From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 10:57 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > "Andy Robertson" wrote: > > Artists are the canaries in the cage. > Canaries in the coalmine. Erb. Yup. This canary is not too sharp right now, sorry. > > Y'see, one metaphor depicts artists as wild things become > pampered pets\prisoners, but the other is the function that > Kurt Vonnegut Jr. was going for, and that is the artist as > the somewhat delicate organism that flops over and croaks > when the atmosphere gets unhealthy for people. So what is happening to our present "artists" eh? A bunch of canaries on the sort of Canary Seed that Goes Up Your Nose. Actually I am not sure artists still fulfill the role of "canaries". Artists today seem to compete with each other in a race to scream "I'm dying" and keel over. The stress, you know, of living in a corrupt Capitalist society. Then they get up again and start pecking at the next grant. This early warning system has been efficiently negated, or maybe just fell apart of its own accord. Yours, Nailed to the perch. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Marc J Cassell [nekonube2k@juno.com] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 8:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:53:17 -0400 "Michael Layne" writes: > On 21 June 2001, first day of summer (at least in the Northern > Hemisphere of > Earth), "Jon Ward, Aardvark of Fnord" wrote: > > >More tradecraft. Also a little bit of conspiracy thrown in: > > > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/19838.html > > > >Basically - using mobile phone networks to detect "stealth" > aircraft > >(F119, B2 etc). Conspiracy is the sudden clamming up of the > company, saying > >they were "grossly misquoted" (tm). > > Could be they were... Did they have a stealth aircraft handy to > run > their tests against? Maybe it turned out that the RAM coatings on > the F-117 > and B-2 weren't as frequency-specific as the company had believed. Um I know some of the stuff And I have to say that when the craft are static they have VERY good resistance to normal radar detection. I think that is all you are cleared for at the moment. > Although the article implies that the US is the only user of > stealth > technology, aren't the Russians said to be working on their own > stealth > aircraft? Actually the original stealth technologies were developed by the Russians. Their mathematicians did the hard work and the US stole all of it because the Russian governments either didn't see the use or could not afford to develop the technology. > >Could this system detect Fun Guys, Byakhee, flying polyps etc? Well one of the things to rememberer from Whispers in the Darkness is that the FunGuys could not be photographed. Basically they were slightly out of phase with the electronics It I remember correctly. They could evade radar the same way. As for others I am not sure. However anything traveling in space must be extremely resistant to high levels of deadly radiations. What effect this would have on lower level wavelengths is speculative. > > The creatures could be detected, and, if necessary, shot down. > An > active or semiactive radar homing missile could probably target > them, and a > proximity fuze would likely work just fine (leading to considerable > damage, > with a SAM or AAM's blast-fragmentation warhead designed to destroy > full-sized aircraft). See the above about Mi-go not coming up on the radar. As for cruse missiles against He who shall not be named minions Skinner did prove that you could accurately target homing cruse missiles using pigeons to track the target. From the other thread about demented artists, could MJ-12 be snatching them up and using the canaries to home in on such things? > > > >Is Joseph Camp really Bill Gates in disguise? > Not sure but the evil meters are of the scale. > > > >Is it Linux or GNU/Linux? > > Who knows? (No, come to think of it, there are some things even > the > Doctor doesn't know...):) Go with Linux even though GNU, which can be reorder to spell GUN, rocks. > > > >Does anybody really care? > > Probably not.:) I used to.......... > > Michael Layne > DGGF#688 > theherald@hotmail.com Iceweb ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Marc J Cassell [nekonube2k@juno.com] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 8:55 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:53:17 -0400 "Michael Layne" writes: > On 21 June 2001, first day of summer (at least in the Northern > Hemisphere of > Earth), "Jon Ward, Aardvark of Fnord" wrote: > > >More tradecraft. Also a little bit of conspiracy thrown in: > > > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/19838.html > > > >Basically - using mobile phone networks to detect "stealth" > aircraft > >(F119, B2 etc). Conspiracy is the sudden clamming up of the > company, saying > >they were "grossly misquoted" (tm). > > Could be they were... Did they have a stealth aircraft handy to > run > their tests against? Maybe it turned out that the RAM coatings on > the F-117 > and B-2 weren't as frequency-specific as the company had believed. Um I know some of the stuff And I have to say that when the craft are static they have VERY good resistance to normal radar detection. I think that is all you are cleared for at the moment. > Although the article implies that the US is the only user of > stealth > technology, aren't the Russians said to be working on their own > stealth > aircraft? Actually the original stealth technologies were developed by the Russians. Their mathematicians did the hard work and the US stole all of it because the Russian governments either didn't see the use or could not afford to develop the technology. > >Could this system detect Fun Guys, Byakhee, flying polyps etc? Well one of the things to rememberer from Whispers in the Darkness is that the FunGuys could not be photographed. Basically they were slightly out of phase with the electronics It I remember correctly. They could evade radar the same way. As for others I am not sure. However anything traveling in space must be extremely resistant to high levels of deadly radiations. What effect this would have on lower level wavelengths is speculative. > > The creatures could be detected, and, if necessary, shot down. > An > active or semiactive radar homing missile could probably target > them, and a > proximity fuze would likely work just fine (leading to considerable > damage, > with a SAM or AAM's blast-fragmentation warhead designed to destroy > full-sized aircraft). See the above about Mi-go not coming up on the radar. As for cruse missiles against He who shall not be named minions Skinner did prove that you could accurately target homing cruse missiles using pigeons to track the target. From the other thread about demented artists, could MJ-12 be snatching them up and using the canaries to home in on such things? > > > >Is Joseph Camp really Bill Gates in disguise? > Not sure but the evil meters are of the scale. > > > >Is it Linux or GNU/Linux? > > Who knows? (No, come to think of it, there are some things even > the > Doctor doesn't know...):) Go with Linux even though GNU, which can be reorder to spell GUN, rocks. > > > >Does anybody really care? > > Probably not.:) I used to.......... > > Michael Layne > DGGF#688 > theherald@hotmail.com Iceweb ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Keith Potter [kjpotter@one.net] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:32 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft on 6/22/2001 09:54, Marc J Cassell at nekonube2k@juno.com wrote: > Actually the original stealth technologies were developed by the > Russians. > Their mathematicians did the hard work and the US stole all of it > because the Russian governments either didn't see the use or could not > afford to > develop the technology. Source, please? The Russians are sinking an awful lot of money into military aerospace programs right now, and they still don't even have even a crudely stealthy design yet. --Keith Potter The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Bruce Harada [bruce@ask.ne.jp] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:10 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:56:44 +0100 "Andy Robertson" wrote: [SNIP] > Actually I am not sure artists still fulfill the role of "canaries". > Artists today seem to compete with each other in a race to scream "I'm > dying" and keel over. > > The stress, you know, of living in a corrupt Capitalist society. Then they > get up again and start pecking at the next grant. > > This early warning system has been efficiently negated, or maybe just fell > apart of its own accord. Or maybe things have just got to the point when we don't really notice (or have become so desensitized that we can't even tell) if a particular piece of art is the product of a Mythos-deranged mind? Or perhaps it all is these days? (Except for those chocolate-box still lifes by Aunt Daisy, of course.) I'm thinking of things like the sculpture involving a cross-sectioned cow... what sort of a ruckus do you think that would have caused in the days of HPL? These days, it gets a "ho-hum, how gross" if it's lucky. (Of course, I don't really want to start a flamewar on the artistic value of modern sculpture or anything else; the cow is just the first example that came to mind.) Bruce The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Bruce Harada [bruce@ask.ne.jp] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:10 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:56:44 +0100 "Andy Robertson" wrote: [SNIP] > Actually I am not sure artists still fulfill the role of "canaries". > Artists today seem to compete with each other in a race to scream "I'm > dying" and keel over. > > The stress, you know, of living in a corrupt Capitalist society. Then they > get up again and start pecking at the next grant. > > This early warning system has been efficiently negated, or maybe just fell > apart of its own accord. Or maybe things have just got to the point when we don't really notice (or have become so desensitized that we can't even tell) if a particular piece of art is the product of a Mythos-deranged mind? Or perhaps it all is these days? (Except for those chocolate-box still lifes by Aunt Daisy, of course.) I'm thinking of things like the sculpture involving a cross-sectioned cow... what sort of a ruckus do you think that would have caused in the days of HPL? These days, it gets a "ho-hum, how gross" if it's lucky. (Of course, I don't really want to start a flamewar on the artistic value of modern sculpture or anything else; the cow is just the first example that came to mind.) Bruce The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:30 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Harada" > Or maybe things have just got to the point when we don't really notice (or > have become so desensitized that we can't even tell) if a particular piece of > art is the product of a Mythos-deranged mind? I would loooooovveee to believe these wankers had Mythos-deranged minds. Oh baby, yeah. Unfortunately I don't think they are artistic geniuses who have been infected by the Mythos: I think they are hacks who are trying to claim some sort of power in the simplest way possible - through purposive gross-out. There isn't a smell of real *evil* in their work. --- *** --- Still . . . I suppose ennui is the ultimate horror . . . . . And I'm sure there are some real artists still about: they just ain't the ones getting the grants and the fame. Starving the few remaining true "canaries", or drowning out their song, may serve the purposes of the Mi-Go as well as infectng them with Mythos horror. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:30 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Harada" > Or maybe things have just got to the point when we don't really notice (or > have become so desensitized that we can't even tell) if a particular piece of > art is the product of a Mythos-deranged mind? I would loooooovveee to believe these wankers had Mythos-deranged minds. Oh baby, yeah. Unfortunately I don't think they are artistic geniuses who have been infected by the Mythos: I think they are hacks who are trying to claim some sort of power in the simplest way possible - through purposive gross-out. There isn't a smell of real *evil* in their work. --- *** --- Still . . . I suppose ennui is the ultimate horror . . . . . And I'm sure there are some real artists still about: they just ain't the ones getting the grants and the fame. Starving the few remaining true "canaries", or drowning out their song, may serve the purposes of the Mi-Go as well as infectng them with Mythos horror. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of kirkesque [kirkesque@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 11:48 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder --- Bruce Harada wrote: > > > Or maybe things have just got to the point when we don't really > notice (or > have become so desensitized that we can't even tell) if a particular > piece of > art is the product of a Mythos-deranged mind? Or perhaps it all is > these days? > (Except for those chocolate-box still lifes by Aunt Daisy, of > course.) > "Constant over-stimulation numbs me/But I wouldn't want you any other way." I agree completely about the desensitization (what a word!) of the overall populace in the Western World. > I'm thinking of things like the sculpture involving a cross-sectioned > cow... > what sort of a ruckus do you think that would have caused in the days > of HPL? > These days, it gets a "ho-hum, how gross" if it's lucky. > Ever see some of Andres Serrano's stuff. That guy still elicits staunch reaction to his stuff, as does Mapplethorpe (for similar and dissimilar reasons). Although I'd say Maplethorpe is all too human influenced, whereas Serrano would fall into the Mythos-influenced category. And then there's Giger. Even through all the clichés about his stuff over the years, I still have visitors to my abode who shudder at the print of "Satan" using a crucifix as a slingshot... aimed right at you, the viewer. I still enjoy the look on the faces of the Mormon door-callers when I all-too-eagerly invite them in for a chat (but no tea nor coffee). My ex-grilfriend misliked (read as: disturbed by) Giger so much that my wall calender caused frequent arguements. In my life, art usually wins out over most other things. ...I still have the calender. ;> ===== et in arcadia ego, -kirk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of kirkesque [kirkesque@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 11:48 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder --- Bruce Harada wrote: > > > Or maybe things have just got to the point when we don't really > notice (or > have become so desensitized that we can't even tell) if a particular > piece of > art is the product of a Mythos-deranged mind? Or perhaps it all is > these days? > (Except for those chocolate-box still lifes by Aunt Daisy, of > course.) > "Constant over-stimulation numbs me/But I wouldn't want you any other way." I agree completely about the desensitization (what a word!) of the overall populace in the Western World. > I'm thinking of things like the sculpture involving a cross-sectioned > cow... > what sort of a ruckus do you think that would have caused in the days > of HPL? > These days, it gets a "ho-hum, how gross" if it's lucky. > Ever see some of Andres Serrano's stuff. That guy still elicits staunch reaction to his stuff, as does Mapplethorpe (for similar and dissimilar reasons). Although I'd say Maplethorpe is all too human influenced, whereas Serrano would fall into the Mythos-influenced category. And then there's Giger. Even through all the clichés about his stuff over the years, I still have visitors to my abode who shudder at the print of "Satan" using a crucifix as a slingshot... aimed right at you, the viewer. I still enjoy the look on the faces of the Mormon door-callers when I all-too-eagerly invite them in for a chat (but no tea nor coffee). My ex-grilfriend misliked (read as: disturbed by) Giger so much that my wall calender caused frequent arguements. In my life, art usually wins out over most other things. ...I still have the calender. ;> ===== et in arcadia ego, -kirk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:48 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder ----- Original Message ----- From: "kirkesque" >And then there's Giger. Nothing I said about "hacks" applies to Giger. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:48 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Mythos fodder ----- Original Message ----- From: "kirkesque" >And then there's Giger. Nothing I said about "hacks" applies to Giger. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of A J [andyj23uk@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:08 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Re: [CfB2K] Chapter 21: Joining the Choir "David A. Farnell" wrote :- > > Folks, the Challenge from Beyond is BAAACK! > > Thank you Yossi--a rockin' chapter with plenty of mayhem and a good, bloody > cast-trimming, and some damn fine writing, too. And on time! I am in > heaven...or something. > who cares WHO posts it or in what format , i wait with baited breath for the HTML with extra impact , but hey yossi . dam fine chapter and glad to see its back on track . Yours- AJ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of minstrel@40ad.com Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:47 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Re: [CfB2K] Chapter 21: Joining the Choir > who cares WHO posts it or in what format , i wait with baited breath for > the HTML with extra impact , but hey yossi . dam fine chapter and glad to > see its back on track . Smolder on! I don't care who posts it, but I definately get pissy when I see crap in a list missive. HTML mail program vendors have the exact wrong attitude. "Everyone can display HTML messages, so it'll be the default" Wrong. Everyone can display TEXT messages. Smolder off! Thanks for getting the (stellar story addition) translated, yossi!!! joe The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Marc J Cassell [nekonube2k@juno.com] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 1:12 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:32:09 -0400 Keith Potter writes: > on 6/22/2001 09:54, Marc J Cassell at nekonube2k@juno.com wrote: > > > Actually the original stealth technologies were developed by the > > Russians. > > Their mathematicians did the hard work and the US stole all of it > > because the Russian governments either didn't see the use or could > not > > afford to > > develop the technology. > > Source, please? The Russians are sinking an awful lot of money > into > military aerospace programs right now, and they still don't even > have even a > crudely stealthy design yet. > > --Keith Potter There is quite a difference in pure math, theory, and engineering. Also a lot can change in 20+ years. As for a source I can say Washington. Anything more could be classified. If you don't want to belive me it doesn't matter to me, but if you want to check up on it I'm sure you can ask your congressperson for papers relating to stealth techs under the freedom of information act. I don't think where they came from would be crossed out. Iceweb ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 1:34 PM To: 'dgrpg@delta-green.com' Subject: RE: DG: More tradecraft speaking of stealth aircraft... I had an unusual encounter with one. While stationed aboard the USS Independence (CV-62) in 1992, we were headed to Sydney to *ahem* celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Battle of the Coral Sea. At the time I had a desk job in the Aviation Support Equipment shop. In the shop, we had a TV tuned to the plat lens (this is a series of cameras that watch the flight deck). Myself and a few others were watching when we witnessed an F117 buzz the flight deck. This caused quite a stir, since we were off the coast of Australia (who we didn't think had stealth capability) and away from any USAF detachments (that we knew of...). When we asked higher ups, we got the usual response (i.e. "What the hell are you talking about?!"). OBDG: Think of all the sailors on the USS Greenville. Think none of them talked? Plot hooks galore. Stealth aircraft in Unusual locations... MJ12 trying to intercept a gray? Or perhaps a DG friendly with a REALLY good green box taking care of business? -----Original Message----- From: Keith Potter [mailto:kjpotter@one.net] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 11:32 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft Source, please? The Russians are sinking an awful lot of money into military aerospace programs right now, and they still don't even have even a crudely stealthy design yet. --Keith Potter The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 2:05 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:32:09 -0400 Keith Potter wrote: > on 6/22/2001 09:54, Marc J Cassell at nekonube2k@juno.com > wrote: > > > Actually the original stealth technologies were > developed by the > > Russians. > > Their mathematicians did the hard work and the US stole > all of it > > because the Russian governments either didn't see the > use or could not > > afford to > > develop the technology. > > Source, please? The Russians are sinking an awful lot > of money into > military aerospace programs right now, and they still > don't even have even a > crudely stealthy design yet. I'll have to sort through the piles in the Rodina (my computer\rec room that defies all attempts to clean it up) but there was an article in Popular Science which referenced a book about the Skunk Works that gave all the major points. Short version: Russian scientist\engineer wrote really advanced papers outlining the dynamics of radar signatures with algorithms for designing stealthy configurations. Nothing about materials, just 3D modeling. IIRC the papers were not secret and the findings were about as public as a complicated paper could get. Engineer with the Lockheed Skunk Works reads a translation and gets thinking. He has something on hand the Soviet engineer didn't have, a CAD system. Models were made and tested at the Hughes radar research facility in El Segundo (IIRC and all). It worked ever so well and soon the Lockheed boffins were looking into combining the "stealth" attributes with a shape that could fly. To give you an idea of how long this was worked on, the angular shape of the F-117 was due to the limitations of CAD at the time. The best they could do was a sort of wireframe with flat surfaces at precise angles. So, the original stealth tech wasn't stolen. It was free for the taking to anyone with the infrastructure to implement it. Or at least that's the public story. Feel free to speculate about just how public that Russian paper was. Also, did the Lockheed engineer read Russian or was a translation made available? Are *all* Russian papers translated into English for the aerospace community? Was that one specifically sent to the Skunk Works for evaluation? Mark McFadden I'll try to find the book about the Skunk Works that includes the history. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Keith Potter [kjpotter@one.net] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 2:24 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft (stealthfondling) on 6/22/2001 15:05, (The Lizard King) at lizardrex@charter.net wrote: > It worked ever so well and soon the Lockheed boffins were > looking into combining the "stealth" attributes with a shape > that could fly. I remember hearing a lecture by one of engineers who worked on the Tacit Blue program, that technology demonstrator thing that looks like a flying RV. He said that he was turning the problem of combining stealth with aerodynamics over in his head, over and over, not really thinking about anything else. He went to Disneyland with his kids on vacation and took this lump of modelling clay with him. He kept playing with it, trying to come up with something that would work. And sitting on a park bench, while the kids were on a roller coaster, he hit on that pronounced "chine" that runs all the way round the aircraft. Since looking at that, I've realized that all the stealth programs (F22, JSF, B2, & the various UACV proposals knocking about) seem to be trying hard to do away with the vertical. Where the fuselage rolls over, they put a chine. Fins are paired so they can be canted, or are just ommitted (B2). This seems like an obvious key to the shape-bases element of stealth, but no foreign program incorporates it... Not Rafale, or Eurofighter, or anything in Russia. Not even any of their little unmanned recon drones. Not sure how significant all that is... From what I understand, the engine turbines do a lot to create RCS... But that's my layman's observation on low observables. OBDG: If stealth technology is a gift from the Greys, can it really be so simple as an aggressive elimination of vertical surfaces in aircraft design? --Keith Potter The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 9:08 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Delta Green Alert in the Persian Gulf? Folks, A short time ago, I received word that US forces have been alerted in the Mideast, on the basis of a "credible, but nonspecific, threat against US interests". They've set "the highest state of alert" in the Gulf region, with all ships in port there sortieing ASAP, and the 5th Fleet setting THREATCON DELTA. (Meaning "terrorist attack is considered imminent") http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/06/22/military.terror.threat/ Major US assets in the region right now are headed up by the USS CONSTELLATION (CV-64) CVBG. (http://www.navy.mil/homepages/cv64/) ObDG: Obviously (at least to those of us accustomed to dealing with paranormal threats), someone out there has released Something. We'll let the regular military worry about masked desert bandits with AK-47s or tanks of nerve gas, or mere nuclear weapons... Plainly, Delta Green's concern would be with Something the Pentagon analysts (at least those who aren't DG) won't bother thinking of! An afrit, perhaps? Or some being of a type that inspired the original tales of djinnii and afrits? Somebody, down in the heavily-guarded hidden bunker, handing Saddam or Omar a bottle with the Seal of Solomon, as the Evil Overlord rubs his hands together and whispers, "Yessss, my preciousssss!" Luckily, with over ten thousand US personnel in the region, there should be sufficient DG Friendlies (and even Agents) to assemble a proper SpecOps team to deal with this problem... It would have to be covered as a more normal type of Special Op, but DG should have people in the Navy, Marines, and SOCOM in the right positions to set it up as one... While, by its very nature, the team would be heavy on SEALs, Force Recon, SpecOps helo pilots, etc. (and probably a bit light on Park Rangers and IRS investigators), it should probably include a psychologist, as the most useful weapons against such a supernatural creature might be psychology... (Spoiler for Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos") Spoiler Space In "Operation Afrit", the first part of "Operation Chaos", an enemy afrit, commanded by the invading Caliphate, stands up to every mundane weapon the Allies can throw at it. However, CPT Virginia Graylock, a US Army witch who worked for an advertising firm before the War, manages to have a talk with the critter. Before long, she has used her Psychology skill to remove enough of its SAN that it decides it is safer inside its bottle -- and retreats there! In a short time, the bottle is resealed, and the Good Guys triumph! (Anderson does a far better job of telling it than I just did!):) Of course, the above incident is only the first part of a tale in which the threat level gradually escalates through a rampant salamander, an incubus/succubus, and into an Evil Conspiracy controlled from outside the normal universe, and a DG-like group of Good Guys who decide to do something about it... The world is a bit like our own, but supposes that methods of degaussing cold iron (which has an inhibiting effect on magic) were discovered in the early 20th century, and that magical progress has supplemented technology. (The strike force in "Operation Afrit" includes a werewolf (Special Forces) and a witch (seconded from Unicorn Cavalry), making their insertion via flying broomstick, but carrying along submachine guns, and a polarized flashlamp to change the were back and forth...) It's a good book, and I recommend it! Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Rob Shankly [ludo@bigpond.com.au] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 1:59 AM To: The Delta Green List Subject: DG: Man jailed for breaking into coffins http://www.caller.com/2001/june/21/today/national/3355.html Philip Miller, of Allentown Pennsylvania, has been sentenced to 23 months in jail for breaking into burial vaults, opening coffins, scattering skeletal remains and stealing five skulls. ObDG: Incompetent sorcerer seeking the bones of ancestors? Looking for the crystal skull? Doing the bidding of contacts, still living in the DLs? Stealing vital components to prevent Resurrection? -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au Better living through reckless experimentation. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 2:04 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Optional Wound Rules FWIW.... I've created a system for optional wound rules for the DG:1939-1945 site. Since it might be useful to more than those running DG WWII campaigns, I thought I'd make it publically-available: http://www.geocities.com/furrylogic2/misc004.html Gil The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Rob Shankly [ludo@bigpond.com.au] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 2:25 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft Hi- US F117 & B2 aircraft have operated out of Australia in support of training excercises since around the time of the Gulf War. That's how we (Australia) found out that they show up on Jindalee over the horizon radar, especially when it rains* . How far off the coast was Constellation? "Rayburn, Russell E." wrote: > > speaking of stealth aircraft... I had an unusual encounter with one. (cut) > Myself and a few others were watching when we witnessed an F117 buzz the > flight deck. This caused quite a stir, since we were off the coast of > Australia (who we didn't think had stealth capability) and away from any > USAF detachments (that we knew of...). (cut) * http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/sci/tech/9803TUMIAM.html is a fair summary. -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au Better living through reckless experimentation. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 4:10 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: More tradecraft (stealthfondling) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Potter" > > OBDG: If stealth technology is a gift from the Greys, can it really be > so simple as an aggressive elimination of vertical surfaces in aircraft > design? Hmmm. Assume stealth technology involves things like exotic materiels and specially shielded dataprocessing nodes. Does it follow that it would *exclude* the elimination of vertical surfaces? Surely it's not some magic single thing, but a whole bundle of technologies? The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 9:46 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Delta Green Alert in the Persian Gulf? and, of course, this happens the very day my wife and I zip back home for vacation. so I can't tell you anything from the ground. shit. or is that a good thing...? J. Edward _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 9:11 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Delta Green Alert in the Persian Gulf? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Layne" > > A short time ago, I received word that US forces have been alerted in > the Mideast, on the basis of a "credible, but nonspecific, threat against US > interests". Oil, oil oil, pounds to pennies it's oil. No more spare capacity anywhere in the world except the Gulf, and Iraq putting the screws on. Interesting times a-coming The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 9:28 AM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Operation Chaos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Layne" > (Spoiler for Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos") > > > > > > > > > > > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > In "Operation Afrit", the first part of "Operation Chaos", an enemy > afrit, commanded by the invading Caliphate, stands up to every mundane > weapon the Allies can throw at it. > How does it stack up against Blish's THE DAY AFTER JUDGEMENT? The city of Dis emerges in Death Valley. The classical Dantean hell, with its nine circles intact - http://www.theonion.com/onion3408/tenthcircle.html but the first three are now coincident with the entire rest of the world. --- *** --- The good old USAF goes in with mega-nukes and gets a bloody nose. --- *** --- I've always liked stories about combat between archangels, demons, or afreets on the one hand and fighting machines on the other. The fact that such a combat is *possible* argues a fusion of worlds one bleeding into the other, a battle more existential than anything else. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Graeme Price [graemep@immagene.MCG.EDU] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 1:51 PM To: Delta Green Mailing List Subject: DG: Test (ignore) I said "ignore" dammit!! graemep@immag.mcg.edu The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 2:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Test (ignore) On 23 June 2001, Graeme Price said: >I said "ignore" dammit!! Acknowledged. Your test is being ignored by this station and all attached personnel, in accordance with the procedures set down in DGTIP-23-7, as amended 1994 and 2001. * Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com * Delta Green Test Ignorance Procedures _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Philip A Posehn [paposehn@juno.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 4:13 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Test (ignore) > On 23 June 2001, Graeme Price said: > > >I said "ignore" dammit!! Sorry. Am unable to process your request as submitted. Please resubmit in FORTRAN. The Illuminati ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 4:19 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Oil, that is... Texas Tea. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Robertson" > Oil, oil oil, pounds to pennies it's oil. No more spare capacity anywhere > in the world except the Gulf, and Iraq putting the screws on. Interesting > times a-coming And all because it's necessary, nay, absolutely unquestionably mandatory that we burn nothing except dead dinosaurs to go from place to place. Let's face it, there are absolutely no alternatives to friendly family values petroleum for all of our energy needs, except for nuclear plants built on fault lines, those are friendly and necessary too. And we'd all have enough to build our better tomorrow if it wasn't for those gosh-darned Ay-rabs and tree-hugging Commie hippies. And Liberals, them too. And Greens. Did you notice that one of the "solutions" proposed for California's energy crisis was another pipeline in Alaska? Don't laugh, I'm serious. It came right from Dubya's mouth, on camera. What an oil pipeline or petroleum itself has to do with the western energy grid and de-regulation of rates is a puzzler, since we don't burn oil to generate electricity (with the exception of the home generators people are buying in anticipation of the guaranteed rolling blackouts). Let's get some ObDG in here quick. OK, what sort of Mythos take can we get out of a black viscous substance pumped out of the Earth's crust? Well, what if oil isn't really just dead vegetation changed through PHT (pressure, heat and time)? How about: Oil is the remains of pre-human cities (and their citizens) disassembled by nanbots in a pre-historic war. Organic sludge. Oil is Ubbo-Sathla shit. Or milk. Oil is the larval stage of a lifeform that requires combustion for it's next form. Oil is the 3D expression of a complicated multi-dimensional construct. Oil seems to have replaced gold as the substance we pull out of the ground to make ourselves mad. Going to war over sludge? Going to war over sludge under real estate that couldn't support a goat? Puh-leeze. Would anyone but the locals know the difference between Iraq and Iran if it weren't for oil? Would anyone but the locals care? How many people heard or cared about Kuwait prior to the last Gulf dogpile on Iraq? I'm not trying to be insulting to anyone from the Mideast. I freely offer that y'all wouldn't know or care about California if it wasn't for Hollywood, and rightfully so. We're way the hell over here and you are way the hell over there and we don't speak the same language, except in Beverly Hills where Farsi is on the menu. In a better world we'd swap recipes and music and tourists and leave the sludge underground where it won't hurt anyone. Instead, we opted for Gulf War Syndrome, landmines, and flaming geysers as far as the tearing eyes can see. Now *that's* civilization. Gooooo Monkeys! Oil is the perfect symbol for a philosophy of diminishing resources. In spite of the efforts of Bucky Fuller and others, we are still trapped in the reality tunnel that insists that there is only so much to go around and the wise primate will grab all that they can while the grabbing is still possible. The Club of Rome and their ilk see everything in terms of a finite pie chart. Here's everything and that's your piece of the pie. If you want more you'll have to take it from someone else, and remember, they want more too and are eyeing your slice. Siege mentality, with the haves getting proactive against future have-nots. Malthus rides again. Take that mindset and then have them run the world fueled by something that is indeed finite and irreplaceable, unless you plan to bury the rain forest and wait for a few millenia. Meanwhile, 3/4s of the planet is covered with a fuel combined with oxygen to support combustion, which leaves distilled water as it's waste product. There's an entrepreneur in Atlanta who has converted every form of internal combustion engine to run off of hydrogen, and no, they don't blow up like the Hindenberg because most of his patents deal with the safe storage of hydrogen. Three guesses which industry keeps trying to buy him out along with his patents. If he wasn't such a contrary cuss we would never have heard of him unless he won a yacht race. I've mentioned this before, but there are new people on the list so what the hey? In the Energy Pavilion at Disneyworld's Epcot Center, the theme isn't energy per se. It's all about oil. The audience takes boats through dinosaur world (see kids, dinosaurs and oil are the same thing! You *like* dinosaurs, right?) scented with Swamp Gas (tm). Then the boats enter an auditorium and form seating for the multimedia presentation of The Story of Energy, which apparently consists of petroleum and nothing else. Uh, three guesses which company sponsors this attraction. I'll give you a hint, the grand finale is a loving flyby of an oil tanker plainly labeled "Exxon Valdez." Bad PR that, I wonder if they edited that out yet? Maybe replaced with scenes of happy smiling oil company employees feeding and petting caribou, far away from the bay. The capper is a cartoon in the push-the-buttons part of the pavilion. A line of monitors showcases a cartoon by Don Bluth with characters on the monitors interacting. The host is a strong-jawed Texan (you can tell by the hat) voiced by Charles Napier. Three guesses what form of energy he represents. His homey presentation is interrupted by a collection of unattractive or silly stereotypes representing other forms of energy. A stringy-haired bra-less (under a militant feminism symbol on her T-shirt) harpy demands to know why we haven't gone solar yet. A dim-witted child recommends flywheels, like in his toy. Sigh. Hydrogen is represented by a gray gnome in a lab coat who sounds like Peter Lorre. Who also, incidentally, blows everything up with his infernal hydrogen machine, ending the strident arguments from the other unsavory characters. At the end, all is that is left is the friendly Texan who informs us that right here and now, it looks like oil is the best and only choice. That attraction is also at the L.A. Museum of Science and Industry, kids push the button and watch the show over and over and over. Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 4:22 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Test (ignore) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme Price" To: "Delta Green Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 11:51 AM Subject: DG: Test (ignore) > I said "ignore" dammit!! > > graemep@immag.mcg.edu > > The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ > > Ignore what? Did I miss a meeting? Am I out of the loop? Dammit, it's not fair! What am I supposed to ignore? You said there would be a test, will this be on the final exam? Mark McFadden The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of talaphid [isa@zerg.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 5:05 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Re: Test (ignore) >> I said "ignore" dammit!! > Ignore what? Did I miss a meeting? Am I out of the loop? Dammit, it's not >fair! What am I supposed to ignore? You said there would be a test, will >this be on the final exam? As a part of the on going machinations of the "Blue Room", various heinous schemes have been perpetrated to further the infestation of normal human technological progress. One such manifestation, the 'ignore this test post to mailing list', is perhaps the most easily recognizeable by Delta Green agents, but the direct consequences have eluded investigation thusfar. After a large expenditure of resources, one Blue Room facility (most likely a satelite) was located, but had already sanitized. The case file remarks the only remarkable information gathered was graffiti on the far wall, "ORBS ANZO LGNNP BLACK MAN" The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 5:15 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: DG: Re: Oil, that is... Texas Tea. ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > > > Oil, oil oil, pounds to pennies it's oil. No more spare capacity > And all because it's necessary, nay, absolutely unquestionably mandatory > that we burn nothing except dead dinosaurs to go from place to place. Conventional oil output worldwide is starting to level off and will start to fall sometime in the next ten years, probably. Then a major worldwide depression may well hit us. There are plenty of other power sources but oil is way way the most convenient because it is liquid - you pump it out of the ground and pipe it places rather than dig it up and carry it - and weaning our society off it will be hard. The really funny thing is that we are still dependent on fossil fuels. Where did the future go? We should have been riding on vacuum point energy by now. --- *** --- Or even - never mind transfinite physics - if we had a halfway - no *tenth* way - competent biotechnology, we could build a hydrogen economy out of our back yards. We could have pools of purple bacteria that produced a trickle of hydrogen directly from sunlight and water, continually, and so have a hydrogen economy. A bit of extra sophistication and we could have pine trees that bled light hydrocarbons, not sap: an efficiency of half a percent would allow most houses to be run off their back yards. **Theoretically** it would be easy; but the understanding and control necessary to tailor plants at this depth has eluded us. Some visionaries have postulated these things, but that next step is not one our society is going to take, I fear. --- *** --- One obvious ObDG involves the use of simple biotech in solving the coming energy crisis. I am sure that the hydrogen-cracking-by-sunlight trick is stored in the protomatter organelle library. Suppose MJ-12 offers every Green liberal Californian a tube of "bacteria" and simple instructions? He he he he he. The Glove Cleaner The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-dgrpg@delta-green.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 6:53 PM To: dgrpg@delta-green.com Subject: Re: DG: Re: Operation Chaos On 23 June 2001, Glove Cleaner "Andy Robertson" had this to say about Anderson's "Operation Chaos" and Blish's "Black Easter"/"The Day After Judgement": >I've always liked stories about combat between archangels, demons, or >afreets on the one hand and fighting machines on the other. The fact that >such a combat is *possible* argues a fusion of worlds one bleeding into the >other, a battle more existential than anything else. Witness how many times we on this List have talked about finding a way to permanently deal with the Big C...:) I've got to admit, I was reminded more than once during those discussions of certain of the events in "The Day After Judgement"! Someplace, years ago, I read a story about an OGRE (or was it a BOLO?) on the bottom of the sea, near Ryleh, which blasted Cthulhu with its awesome firepower. The Big C of course reformed 15 minutes later, but found, for some reason, that he couldn't simply destroy the cybertank. (It may have had an Elder Sign painted on its armor or something -- I don't remember, as it's been quite awhile...) "What're you gonna do NOW?" Cthulhu demanded, and the cybertank blew him away again... And Cthulhu reformed 15 minutes later... And the Cybertank blew him away... And Cthulhu reformed 15 minutes later... And the cybertank blew him away... And... Well, you get the idea... The cybertank could probably keep blasting Cthulhu every 15 minutes for most of the expected time Humanity would occupy the Earth... (Guess it does everybody good to have a hobby!) Yes, I know it's highly unlikely, but it was fun to read! (I wish I could remember the title and author...) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/