simple as being in another room. And there's lots of experiments to do, which requires breaking up into various research groups, which probably don't have the time or memory-capacity to keep up 100% with what the others are doing. Conflicts arise when two groups need the same resources/whatever and both believe that their project is the most important. They also freely modify their bodies, including their brains, essentially turning themselves into a multitude of species. This too will affect how they decide things. And then there's a possible split between Mi-Go whose job it is to monitor Earth and environs, and Mi-Go whose job it is to work on Yuggoth. And the even bigger split between the Mi-Go here and the trans-solar Mi-Go, who could be shockingly different, for all we know. They've had eons to "evolve" (tinker with themselves) along different paths. I gave away my Machinations of the Mi-Go in anticipation of buying the 2nd edition, so I can't check, but I had the impression that the Fungi don't exactly serve any gods, anyway. They do engage in certain rituals for reproductive purposes and the like, which requires "worship" of Shubby and Nyarlathotep and others, but I'd guess they don't really worship her in the sense that we think of it. She's just a tool they need, a helper for the hypergeometric physics formulae which are a part of their life cycle. They're not really religious in a sense we'd understand. So if we have a factional split among the Mi-Go, rather than it being religious in nature, I would make it intellectual: conflicting projects. Horrific wars costing billions of lives in hundreds of star system--all over an academic argument about whose project should receive backing. The Mi-Go here in our system could be fighting that war against outer Mi-Go who think this whole project with Earth should be shut down before Cthulhu wakes up. The outer Mi-Go see Earth as a waste of time and resources, while the Yuggothian Mi-Go want to see the experiment run its course. Dave The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Edward Lipsett [translation@intercomltd.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:50 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Fun Guys revisited (was Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations...) I can loan you it to you if you like... Also, I have a book on the emergence of imperialism/militarism in Japan (especially Meiji) which I think you might find interesting... "David A. Farnell" wrote: > I gave away my Machinations of the Mi-Go in anticipation of buying the 2nd ===== Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass. - Anton Chekov ===== Edward Lipsett Intercom, Ltd. Fukuoka, Japan translation@intercomltd.com http://www.intercomltd.com Fax: +81-92-712-9220 The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Edward Lipsett [translation@intercomltd.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 9:56 PM To: Delta Green Subject: DG: Intelligence and counter-intelligence Very nice list of related resources - should keep people turning over rocks for weeks: http://www.kimsoft.com/kim-spy.htm#1d ===== Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass. - Anton Chekov ===== Edward Lipsett Intercom, Ltd. Fukuoka, Japan translation@intercomltd.com http://www.intercomltd.com Fax: +81-92-712-9220 The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mark McFadden [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 10:26 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses/Mi-Go thinkin' Before speculating about Mi-go thinking, I'd like to return to human thinking for a bit. When we say the Mi-go or others eliminated the psionic abilities of those pesky humans, what are we saying they did? That they made some vital brain part atrophy? Somewhere, probably on the right side, some withered bit of gray matter that used to be the psionic complex sleeps and sporadically sends bits of deja vu and hunches. But that's so obvious, it's a first draft. What if instead of crippling something, they made it controllable by enhancing something else? Enter the left brain and all the goodies of technology and tool use and language and violence. And since they come from a more fundamental brain structure, you still have sex, fight or flight and territoriality to play with. Smoking gun? Since most men live almost exclusively on the left side, it becomes apparant that most societies have been structured to reward what the left side values. You can explain this with Darwinian musings or you can look for something to plunder for a roleplaying game. Try to support yourself or get through a day without language. I can't imagine (yet) a technological society without language, but that might be either left brain propaganda or limitations. This theory even has some evidence going for it, if only circumstantial. Anyone who has meditated or practiced martial arts knows that to do the neat human tricks you don't use words and "empty your mind". But scans show that the mind doesn't 'empty', it just scoots over to the wordless right side. Take the language static away and the right half can function. But the best thing of all will be listening to the left halves of everyone's brain justifying their behavior, "it was for the children" and doing a variation on the "Few Good Men" speech. "You want me to make that technology, you *need* me to make that technology", denigrating the right half as some mute hippy that should be more grateful for it's pampered life, thanks to Left Brain Technology, now, more than ever. Well guess what people, ol' Righty is a damn fine mechanic and engineer. Think of Nicola Tesla before writing out his patents. Ever heard of 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?' Brother Lefty plagiarizes like a signifyin' monkey. Y'see, although most men live almost exclusively on the left, some rare individuals don't. They muse and hum along in a timeless, wordless place like a shaman and bring back wisdom. Read the biographies of Nobel laureates, and read them describing their thoughts at the point of a breakthrough. The answer came to them, often visually or symbolically. This is what the Greeks called being possessed by genius. The right side isn't some layabout artist living on the left side's welfare and being irrational, the right side is a craftsman. "To understand Zen, observe a craftsman at his trade." A craftsman at his trade, working with his hands, is hovering on the edge of an Alpha state, and much of his brain function is happening on the right side. The left side only becomes active when language or math is needed. This is also true of dancers and martial artists and snipers. Now let's pretend we're all playing a roleplaying game here and think about this little war going on between left and right. If you start seeing the constant emphasis on left brain strengths in the assumptions of civilization. Now, no dissing the left side's *talents*, but it's got issues, you know? The left side can lie, and often does, even to itself. The right side is incapable of lying or deception. The left side is violent, the right side isn't. The left side doesn't play well with others and is frequently disruptive. The left side won't shut the fuck up and let the right side *think* fer chrissake. Any way you slice it, the left side is the Before side in the ad. "Oh yeah? Well, you try making a communications satellite without my help smartass!" Why would I need one if I was telepathic? Dumbass. Why would I need you if I could get animals to die in a convenient location by the power of my mind? Or better, because the plants all grow the way I like them to. Why would I need miltary technology to protect me from other humans if we're all pacifists by nature? What if instead of being distracted by our irrational right brain thoughts and stumbling into a mastodon stampede, what if life really really sucked for a long time with all the easy assumptions of human life made impossible by babbling voices in our heads and communication *reduced* to controlled belches and hand gestures, carefully taught to infants born cripples, without the thoughts of the tribe to guide them through birth and infancy. No wonder we became violent, we were scared and scarred and only thinking with half of our resources, and if you think communicating through grunts, hoots and hand waving is hard with people you *know*, try it with another tribe. They'll probably be carrying those sticks and rocks we all have to carry now. I used to know what the gods wanted, they'd show me. But now only Skulking Weasel sees the gods, and he says that the gods want him to stay back at camp and talk to the gods some more while we all go hunting. Also, the gods think he should get bigger portions. Well, we can no longer see his thoughts, but surely no one would be so vile as to, uh, not speak truth? about the gods. Anyway, that's my take on it. Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Netjer-en-bau [netjerenbau@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 10:58 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: T-Shirt Project ----- Original Message ----- From: > >And there's some discussion as to whether Cambodia or Vietnam should >be cancelled. Somebody go and find us a reference from the book, >and settle the argument, eh! > It's Cambodia in 1969. There is some trouble in Vietnam in '68 as well but that's not the main one. See p.39 of DG book. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steven Cook [psi_omega@lineone.net] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:12 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: DG Ideas for Campaign/Adventures and a question In January I started my DG campaign (misadventures of Cell K) and they have worked thru the adventures in the DG book and despite my 8 players considerable doubts over the game it has taken off like wildfire. So now I'm converting CoC 1990 adventures over to DG and adding conspiratorial threads thru them. I was wondering if anyone has had any success converting large campaign scenario's such as 'Walker in the Wastes' or even 'Beyond the Mountains of Madness'. Also several of my gamer's (three to be precise) are into WW2 Miniature battles and generally pretty knowledgeable about stuff from the WW2, so is Operation Eichloss being made into an adventure by Pagan or is it just a plot idea for Keepers to make into a full adv/campaign? as this would really grab their attention as do any adventures involving the Karotechia. Steven J. Cook on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:54 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Farnell" <1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp> To: > From: "The Lizard King" > > "The Man in Black" wrote: > > > I believe it has to do with Tillinghast Radiation and the > > When did this happen and why? It seems a little incongrous > > for them to be studying something unique that they don't > > understand in our brains > The K'n-Yannis are the rich and powerful Harkonnen. We are the sufferning > Fremen, the Sardukar. We have had our godlike powers stripped away, we have > been driven from Eden, and that is what makes us strong. My take on this I have posted before: but to elaborate slightly: I believe that human beings are "feral" or escaped servitor race, perhaps interbred with naturally evolved hominids, or perhaps originally bred from them. I think Dave's take on the K'n-Yannis as a "spoiled domesticate" clade is accurate, but the full complexity of the relationship between "true humans" (if such exist) and the various near-human hominids (from the DO to Australitopithecus) is too complex to unweave with just the shreds of legend we have. Paleontology shows us that there were up to twenty near-human subspecies of hominid. We assume that all of these were feral, like us, and that they were all exterminated by us. In fact it seems likely to me that some of them were bred by Mythos entities as useful servitor races, some were the results of pure wild evolution, and some, like us, were accidental cross-breeds - (I'd place us as accidental cross-breeds between the "pure" DO and wild shore-living aquatic apes: but that is speculation) --- *** --- Think of us as being like a GM species of maize with an interesting chlorophill hack that has gone wild, interbred with the weeds, and taken over the landscape. What tales would such GM maize have to tell about its ancestry, if it could speak? --- *** --- It's always hard to remember the *sheer amount of time* involved here. DO, K'n-Yannis, Neanderthals, Sand Dwellers, Ghouls, Java Man . . . . I suspect the real history of human evolution and its interaction with the Mythos is yet ten times as complex as this. --- *** --- As for "why the Mi-Go study us" - my suggestion is that the Mi-Go observe that we are moving towards a Vingean Singularity from which, in the course of nature, we would emerge as some sort of GOO. That is what they are studying. But not with envy! The thing that is driving us towards this is something they do not have AND DO NOT WANT - they have successfully avoided GOO-hood for billions of years. But they still wish to *study* an emergent GOO. Calling this thing-that-is-driving-us "intuition" hits the spot in the sense that it is not logic. But it is far more than what is usually meant by Intuition. --- *** --- This phenomenon, the accidental creation of a new GOO, is a by-product of the manufacture of rubbish/servitor species on an obscure planet. It wasn't supposed to happen! An object lesson in the dangers of careless genetic engineering! --- **** --- In fact, the nascent GOO will be snuffed out / coopted by older and stronger Players - and this, too, the Mi-Go will observe. Fearfully. Enviously. And with a sense of religious affirmation, at witnessing, again, the fate they skillfully escaped so many aeons ago. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of R L [sushi_with_extra_rice@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:36 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: DG Ideas for Campaign/Adventures and a question >In January I started my DG campaign (misadventures of Cell K) and they have >worked thru the adventures in the DG book and despite my 8 players >considerable doubts over the game it has taken off like wildfire. Wow! What's it like running such a large group as 8!?! >So now I'm converting CoC 1990 adventures over to DG and adding >conspiratorial threads thru them. I was wondering if anyone has had any >success converting large campaign scenario's such as 'Walker in the Wastes' >or even 'Beyond the Mountains of Madness'. If and when I use premade adventures (which I almost never do) I only use the essence and plothooks. I usually remake (or disregard) all the NPC's and normally changes the details of the plot as well to suit my group and style of GM'ing. Don't know if this helps though. is Operation Eichloss being made into an adventure by Pagan or Don't know. If anyone has any info on this, I'd also like to know. this would really grab their attention as do any adventures involving the Karotechia. Soon starting my WW2 SOE based plot of about 40 hours of gameplay. Karotechia plays a teeny weeny part in the adventure... *big grin* Ron If people lack knowledge and desire Then they can not act; If no action is taken Harmony remains. -Tao Te Ching _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Jussi Marttila [velcrokf@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 3:05 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: The Ides of March >From: "David A. Farnell" <1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp> > > > Just a reminder to raise your can of beer on high, for on 15 March 1937 >our > > weird, lovable, bigoted, visionary, rationalist Gentleman of Providence, > > Uncle Theobaldis, HPL, did die in agony and poverty. If there is a > > Dreamlands, surely he is one of its Kings. And if there is a heaven, >he's > > probably still surprised. So, today is the day. Tonight I'll raise a glass of beautiful Spanish red wine to the honor of the Old Man. He deserves to be remembered. Jussi _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David A. Farnell [1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 3:15 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: DG Ideas for Campaign/Adventures and a question From: Steven Cook >>>So now I'm converting CoC 1990 adventures over to DG and adding conspiratorial threads thru them. I was wondering if anyone has had any success converting large campaign scenario's such as 'Walker in the Wastes' or even 'Beyond the Mountains of Madness'.<<< I can't remember much discussion of converting WitW, but I know we've talked about BtMoM. I couldn't find it with a quick glance-through at the Ice Cave...perhaps it never developed into a full-fledged thread. Anyway, I think more than one person talked of running BtMoM first "as is," either as a regular 1930s CoC adventure, or modified slightly to include Delta Green in the 1930s. Then, run a sequel set in the modern day, as standard DG. (I think somebody even mentioned the idea of running both simultaneously, flipping back and forth between periods--that would be great, but would require some fine skill to pull off.) There's plenty of stuff on converting standard CoC scenarios available: Jacob Busby's notes on converting many scenarios to Delta Green (mostly short notes on a *lot* of scenarios): http://www.delta-green.com/opint/raredocs/scenguid.html The MiB's more detailed conversion of "The Killer Out of Space": http://www.delta-green.com/opint/raredocs/rd_kill.html Don Juneau's conversion of Stephen King's "The Mist" (OK, it's a short-story conversion, not a scenario conversion, but what the heck): http://www.delta-green.com/opint/raredocs/mist.html Notes at the Ice Cave on "At Your Door" and "The Stars Are Right!": http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/dgadapt.htm http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/dgaydad.htm (there's probably more, spread out through other threads) >>>Also several of my gamer's (three to be precise) are into WW2 Miniature battles and generally pretty knowledgeable about stuff from the WW2, so is Operation Eichloss being made into an adventure by Pagan or is it just a plot idea for Keepers to make into a full adv/campaign? as this would really grab their attention as do any adventures involving the Karotechia.<<< Not sure of Pagan's plans for WW2, but go here: http://www.mindspring.com/~furrylogic/deltagreen/ (If you get really interested in DG in WW2, you could also join the DGWW2 discussion list on Yahoo Groups.) Cthulhu Live: Shades of Gray has a couple of around-WW2-era scenarios in it. It's an excellent supplement. (Which reminds me: Hey, Mac! Where can we order the new Cthulhu Live: Delta Green?? I want mine yesterday!) Hope that helps. Dave CfB2K: www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/Robin.htm PS: A periodic reminder to all--As per DGML policy in the welcome message, please use Plaintext format for messages to the list. If you're using Outlook Express, go Tools>Options, select the "Send" tab, and under "Mail Sending Format" choose "Plain Text." This will ensure that your message is not full of code garbage that makes it hard to read on many members' computers, and it will also be "slimmer," using less bandwidth and storage space. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David A. Farnell [1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 3:32 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: The Ides of March From: "Jussi Marttila" > So, today is the day. Tonight I'll raise a glass of beautiful Spanish red > wine to the honor of the Old Man. He deserves to be remembered. Certainly a more refined choice than a beer, but I was making an obscure reference to an obscure Blue Oyster Cult song....OTOH, as Grandpa was a teetotaller, perhaps we should be raising glasses of lemonade or iced tea. By the way, I celebrated by reading my recently-arrived copy of the original 1935 "Challenge from Beyond" (Necronomicon Press, $4.50, ISBN 0-940884-27-5, available through the Pagan Publishing online catalog). I don't want to sound too boastful, but I think we stand a chance of bettering the original! Depends on how our ending comes along, but the original Challenge was a fairly pedestrian, unremarkable story, mainly interesting for the clashing styles of the writers. (The transition when Robert E. "Two-Gun" Howard takes over from HPL is a lot of fun.) (I'm referring to the "weird" Moore/Merritt/Lovecraft/Howard/Long "Challenge"--there was also a "science-fiction" Weinbaum/Wandrei/Smith/Vincent/Leinster "Challenge" which is appallingly bad, though it's good for a laugh. They're both printed in the same booklet.) Dave CfB2K: www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/Robin.htm The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Steven Kaye [box_nine@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 4:51 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Interpersonal relations among affronts to the senses At 11:18 AM +0900 3/15/01, David A. Farnell wrote: >I'm not quite sure where I read it first, but it seems that this is at least >what the Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign claims--that the K'n-Yanni are the >original humans, and we non-psychic types are the result of Mi-Go tampering >(probably genetic). This may be purely from Chaosium adventures such as A >Resection of Time--I can't recall a story that it comes from. Still, who's >to say that fiction (other than HPL's and, perhaps, that of those who knew >him) is any more canonical than game supplements and adventures? Still, if >anyone does know of such a story, please let us know its title and author. "The Mound" has the K'n-yan natives claim that they were the original people who had settled the earth, and references to "evolutionary differences" between them and surface dwellers suggest they stem from the same original stock. The sinking of their outer world colonies was blamed on "space devils," who are described as hostile to men and men's gods. "The Whisperer in Darkness" talks about a group which seeks to hurt the Mi-Go and is associated with the Yellow Sign. Herber took these elements, boiled them together, and came up with the speculation in KEEPER'S COMPENDIUM about the Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign. The psionic tampering bit came from KEEPER'S, IIRC, and was picked up on in an adventure in STRANGE AEONS. Here endeth the lesson. Steven The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 5:52 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: The Ides of March Greetings. Dave plugged the Pagan Online Catalog and wrote >By the way, I celebrated by reading my recently-arrived copy of the original >1935 "Challenge from Beyond" (Necronomicon Press, $4.50, ISBN 0-940884-27-5, >available through the Pagan Publishing online catalog). I don't want to >sound too boastful, but I think we stand a chance of bettering the original! Told You So. >Depends on how our ending comes along, Hey! >but the original Challenge was a >fairly pedestrian, unremarkable story, mainly interesting for the clashing >styles of the writers. (The transition when Robert E. "Two-Gun" Howard takes >over from HPL is a lot of fun.) Even funnier is the idea that Merrit threw a tantrum because Belknap Long was slated to be the first in line, caused Long to be kicked out (he agreed to re-join thanks to HPL's personal intervention), and then wrote one of the most abysmal examples of hackwork in the field. The ego of some.... (sigh) Be seeing you. Davide mana Torino, Italy The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of David Rodemaker [dar@horusinc.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 6:13 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Large Gaming Groups > >In January I started my DG campaign (misadventures of Cell K) > and they have > >worked thru the adventures in the DG book and despite my 8 players > >considerable doubts over the game it has taken off like wildfire. > > Wow! What's it like running such a large group as 8!?! Hmmmm. Let me jump in for a moment, since I've done it before (and with as many as 10 players for a couple of campaigns) It depends upon two things, the game you're running and the people involved. If all is good it is a really fun time (esp. for games like CoC/DG where player paranoia runs at a high) for other games it is less successful (some fantasy games). I am also talking about campaigns and not convention events which are great but even more work since the players aren't used to working with one another. Generally it involves a great deal of work on the one hand (more characters means they need more challenge's) and less on the other (that many players can spend an impressive amount of time role-playing among themselves with little help from the GM). One of the things that may have made a difference in my experience was the presence of 3 women in the group with anywhere from the 5 to 7 men in the group. It certainly added another dynamic to the group. The experiment that I am involved with at the moment is co-GM'ing, which I haven't tried since High School (back before there was dirt...) and that is working great! Heartily recommend it to anyone. David The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 6:30 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups In a message dated 3/15/01 8:22:49 AM Central Standard Time, dar@horusinc.com writes: > The experiment that I am involved with at the moment is co-GM'ing, which I > haven't tried since High School (back before there was dirt...) and that is > working great! Heartily recommend it to anyone. > > David > > Cor! Weren't you half-lucky! You had dirt! Why back in my day if we wanted dirt we had to bang rocks with other rocks til we got a pile of dirt out of it. Damned refreshing after all that pounding to take a good dirt bath! Made it almost worthwhile. . . . . On a more serious note, large groups work pretty well. What makes them work better is a wide range of age, experience and a division of gender. i once ran for over a year a group containing women, men, kids as young as 13 and players older than myself I am 53 now) Diversity works great, the players get into their relationships magnificiently and take a lot of load off the GM. on behalf of R L [sushi_with_extra_rice@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 6:59 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups >On a more serious note, large groups work pretty well. What makes them work >better is a wide range of age, experience and a division of gender. i once >ran for over a year a group containing women, men, kids as young as 13 and >players older than myself I am 53 now) Diversity works great, the players >get >into their relationships magnificiently and take a lot of load off the GM. My experience is the opposite. Large groups are hard to get into mood, and there is always a lot of "noise". Could be my bad luck with roleplayers, but I normaly limit my campaigns to 3-5. That way I can really get into their characters and work the mood. Just my two cents. I DO have an ide for a scenario run by two GM's and two groups simultaniously at the same location or city. That way they could play without knowing about eachother and experience the effects of each others groups. Would take a bit of coordination, but what the heck. I think it's do-able. Ron If people lack knowledge and desire Then they can not act; If no action is taken Harmony remains. -Tao Te Ching _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Popeyesays@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:11 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups In a message dated 3/15/01 9:03:42 AM Central Standard Time, sushi_with_extra_rice@hotmail.com writes: > I DO have an ide for a scenario run by two GM's and two groups > simultaniously at the same location or city. That way they could play > without knowing about eachother and experience the effects of each others > groups. Would take a bit of coordination, but what the heck. I think it's > do-able. > > Ron > > Try running it by e-mail. That way you have a record of everyone's posts and can give stuff consideration before you incorporate player actions into the scenarios. on behalf of box_nine@ix.netcom.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:29 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups Ron wrote: >My experience is the opposite. Large groups are hard to get into >mood, and >there is always a lot of "noise". Could be my bad luck with >roleplayers, but >I normaly limit my campaigns to 3-5. That way I can really get into >their >characters and work the mood. Normally I go for 4-5 myself. 8 is doable (most of my experience with larger groups is at conventions) - the main issue is making sure everybody gets enough time to roleplay. This can work to the Keeper's advantage - should have seen the look on one group's faces when a NPC was telling the second group that the professor the first group was meeting with was a Mi-Go plant. Talk about dramatic tension. You can limit out-of-game noise just by saying something like "OK, back to the game. What are you doing?" Variants are "You have five seconds: 5, 4, 3, 2..." but that's not really treating your players as adults. Perhaps I just have had unusually docile players. Or my K'n-yanni mind control powers are kicking in. Steven The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of logan_horsford@agilent.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:36 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: RE: GM'ing Large Groups (was Ideas for Campaign/Adventures and a question) Ron said: Wow! What's it like running such a large group as 8!?! >>>>The most people I have GM'ed at one time was 20. What a nightmare. The way we had it was they were divided (by the players) into 3 groups- the 'table group', the 'floor group' and the 'living room group'. The players would promote and demote other players (I didn't take any part of that). The 'table group' was limited by number of seats and the floor group was limited by amount of area. In a CoC campaign, this would not work very well (no horror when you have an appartment full of people) but for the type of campaign I was running at the time (stategy, combat heavy) it worked out. Unfortunately, it was a fantasy game using the RoleMaster system. I would call off peoples turns in the combat round and they would (if in the LR) come in from the living room, take their turn and return. Needless to say, combats were slow. The 'table group' did most of the RP'ing. That was about 6 people. The floor group did less and the living room group was just there because they liked the combat. This was back in the 80's when I was in the Army. My opinion on groups now is a group of 6ish seems ideal. A good group consists of a leader, a roleplayer, a troublemaker/screw up, a problem solver, etc. The screwup is good to keep the group in trouble. IMO, Logan The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of minstrel@40ad.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:52 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups > Normally I go for 4-5 myself. 8 is doable (most of my experience with > larger groups is at conventions) - the main issue is making sure > everybody gets enough time to roleplay. This can work to the Keeper's > advantage - should have seen the look on one group's faces when a NPC > was telling the second group that the professor the first group was > meeting with was a Mi-Go plant. Talk about dramatic tension. I've run some long term games with ~8-10 players. Its workability mattered a LOT on the players and I made sure they knew that. The ones that occasionally caused problems were squeezed by the other players (not told about cool artifacts or let in on important info that I'd let fall when they were talking about last week's ball game) and they eventually caught on that in order to stay alive, they had to pay attention. > You can limit out-of-game noise just by saying something like > "OK, back to the game. What are you doing?" Variants are "You > have five seconds: 5, 4, 3, 2..." but that's not really treating > your players as adults. Perhaps I just have had unusually docile > players. Or my K'n-yanni mind control powers are kicking in. The countdown is one of my favorite, rare occurance ploys to throw the players into a sense of panic. The hard part, though, is keeping track of what their last statements of intent were before the time runs out. That way you can simulate someone taking a step in one direction, then stopping and whirling and going back for their gun they left lying on the bedstand, THEN remembering to put on pants before running out into the parking lot... and then BOOM. Whatever happens (bomb explosion, agency raid, jehova's witnesses knocking on an unlatched door, or unresolved tension dis-sollution...) You just have to remember to not do it too often, or they'll get complacent... and USUALLY do it when it REALLY matters, though sometimes doing it to provide a sense of impending doom (via psychic pressure from a passing entity, or to further an idea sprouted from inter-player role playing...) helps keep them on edge. Large groups = lots of player interaction amongst themselves, and has been said before, some of the BEST plot ideas come from the players themselves. The GM has to remain focused and ready to throw distractions at players to keep them busy while you have to interact with a subset of the team. "Ok, its your turn to come up with a plan X, I'll be back to you momentarily to catch up." or "How do you think you'd be able to pull THAT off? Think about it for a second..." And spread the player importance to the missions/scenarios around so that no one feels left out or put upon or self concious... joe The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Mr. Zero [mrzero@ego-subversion.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 8:37 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups One of my favourite games to play in at the moment is a 10 person game, for all the reasons that people have mentioned, increased player interaction and the wierd strange plots that we as players come up with. My personal limit is 5 people though...I can't manage any more than that. sean [who has a big DG game inthe works] -- mrzero@ego-subversion.com ICQ: 44564776 http://www.ego-subversion.com/ http://www.ego-subversion.com/~mrzero See you Space Cowboy... The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of R L [sushi_with_extra_rice@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 9:42 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups > > I DO have an ide for a scenario run by two GM's and two groups > > simultaniously at the same location or city. >Try running it by e-mail. That way you have a record of everyone's posts >and >can give stuff consideration before you incorporate player actions into the >scenarios. I'm not a great fan of pbem games. Probably because I've never been in one that was any cool. Ron If people lack knowledge and desire Then they can not act; If no action is taken Harmony remains. -Tao Te Ching _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of R L [sushi_with_extra_rice@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 9:46 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups >Normally I go for 4-5 myself. 8 is doable ( The largest group I've ever GM'ed consisted of 13 people, excluding me. Kinda chaotic... >You can limit out-of-game noise just by saying something like "OK, back to >the game. What are you doing?" Variants are "You have five seconds: 5, 4, >3, 2..." but that's not really treating your players as adults. Those kind of remarks tend to break up the mood IMO. I'd rather have fewer players that are fully concentrated. Ron If people lack knowledge and desire Then they can not act; If no action is taken Harmony remains. -Tao Te Ching _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Alexandre [arborea@tiscalinet.be] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 10:04 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: Re: DG: Large Gaming Groups > > >Normally I go for 4-5 myself. 8 is doable ( > > The largest group I've ever GM'ed consisted of 13 people, excluding me. > Kinda chaotic... > For myself, I stick to the original 3-members cell structure described in DG. Sometimes, a friend joins the table as an Ex- Navy Seals DG friendly (when more firepower is needed). Alexandre DG friendly The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/