From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of jessthecatasc@eircom.net Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:57 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Pinky and The Brain > But weren't Pinky and the Brain Narly clutists? > I could have sworn that Alizs was funding Acme labs. > They had time travel powers so we know that Brian had acess to Gates. > Or was it Pinky who was a powerful cultist driven mad by the secrets that > the infrenal machine unlocked? No, but a secret cabal, whose agent was strangely like Christopher Walken, was continually trying to dupe Pinky into working for them (this is during the otherwise atrocious Pinky, Elmyra and the Brain period. Thankfully, the local TV station shows 9 hours of cartoons a day, so something vaguely good squeezes inbetween episodes of Pokemon and Australian scifi soaps for kids. Its called Digimon...). And whose the music had latin incantations to it... hrmm - MIBs, Latin... Scroggins, have you been abusing the mice again? - The Nuge _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of jessthecatasc@eircom.net Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:10 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] [pure OT] danke > ps: scary thing. I just learned that on Sept 11th, Jackie Chan was due to be > shooting scenes for an upcoming film on top of one of the trade towers... > but the script was late. Yes, he was over here. A coworker of my brother shot lots of scenes with him. I can just see it now in Fortean Times: "Irish inability to keep to a schedule saves Martial artist's life" _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:12 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Adventures Greetings. The MiB tried his hand at >The Delta Green Scenario Bibliography: and wrote.... >The upcoming Eyes Only Compilation will also include a Mi-Go adventure >(I think). I don't own the Fate sourcebook, so I'm not sure if there's a >scenario in there. There is not. > And of course, there's all the "amateur" scenarios ... and "scenarios waiting to happen" hidden like Easter Eggs in the Ice Cave www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/ice_cave.htm And as we are at it, Bruce Ballon's "Unseen Masters" contains guidelines and notes for using the Cthulhu Now material therein in conjunction with DG. Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Keith Potter [kpotter@columbus.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 8:43 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? on 9/26/2001 18:37, Eckhard Huelshoff at EHuelshoff@t-online.de wrote: > The WTC tragedy might totally change the role of DG once again... Hey wow, that's a real good idea. It's a major RW event on the scale needed for a shift in DG's status. If nothing else, this Office of Homeland Security is the perfect cover for DG ops... --Keith Potter _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Charles Ripper [yeroshka7@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 9:24 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Re: Cthulhu Cult in Centra Asia >From: Gil Trevizo > >I'm working off Adam Crossingham's article on the Black Dragon Society in >the Cthulhu Live: Delta Green book. In there, the BDS is directed by a >shadowy force known as the Order of the Green Dragon, who in turn, are in >contact with the Green Men, Agarthic monks of the Left Hand Path in a >monastery in Tibet: *snip quote* >Actually, the above is from a draft of the chapter Adam provided us on >Kurotokage. Ok. I had forgotten about the BDS chapter. I have to go back and reread that. > >This does not mean that the Ascended Masters of the Cult of Cthulhu are in >the area, but there is some evidence that Lovecraft himself placed them in >central Asia. Castro's remark in "Call of Cthulhu" seems like a dig >against the Theosophists, But Castro's remark is that he met the Masters of the Cult in the 'mountains of China.' There are a lot of mountains in China that are not the Himalayas, and putting them in the Himalayas makes a bit of a car-wreck of Mythos activity on the Tibetan Plateau. Tcho-tcho high priests, Mi-go world headquarters, the Masters of the Cthulhu Cult and the Plateau of Leng. This is not to mention the Yeti(Voormis), the Green Men, or putting the K'n-yani in Shangri-La, which I proposed, the Theosophists, the Shaefer Expedition, and many native myths that point toward magic in the highlands, which could be tied to the Mythos. I know the Tibetan Plateau is large, but this strikes me as too much. That's one of the resons that I was happy to put Shamballah in the Taklamakan region. It's near enough to connect with Tibet, but it's still out of Tibet. The main problem I see is that all of these factions have long histories, in some cases tens of thousands of years long. If they cohabited the Plateau, then they had to know of each other in some way, and would have dealt with each other. That they all survived implies that they developed at least a modus vivendi, and may actually be working with each other. This leads to all the Mythos conspiracies evolving into one big conspiracy based in Tibet, and I for one don't want that. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but that's where I stand. >Personally, I working from the standpoint that the Green Men are the >Ascended Masters of the Cthulhu Cult, as: > >a) Tibet will play a major role in DGWW2. > >b) Something happened to the Cthulhu Cult between the '20s and the '90s >that caused them to basically disappear, at least from the view of Delta >Green (as stated in the DELTA GREEN sourcebook). > >Put that together, and I would say there is a place here for DGWW2 to play >with the idea that the Karotechia and the Black Dragon Society (which >Adam's chapter also has united through the Green Men) as being the lead by >which DG and/or PISCES track and deliver a serious blow to the Cthulhu >Cult. This I can understand. Do you have any of these ideas developed, or are you still brainstorming this section? This is how I would do it, though: if the Masters of the Cthulhu Cult were in the south of China, part of its disruption would have come out of the Taiping Rebellion, and an anti-Mythos group that sprang from the rebels. I've been thinking that their leader was driven insane by some Mythos-tainted ritual that he witnessed, and formed the real basis of his crusade. He was insane, though, truly, madly and deeply, and identified the Manchus with the Mythos for some as-yet-determined reason. He didn't succeed, but created a small troop of followers who became aware of the Mythos and decided to stop the horror deflicting the Empire. When they found out about the Cthulhu Cult, they took measures that the Empire was unwilling to do, and they managed to survive in some form through the Republic period until at least WW2. Use, abuse, refuse, as you will. Charles _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 10:20 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] to hell in a bucket, part deux "> This is essentially the "Resistance Force Comparative Scale" method used > to train police officers. Basically, an officer responds with > incrementally increasing levels of force until the subject backs down, > is arrested or gets shot by the SWAT team." We have seen many instances of interaction between legal authorities and potential recidivists lead to greater anguish and greater bloodshed because of this process of force escalation. I am left wondering if the rapid - perhaps hyperbolic - levels of escalation which Suvorov discusses might lead to a reduction in misery and pointless bloodshed if applied in the west. Why do legal authorities have to wait until someone dies? "letting more > easily preventable Rwandan Genocides occur." How would you have prevented it, then? _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 10:37 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] tradecraft When the Man In Black posted his Delta Green wish list, one of the items he (and others) expressed an interest in was a primer of tradecraft for the non-initiated who play Delta Green, tradecraft being the nuts and bolts of actual spying. Unusually for one of the Man In Black's posts, this got me to thinking: why is such a primer needed? How much is actual espionage tradecraft, as currently practiced in what is ostensibly peacetime, used in a Delta Green game? In this instance, I don't mean tradecraft as the OSS and SOE practiced it, which was properly irregular warfare, but tradecraft as is currently practiced by the CIA, MI-6, and the SVR. An operations officer identifies a likely target and proceeds to gather human intelligence on it through intercation with human beings. It can be the purchase of information for sale, deception and theft of information, and a host of other things. How much are the current methods of HUMINT gathering going to help against any of the Mythos oriented foes which crop up in Delta Green? Majestic 12 is repeatedly built up to be so secret and secure that Average Joe operations officer doesn't stand a chance, and, even if he did, MJ-12 is on US soil, where the CIA cannot go. The Karotechia, Skoptsi, Tiger Transit, and the Brotherhood of New Potential? See 'em and shoot 'em. They're foes for cowboy operations, and if you're going to go and blow holes in people, there are better character templates than an intelligence officer. Taking a step back and looking at it as that it is the government agent that the CIA/ DIA/ DEA character represents which is more important, rather than said character doing "intelligence officer things", then its probably a dead lock that CIA characters won't be clandestine service, or, at least, active members therof. Clandestine service characters - who everyone thinks of when you hear "spies" - would most likely crop up in adventures off US soil. How many of those being run by North American based list members? Actual adventures which have some part of them on foreign soil? Tradecraft - MICE, secret transmission of messages, encryption, and all the rest - is probably next to useless in a Delta Green game, for two reasons: 1) Do any players out there really have the patience to run through such a watch and wait scenario, when they'd much rather be shooting things? 2) Such techniques imply a Myhos enemy which the characters cannot battle head on. There aren't any other than MJ-12, and its on US soil, so it would be MI-6/ SVR/ Mossad targeting it, not an American agency. Given the cowboy mentality I've seen, even were a Mythos enemy to turn up which the characters would have to battle spy-style as sharks nibbling around the edges, rather than hammer style, head on and hard as you can, I doubt any kind of prolonged game employing copious tradecraft would ever get played, except by the real hard core out there...both of them. Just my two cents. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 10:38 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? If nothing else, this Office of Homeland Security is the perfect cover > for DG ops... ...if this MVD is an actual agency. It smells more like a domestic affairs DCI to me. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jon Ward, Aardvark of Fnord [wardjr@aston.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:01 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? [Concept of Leng being in Afghanistan] Also, the Russians are saying that they will provide information from the time of their occupation. GRU SV8 might possibly contact Delta Green, and drop a feew clues about the area. On a slight tangent, I saw an interview on BBC TV with a Russian veteran from the Afghan war, who maintains the veterans museam. When asked what advice he would give to the allies, he replied "Whatever you do, do not send in ground troops." Jon -- Jonathan Ward || "Strange, the transfers stopped after about 30,000." School of Engineering || "After 32767?" Aston University || "Oh. Yeah." *click* j.r.ward@aston.ac.uk || [Real conversation at a previous place of work] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Don Fougere [bolide@mars.ark.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:43 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] News Article - Canada's JTF-2 (Countdown) http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/wtc_jtf2.html From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:30 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alek James Hidell" > How much are the current methods of HUMINT gathering going to help against > any of the Mythos oriented foes which crop up in Delta Green? Majestic 12 > is repeatedly built up to be so secret and secure that Average Joe > operations officer doesn't stand a chance, and, even if he did, MJ-12 is on > US soil, where the CIA cannot go. The Karotechia, Skoptsi, Tiger Transit, > and the Brotherhood of New Potential? See 'em and shoot 'em. They're foes > for cowboy operations, and if you're going to go and blow holes in people, > there are better character templates than an intelligence officer. Unless you are playing Mission Impossible with the exposition opening including all pertinent files and intel, the Investigators are going to have to do a little investigating. That's tradecraft. If you don't really care whether or not that suspected cult is really a Mythos cult before you come in with Desert Eagles ablazin', by all means skip the tradecraft. If you don't feel a need to know the layout of the headquarters\temple\compound, the number of guards there or what preparations they have made to handle the classic half-pincer into a fortified stronghold, just lock & load. And who said you can't take on MJ-12? It's probably not a good idea to make a commando assault on the Country Club, but even massive clandestine organizations are made up of individuals who have a private life when off duty. Tradecraft is what you use to find out who they are and where they live and what their schedule is like and when they are vulnerable and just what that vulnerability is. Tradecraft is what keeps them from noticing you while you find these things out. Tradecraft is what you use to make or spot a Friendly. Tradecraft is what you use to set up a Green Box. Tradecraft is what you use to pass hardcopy or cash to a team member when you suspect you are under surveillance. Tradecraft is what you use to follow someone undetected, or to shake a tail you've picked up. Tradecraft is the care and feeding of an informant, or spotting a potential informant in the first place. See 'em and shoot 'em? Well, yeah, that's pretty much what happens *at the end*, but there's supposed to be some role-playing along the way. That's why the player characters are called Investigators in CoC. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of dg@fomalhaut.mmcc.monash.edu.au Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:48 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Crop Spraying On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Michael Layne wrote: > While the suggestions are good ones, most of the substances in the list > are going to have limited availability, even to the average Mythos cult. If you want to economically damage the US, flying across the midwest with a crop duster full of Wheat Rust may well cause significant damage to the US agricultural industry. Whether you could gather and grow significant amounts of the stuff, I dunno, I suspect it wouldn't be too hard... Wacky Mythos Cultists could always cause some trouble by spraying large areas of land with the Milk of Shub-Niggurath. I'm sure anything from Children of the Corn to Attack of the Killer Tomatos could result from this... The image of a bunch of DG agents in a crop-duster spraying the area with the powder of Ibn-Ghazi (or whatever it's called) while their companions run about on the ground frantically trying to find/fight something has just popped into my head and wont go away... Tally Ho! Star Vampire on my 6... -- Tim Betz http://www.arsimagica.net/~vag/dg/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:18 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] to hell in a bucket, part deux -----Original Message----- From: Alek James Hidell >"letting more >> easily preventable Rwandan Genocides occur." > >How would you have prevented it, then? How do you stop murdering bastards driving around hacking people with machetes? You shoot them with 5.56N copper jacketed lead until they stop. You'd need less than 10,000 troops to do this for three to six months. Then you slowly start withdrawing troops until only the original 2000 or so UN bluehats are left. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [The 7th Chemical] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jussi Marttila [velcrokf@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:26 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft >From: "Alek James Hidell" >In this instance, I don't mean tradecraft as the OSS and SOE practiced it, >which was properly irregular warfare, but tradecraft as is currently >practiced by the CIA, MI-6, and the SVR. An operations officer identifies >a >likely target and proceeds to gather human intelligence on it through >intercation with human beings. It can be the purchase of information for >sale, deception and theft of information, and a host of other things. > >How much are the current methods of HUMINT gathering going to help against >any of the Mythos oriented foes which crop up in Delta Green? Majestic 12 >is repeatedly built up to be so secret and secure that Average Joe >operations officer doesn't stand a chance, and, even if he did, MJ-12 is on >US soil, where the CIA cannot go. Remember, any CIA agent who is part of Delta Green will be operating illegally anyway. The question of "is it legal" should never arise. The CIA has in the past operated inside the country (in the sixties, Cuban exiles and all that jazz) and furthermore, using the "foreign terrorists" card they can be brought in perfectly legally. The Karotechia, Skoptsi, Tiger Transit, >and the Brotherhood of New Potential? See 'em and shoot 'em. They're foes >for cowboy operations, and if you're going to go and blow holes in people, >there are better character templates than an intelligence officer. > This spells out "W-A-C-O", as in Stuff That You'd Rather Not See Live On Television If You Are Responsible, Especially If It Might Mean Congressional Hearings. Cults can be taken out through tradecraft, for example, the spooks might get their hands on financial stuff that the IRS can ream them with until they scream for mercy. >Taking a step back and looking at it as that it is the government agent >that >the CIA/ DIA/ DEA character represents which is more important, rather than >said character doing "intelligence officer things" But these characters are brought into the conspiracy because they have intelligence officer skills. That should IMO be reflected in the game. >1) Do any players out there really have the patience to run through such a >watch and wait scenario, when they'd much rather be shooting things? My players do. If they want just to kill stuff, it's (IMO) not Delta Green. It's Delta Gunz. >2) Such techniques imply a Myhos enemy which the characters cannot battle >head on. There aren't any other than MJ-12, and its on US soil, so it >would >be MI-6/ SVR/ Mossad targeting it, not an American agency. Given the >cowboy >mentality I've seen, even were a Mythos enemy to turn up which the >characters would have to battle spy-style as sharks nibbling around the >edges, rather than hammer style, head on and hard as you can, I doubt any >kind of prolonged game employing copious tradecraft would ever get played, >except by the real hard core out there...both of them. My closing statement: Tradecraft is for verimilitude, it helps the Suspension of Disbelief, which is very important in a game like Delta Green. Take away that realism and you'll end up with a Pale Pooch game, which reminds more of a bad TV series. Jussi _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:39 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Cthulhu Cult in Centra Asia(was Re: [DG] Teaming up with Evil) From: Gil Trevizo >b) Something happened to the Cthulhu Cult between the '20s and the '90s >that caused them to basically disappear, at least from the view of Delta >Green (as stated in the DELTA GREEN sourcebook). In Cthulhu Live: Lost Souls, the Cthulhu Cult's history is described in great detail. In 1904, a schism occured in the European Cult of Cthulhu when the Black Brotherhood, angered over the Western Cult's lopsided arrangement with the Eastern Monks of Cthulhu, split from the main group in a short bloody war of sorcery. This conflict resulted in a crippled Black Brotherhood and an entirely new and much more ruthless regime of Western Priests. I can only assume that the Black Brotherhood rebuilt for a few decades only to reignite the conflict in the 20's and 30's. It would seem that after their initial birth pangs, they managed to deal a deathblow to the Archheirophant of Cthulhu whom they unwittingly helped to install. The Black Brotherhood is my second Mythos suspect for involvement in the WTC catastrophe, as destabilizing the world's political economies is one of their main goals. But the prime suspect remains the Karotechia, conducting a mass sacrifice. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [The 7th Chemical] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Luis Vilaça [iberika@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:07 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Nocturnum Thanks to all those who have answered my previous questions. Just one more (for now :-) Anybody has the Nocturnum trilogy from Fantasy Flight Games? Are those 3 books good enough to buy? Thanks, Luis ===== v.i.s.i.t | m.y | 3.D | g.a.l.l.e.r.y http://www.cortereal.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:24 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Nocturnum -----Original Message----- From: Luis Vilaça >Anybody has the Nocturnum trilogy from Fantasy Flight >Games? Are those 3 books good enough to buy? I'd rather have $75 than the Nocturnum Trilogy any day. If you can get them used for $5 each it might be worth picking up. Don't you have access to RPG.net reviews? The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [The 7th Chemical] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David A. Farnell [1639556911@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:27 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft From: "Alek James Hidell" > The Karotechia, Skoptsi, Tiger Transit, > and the Brotherhood of New Potential? See 'em and shoot 'em. Gotta find 'em, first. Also, this brings to mind a DG game I ran in which the players completely ignored tradecraft while going up against some Tcho-tchos in the USA. The players were proto-agents--they hadn't become aware of DG yet. Because they failed to investigate in any effective way, they didn't find out that the Tcho-tchos were only a minor part of the case. Because they didn't even try to approach the situation in a realistic manner (or even the kind of simple tradecraft one can pick up from watching X-Files), they ended up "going cowboy" on the Tcho-tcho restaurant in broad daylight, gunning down those poor Asian immigrants without any evidence for cause. So they destroyed their careers, of course ruining any usefulness they could have brought to DG, and also had the FBI (their own agency) after them for murder and hate-crimes. They made the 10 Most-Wanted List. And the main bad guy got away clean. Needless to say, they never got an invitation to the opera. Not what I'd call a successful investigation. > They're foes > for cowboy operations, and if you're going to go and blow holes in people, > there are better character templates than an intelligence officer. If that's the mission, yes--use commandos. But since I've never run a mission of that nature (not intentionally, anyway!--my players have turned a couple of missions into cowboy ops, certainly), I'd like to have a primer to hand out to my players ahead of time. Not overly complex--something maybe three or four pages long, just enough to get them started on what they as agents can do, what would get them arrested if they do it in public, how to *act* like a proper agent (even if they are going to "go cowboy" under cover of the night) so the non-DG investigators and the public don't think they're fakes, how to contact the DG central command to report or ask for assistance without blowing the conspiracy, that kind of thing. Simple, so they don't get overwhelmed. Then, if they want, I can give them other handouts with greater detail on aspects of tradecraft that's suited to their characters. Articles ranked in complexity so they can study up as deeply as they want, or not, depending on how much of that kind of thing they enjoy. For several good examples of how tradecraft can be used effectively to enhance roleplaying, get John Tynes' novel, _Rules of Engagement_. > Given the cowboy > mentality I've seen, Sounds like you're believing the hype over on the Strange Aeons list, or taking in-jokes too seriously. Me, I keep hearing from people on this list, again and again, how the Cowboy Attitude is just *not* the way to go. Oh, we joke about "filling them full of lead," but we also post suggestions on how to avoid turning games into gun-fests. Check the archives. Check the Delta Green sourcebooks. Check the adventures that have been written. Despite what some people think, Delta Green was never intended to be "Guns and Ghouls." Some people do play "Delta Gunz," and that's fine if that's what you enjoy, but I've always had the impression that the majority of people who post here are not in favor of that style of play. > except by the real hard core out there...both of them. > Just my two cents. Alek, you might want to wait until you know people here better before you say stuff like that. Your two cents gets devalued when you speak from ignorance. Just my two cents. Dave _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Bomias1@aol.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:14 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft In a message dated 9/27/01 2:28:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lizardrex@charter.net writes: << Tradecraft is what you use to make or spot a Friendly. Tradecraft is what you use to set up a Green Box. Tradecraft is what you use to pass hardcopy or cash to a team member when you suspect you are under surveillance. Tradecraft is what you use to follow someone undetected, or to shake a tail you've picked up. Tradecraft is the care and feeding of an informant, or spotting a potential informant in the first place. >> Exactly! Right now, I have one of my players (the CIA officer), unbeknownst to the other players, acting as the contact between the DG hierarchy (A cell and the like) and a MJ-12 geneticist that the cell captured and turned over to said hierarchy. The geneticist was returned to the cell three days later with orders to return him to his lab and drop the investigation. A cell then sent word to the MFL (Man From Langley) to secretly start meeting with the geneticist so that A cell could receive ongoing intelligence on his activities for MJ-12. I have been having them meet in dark little cafes and city parks and isolated roadside hotels, but both the player and I know that this is stupid. There is no way in hell that an organization like MJ-12 would allow a person with clearance like this guy has to operate so free of surveillance that such activity would go unnoticed. It's just that neither I or my player know how this is "really" done in the real world. Instead we fall back on movie cliches. Incidentally, my player did come up with an excellent method for getting intel from this geneticist in a way that MJ-12 will never catch. My players have been to the Dreamlands a few times, this CIA officer among them. One of the other players has read "The Notebooks of Diedrich Knickerbocker" or whatever (a tome from an issue of TUO) and has learned to brew the dream potion from the book. My CIA guy plans to make the geneticist drink some of the stuff, thus forcing him into the dreamlands. He figures he can then arrange to meet the guy in the Dreamlands and interrogate him at his leisure. Of course, he doesn't realize yet the likelihood of forgetting Dreamlands-aquired knowledge upon awakening, but it should be fun to see him try out all this. The Thug Whisperer "Back off Man! I'm a scientist." ------Peter Venkman _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:46 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] to hell in a bucket, part deux How do you stop murdering bastards driving around hacking people with > machetes? You shoot them with 5.56N copper jacketed lead until they > stop. You'd need less than 10,000 troops to do this for three to six > months. Then you slowly start withdrawing troops until only the original > 2000 or so UN bluehats are left. And murdering a thousand or so Africans is always good foreign policy. It's still just a global schoolyard, except the big kid has a machinegun. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dirk R. Festus Festerling [festusdirk@yahoo.de] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:00 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? > > And some of them may remember DELTA GREEN, not > necessarily by the name, but by > the deeds. > > And someone might come up with the idea of > reactivating this organisation, > ending its status of an illegal conspiracy. i´m not sure if showing up to say: have no fear. Delta green didn´t disappear in 1969. would be such a great idea. and any other makeshift anti-mythos-operation assembled in a hurry will not only be composed of friendlies and neutrals (possible later allies), but lots of dangerous individuals too. > The WTC tragedy might totally change the role of DG > once again... i´d prefer staying undercover (still trying to reroute some of the increased anti-terrorism funds.) festus __________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jon Capps [jon@monster-net.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:49 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Nocturnum The MiB wrote: > I'd rather have $75 than the Nocturnum Trilogy any day. If you can get > them used for $5 each it might be worth picking up. I thought I saw this reprinted in a single volume not too long ago. Couldn't have been more than $25-30. I'll go check it out today to make sure. Jon Capps. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jon Capps [jon@monster-net.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:05 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > And someone might come up with the idea of reactivating this > organisation, > ending its status of an illegal conspiracy. I like this idea, but I also like the idea put forth earlier that the Office of Homeland Defense would be an MJ-12 puupet office. So, if I had a current campaign running, I'd probly set up the Reactivated DG under the Homeland Defense, and under the jurisdiction of the still secret Majestic. This way, the players would have the new opportunity of going into mythos situations openly and with full support, but there would still be an illegal clandestine angle as they'd inevitably have run-ins with their new bosses. The situation would progressively get worse until lines are drawn, and open war breaks out between DG and MJ. Jon Capps. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Bomias1@aol.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:03 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] A little help All right. So I've been working on inserting the Hastur Muthos (as depicted in Countdown) into my game. It's been working pretty well. The players are regularly spooked and shaken by what I have thrown at them. My problem is that I am currently blocked in my ideas for locales, and locales figure prominently in the presentation of the Vibe. So far I have used: a crumbling and abandoned Victorian-era sewage treatment plant, a crumbling and abandoned Victorian-era grand hotel, a renovated and topnotch Victorian-era hotel that operates with a Victorian historical theme (staff in period dress, period technology, decor, diversions and food used where possible, modern technology disguised as period), a crumbling and abandoned Victorian-era mental hospital, and a great many Victorian homes and apartment buildings in various states of repair. I would greatly appreciate any ideas that anyone might have to expand and diversify this effort. The Thug Whisperer "Back off Man! I'm a scientist." ------Peter Venkman _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:14 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] A little help On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 Bomias1@aol.com wrote: > All right. > > So I've been working on inserting the Hastur Muthos (as depicted in > Countdown) into my game. It's been working pretty well. The players are > regularly spooked and shaken by what I have thrown at them. My problem is > that I am currently blocked in my ideas for locales, and locales figure > prominently in the presentation of the Vibe. So far I have used: a crumbling > and abandoned Victorian-era sewage treatment plant, a crumbling and abandoned > Victorian-era grand hotel, a renovated and topnotch Victorian-era hotel that > operates with a Victorian historical theme (staff in period dress, period > technology, decor, diversions and food used where possible, modern technology > disguised as period), a crumbling and abandoned Victorian-era mental > hospital, and a great many Victorian homes and apartment buildings in various > states of repair. I would greatly appreciate any ideas that anyone might have > to expand and diversify this effort. How about: - a victorian era steam ship, whether a rotting hulk or a restored museum piece moored somewhere. - a modern metal hospital which has a wing showing including a black museum of old victorian devices - you could even have a character see this out of the corner of his eye as an actual bedlam-style ward, which, on investigation, is only a display. But didn't he hear the screaming too? - victorian sewers or river tunnels - a victorian era museum, like the natural history museum in London, whether with active research or not. - many university buildings were built in victorian times. - a vicorian library, all tall stacks and ladders. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:19 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] to hell in a bucket, part deux At 07:46 AM 9/27/2001 -0600, Alek James Hidell wrote: >And murdering a thousand or so Africans is always good foreign policy. If they're hacking people to death with machetes, yes I would say that is a wonderful foreign policy. Kinda like saying we really shouldn't have bombed Germany into the Stone Age during the Second World War because, hey fuck some six million Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and homos, we don't want to piss anyone off. >It's still just a global schoolyard, except the big kid has a machinegun. The big kid was also supposed to have good reason. And a pair of balls. We had neither, and that came from the top on down to the guy in the street who didn't care about averting holocausts in Africa and the Balkans, they only wanted to go to war if meant they could drive their SUV for less than $2/gallon. Anyways, the dream of international security is over. WTC drove the final nail in the coffin. ObDG: Not really one, so we should probably just agree to disagree. Best I can think of is that this is another reminder that DG can no longer operate as usual, because the world no longer does. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:58 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Cthulhu Cult in Centra Asia At 02:23 AM 9/27/2001 +0000, Charles Ripper wrote: >But Castro's remark is that he met the Masters of the Cult in the >'mountains of China.' There are a lot of mountains in China that are not >the Himalayas, and putting them in the Himalayas makes a bit of a >car-wreck of Mythos activity on the Tibetan Plateau. Tcho-tcho high >priests, Mi-go world headquarters, the Masters of the Cthulhu Cult and the >Plateau of Leng. This is not to mention the Yeti(Voormis), the Green Men, >or putting the K'n-yani in Shangri-La, which I proposed, the Theosophists, >the Shaefer Expedition, and many native myths that point toward magic in >the highlands, which could be tied to the Mythos. I know the Tibetan >Plateau is large, but this strikes me as too much. You're right, but let's break this down: Tcho-tcho high priests - I don't think there's anything in Mythos literature (fiction or gaming) on this. Mi-Go world headquarters - we know the Mi-Go were probably in the area at some point (based solely on their name, which could have nothing to do with the Tibetan "mi-go") and may still be there, but it may just be a small mostly exhausted mining colony. Masters of the Cthulhu Cult - I agree, we don't need them in Tibet. The Plateau of Leng - I think this is pretty firmly connected with Tibet. Yeti (Voormis) - like the Mi-Go, they might have a presence in Tibet, but nothing significant than a few specimens. The Green Men - Adam's chapter in CL:DG sets them firmly in Tibet. K'n-yani in Shangri-La - well, I just like this, nothing more to that. The Theosophists and Ernst Schafer are just icing on the cake or keys to unlocking these secrets. All in all, the only Mythos entities that are significantly in Tibet are the Plateau of Leng and the Green Men. Everything else can either be there in small numbers or not there at all. >This leads to all the Mythos conspiracies evolving into one big conspiracy >based in Tibet, and I for one don't want that. Neither do I. >This I can understand. Do you have any of these ideas developed, or are >you still brainstorming this section? What you see is pretty much what you get at this point. Metaplot for DG WWII has not been the priority as of late (this is quickly changing now that the framework is done). Two things at work here: I agree that any work for DG WWII in Tibet has to avoid becoming a Mythos hoe-down. I also think that Tibet is a pretty big place, and when we're talking about the Green Men, their presence can be confined to a tiny remote monastery. I think we can work around this, but all this should be kept in mind. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:33 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft Greetings. Let's do the good cop/bad cop thing here. SuperDave wrote > > The Karotechia, Skoptsi, Tiger Transit, > > and the Brotherhood of New Potential? See 'em and shoot 'em. > >Gotta find 'em, first. Or to be more rulesbook-oriented: Tradecraft is that part of the game that offers more opportunities for role playing. > > They're foes > > for cowboy operations, and if you're going to go and blow holes in people, > > there are better character templates than an intelligence officer. And there are better games than Call of Cthulhu, with or without the DG plug in. And there are indeed far better systems than Basic Roleplaying. Ever tried Feng Shui? >For several good examples of how tradecraft can be used effectively to >enhance roleplaying, get John Tynes' novel, _Rules of Engagement_. Yeah, buy a few copies of that, and check out some standard spy novels, too. You'll realize that 95% of the plot is concerned with getting close enough to the target to do what you have to do. Tradecraft, in other words. Of course, for James Bond tradecraft meant getting captured by the bad guy so that he'd reveal his plans to you, gloating.But thanks goodness you don't have to stick to that. >Some people do play "Delta Gunz," and that's fine if that's what you enjoy, >but I've always had the impression that the majority of people who post here >are not in favor of that style of play. NO. We members of the majority go to Delta Gunz players' houses and shoot through their windows with sawed-off shotguns, throw a few molotov cocktails on their lawn and ask them to rethink their attitude to the play. [notice that Pagan Publishing does not uphold the DG Lone Justice "Shoot the Trigger-happy geeks" club. They just turn a blind eye on our activities. And pay for gasoline. And maybe a bite afterwards] This said, I support the Man in Black's opinion about a much needed coverage of tradecraft (being notoriously tortuous, I'd order entries by tech level). What I'd like, thoughg, would be some kind of document/handbook focusing not only on the "how to crack a safe", but on the _roleplaying_ side of safecracking. This would also avoid the publisher a visit from the FBI for publishing terrorist-friendly informations. And this is it. Davide "Lone Justice" mana Shoots gunfondlers (using something they'd hate) Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David.Clements [David.Clements@astro.cf.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:31 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] to hell in a bucket, part deux On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Gil Trevizo wrote: > ObDG: Not really one, so we should probably just agree to disagree. Best > I can think of is that this is another reminder that DG can no longer > operate as usual, because the world no longer does. I'd actually put this the other way round... DG will continue to operate as usual, because this is business as normal for them. Its just that the rest of us have to catch up now. Dave _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:41 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] tradecraft No appreciation for tradecraft? This from someone who uses an alias of Lee Harvey Oswald? Perhaps not a sense of tradecraft, but at least a flair for the dramatic. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alek James Hidell" _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gatten, Marshall [marshall@fusionone.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:43 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? >> And someone might come up with the idea of >> reactivating this organisation, >> ending its status of an illegal conspiracy. >i´m not sure if showing up to say: >have no fear. Delta green didn´t disappear in 1969. >would be such a great idea. It all depends on who your friendlies are and how good your spin doctors are. This time the spin doctors are going to spin for the higher-ups, not for the media. I'm sure Alphonse would love to get official again. He would probably approach somebody high up who already knows about DG and talk with them about the best way to make it happen. Then that person could brief other people on the idea as if it hasn't already happened. It could be mentioned that some of the original members are still around and that building up membership is something they've done before and doing it again shouldn't be too hard. Once the idea of rebuilding is approved, start "recruiting". Over the next year or so bring one cell at a time into official status. (Or one cell member at a time.) Use your spin doctors to make sure it looks like you are recruiting people who have never been associated with the group before but who have the proper kinds of experience. For an on-going DG campaign, now would be a great time to do this if you wanted to. For the game that I'm going to be starting I want to start off with the illegal conspiracy angle because it's much more of a hook. By the time I'd be ready to make it all official WTC will be old news and it won't make sense anymore. But I'd love to hear about how anybody who goes through with it does it. Marshall From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:43 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] A little help Greetings.... > So I've been working on inserting the Hastur Muthos (as depicted in >Countdown) into my game. It's been working pretty well. The players are >regularly spooked and shaken by what I have thrown at them. My problem is >that I am currently blocked in my ideas for locales, and locales figure >prominently in the presentation of the Vibe. So far I have used: a crumbling >and abandoned Victorian-era sewage treatment plant, a crumbling and abandoned >Victorian-era grand hotel, a renovated and topnotch Victorian-era hotel that >operates with a Victorian historical theme (staff in period dress, period >technology, decor, diversions and food used where possible, modern technology >disguised as period), a crumbling and abandoned Victorian-era mental >hospital, and a great many Victorian homes and apartment buildings in various >states of repair. I would greatly appreciate any ideas that anyone might have >to expand and diversify this effort. Are you playing Cthulhu by Gaslight? Because - sorry - I do not see otherwise the reason for this proliferation of Victoriana. Sure, continuity and thematic whatever, yes, but you'll come to a point in which your players will simply nuke anything built before 1901, just to be on the safe side. Let's try and look in the other direction. David Clemens already mentioned modern buildings. What about those weird Lloyd-Wright-esque buildings that popped up about the landscape in the '50s and '60s? New definitions of space, new liaison between inside and outside.... Just what the doctor ordered. Imagine Carcosa slowly seeping into a suburban model neighborhood - ennui and alienation among houses that all look exactly the same..... Ten thousand self-contained Carcosas, one in each living-room. I'll post more as new ideas come to me. Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gatten, Marshall [marshall@fusionone.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:56 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] tradecraft >How much is actual espionage tradecraft, as currently practiced in what >is ostensibly peacetime, used in a Delta Green game? I for one would love a primer on this stuff. When other players in my game told me about an eavesdropping device that consisted of a laser bouncing off the outside of a window and measuring it's vibrations and turning them back into sound I was amazed. Since then I found out that this kind of thing is pretty common. Being the ordinary joe that I am, it had never even occurred to me that you could use a group of five or ten cars to tail a suspect, trading off constantly to avoid being made. Playing DG for a couple years now I've realized how incredibly ignorant I have always been of tradecraft stuff. Playing it has taught me a lot, and now I'm sure I know more than the average man-on-the-street, but I'm also pretty sure I don't know enough to be a successful agent in RL. These are things that they don't teach you in school. Yet intelligence officers all over the world know them well. That means that when you become a CIA agent or and FBI agent or a whatever agent, they obviously train you on it. I'd love to get my hands on some of those training manuals. (Anybody have a source?) I can easily picture a book with a name like "DG: Tradecraft" that has been made to look like a training manual. If done just right, it could even be used as a handout. "Welcome to the cell, agent Wizzy. Here's a book you should read before you get us all killed." Such a book would appear to have been compiled by A Cell, and would look like an official government book since a newly recruited agent is unlikely to know that DG is anything but an official government organization. Proper "Delta Green Clearance Only" marks and all that stuff. Hmmmmmmmmm....... I just had a thought........ There appears to be a modus operandi around here to get books made: A group splinters off into a separate mailing list, generates oodles of info, and eventually tries to convince Pagan to publish a book on it. Anybody interested in a Tradecraft list? I can imagine that such a list might attract some people from outside the DG community who could add valuable info and enjoy sharing what we've got. We might be able to get enough stuff to really make it happen. Any takers? Marshall From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 11:02 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] tradecraft Aright, so this got me out of my tree... While I have been known to fondle more than one gun (ummm... what luscious bluing you have!) one interesting role playing aspect can be in getting the guns to fondle. CDC investigators, CIA agents, Friendlies, even FBI agents to some extent just don't normally have access to Ah-nold levels of firepower. While a kindly keeper could just let the players find the Green Box from Hell (complete with automated voice telling them to shut the door *snicker*) it's much more fun to make them work for it. A complete scenario could be made in just acquiring MP5's, M-16's, et. al. ... with SAN losses for any innocents hurt, continuing investigations hounding the players, etc. Besides, it might be a way to drag a gunfondler into role playing... -----Original Message----- From: Davide Mana [mailto:doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 11:33 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft Davide "Lone Justice" mana Shoots gunfondlers (using something they'd hate) Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/