From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David A. Farnell [1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:10 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? The well-rested Glovecleaner wrote: > My flabber has never been so ghasted. Seriously. This might just be the > biggest thing since, well, Quantum Mechanics. Now you and Will jut have to fit it into Domain Physics. BTW, could this explain why some stars seem to be older than the universe? Or did something else already take care of that while I wasn't paying attention? Hmm, a meteorite older than the universe... No. Back to work. Dave _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Khorne [khorne@cyberlink.bc.ca] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:22 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? I have always toyed with the idea that there are simply certain people who lose SANity in a different way, and to whom the normal process of SANity loss doesn't fully describe the reaction their mind has to extracosmic awfulness. For example, how much would the guy (sorry, the name escapes me) who wrote the original movie "the Blob" really be affected by a shoggoth or a formless spawn? It seems logical to me that Alphonse, because of the way he interacts with the Mythos, would be such a person. he's able to keep things sort of "at arm's length". Plus, the SANity rules for Call of Cthulhu/ Delta Green stem from the behavior of Lovecraft's own characters, who routinely lose a few marbles when confronted by the great beyond. In a biography of Lovecraft that I read, Lovecraft states that he felt this was an appropriate reaction, since those likliest to encounter the horrors of the Mythos would be society's sensitives, whose minds were already delicate and vulnerable anyway. Yet Lovecraft's confidants, especially those who knew him personally, attest to his strength of mind, and say with some irony that HE would handle the horrors he wrote about quite well (as an aside, I also get the impression that Grandpa was also a big fellow, so he might have enjoyed contact sports in another life). It seems to me that there might be people floating around like H.P. who would simply handle the Mythos well: be able to deal with it and retain some semblance of their normal selves. Perchance Alphonse is one. On the other hand, there are two other possibilities: 1) Alphonse is mad as a hatter, and his insanity takes the form of running an elaborate conspiracy to thwart the manichions of the Mythos 2) Most intriguingly, perhaps Alphonse knows an incredible amount about the preternatural threat, but he has yet to make those few crucial connections that would sweep his SANity aside. Lovecraft, again, writes about the danger not necessarily being arcane knowledge, but "the human mind correlating its contents" and assembling a complete picture. Perhaps Alphonse hasn't made those connections yet, or hasn't made enough of them, and is something of a ticking time bomb like Daniel Freis. "For Al, SAN penalties are more >>>like 10D6. Al has not gone insane, but when he does, he is going to be >>>quite "enlightened"." _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Khorne [khorne@cyberlink.bc.ca] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 2:25 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] buying Kevlar The query about modern armor reminded me of a question I've wanted to ask for some time. Can a person go and buy sheets of Kevlar or Sprctra, so as to make their own bullet proof/ bullet resistant attire? Most folks can come up with trauma plates rather easily: pieces of sheet metal or ceramic, that sort of thing. I have trigger happy relatives who assure me that even pieces of 3/4" plywood will serve if you're desperate enough, although its an experiemnt I choose not to conduct. Can a person simply buy Kevlar or Spectra, the penetration preventer, though, or are they controlled materials? Come to think of it, how would a person cut Kevlar or Spectra to make bullet proof clothing? Can it be cut with scissors, or does one have to hot melt it? That's always been my concern about Kevlar, that it can be penetrated by a hot projectile that melts a hole through it. Shrapnel, I'm told, is kind of hot, opening up the possibility of some unpleasantness. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Khorne [khorne@cyberlink.bc.ca] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 2:19 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? "Incidentally, I'd say the character of Andrea as imagined on this list - >that is, the "cleaner" for ops gone bad - fits this profile rather nicely. >Andrea just knows that the clean-up jobs are paramount, and that's a matter >of extreme importance. >Stuff about fishmen and greys and what are of no import. >And we still do not know how many Andreas are there." This is my first encounter with the concept of ANDREA, and, as always, I've got two cents to throw in. Call of Cthulhu, from whence this all arises, is largely the creation of Sandy Peterson. In various generations of the CoC rules, he mentions that he left out the concept, largely the product of August Derleth and Brian Lumley, of a "war in heaven", with the preternatural threat divided into camps of good guys and bad guys, because it vitiates some of the stark horror of mankind being left weak and defenseless in a harsh, uncaring universe. The white had "Elder Gods" there to save one's bacon and carrying around Elder Signs like cricifixes. In my opinion, the idea of ANDREA running around as a cleaner, "fixing" blown ops, is the same sort of thing. If the players notice that their big mistakes are SOMEHOW fixed, or if they attain a high enough level of awareness of what Delta Green is, and realize there's this ruthless correction factor waiting in the wings in case they screw up that badly, then some of the horror vanishes. They then become more cavalier (dare I say, more "cowboy"), knowing that things won't get out of hand. Just my two cents. ">I seem to remember some players adapted chunks of "Unknown Armies" for DG >games. >In UA there's rules to describe the fact that you can actually get used to >the uncanny, developing sort of a sanity-preserving mechanism. >Alphonse might be just hardened by years of dealing with the Mythos." Another old idea of mine. When you think about it, how much, really, would glimpsing a ghoul, which is almost human, or deep one affect the mind of someone in today's world? Even someone like my father, as cast iron realist who will not even allow science fiction literature in his house, would, upon confronting a deep one, eithe rimmediately exclaim "That's just a guy in a suit!" or conclude that he saw it on Star Trek last week and plug the bastard. Either way, 21st century man is less sensitive to the horrors of the Mythos, and would be less affected by them. Someone raised on comic books, Star Wars, and Battlestar Galactica just wouldn't see most minor mythos entities the same way a person in the 1920s would. The sanity loss curve would become steeper. Minor manifestations would carry almost no sanity loss, while the big guys (Cthulhu et al) would be just as punishing. Two more cents. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of CelticHound [celtichound@foobox.net] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:18 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? If you don't want to register with the NY TImes site, here's a link I'd posted before for a similar article: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/reu/20010813/universe.html A team of international researchers has made a discovery that might force scientists to rewrite everything they know about physics - that the basic laws of nature may be changing as the universe gets older. -- CH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Robertson" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/15/science/15PHYS.html?todaysheadlines > > > The magnitude of the change apparently observed by the group is minute, > amounting to just 1 part in 100,000 in a number called the fine structure > constant over 12 billion years. That constant, also referred to as alpha, is > defined in terms of more familiar quantities like the speed of light and the > strength of electronic attractions within atoms. > > > My flabber has never been so ghasted. Seriously. This might just be the > biggest thing since, well, Quantum Mechanics. > > > The Glove Cleaner > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > The Delta Green Mailing List > http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ > > _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Nerva Vels [nerva.ramos@verizon.net] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:40 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? You know, this whole 'stars older than universe' and changing laws of physics just proves to me that WE DON'T KNOW SHIT about what's REALLY going on!!! Then again, I've always believed that; never trust the experts, I say, 'cause they're always wrong..... nana nervy Solitary Cowboy (don't care if I'm a girl, I'm a COWBOY!) P.S. dont' you guys know that rules were meant to be broken? _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David Rodemaker [dar@horusinc.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:37 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? > "Incidentally, I'd say the character of Andrea as imagined on this list - > >that is, the "cleaner" for ops gone bad - fits this profile > rather nicely. > >Andrea just knows that the clean-up jobs are paramount, and > that's a matter > >of extreme importance. > >Stuff about fishmen and greys and what are of no import. > >And we still do not know how many Andreas are there." > > This is my first encounter with the concept of ANDREA, and, as > always, I've > got two cents to throw in. Call of Cthulhu, from whence this all > arises, is > largely the creation of Sandy Peterson. In various generations of the CoC > rules, he mentions that he left out the concept, largely the product of > August Derleth and Brian Lumley, of a "war in heaven", with the > preternatural threat divided into camps of good guys and bad guys, because > it vitiates some of the stark horror of mankind being left weak and > defenseless in a harsh, uncaring universe. The white had "Elder > Gods" there > to save one's bacon and carrying around Elder Signs like cricifixes. > > In my opinion, the idea of ANDREA running around as a cleaner, "fixing" > blown ops, is the same sort of thing. If the players notice that > their big > mistakes are SOMEHOW fixed, or if they attain a high enough level of > awareness of what Delta Green is, and realize there's this ruthless > correction factor waiting in the wings in case they screw up that badly, > then some of the horror vanishes. They then become more cavalier (dare I > say, more "cowboy"), knowing that things won't get out of hand. I have never seen Andrea as "fixing" an Op that has gone bad by solving the problem. I see Andrea as fixing a Op by "fixing" the people who screwed up in the first place. Andrea has (IMHO) a very limited mandate for "cleaning"... ...and she deals with the Mythos and those touched by it in the same manner as a biologist deals with hot agent. Sterilize down to concrete, or as close to it as you can get. If the players have screwed up that badly then they are no longer an asset, they are a liability. A very *dangerous* liability that has the potential to vector outward every quickly with horrific results... David _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Khorne [khorne@cyberlink.bc.ca] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:33 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane?] ">Say there is a psychoactive compound which acts as a 'emotional >suppressant'. Something that blunts emotional responses (e.g. san loss) >without turning the user into a full blown sociopath." I maintain that anyone who has access to the proceeds of the MK-ULTRA research (and in Delta Green, this research did yield useful results) can edit out specific sanity damaging events from memory, leaving a functional individual behind. I think Ewan Cameron's depatterning and psychic driving would be a very effective bulldozer approach to editing the mind's contents. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 5:07 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? ---- Original Message ----- From: "CelticHound" > If you don't want to register with the NY TImes site, here's a link > I'd posted before for a similar article: > > http://dsc.discovery.com/news/reu/20010813/universe.html Sorry agent, my bad. I have been off duty for a week and your post must have slipped past my notice when I came back. Well noted, it is indeed significant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Farnell" <1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp> > BTW, could this explain why some stars seem to be older than the universe? Yup. The problem is, really, that it could explain *anything*. If the coupling constants that govern the natural interactions are not, um, constant, any change is possible. However, it is worth noting that the values observed are very small. On the other hand the conditions at the start of the universe are crucially dependent on these constants: even small variations might lead to large results. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 5:08 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nerva Vels" > > P.S. dont' you guys know that rules were meant to be broken? Bah. Harrumph. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Greg Muir [gregmuir@adelphia.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:54 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Re: [KEO] TOME: House of Leaves > > Or the novel may finish you . . . death by confusion! > > LOL--I meant *my* novel. Still, I guess the warning still > applies. Hopefully > it'll be less confusing for the reader than it has been for me writing it. > Here's a thought, how about a guy who drives himself sane in the writing of a novel? His inner demons are now trapped in the book through this cathartic release, and now only the readers suffer from the subsequent madness. Gives a new meaning to the phrase "It must have taken a very fucked up individual to write this book." The reply is "Yeah, and he's better for it." It could be a real sense of horror if he doesn't realize this went on. Here he is feeling better having worked through his insanity, then he publishes and kicks back feeling good, until the suicides start. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Greg Muir [gregmuir@adelphia.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:04 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Book Recommendation I'll have to check it out. > > As a follow on, you might take a peek for Gene Wolf's "Soldier of the > Mist" at your local used book store. > > He sees things that no one else can. > > And if he touches them... > > -- CH > > > _______________________________________ > The Delta Green Mailing List > http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ > _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David A. Farnell [1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:11 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? From: "David Rodemaker" > If the players have screwed up that badly then they are no longer an asset, > they are a liability. A very *dangerous* liability that has the potential to > vector outward every quickly with horrific results... Indeed. Far from being a guardian angel, ANDREA, as she has been mythologized on this list since its inception, is an agent's worst nightmare. Experienced agents tell the rookies, "If you screw it up, you better clean it up, 'cause if you don't, ANDREA will. And then she'll administer the .45 Retirement Plan to anyone who's shown they can't take care of messes they should have avoided in the first place." Agents who can't handle their disasters (sometimes by taking a fall) are a danger to the conspiracy. ANDREA is the bogey-woman--she doesn't hunt monsters, she hunts bad agents. If you betray the conspiracy, ANDREA will get you. Funny thing is, this is purely a DGML urban legend. There is nothing in any of the DG books to support it (although you could take a couple of lines from _Rules of Engagement_ as support, they are far from definitive). It all grew out of the near-total lack of information available about ANDREA. The imagination abhors a vacuum. Which just goes to show how these things get started--and why I use it in my game. It's exactly the kind of rumor that would spring up among DG agents. Yep, ANDREA is probably really some paper-pusher. Delta Green doesn't have any "cleaners." What a laugh. Oh, wait, somebody at the door. Just a min-- [transmission ended] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of donald walsh [lissilambe@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:41 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? --- Nerva Vels wrote: > Then again, I've always believed that; never trust > the experts, I say, > 'cause they're always wrong..... Just remember what my old AASI used to tell me about that word, "expert". ex: former, in the past spurt: momentary, quick, flash in the pan expert: former flash in the pan Don Walsh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of talaphid [isa@zerg.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:46 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? > You know, this whole 'stars older than universe' and changing laws of > physics just proves to me that WE DON'T KNOW SHIT about what's REALLY going > on!!! > > Then again, I've always believed that; never trust the experts, I say, > 'cause they're always wrong..... This is why everything is a theory. Best working explanation given present evidence. Someone lied to you wildly if you were given testiment otherwise. Now, see, my physics background is a little light, but I had been reading some time ago that the earliest instant of the universe was a very interesting thing.. so small that the rules of general relativity and quantum mechanics had to interoperate, even though they don't. one is presumptions made because the universe is so damn big, and the other being presumptions made because things get too damn small. having both coexist because of the scale of existance makes for a mess. or so I read off the cover of a physics text. So I'm thinking there's a differential thingamabob (delta over delta, oh yeah) to apply to the whole of physics, based upon the operating size of the universe. then toss in the GOO, their court, et cet. mmm, yummy. Purposefully shrinking their own domains through constant exercising of their powers to increase them, with big A being in the lead...? _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:04 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane?] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > More to the point though, sanity loss in Lovecraft's tales is not based on > emotional but intellectual response. The protagonist doesn't go insane out > of emotional reasons like they lack closure or something - they do so > because of the intellectual impact of what knowledge of the Mythos means. Seems right to me. Most of the epiphany Madness in Lovecrsft seems to tend toward assaults to rationality. Non-Euclidean geometry and Cyclopean scale. Everything you know is wrong. The emotional responses seem to be related to discovering you're descended from something icky or Other. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:39 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Farnell" <1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp> > > Funny thing is, this is purely a DGML urban legend. There is nothing in any > of the DG books to support it (although you could take a couple of lines > from _Rules of Engagement_ as support, they are far from definitive). It all > grew out of the near-total lack of information available about ANDREA. The > imagination abhors a vacuum. Which just goes to show how these things get > started--and why I use it in my game. It's exactly the kind of rumor that > would spring up among DG agents. ANDREA is the lovechild of Dr. Joseph Camp and Julia Child. After an adolescence devoted to solving mysteries with her childhood friends and a dog, the combined family obsessions led to her tracking down the recipes for Anzique and Tcho-Tcho dishes. She has even seen the infamous 'Gustinomicon' by the mad Frenchman Pierre La Grenouille. She was the template for the heroine of a popular computer game series. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:00 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: RE: [DG] Re:The Black Seal >Yep, the site's working now. If you can't get past the front page then try: >http:www.the-wolery.demon.co.uk/TBS/HOME.HTM so it is! Thanks, guys : ) It looks really swell J. Edward _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:34 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? Khorne wrote: >I have always toyed with the idea that there are simply certain people who >lose SANity in a different way, and to whom the normal process of SANity >loss doesn't fully describe the reaction their mind has to extracosmic >awfulness. IIRC, In Cthulhu by Gaslight, Professor Moriarty had a Cthulhu Mythos of 99, and yet retained his Sanity. On the other hand, he was descended from Serpent Men... Hmmm........ J. Edward -- CAMPUS CRUSADE FOR CTHULHU -- Dubai, United Arab Emirates /-----------/---\-----------\ ------------|O O|------------ ------------\VAV/------------ -------------I I------------- "and who knows what depths lay in limitless sand; or what horrors are leashed by a great ebon hand?" - Ialdaloboth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Khorne [khorne@cyberlink.bc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:16 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? ">Indeed. Far from being a guardian angel, ANDREA, as she has been >mythologized on this list since its inception, is an agent's worst >nightmare." You're kidding, right? She's an identifiable threat which can be dealt with. There was a pain in the ass I played with back in the late 80s who'd have had that sort of character for lunch. The picture I'm getting of ANDREA is a sort of Delta Green Terminator. Experienced agents tell the rookies, "If you screw it up, you >better clean it up, 'cause if you don't, ANDREA will. And then she'll >administer the .45 Retirement Plan to anyone who's shown they can't take >care of messes they should have avoided in the first place." Keyser Soze, a spook story to tell your kids. Sounds a little cheesy. ANDREA seems like a dez ex machina est, a ghost in the machine to enforce game mechanics, the ability of the Keeper to directly intervene in the activities of the game to manipulate the players on the stage. PC so-and-so is not playing ball: he doesn't role play well, when he does at all, he doesn't take keeping the secrets seriously, he solves problems with firepower, so he gets a visit from ANDREA, a not so subtle way for the Keeper to say "play by the rules or you don't play at all". I thought we were all a little more grown up than that. Besides, the idea of the unbeatable tough guy/ gal is so boring. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Khorne [khorne@cyberlink.bc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:06 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? >I have never seen Andrea as "fixing" an Op that has gone bad by solving the >problem. I see Andrea as fixing a Op by "fixing" the people who screwed up >in the first place. Andrea has (IMHO) a very limited mandate for >"cleaning"... > >...and she deals with the Mythos and those touched by it in the same manner >as a biologist deals with hot agent. Sterilize down to concrete, or as close >to it as you can get. > >If the players have screwed up that badly then they are no longer an asset, >they are a liability. A very *dangerous* liability that has the potential to >vector outward every quickly with horrific results... It still mitigates the horror. As I said, the players may notice that, SOMEHOW, the threat is being contained, even when the threat is them, and they start to think, well, its not so bad. Which is scarier: knowing that some mysterious stranger is going to "bust a cap in your ass" because you spent too much time with that old moldy book, or knowing your BEST FRIEND is going to do it...may even want to do it? Knowing the mess will get cleaned up makes it less scary. The mere existence of ANDREA makes a good guys-bad guys camp again, and its very simple: if ANDREA hasn't come looking for you, you're a good guy. As soon as its us-them, there's less fear. 'They' become demons, who are capable of any depravity, while 'we' are always the heroes. The good guys and bad guys are identified. But if the PCs have to be self-cleaning, then its existential horror time again. The wilderness of mirrors, where you're never sure who's a friend and who's an enemy. Besides, the idea of a charcter like ANDREA is just a hackneyed piece of bad spy fiction. I've been led to expect better from the DGML. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Khorne [khorne@cyberlink.bc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:19 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? >IIRC, In Cthulhu by Gaslight, Professor Moriarty had a Cthulhu Mythos of 99, >and yet retained his Sanity. On the other hand, he was descended from >Serpent Men... Come again? I don't remember THAT..... _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:40 AM Cc: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, David A. Farnell wrote: > The well-rested Glovecleaner wrote: > > My flabber has never been so ghasted. Seriously. This might just be > the > > biggest thing since, well, Quantum Mechanics. This result has been floating around for a while now. I remember John Webb talking about it several years ago, but now he has some more data. Some theorists ave already tried some ideas for explaining it, and there are numerous possible explainations, though the implications of those aren't worked out yet. > BTW, could this explain why some stars seem to be older than the universe? > Or did something else already take care of that while I wasn't paying > attention? That has been taken care of by the Hipparcos satellite. Thge distances assumed for some of the standard callibrators for this work turned out to be a little wrong, and that has reduced the age of the globular clusters that were causing the problem. At least, its removed the problem for some models of th universe, though these are the currently mostl favoured ones. > Hmm, a meteorite older than the universe... Now that would be interesting! Dave _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Nick Brownlow [stabernide@netscape.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:28 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? <> You're missing the point. ANDREA is a name. It could represent a she, a he, or even an it. It might be one agent, or it might be several. There might really be an ANDREA, or there might not be an ANDREA at all. In-jokes about Velma and Angelina Jolie aside, there's been no attempt to create a 'definitive' ANDREA on list. rather, she's always been shorthand for describing something ugly and unpleasant in Delta Green - the notion that as an agent you walk the fine line between expendable asset and dangerous liability in the eyes of your masters. I doubt anyone makes much use of the concept as anything other than a colloquial way of reminding players that A-cell is watching them. The most concrete attempt to make use of her in a DGML project was in EMERALD HAMMER. Phil Ward used to have a nice story on the site in which ANDREA was portrayed as being a man. He also intimated that there had been many ANDREA's in the recent past (high attrition rate?). Anyway, I just checked and the link isn't working. Perhaps Phil could be persuaded to repost it to the list, or, even better, restore it to the EH site. His EH chapter,however (http://homepage.dtn.ntl.com/andrea.jordan/hammer/chapter06/index.html), does have some notes on how to play ANDREA. He takes the view of many DGMLers, myself included, that ANDREA does not work alone - rather acting as a co-ordinator for her own teams of cleaners. These might be drawn from DG's cell structure, or they might not be. Tellingly, even though she plays a large role in the scenario, Phil doesn't provide any stats for ANDREA ('No chance', I believe are his exact words), and recommends the PCs never actually have any physical contact with him/her. <> Then you've getting the wrong picture. <> I thought that was what all NPCs are for?. <> Good job it's not one we're using then. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 11:47 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Book Recommendation ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Muir" > > As a follow on, you might take a peek for Gene Wolf's "Soldier of the > > Mist" at your local used book store. > > He sees things that no one else can. > > And if he touches them... > I'll have to check it out. You do that! CH is right - Wolfe has a very special perception, probably due to his mystical/Catholic worldview. Here, he addresses ancient Greece, one of the three roots of the West, in a work full of shadows, echoes, mirrors, and visions. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:08 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Natural Laws not constant? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David.Clements" > > This result has been floating around for a while now. I remember John > Webb talking about it several years ago, but now he has some more data. > Some theorists ave already tried some ideas for explaining it, and there > are numerous possible explainations, though the implications of those > aren't worked out yet. I had no idea this result was around already, though I know it is not a new speculation. Its best treatment in fiction is the stunning story "A new Cosmogyny", in Stanislaw Lem's A PERFECT VACUUM. Lem (one of the few humans brilliant enough to uncover the truths of the Mythos by pure mentation, I would judge) imagines the Universe as a field controlled by what he calls "Players". These are entities old enough to have gained control of natural law. The Universe as we see it is the *result* of their actions. The original state of the Universe has been overlaid so many times that it cannot now be traced. Its current features - universal expansion, a "speed limit", very little life - are the results of the need to suppress the emergence of new civilisations to the status of Players and the consequent cosmocidal wars. --- *** --- Here's an earlier article on the theme of variable natural law on the Domain Science Letters site http://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/dsl_issue01_02_quantumuniverse.html The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Philip_Ward@yestelevision.com Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:25 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? Nick Said some really nice things: > The most concrete attempt to make use of her in a DGML project was > in EMERALD HAMMER. Phil Ward used to have a nice story on the site > in which ANDREA was portrayed as being a man. He also intimated that > there had been many ANDREA's in the recent past (high attrition rate?). > Anyway, I just checked and the link isn't working. Perhaps Phil could > be persuaded to repost it to the list, or, even better, restore it to > the EH site. Did it dissapear, or did I take it back off again beacuse I wasn't happy with it... hmm I shall forget my own head next. I will go rummaging and see if I can find it again :) cheers, Phil ********************************************************************** This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain confidential or privileged information and should not be read, copied or otherwise used or disseminated by any unauthorised person. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Yes Television (Europe) Ltd . If you are not the named recipient, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail from your system. ********************************************************************** _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:10 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? Greetings. As someone that has always had a crush on Andrea (supposing she's female) I feel like adding something... >The mere existence of ANDREA makes a good guys-bad guys camp again, and its >very simple: if ANDREA hasn't come looking for you, you're a good guy. As >soon as its us-them, there's less fear. Sorry. If Andrea does not come for you, you do not know about Andrea. I mean, old stories about the long-legged girl, a former geek turned killer, Joe Camp's illegitimate daughter... Yeah, and what else? Do you believe everything they tell you. > 'They' become demons, who are >capable of any depravity, while 'we' are always the heroes. The good guys >and bad guys are identified. It does not work that way. Andrea is not part of the insurance package they make you sign when you join Delta Green. Andrea is not a given. She's been described as an urban legend, and that's just fine. Agents that screw up die. Often, they die before they are able to compromise the operation or the structure. We say Andrea caught them. Most do not believe it, but try hard not to screw up all the same. But weeding out single agents that are loosing it is not Andrea's duty - cell-mates are supposed to be able to assess the liability and take care of it. And putting a metaphorical band-aid on Mythos outbreaks is not Andrea's priority - there's DG cells for doing that. Andrea works at another level. Andrea is a killer of ideas. >Besides, the idea of a charcter like ANDREA is just a hackneyed piece of bad >spy fiction. I've been led to expect better from the DGML. Check out "La famme Nikita", by Luc Besson. Forget the crappy TV series or the crappy Yank remake. Forget ranty speed-head fantasies by Quentin tarantino. Check out Nikita. Watch out for The Cleaner. That's where we got our idea for a cleaner in the days of old. Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Philip_Ward@yestelevision.com Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:47 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? Dr D. wrote: > Check out "La famme Nikita", by Luc Besson. > Forget the crappy TV series or the crappy Yank remake. > Forget ranty speed-head fantasies by Quentin tarantino. > Check out Nikita. > Watch out for The Cleaner. > That's where we got our idea for a cleaner in the days of old. Oh yes, Jean Reno is Victor the Cleaner, let nobody tell you otherwise. Andrea might be incharge of clean-ups in your campaign, but when it come down to it, and your best buddy finds he cant pull the trigger. Jean Reno will be the one who shows up with some knives, and a couple of bottles of industrial strength acid. How does the line go....something along the lines of: "He's still alive!" "Yes, help me hold him down till the acid finishes him off." Unfortunately I'm buggered if I can find the short story I wrote about him/her... Was anybody keeping score at home enough to keep a file called were_all.html from the EH web-sites (either of them?) Drat! Phil ********************************************************************** This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain confidential or privileged information and should not be read, copied or otherwise used or disseminated by any unauthorised person. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Yes Television (Europe) Ltd . If you are not the named recipient, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail from your system. ********************************************************************** _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of USFORREC1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:35 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] ALPHONSE and ANDREA This looks like a good place to jump in after my lengthy, enforced absence, so here goes… Probably a good case for Camp's lack of insanity is could be found in a couple of points. First, Camp is not a field agent and hasn't been one for probably a number of years. He doesn't seem to be studying mythos texts anymore and, with one noted exception, doesn't use mythos magic. This has probably been quite easy on his sanity over the last few years. Before that, it is possible that during the Cowboy Years he was little more than a highly placed administrator for the DG organization, such as it was, and again, not a field agent. It is quite possible that he has had little direct contact with the mythos during this time, instead seeing nothing more than agent reports and conducting debriefings. Some of the encounters he has had might have been made in relatively controlled circumstances, lessening the impact of the sanity loss (such as dealing with Jean Qualls). What he is dealing with is highly sanitized. I don't see the same SAN loss from reading a report stating an encounter with "aquatic humanoids" or "amorphous entity" as one would find with reading a true mythos tome or facing the entity itself. There is a level of shielding compartmentalization that has probably saved Camp's mind. Finally, while ALPHONSE doesn't have any major insanities, he is probably quite quirky. He probably has a healthy dose of paranoia, a few minor phobias, and some other eccentric or cold behavior. This isn't enough to show up as true insanity but enough to add "color" to any dealings with ALPHONSE. Next is the fact that Camp probably doesn't have a very complete picture of the Mythos threat. Even with a relatively high Cthulhu Mythos score, this has been gained over decades of fighting, a piece here and a piece there. He knows a lot about the peripherals of the mythos; the Greys, some of the cults, the Deep Ones, etc., but hasn't made some of the more mind-blasting connections. Also, during Camp's more active years, it is quite possible, since DG was legitimate, that there were psychological programs to help agents. After some of the more disastrous incidents it might even have been mandatory for agents to cycle through these after missions. Again, these might have saved Camp's (and many other old timers) sanity. Camp might still be running and partaking in such programs through DG Friendly psychiatrists to keep himself and his organization relatively sane. As for ANDREA, in my campaign, I see her role as more complex than simply "cleaner" for DG. There she is a Marine Counter-Intelligence officer who is charge of all security for DG. She handles mole-hunts, background investigations and a whole range of CI work for the group. She has had some dealings with MJ-12 and has some very low-level contacts in the organization. She has access to much of the government files on organizations and people that they keep. She is a bigger asset to ALPHONSE than simply assassin and acts as the military-intelligence counterpart to ADAM's law enforcement powers. Many rumors and legends have grown up around ANDREA, much of it pure BS but good disinformation in the conspiracy community. ANDREA can show as the best friend a cell could have (though usually behind the scenes) or their worst nightmare as she investigates, cuts them off and eventually disposes of (through many methods, not all of which are lethal) a corrupted cell. Anyway, just a few thoughts. Use, abuse or ignore as you wish… -Dave K. From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Pookie [pwca@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 6:32 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Zone Troopers So I'm reading Pinnacle's Weird War II: Blood on the Rhine (review written -- I'll post if requested for) and am distinctly reminded of a certain video. Although it's not supernatural, the video was Zone Troopers, a fun Allies vs Axis vs Aliens encounter in 1944... I saw it in the late 80s when I was working as a video store clerk. So I went to do a quick hunt for it and it's been deleted for four years! Anyone else remember this? -- Pookie (pwca@blueyonder.co.uk) "Squeak damn you Squeak!!!" See http://www.chorazin.org.uk/pookie/ for GURPS: Jorune etc "Don't take your pineal gland for granted. Pamper it! Essential Oils! Rubdowns! It could save your ass someday." - Tlg'manh, Unspeakable Oath 14/15 _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:01 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Zone Troopers imdb (www.imdb.com) has info on it. Doesn't see to be avail;able at the moment on video though. Dave _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@oceanfree.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:04 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com; Machiavelli132@aol.com Subject: Re: [Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane?] Since Id consider ALPHONSE quite sane, perhaps there are those rare individuals whose mentality is such they can weather slight mental assaults ablatively - yes, if ALPHONSE saw the big C, he'd go nuts, but since hes seen Byakkee, Deep Ones and Senior Sok, he has accepted that wierd shit exists, so it doesnt fase him. the San rules seem to suggest you wig out every time you encounter a new type of monster. Perhaps once youve encountered two completely different types of monster (indicating the grand difference, and thus scale of oddity) that when the third comes along its less screaming, and more "right, monster A was vulnurable to this, and Monster B was vulnurable to that - what will monster C be vulnurable to?" Visit http://www.oceanfree.net to get your free e-mail account and use our unique Irish Internet directory _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@oceanfree.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:11 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com; Gil Trevizo Subject: Re: [DG] Why Hasn't Alphonse Gone Insane? >Have you read the comic "100 Bullets"? I'll bet Andrea(s) is/are >Alphonse's own version of the Minutemen, but their job is not so much to >ride herd over the rest of DG as to be there to take out Alphonse when the >time comes. Although I also like the idea that Andrea as the Minutemen is >also there is clip the Friendlies and maybe even the contact Agents if DG >gets too close to exposure. Im reminded of an episode of Seven Days, where the Adolf Lepus-type character for BACKSTEP turned out to be leaking information - while he was delerious in the dentist. So, this journalist knows enough to badger them into an interview, where the lead character tells them the truth - he travels in time, in a big blue sphere (VERY specific on the colour), powered by material from the Roswell crash; he was picked from a mental hospital, where he was recovering from secret Chinese mind-control techniques, and he had saved the current president & vice president who were previously killed by an aircraft bomb hitting the White House. The Journalist's show was pulled off the air for being "trash" It works better for MJ-12, but what if exposure prevention is hitting the rumour mill with information that happens to be true but no-one believes because its, well, ludicrious? Visit http://www.oceanfree.net to get your free e-mail account and use our unique Irish Internet directory _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/