From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:33 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft Greetings. It's late at night and I feel nasty. Alek wrote >How do I say this without starting a pissing contest? I have been...what's >the term? lurking...around this this for the better part of the last three >years, watching. It's quite voyeuristic, actually. I don't want to start a >fight over this, because it's not worth it and we all have better things to >do, so I'll leave this topic with this: I know of what I speak. But you don't know what a Green Box is (you said that). Weird, for someone that's been here three years. So - if you do not have a good reply to a good objection, maybe conceding that your neighbor has a good point might be better than empty posturing. Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 5:55 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Rhino Teams On 27 September 2001, david wienecke wrote: >I have just introduced the Delta Green "Rhino Teams" to our campaign. I >figure >why should the military be the only one to play with the big toys. Generally (IMO) because they have the training, and because relatively few local police departments, or even small Federal agencies, can afford their own self-propelled howitzers or helicopter gunships. >After the cell has beat >its collective skull against the bunker where (fill in the blank)'s high >priest has buried himself for a few weeks, call in the Rhino Team and start >fine tuning your best dis-information techniques on a meteor strike story. >When it's over there is nothing left but a two story deep glassine crater. Which will admittedly resolve the immediate problem very thoroughly! However, experience has proven that, after the bunker and its occupants are totally atomized, it can be a little tough to find information in on where the High Priest's buddies are hiding, and who was bankrolling his cult, but these things happen...:) Not that there isn't a place for firepower (I was the one who was joking months ago about using a firing squad of 122 mm howitzers on Slobo, ala Baron Munchausen), and that bunkers that need to be totally atomized shouldn't be, but sometimes the op can be accomplished through means that leaves intel that can lead your cell on to the next link in the chain! :) As for the meteor strike theory... You can probably only use it a couple of times, before the astronomers begin to get worried! There is precedent, though -- I once read of a house that got hit by a pebble-sized meteorite (which inspired part of the background of one of my characters, who had a similar problem while he was attending Annapolis), and a parked car in New York (of course!) was reportedly struck by a small meteorite! > >Equipment selection for the Rhino team we used reads something like this: >M16 >w/M203 attached, M60, LAW missiles, 60mm mortar Probably the version developed in the 1950s (?) for US airborne troops. It had no bipod, but a curved baseplate -- the idea was for the gunner to ground the baseplate, and adjust aim and elevation by hand! For DG purposes, you'll want to carry a mix of HE Frag, Willie Pete, and HC Smoke rounds... , man portable flame throwers, >chemical agent projectors, grenades of every flavor, claymore mines (my >personal fav) Remember: a. FRONT TOWARD ENEMY b. If you can't remember which direction the Claymore is pointed, it is pointed back at your position. Check on this _before_ you pick up the clicker! >and, in the spirit of world wide harmony, the international >versions of this equipment. Per man? Not that they necessarily wouldn't be able to carry all this stuff -- men who train with SpecOps, or even "merely" Airborne, become accustomed to humping rucks of truly astonishing size and weight. (In fact, depending on your chemical agents, the team might have to tote along full MOPP gear, plus a chemical agent detector in the squad load... And knives -- every member of the squad should carry at least four, not counting the bayonet for the M-16 (assuming you can safely fit the bayonet on its lug with the M203 attached)... Plus you'll want SINGCARS radios for contact with your fire support...) I would suggest each Rhino team be assigned an EM-50 Urban Assault Vehicle as a squad vehicle! :) It's just that one of these men is probably going to get wasted by a cultist with a Thompson or a sledgehammer, while he's figuring out which weapon to select! Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com "What do you mean I'm encouraging him?" (At least I didn't include links to the webpages describing the above equipment...):) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:06 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft It is always possible to have missed finding out what a Green Box is. People do miss things, and forget them. It could also be that the topic of a Green Box hasn't come up often, or isn't that interesting. Four perfectly plausible reasons why a person might not know what a Green Box is. > But you don't know what a Green Box is (you said that). > Weird, for someone that's been here three years. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:15 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft RE: [DG] tradecraft"You're dealing with a real-world definition of tradecraft and the rest of the gaming world is talking about a rules abstraction of tradecraft. There is no such skill in DG as "Reconnaissance and pretty simple law enforcement-type investigation" because that phrase won't fit on a character sheet. Instead, it falls under Tradecraft - a much shorter word that means oh-so-much-more in this context. If you need to know what is being said in a room across the street and you haven't been invited to the party and are likely to be shot if you are discovered then, in the Delta Green gaming universe, you employ Tradecraft. Knowing how such eavesdropping is done is important in some cases of role-playing. Knowing that planting a bug in the room isn't always necessary because you might be able to bounce a laser off the window and listen to the vibrations can mean the difference between character death and Tcho-Tcho death." An excellent point, one that, frankly, had not occurred to me when I originally posted about tradecraft. Still, would said basket of skills be only available from a CIA officer? "Not when you speak of most of the members of this list. I doubt that you know more than a couple personally, so you might wanna reserve judgment on their gaming maturity until you've gamed with a few of 'em." Don't know any of 'em personally, and can't see how that's relevant here. What I'm driving at is this: any game, be it baseball, poker, or Delta Green is played to entertain...to have fun and a good time, and hopefully forget what a shitty place the world can be for a while. It has been my experience that the majority of gamers are more entertained by blowing stuff up and gunfights than by puzzling out problems. This is role playing gamers anywhere, of which the DGML is a representative sample. You can get any type here, and I've seen a lot of types in those three years. If the DGML is a representative sample of the role playing game community as a whole, then it seems reasonably safe to say that the majority of people who are aware of and peruse the DGML (those who post are not all who read; just ask Nerva Vels) prefer action to problem solving. Not all, but most. Does that make any sense at all, or am I talking to myself? From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:22 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft You know, in those three years, I've seen some sorry sods get run off the DGML for things like this, so, should further commentary be desired, lets go off list, alright? "> Don't get me wrong, Alek, but even though there is some gunfondling supreme on > this list - and since you lurked for some time, you should know my opinion about > the 'necessity' of gunfondling -, most of this list's members do have more > sophisticated and mature view on DG." I never said they didn't (or don't remember saying so; sorry), but as I just explained to Marshal Gatten: 1) games - all games - are played to entertain 2) Delta Green is a game 3) in my experience, role playing gamers are more entertained by action and carnage than problems solving. Not ALL, but MOST. 4) the DGML is a representative sample of the role playing game community as a whole, so, in broad strokes, what applies to one applies to the other 5) thus, it seems logical that people here, just like RP gamers everywhere, will be more entertained by action than by problem solving... ...even though we all come from the Call of Cthulhu tradition that places a premium on brain power. " And to be honest, I consider saying "I know of what I speak" to be a rather > cheap and > unfair way of ending an discussion." And how should I end it, hmm? Bend over and grease up so the Man In Black and Womack can aim for penetration? No thanks. No sane human being gives either one an inch of space _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gatten, Marshall [marshall@fusionone.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:00 PM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] tradecraft >An excellent point, one that, frankly, had not occurred to me >when I originally posted about tradecraft. Still, would said >basket of skills be only available from a CIA officer? Where did the CIA officer come from? We're talking tradecraft as used in DG by any agent crafting the trade, so to speak. It is not available only to CIA agents. I'm not a CIA agent, but thanks to my exposure to DG, a DG character of me would have a few more points in tradecraft than an average person. That doesn't make me CIA, it simply means that I know a small amount of the skill. >This is role playing gamers anywhere, of which the DGML is a >representative sample. If the DGML is a representative >sample of the role playing game community as a whole, then ... And this is where your logic is broken. DGML is not representative of the RP community as a whole. It isn't even a proper representative sample of DG players as a whole. Most DG players are not on this list. What this list represents is that group of DG players who take the game seriously enough to actively seek out more information and input to improve their own games by including the views of others, and who can keep a smile on their face while being flamed by the wondrous MIB the whole time. A group of people like that is not going to include very many gamers who play to blow things up. It's going to include people who think a lot about their game and take it to another level of maturity. It's going to be made up of a very different kind of people than a random sampling of RPG players everywhere. And before you tell me I'm being elitist, I'm not. I'm not saying that games where you blow everything up and ask questions later are any better or worse than the games run by people on this list. I'm simply saying that this list doesn't attract the players of those games. For that matter, Call of Cthulhu itself is unusual in that it doesn't encourage the players to shoot at things first. Characters who do are usually very short lived because they tend to get devoured by creatures who don't care if you put a hole in them. CoC put an emphasis on research and investigative work. That's why characters are called investigators and why the most called upon roll in most CoC games is the Library Use roll instead of the Howitzer roll. Marshall From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:14 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: IMMINENT DOMAIN, was Re: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? From: Gatten, Marshall >> And someone might come up with the idea of >> reactivating this organisation, >> ending its status of an illegal conspiracy. I'd say that the only way this would occur is if Delta Green could provide solid evidence to the Office of Homeland Security that terrorism was at least partially sponsored by occult groups and religious cults. The necessity of a Psychological Warfare Operations arm to break apart their bizarre theology would become clear. You'd require proof that groups like the Karotechia, The Black Brotherhood, and the Cult of Trancendance were working together. Gathering this intelligence would be A-Cell's short term goal, every Cell and every Friendly not engaged in active operations would be mobilized to obtain it...somehow. It would be the largest Delta Green operation since SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS. The actual operations portion of the new Delta Green's portfolio would be covered much like in the OSS days, with the old boy network of people "in-the-know" supporting Field Agents working under the PSYOPS cover of the OHS. The Office of Homeland Security seems to have two primary functions: 1) DAMAGE CONTROL: Coordinating a national plan for Civil Defense response to terrorist activity, this used to be under the FEMA umbrella and could lead to a struggle with Majestic-12; and 2) INTELLIGENCE: To serve as a clearinghouse for all terrorist related information gathered by the United States. They would be an intelligence consumer, not a producer. This is currently handled by the National Security Council, and we'll probably see a lot of old NSC faces at OHS, along with some terrorism analysts and other research grunts from the FBI, NSA, CIA, DIA, etc etc. DG's current network of friendlies and Agents would serve as the cadre that the new network would be built upon. Career advancement now becomes increasingly serious for all Delta Green personnel, the new offical status must be obtained and subsequently protected. Putting DG Friendlies into high places and key positions throughout the administration would be A-Cell's long term goal. A more intermediate goal would be to seed OHS with Delta Green friendlies to lay the groundwork for a return to official status. This would be done by providing a steady stream of reports on terrorist and criminal activities committed by fringe religious groups throughout the world. Delta Green and it's allies undoubtedly have reams upon reams of files like this. This is where PISCES (the Shan have no love for rival Mythos Cults), and GRU-SV8 come in. It may be necessary to betray Majestic to the Russians in exchange for access to their files. This entails significant risk that will come back to haunt DG in the very near future. The return to officialdom can transform Delta Green into a modern day political game, probably best suited to Ars Majica troupe style play: a group of high-ranking officials closely affiliated with the OHS, one group of ass-kicking, name-taking Shooters from a variety of places loosely affiliated with the OHS, and throw in a few part-time NPC's like scientists and techno-geeks. Watch "The West Wing" for details on how the high-level portion might be accomplished. The basic framework for Delta Green now is that the high-ranking folks and technical support guys are NPC friendlies, and the Players control one Cell. I get vague hints and occasional flashes that Pagan's house campaign fits a little more along the troupe model. What with A-Cell being an avatar for Tynes and Glancy and maybe a cross-dressing Detwiller... The problems and obstacles to what I'm going to call OPERATION: IMMINENT DOMAIN are many and varied. If a Cell goes cowboy and creates some sort of Waco-esque debacle, it could easily shut everything down, especially in the early stages of intelligence gathering. Majestic will also be jockeying for position. Gavin Ross and Adolph Lepus seem to see the need for an outlaw outfit like Delta Green, although a more official foil for their rivals on the Steering Committee might be more useful to them. They must be convinced that official status for Delta Green will suit their goals. MJ-3 as a unlikely ally could prove instrumental in the gradual leveraging of the OHS towards anti-mythos activity. Their role would be to minimize the influence of the OUTLOOK group while Delta Green manipulates a disasterous event to shatter the OUTLOOK Group's political credibility with the Majestic Steering Comittee. The OUTLOOK group might not be shut down entirely because of this. An OUTLOOK Group viewed as a political liability or security hazard could be removed from Majestic's influence and placed under the new OHS heirarchy (and thus Delta Green). The key here is leadership. Strysik and Baker must be removed, and Perov and Yrjo must be convinced of the need to oppose the Mythos, or kicked to the curb. If Perov and or Yrjo can be recruited as a DG friendly, then OUTLOOK's stress cascade reactions can be used against mythos cults instead of the Delta Green cell structure. If a DG Friendly can be put in their place, then their pointless sadistic simulations will cease AND Delta Green gets to test OUTLOOK's Stress Cascade against maybe... the Cult of Transcendence. In conclusion, the WTC attack provides Delta Green a huge opportunity to expand it's resources and to engage all it's enemies on an scale not seen since World War 2. It offers an excellent segueway between EMERALD HAMMER (downfall of the Karotechia) and THE GREY WAR (downfall of Majestic). The transformation into a political game played at the highest levels brings Delta Green into new roleplaying territory, sure to bring even more Origins Awards to Pagan Publishing, thus ensuring that they will always have a ready supply of doorstops and paperweights. The 21st Century Delta Green could be the reason why the ENDTIMES are delayed until well past 2030, if Pagan ever gets around to publishing it at all... The Man in Black is : selling official Delta Green Doorstops on eBay. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [The 7th Chemical] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David Rodemaker [dar@horusinc.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:26 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] tradecraft > " And to be honest, I consider saying "I know of what I speak" to be a > rather > > cheap and > > unfair way of ending an discussion." > > And how should I end it, hmm? Bend over and grease up so the Man In Black > and Womack can aim for penetration? No thanks. No sane human being gives > either one an inch of space Well... To be honest, if you want to attempt to have the last word then post your reply directly to the sender. This way you can continue your 'discussion' *AND* not clutter up the list. It's a technique that I have used well in many places, this list included, but does need a tad bit more than an instinctive "Reply" response. David _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Julian Breen [jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:19 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] A little help > > So I've been working on inserting the Hastur Muthos (as depicted in >Countdown) into my game. It's been working pretty well. The players are >regularly spooked and shaken by what I have thrown at them. My problem is >that I am currently blocked in my ideas for locales, Railway carriages, deserted stations Hansom cabs (modern day tourist ones operate in many parks) Boating lakes Gentlemen's Clubs Public Schools Work Houses/Doss Houses Opium Dens Army Barracks Colonial settings with any of the above -- Julian Breen _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of david wienecke [dwienecke@usa.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:21 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [Re: [DG] Rhino Teams] >"Michael Layne" >>and, in the spirit of world wide harmony, the international >>versions of this equipment. >Per man? AAAAACK No! I would not afflict it on anyone to carry that much junk, even a handful of jar-heads. The actual team members carried only 2 heavy weapons between the lot of them, one flamethrower and a FN SAW Machinegun. The remainder were equipped with various makes of personal weapons. Using multi-national sanitized equipment should help confuse things when we lose someone (or everyone). If I equip the group US stars and bars anyone checking out the event will start poking into our military connections. By the by the particulars on the use was a series of tunnels filled with something icky. The entire cell was wiped with the exception of a lone friendly biologist (NPC). Switching the three deaders to Rhino members gave them a chance to get back at the Goo (not G.O.O. just the slimy, black drippy stuff) It gave them a chance to blow off steam. A change of pace from the one clue, two clue, three clue, exorcism style play. > a. FRONT TOWARD ENEMY > b. If you can't remember which direction the Claymore is pointed, >it is pointed back at your position. Check on this _before_ you pick >up the clicker! Right, the inny curvy side or the outy curvy side? (click BOOM!) Time to re-decorate Dave W. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of CelticHound [celtichound@foobox.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:21 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft Marshall wrote:: > We actually had a toilet fondling thread here > a while back (shudder!). Does that mean that > we're a bunch of compulsive flushers? Now we're getting on to more important stuff! Did the thread resolve the burning (if you've eaten the hottest dish on the menu, anyway) issue of putting the lid and seat down? I've gotta find this one in the archives! [Goes rummaging.] Well, that was a dissapointment. It quickly degenerated into how to summon an "excremental" (poop demon) and some monkey posturing about abortion. I was hoping for a reasoned debate about the merits of a Kohler K-3435-X San Martine Peacekeeper One-Piece compared with the products of other armament - err, I mean plumbing - manufacturers. And what about the relative utility of the PowerLite and RimJet systems? -- CH "Let's not talk about splash damage until you've seen me go to the toilet." _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:25 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft RE: [DG] tradecraft"Where did the CIA officer come from?" I've been talking about the CIA as a PC all along. "And this is where your logic is broken. DGML is not representative of the RP community as a whole." Well, we'll have to disagree here, because IMHO, it is. "What this list represents is that group of DG players who take the game seriously enough to actively seek out more information and input to improve their own games by including the views of others, and who can keep a smile on their face while being flamed by the wondrous MIB the whole time." The DGML is my only contact with the game, because I don't have a play group where I am, despite some strenuous effort. I smile when I have a hernia exam, and it doesn't mean I like it. All this shit I've gotten into today SEEMS to come from people who take DG too seriously. I know I'm going to get flamed for that, but I calls 'em the way I sees 'em. "A group of people like that is not going to include very many gamers who play to blow things up. It's going to include people who think a lot about their game and take it to another level of maturity." I haven't seen a lot of maturity today, but then I'm told that's my fault. Actually, the most successful RPG group I ever ran was in a CoC game where the PCs investigated as they are supposed to do so they knew the best stuff to blow up, and it was very mature and cerebral. "It's going to be made up of a very different kind of people than a random sampling of RPG players everywhere. And before you tell me I'm being elitist, I'm not. I'm not saying that games where you blow everything up and ask questions later are any better or worse than the games run by people on this list. I'm simply saying that this list doesn't attract the players of those games." I'd qualify your statement by saying that it doesn't attract a lot of them, but there are some here. Now, this is probably my last post, because no one's probably going to read my posts anymore, regardless of how many I post. So, if anyone gives a shit, I'll still be here, watching as always, but exercising the better part of valor. The DGML is a lot of fun, and please, don't let me or those who have lost their patience with me ruin it for you. From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:52 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Deep Space 1 On 26 September 2001, Glove Cleaner "Andy Robertson" wrote: > >http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/ > >Comet pictures, very cool Deep Space 1... Well, we've got the next three centuries or so to build the next eight!:) Just as long as none of the comet pictures show "bearing constant, range decreasing"! One really good-sized comet strike would totally end the problems in Afganistan... and on most of the rest of the Earth... (No, I'm not thinking of Tungushka -- more of "Lucifer's Hammer"... although there was recently an interesting novel ("Dead Hand", by Howard Coyle) involving a Tungushka-sized impact threatening to accidentally activate a Cold War Russian "doomsday weapon"!) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:21 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? On 27 September 2001, "Michael Layne" wrote: > Would be interesting to have a HEMTT (Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical >Truck, or "Hemitt", as it is generally called) >(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/hemtt.htm) Actually the URL is http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/hmett.htm (FWIW, I gave the correct abbreviation; they misspelled it in their URL!):) The webpage on the HEMTT gives a link to Oshkosh, which makes them, and several other interesting big trucks! (Oops! Sorry! Truckfondling!):) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:44 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Cthulhu Cult in Centra Asia Castro met the Masters of the Cthulhu Cult in China? No wonder the CIA wanted his beard. Ba dum ching. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 9:55 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] A little help ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davide Mana" > Imagine Carcosa slowly seeping into a suburban model neighborhood - ennui > and alienation among houses that all look exactly the same..... > Ten thousand self-contained Carcosas, one in each living-room. Levittown! Oh yeah. http://tigger.uic.edu/~pbhales/Levittown.html http://www.levittownhistoricalsociety.org/index2.htm http://www.pathfinder.com/photo/archive/places/suburbs.htm Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:32 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The End of the Conspiracy? It should be remembered that the majority of active DG agents are government agents during their day jobs. Many of them could get involved with the new improved official DG as part of that job. DG (the conspiracy) could find themselves in the position of funneling information to the official version to get some jobs done that were beyond the resources of the conspiracy. PARIAH could find himself the target of audits and search warrants and surveillance a bit more annoying than ever before. Connections between Muslim extremists and a base in South America ("Damn, that guy looks like Otto "Scarface" Skorzeny. I thought he was dead.") might get more attention than before. Political contributions from Whole Earth Enterprises could be tracked and scrutinized. The mysterious owner is a gentleman of Mideastern background after all. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:56 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alek James Hidell" > "Unless you are playing Mission Impossible with the exposition opening > > including all pertinent files and intel, the Investigators are going to > have > > to do a little investigating. That's tradecraft." > > That's FBI/ police investigation, not espionage tradecraft. After said > sorts of investigation has found the bad guys, then espionage tradecraft > comes in. When you aren't the FBI and therefore don't have access to FBI resources, all of that investigating is indeed tradecraft. DG is a conspiracy, therefore they don't get to farm out the investigation to the Feds. Do you have the sourcebook? > See above. Reconnaissance and pretty simple law enforcement-type > investigation would actually yield that sort of information better than > espionage tradecraft. See above. That isn't an option to Delta Green. Have you read the sourcebook? The archives? The Ice Cave? > Maybe I'm not getting my point across. That you have a sketchy understanding of what the game is about? No, you made that abundantly clear. > The tradecraft I'm speaking of is the mechanism by which you find this information out. Which is why I used that as an example. > I apologize for not > being clearer in my original posting. Espionage tradecraft is less about > remaining invisible while learning things and more about learningthem in the > first place. No, that's analysis. > But the whole thing is moot, because the agencies who practice > this craft cannot legally be active on US soil, and, even if a CIA > operations officer were in on a DG operation, it could only be on foreign > soil, because that's where he is. There are (officially) no CIA operations > officers doing anything other than holidaying on US soil while active > employees of the Company. They simply aren't physically present. Have you read the sourcebook? You know, the one that says Delta Green on the cover? > > Tradecraft is what you use to make or spot a Friendly. > Human resources management. No espionage tradecraft. So you haven't read any Le Carre either. > "Tradecraft is what you use to set up a Green Box." > I have no idea what that is, so I'll give it to you. No, your homework is to go to the Ice Cave. Or go to a nearby search engine and type "Green Box." > Tradecraft is what you use to pass hardcopy > > or cash to a team member when you suspect you are under surveillance. > Not really. You or I could run a dead drop, and I'll wager you have as > little espionage training as I do. I can leave something at a specific location. Doing it while under surveillance (as in my example) is tradecraft. > > Tradecraft is what you use to follow someone undetected, or to shake a > tail > > you've picked up. > A police officer could do so just as easily, perhaps better. Not without training in tradecraft. "A" policemean? Only on TV. > > See 'em and shoot 'em? Well, yeah, that's pretty much what happens *at > the > > end*, but there's supposed to be some role-playing along the way. That's > why > > the player characters are called Investigators in CoC. > > Look at 99% of the folks who post here, especially some of the more vocal > ones. Are they likely to have that much patience? Yes. And they do their homework. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 11:49 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] A little help On 27 September 2001 (_not_ 27 September 1901!) "David.Clements" powered up his steam-powered Babbage Difference Engine, and typed: >How about: > >- a victorian era steam ship, whether a rotting hulk or a restored museum >piece moored somewhere. Something like HMS Warrior (http://www.hmswarrior.org), the first ironclad steam warship? No, the USS "Monitor" and the CSS "Virginia" (formerly the USS "Merrimack") were not the first -- they were simply the first to see combat. Unlike the turreted "Monitor", the "Warrior" had a broadside battery of guns in what amounted to an armored box -- together with sails backing up her steam engines, a more traditional but still rather groundbreaking approach to ironclad warships! (The ends of the armored section were a potential weak point, and it's possible a couple of monitors could have fought her to a standstill with proper maneuvering, but they would have definitely had their hands full, and luckily nobody ever really had to find out for sure...) She was an actual seagoing armored warship, unlike the Civil War monitors, which were good in littorial warfare, but ill-suited for long voyages in rough water. While the "Monitor" sank during a gale within a year of her famous battle, and the "Virginia" was destroyed to keep her out of Union hands, "Warrior" survives, moored as a museum ship at Portsmouth, UK. Several other webpages on her exist, most with pictures, both overall and belowdecks, such as http://www.flagship.org.uk/HMSWarrior1860.htm. A "virtual tour" by St. Vincent College (http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Warrior/index2.html) "HMS Warrior -- Black Snake Among the Rabbits" (http://wtj.com/articles/warrior/) "HMS Warrior at Portsmouth" (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mbarker/warrior.htm) "World Battleships -- Warrior" (http://worldbattleships.homestead.com/WARRIOR.html) And, if you want to build your own -- though slightly smaller than the original, this book from Amazon.com tells how to make a working model: (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidios/ASIN/1557500983/1043923054-2717506) (Gee, I hope I typed all those numbers in correctly with no transpositions...):) Dunno why folks think the Big H likes all this Victorian stuff so much! Gee, what did he do before Victoria was on the throne??:) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Alek James Hidell [aj_hide11@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 11:36 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft "When you aren't the FBI and therefore don't have access to FBI resources, all of that investigating is indeed tradecraft. DG is a conspiracy, therefore they don't get to farm out the investigation to the Feds. Do you have the sourcebook?" Which sourcebook do you mean? I have the original Delta Green sourcebook, and I have Countdown, but I can't find any of the others to buy. "See above. That isn't an option to Delta Green." Isn't there someone the conspiracy has access to that could conduct a full-on, professional-type investigation? "Have you read the sourcebook? The archives?" My computer won't let me access the archives for some reason. "The Ice Cave?" I can't read the Ice Cave. I'm physically unable to do it. The last time I tried, I actually fell asleep on my keyboard. I'm sorry everyone, but I can't do it. "That you have a sketchy understanding of what the game is about? No, you made that abundantly clear." That this is said assures me that I'm not getting my point across. I hope I understand as well as anyione can after reading the two major sourcebooks and this list. I know my interpretation is different, but I'm confident I've got the mechanics down. "No, that's analysis." Groan... alright. According to the CIA website (URL available on request), analysis is the processing and interpretation of information. It is a passive process in that it receives information from others. According to "the Spy Book" by Normal Palomar and Thomas Allen (Random House, 1998, ISBN 0-679-42514-4) tradecraft is "espionage tricks and techniques that substantiate the view of practitioners that their work is a skilled occupation and craft...includ(ing) surveillance and running agents." Tradecraft is about finding, recruiting, and running agents, not investigations, except as you would run an agent to investigate something. Does that help? I can provide more information. "Have you read the sourcebook? You know, the one that says Delta Green on the cover?" Yes. Where does it say how to get a foreign posted operations officer involved in a domestic action? All of the foes provided by the book, except for the Karotechia, are based on US soil: the Fate, the Skoptsi, Tiger Transit, the Brotherhood of New Potential. No active operations officer - the primary practitioner of tradecraft - could knock heads ewith them on domestic soil. Conversely, it would be more of the military characters who could work with a foreign posted operations officer. "So you haven't read any Le Carre either." No, but I guess I should. I can't get into his books. "No, your homework is to go to the Ice Cave. Or go to a nearby search engine and type "Green Box." Please see my comments about the Ice cave above. If I do this search, and learn about gardening, that would be a shame. "Not without training in tradecraft. "A" policemean? Only on TV." Okay then what was the RCMP teaching me? _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 12:19 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] A little help >Thanks! That's just what I was looking for. (Very good stuff snipped for brevity) >My players freaked out. > >It was beautiful. (That is was, and thank you for sharing with us, Thug! : ) (Now... where does it go from there?) J. -- CAMPUS CRUSADE FOR CTHULHU -- Dubai, United Arab Emirates /-----------/---\-----------\ ------------|O O|------------ ------------\VAV/------------ -------------I I------------- "and who knows what depths lay in limitless sand; or what horrors are leashed by a great ebon hand?" - Ialdaloboth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of talaphid [isa@zerg.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 12:31 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft > Groan... alright. According to the CIA website (URL available on request), > analysis is the processing and interpretation of information. It is a CIA website, URL on request? That's got to be some in joke my late self missed. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 12:43 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davide Mana" > Davide "Lone Justice" mana > Shoots gunfondlers > (using something they'd hate) > Torino, Italy No no no. Never shoot a gunfondler, then they get to go to Gunhalla. Take them out with a pointed stick so they'll spend all eternity checking GURPS tables on everything *except* guns for accuracy. The horror. The horror. Mark McFadden This is what you call a humor Litmus test. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Don Fougere [bolide@mars.ark.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 12:51 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Rhino Teams And... For those pyros on your Rhino team, I can whole heartedly recommend such fine, portable, heavy weapons as: M202A1 Flame Weapon (US) - Shoulder launched 4 barrel weapon, as seen in the movie "Commando" with 'Ah-nold' and the RPO and RPO-A (RU) - in GURPS terms - located at http://www.helsinki.fi/~shyypia/tl7desc4.htm Cheers, Don Fougere Image Sleuth - Analytical Imaging Solutions Lazo, B.C. bolide@mars.ark.com SNIP> and TH3 > Thermit incindeary grenades. (The US Army >apparently doesn't use flame > throwers any more -- I heard that some >international agreement recently > outlawed them.) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 12:47 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] (WTC) Well, at least someone can laugh! Remember when some of us were wondering how to deal with this? All I can say is, thank goddess for the Onion http://www.theonion.com/ J. ps: 'talking to your child' is priceless. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:02 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft echkard pointed out: >Oh, boy. Roleplaying is about telling a good story. A good use of >"Tradecraft" >is helpful, as the almighty Lizard King has already tried to explain to >you. A >tradecraft-overkill will ruin a gaming session as much as a hardware- or >warfare-overkill. which is right on the money. What some folks who've never done it - or whose only study on the subject is stuff like 007 movies and Tom Clancy books - might not be aware of is that while being in espionage might be dangerous and occasionally exciting... the exact, common-sense methods of pulling it off are long and boring. It's like computer hacking, in a way. Maybe the payoff is fantastic, but the process to get anywhere isn't nearly as neat-o-keen as you'd see in most movies. They don't show you the endless sessions of dumpster-diving for old, shredded papers to find root passwords and the like, or the hours of just sitting there, trying to make sense out of oodles and oodles of code while getting constantly jerked out of the system... BooOooOoOoOoOoOoooOring! This is why Delta Green is so good - you can spruce up the boring hum-drum of long-term surveilance, tracking and going over wire-tap logs ("well?" "Well what?" "What do you mean 'well what'?" (pause) "Well?") with creepy, otherworldly stuff that should confound and kill your agents like mice caught in the insinkerator. A straight-up, honest to goodness game on espionage would most likely only sell to die-hard accuracy junkies. Everyone else is going to go for the escapist, less-realistic stuff. J. -- CAMPUS CRUSADE FOR CTHULHU -- Dubai, United Arab Emirates /-----------/---\-----------\ ------------|O O|------------ ------------\VAV/------------ -------------I I------------- "and who knows what depths lay in limitless sand; or what horrors are leashed by a great ebon hand?" - Ialdaloboth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:27 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] tradecraft > > And how should I end it, hmm? Bend over and grease up so the Man In >Black > > and Womack can aim for penetration? oooo-OOOOOO!!! Hot gay sex, right here on the DGML! In all seriousness, though - if you want to drop a subject, just drop it. It's a rare cat who continues to play with the bird when it's stopped moving. Hmm. That's probably not a good analogy. Never mind. J. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:41 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft >Marshall wrote:: > > > We actually had a toilet fondling thread here > > a while back (shudder!). Does that mean that > > we're a bunch of compulsive flushers? No - I think it just means we're all full of shit ; ) J. ps: sorry... someone HAD to say it. Of course, it had to be me.. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Charles Ripper [yeroshka7@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 2:03 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Cthulhu Cult in Centra Asia(was Re: [DG] Teaming up with Evil) >From: "The Man in Black" > >In Cthulhu Live: Lost Souls, the Cthulhu Cult's history is described in >great detail. In 1904, a schism occured in the European Cult of Cthulhu >when the Black Brotherhood, angered over the Western Cult's lopsided >arrangement with the Eastern Monks of Cthulhu, split from the main group >in a short bloody war of sorcery. This conflict resulted in a crippled >Black Brotherhood and an entirely new and much more ruthless regime of >Western Priests. I can only assume that the Black Brotherhood rebuilt >for a few decades only to reignite the conflict in the 20's and 30's. It >would seem that after their initial birth pangs, they managed to deal a >deathblow to the Archheirophant of Cthulhu whom they unwittingly helped >to install. I'm not entirely clear what you've described here, and I don't have a copy of Lost Souls. Who are the Black Brotherhood? It sounds like they were a splinter group of Europeans, but I can't tell for sure. Does DG:LS say anything specifically about the Asian part of the Cthulhu Cult, or does it focus on the European end, using the Easternerns as plot points and backdrop? Charles _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Charles Ripper [yeroshka7@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 2:08 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] (WTC) Well, at least someone can laugh! >From: "ialdaloboth *genzundheit!*" > >Remember when some of us were wondering how to deal with this? > >All I can say is, thank goddess for the Onion > >http://www.theonion.com/ I thought the Onion was a bit heavy-handed. Try http://www.satirewire.com/ 'US asks bin Laden to be site of massive monument.' That's funny. Charles _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jussi Marttila [velcrokf@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 4:48 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] DG: Carrie Note: I wrote this message last night but Hotmail didn't let me in to send it, so it's a bit odd.Carrie Just had a swell time watching "Carrie" on the telly. Don't feel like sleeping quite yet so I'll put down the ideas about a DG scenario featuring "Carrie". I take it everyone has seen the movie or read the book or both, so I won't repeat the events. DG involvement happens after the Total Karnage at the prom. Simply put, there is really nothing to do except find out what happened. They discover the hazing and mental abuse, and the incident which finally made her snap at the prom. Maybe they discover her diary. All they will find out is that it was ordinary folk and "decent people" who drove her to this. This is one of my favorite scenario formats, the purely after-the-incident investigation where there isn't anyone left to blame and nothing to be done about what happened. I tend to run them when I'm tired of action and adrenaline. It still has much room for psychological horror and SAN loss. Also, I would think that this is the main form of Delta Green involvement in the Mythos. Rarely should they have the opportunity to stop the mythos or even launch preventive strikes against the opposition. This, IMO, enhances both the importance of occasionally winning and the futility of the struggle. Granted, if you do it too often, the players will tire of it but I do it occasionally. That's it for me. Tomorrow I will depart for Rostock and from there to Prague. Should I come across any Mythos activity, I'll let you know. Jussi _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jim Clunie [jim_clunie@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:02 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Deep Space 1 >From: "Andy Robertson" > >Comet pictures, very cool > > The Glove Cleaner > Call me crazy .. remember the earlier discussion of what a Hound might look like? http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/img/nucleus.jpg Jim C _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 3:19 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] tradecraft Greetings. There are sides of this list that will never cease to delight me > I was hoping for a reasoned debate about the merits of a >Kohler K-3435-X San Martine Peacekeeper One-Piece compared with the >products of other armament - err, I mean plumbing - manufacturers. >And what about the relative utility of the PowerLite and RimJet >systems? And we never touched on the issue of Japanese multipurpose equipment. A toilet with a set of switches attached? Lights? Music? Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [doctor.dee@libero.it] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 6:41 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] DG: Carrie Greetings. Jussi wrote >Just had a swell time watching "Carrie" on the telly. Don't feel like >sleeping quite yet so I'll put down the ideas about a DG scenario >featuring "Carrie". I take it everyone has seen the movie or read the book >or both, so I won't repeat the events. > >DG involvement happens after the Total Karnage at the prom. Simply put, >there is really nothing to do except find out what happened. They discover >the hazing and mental abuse, and the incident which finally made her snap >at the prom. Maybe they discover her diary. All they will find out is that >it was ordinary folk and "decent people" who drove her to this. To add a little excitement and give those gunfondling troglodytes that play DG someone to shoot at, you might bring in MJ/Outlook too. Carrie's powers are the sort of stuff they'd love to study, control and possibly duplicate. Of course, some boring individuals might even try and resolve a DG/MJ confrontation in such a situation through an application of tradecraft instead ;> >That's it for me. Tomorrow I will depart for Rostock and from there to >Prague. Should I come across any Mythos activity, I'll let you know. We'll wait eagerly! Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/