From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David Farnell [daf@fukuoka-u.ac.jp] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:35 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] This cost me a few points of SAN LOL! And I thought *my* memory was bad. Uh, guys...don't you remember we had a big, long discussion of this very same article about 2 years ago? It turned into an argument about the morality of such extreme body modification before somebody figured out that it was a hoax. I think there might have even been some hurt feelings. (OK, I'm not sure if Berin has been with us that long, so he's blameless, but Mark, Nervy, Graeme, and Shane, all forgetting that weirdness, and me--ME??--remembering? Wow--maybe I'm not going senile after all.) Dave _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:44 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green: Barbarians or Gatekeepers? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > At 11:51 PM 11/13/2001 +0100, Davide Mana wrote: > >"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It > >is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately > >triumph. of man." > >Robert E. Howard, Beyond the Black River, in Weird Tales, May/June 1935. Curse you Mana curse you curse you > > Now where in all this does Delta Green fit? We don't fit anywhere along this spectrum. True barbarians are relatively more immune to the Mythos. They can get et, but they cannot be corrupted and made part of it, the way both DG and MJ-12 are. A barbarian protects himself from the truths that kill, and keeps his mind on Lower Things. Both DG and MJ-12 are part of Civilisation. --- *** --- The barbarians right now are those guys with turbans wrapped round their heads, protected by an invincible religious ignorance. If Yog-Sothoth manifested on the battlefield they would see him as Azrael or Shaitan or some Islamic demon and suffer only minor SAN hits. In fact in many cases they would obtain an affirmation of their religious beliefs and an increase in SAN. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Greg Muir [gregmuir@adelphia.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:32 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] This cost me a few points of SAN > LOL! And I thought *my* memory was bad. Uh, guys...don't you > remember we had > a big, long discussion of this very same article about 2 years ago? It > turned into an argument about the morality of such extreme body > modification > before somebody figured out that it was a hoax. I think there might have > even been some hurt feelings. > I remember that discussion. I still shudder in horror. That page is ripe for the squicking. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Tal Meta [talmeta@optonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 6:40 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Elvis eats boats Michael Layne wrote: > > An acquaintance of mine thought that the "King" in the title of > Tolkien's "Return of the King" was "obviously Elvis"... (He was a bit > disappointed to find out this was not actually the case!) He's obviously heard Tom Smith's rendition of 'Return of the King (Uh-huh)'. http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/returnking.htm -- talmeta@optonline.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine AIM - talmeta ICQ - 12594453 Homepage - you made me throw it all away, my morals left to decay... _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 6:50 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: "The Coming Anarchy" - quote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Robertson" > More interesting, from a DG point of view, is the idea that our current > society is irreversably bound in that direction for some deepseated internal > reason. I label that force "Evil Old White Men" as a metaphor you can see better than some ambiguous Jungian spirit. Call them X if it makes you feel more rational, the thing about the EOWM is that they work with the scientific method. a. Observe some aspect of the universe. b. Invent a theory that is consistent with what you have observed. c. Use the theory to make predictions. d. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations. e. Modify the theory in the light of your results. I'm still looking for modifications, but so far EOWM do the job. When the alternative is shapeshifting reptilian hybrids from Europe's royal families, I think my metaphor is rather conservative. Go on, I double-dog dare ya, watch the news and ask "If there were Evil Old White Men pulling the strings, what happens next?", then follow the bouncing coincidences. They don't have to really be there to pull the strings, everything necessary is hard-wired into primates. Why do you think *every* candidate wears a red tie? It's a power color. If an individual tried to buck the current, their handlers or the polls would get them with the program ASAP. "The richest one percent of this country owns half our country's wealth, five trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons and what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bullshit. You got ninety percent of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own." Gordon Gecko, "Wall Street" Now, let's think about that 1 percent for a bit. They are primates just like most of the people that annoy you on a daily basis. The ones born into the situation have been protected behind gates and restricted memberships most of their lives, raised in an environment of privilege (literally "private law") separate from the classes they are taught are lower. A certain detachment from the nasty brutish world they see on the news can be expected and even understood. If they see the coming chaos as inevitable, don't look to them for solutions; they're too busy financing the new feudalism that guarantees them a comfortable keep with lots of supplies to wait out the coming siege. Starve 'em all, let God and the right kind of people sort them out. Then there are the folks that weren't born in that world but fought and bought their way in. I wouldn't be foolish enough to say all affluent people are sociopathic, but most of the easier (don't require creating something new) paths to that goal reward that sort of behavior. Just to make sure we're all on the same page, here's a thumbnail of what criminologists call sociopaths and psychologists call psychopaths: Lack of remorse, guilt or shame Lack of empathy Deceitful and manipulative Cunning and callous Exploitive attitude toward others Grandiose sense of self-worth Untruthfulness and insincerity Bears grudges, unforgiving of insults or slights Which, combined with money and power is my picture of an Evil Old White Man. Experts estimate that up to 3% of the world's population fits the profile. Most of them are not in prison. When placed in an environment where those traits enable success, it should be no surprise when the most successful have those traits. How about this? Look at those traits and come up with your own term. Now, while watching the news ask yourself what a cabal of people like that would make happen next. Does it happen? Try applying those traits to, oh I don't know... countries? Treat an entire country as if it was a guy with those traits. What happens next? Did you predict? Hey man, I ain't makin' no predictions about what you'll get. Maybe you have an all-around sunnier disposition. Maybe you don't method act sociopaths very well. Maybe you're smarter than me (yeah, as if) or something. But, I can almost guarantee that it will be an interesting experience. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Tim Betz [vag@arsimagica.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 7:27 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Woman Gets Life for Skinning Boyfriend http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011109/od/skinned_dc_1.html "CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) - A woman began a lifelong sentence behind bars Friday, never to be released, for murdering and skinning her boyfriend in a cannibal orgy." "O'Keefe said Knight, who had worked as a meat slicer in abattoirs, skinned Price with such expertise and a steady hand that his skin, including that of his head, face, nose, ears, neck, torso, genital organs, and legs, was removed to form one pelt." If you can't squick your players with this one, I think there's something wrong... Rob, sure you don't want to run Celeb Skin at Conquest set in NSW? :) -- Tim Another link about the same story, but now with puppy killing too: http://www.smh.com.au/news/0111/09/national/national31.html _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 6:14 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green: Barbarians or Gatekeepers? At 11:44 PM 11/13/2001 +0000, Andy Robertson wrote: > > Now where in all this does Delta Green fit? > >We don't fit anywhere along this spectrum. > >True barbarians are relatively more immune to the Mythos. > >They can get et, but they cannot be corrupted and made part of it, the way >both DG and MJ-12 are. REH might agree with you, but my point was that he and Fairfield are being lead down the garden path. Those "guys with turbans wrapped round their heads, protected by an invincible religious ignorance" are no more protected from the ravages of the Mythos than those guys with pocket protectors are protected by an invincible scientific illumination. And I would dispute that they are all barbarians - certainly Al-Queda are barbarians hammering at the gates to those in the Western World, but to a woman in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan they are very much the gatekeepers. As for "If Yog-Sothoth manifested on the battlefield they would see him as Azrael or Shaitan or some Islamic demon and suffer only minor SAN hits", these fanatics might just as easily see him as Allah (and in Yogi's case, they may not be wrong). Barbarians make assumptions just like gatekeepers, and those assumptions can be easily perverted by the Mythos. >A barbarian protects himself from the truths that kill, and keeps his mind >on Lower Things. Ah, but it is the Lower Things I'm talking about here, for isn't it the Lower Things that DG seems most focused on. ALPHONSE and his Rules of Engagement pretty much establishes that DG has neither the capability nor the interest to face those involved in the Big Picture (at this point), but can operate at the personal level. DG isn't trying to stop the Endtimes, but hold the line where it can. And even by concentrating on the Lower Things, might not the barbarians of DG really be hastening rather than hindering the Endtimes. Like I said, DG ops tend to begin in pragmatism but it all too often is "cowboy'd up" and ends in satisfying but ultimately meaningless death and destruction, and some where something inhuman laughs. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 7:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: "The Coming Anarchy" - quote The quote from my roommate's professor: "Tell your roommate [me] that most credible scholars of Africa, including myself, Kaplan's work on west Africa in the realm of "crackpot theories" that explain little, predict even less, offer inadequate description of general conditions in "west Africa," and are based on shoddy social science. The latter is not surprising, since Kaplan is a journalist, not a scholar of Africa, or even west Africa. If he were, he would know better than to commit a research heresy: try to draw extremely broad and general conclusions about an entire region (very little of which he actually visitted) based on limited experience and empirical observation. His second sin is that he camouflages that fact in his writing; his intellectual dishonesty, therefore, sucks in people like your roommate [again, me] into believing this drivel." Just an FYI. --Mark _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 8:35 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Lawyer\client confidentiality > Mark McFadden > ObDG: short of shooting people, everything your agents do will soon be >part >of their day job. > Just remember, every cult is now a terrorist cell and every behavior is >now >suspected terrorist activity. > Drop a dime on Club Apocalypse, the results should prove interesting. >That >swarthy Alzis fella fits the profile. The sub-basements will make good >practice for Afghanistan. Methinks I smell enough plot twists and background changes to warrant a second edition of Delta Green, or at least a "The Endtimes they are a Changin" chapbook. J. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 2:16 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green: Barbarians or Gatekeepers? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > > > >True barbarians are relatively more immune to the Mythos. > > > >They can get et, but they cannot be corrupted and made part of it, the way > >both DG and MJ-12 are. > > REH might agree with you, but my point was that he and Fairfield are being > lead down the garden path. Those "guys with turbans wrapped round their > heads, protected by an invincible religious ignorance" are no more > protected from the ravages of the Mythos than those guys with pocket > protectors are protected by an invincible scientific illumination. It's a matter of degree. They are *relatively* protected. As I said, they can be et. > would dispute that they are all barbarians - certainly Al-Queda are > barbarians hammering at the gates to those in the Western World, but to a > woman in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan they are very much the gatekeepers. Agreed in principle, though in fact the Taliben were seen as deliverers *from* the barbarity of the NA at first - but agreed in principle. I would suspect that the revelation of Yog-Sothoth on the battlefield would cause severe SAN hits among the civilised and (Islamically) educated Muslim clerics. These are the people who would realise that no way does this fit in an Islamic worldview, and suffer badly. However I do believe the dumb grunts would be protected. I am considering here THE CASE OF CHARLES DEXTER WARD. Many of the men who went in to clean out the magician's warren took severe SAN hits, but as Lovecraft says (quoting from memory) "it is fortunate that they were men of action and simple, severe, religionists. They outgrew memory, and smothered reflection in prayer". I believe a strong enough, ignorant enough, religious faith would provide some protection. > >A barbarian protects himself from the truths that kill, and keeps his mind > >on Lower Things. > > Ah, but it is the Lower Things I'm talking about here, for isn't it the > Lower Things that DG seems most focused on. Actually by "the lower things" I meant "Below the neck, and especially below the waist". The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 2:18 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: "The Coming Anarchy" - quote ----- Original Message ----- From: > The quote from my roommate's professor: > > "Tell your roommate [me] that most credible scholars of Africa, including > myself, Kaplan's work on west Africa in the realm of "crackpot theories" > that explain little, predict even less, offer inadequate description of general > conditions in "west Africa," and are based on shoddy social science. Ooh, what a scorcher. Thankeyew. the Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 3:51 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: EOWM and The new Masters ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Robertson" > > > More interesting, from a DG point of view, is the idea that our current > > society is irreversably bound in that direction for some deepseated > internal > > reason. > > I label that force "Evil Old White Men" as a metaphor you can see better > than some ambiguous Jungian spirit. Call them X if it makes you feel more > rational, the thing about the EOWM is that they work with the scientific > method. Let me explain how I see it. Sorry if this seems a bit inchoate. These are developing ideas. I have no doubt that the wealth- and power- controlling elites of the West don't give a fuck for the ordinary people, and have not done so for at least a century. They don't see themselves as in any way akin to the ordinary people. The buzzword here is "retribalisation". Bear with me. --- *** --- Human beings are programmed to live in tribes, groups where every one thinks and speaks more or less the same and trusts each other. The historical progression of the West, driven by technology, has been one of detribalisation - the old basis of tribal identity, which was geographic, has been broken down as tribes fused into larger and larger entities, nations and finally supra-national entities like the US or the EEC You now have a "detribalised" environment. The plus of this is that (in theory) you don't get killed for looking or speaking wrong. (Unless you wander into an ethnic enclave with a population which is still tribalised along racial lines). The minus is anomie, soltary existence, lack of connection. --- *** --- People instinctively fight back to tribes. Wampeters, Foma, Granfalloons. Churches. Clubs. Mailing lists --- *** --- But tribalisation is not harmless. Exactly the same root instinct leads to racial hatred, football hooliganism (the opposing team is slipping into the template of "the other tribe") and so forth. The problem of urban living in the megasocieties of the C21 is to provide the benefits of tribalisation without the bad bits. If that is in any way possible --- *** --- However. The relevant thing is this. One aspect of this "retribalisation" is the way upper class people more and more consider themselves a separate "tribe" from the lower class. Note, this new ruling tribe is not based on ethnicity. That is why EOWM is a bad analog today. It's based on wealth and common beliefs. Entry is meritocratic. Ethnically the "inner party", the people who increasingly control real wealth and power, is mixed. It is absorbing not only the ever-more-intermarried jews and the old white establishment and high-IQ middle class whites, but also the cream of the South Asian brain drain, and the hot brainy babes from China and Japan. There are a lot of jews and asians, fewer WASPS than their proportion in the US population. Very few hispanics, but Vincente Fox is a member, like his let-in-on-probation-cos-of-his-dad mate George Bush (ever notice how white the ruling class of Mexico has become in the last fifty years? "We are all mestizos". Right). Very few blacks. Bobos. Princetown university alumini. http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/ba2000-06-15.htm --- *** --- Now, I don't know if I am agreeing or disagreeing with you. But that is how I see the developing elite class or tribe in the US and most of the West. This development is a nascent thing, but it is getting stronger every year. These are probably not bad people. In fact they are lovely folk. But they are forming a tribe, set apart by manners, wealth, beliefs. I don't know whether they will ever fully tribalise - go the whole way and create a religion, and then outlaw marriage with people not of their tribe - but even now they have an agenda, a set of interests, which is not exactly the same as that of most ordinary people. They see themselves as benificent and wise, but they are a nascent tribe (the fact that their origin is ethnically mixed disguises this), and when push comes to shove they won't understand other people's orientation, whether religious, ethnic, or whatever, and their interests are not ours. They Know Better. Perhaps they will be good masters, perhaps not. While things remain easy, probably good and kind masters. Better, perhaps, than the EOWM they are displacing. But they are quintissentially the children of peace, ease, and wealth, and may be ill fitted to steer the world through the next century. --- *** --- ObDG - what happens when they decide the herd needs to be culled. For the longterm good of the world's ecology, and of the human race, of course. For survival. Read Sterling's "HEAVY WEATHER". The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [michelina.ponsetto@tin.it] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:26 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: "The Coming Anarchy" - quote Greetings. As the world slowly sinks back into its natural state of barbarism, the Lizard King wrote > Just to make sure we're all on the same page, here's a thumbnail of what >criminologists call sociopaths and psychologists call psychopaths: > >Lack of remorse, guilt or shame >Lack of empathy >Deceitful and manipulative >Cunning and callous >Exploitive attitude toward others >Grandiose sense of self-worth >Untruthfulness and insincerity >Bears grudges, unforgiving of insults or slights > > Which, combined with money and power is my picture of an Evil Old White >Man. Experts estimate that up to 3% of the world's population fits the >profile. Most of them are not in prison. No. I can tell you where to find a nice slice of them, 'tho. In Naples (Napoli), as members of the Order of Defenders of the Nine Gates (and no kidding). Sort of a very elitist Lyons/Rotary Club, this social circle offers a private docking area for members' ships, and a quiet place in which to enjoy cigars that go at 10.000 dollar each and glasses of brandy for a pithy 750 dollars a shot (but you can always order a 50K bucks bottle of wine from Florence). Admission fee is unspeakable (in the sense that they won't tell, and you need someone introducing you anyway), the seat is a pleasantly baroque (if a bit overdone) mansion by the sea, just out of Naples.. The current chairman (which was indeed Old and White), interviewed on the telly last September, explained that his circle does not engage in social or otherwise public utility activities, and actually abhors such activities. "We are not interested in helping the poor," he said, "because we are convinced that social differences are essential in our enjoyment of pleasure." In other words, knowing there's poor people that can't afford what we do gives us a kick. File under "Lack of empathy, remorse, guilt and shame". Money used to buy kicks - that's my current definition of social evil. Interestingly enough an economist called in during the broadcast to dissect the activities of the Nine Gaters ended up talking about their need to spend in futilities as a form of self-definition. The thing one does to reinforce his self-image - I buy more books, serial killers commit serial murders, these guys burn money. Incidentally, and before you ask - I've tried to track this elusive Order, but came up with nothing. No web presence, no public details. They even tried to sue the TV news programme because they were "unjustly portrayed as callous and insensitive to the many issues of their city". Yeah, right. Issues about which they are not moving a finger. In all honesty, I'd like to apply a healthy dose of barbarism to those guys. But it's just me, I'm sure. ObDG - a private circle, admission only upon introduction and by paying an unmentioned "fee", dedicated to the preservation of social disparity and the enjoyment of any form of personal pleasure as long as it's "exclusive" and made known to other members. Are we facing the European branch of the fate? Or something even more sinister? Hell, I'll have to re-watch Eyes Wide Shut. Or maybe read the novel. Davide Mana barbarian Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of jessthecatasc@eircom.net Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:47 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Fallen > I dunno. Seems like an aweful waste of Narly's powers. > And isn't he currently residing in Stephen > Whats-his-face in New York? He's not merely a God, he's an UBER-God. He can be where, when, who he wants. And since he's the only one who likes making us destroy ourselves, he fits: all the others are being forced to fit. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of jessthecatasc@eircom.net Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:54 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Pretty basic, but... > When you call Yog-Sothoth, why does he come? Why does a deity deigns > to reply to a summoning? What do puny humans have to offer to a > cosmic being? Obedience: as i see it, if there is correllary with the JudeoIslamicChristian/NordicGrecoCeltic/Hindu male god, then all these gods demand specific laws and regulations to be followed: the Sharia, the 10 Commandments, the Dictates of Odin etc. Likewise, Wizards "utilse" (and I use that word with a grain of salt the size of the MIB) the true laws of nature, ie Yog-Sothoth. The Caballa is based on a certain amount of Mathematics (see the film Pi), and Yog-Sothoth is connected with Technology and Computers: ie, if you follow "THE LAW", whatever it may be, you reap success - if we take the Old Testement for Ex, when the Jews obeyed the 10 Commandments, they were successful; when they were lax, the luck ran out. If we use this model, what Yog-Sothoth demands is complete obedience to whatever Dictates are laid down. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jonas Bolander (ERA) [Jonas.Bolander@era.ericsson.se] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:06 AM To: Delta Green (E-mail) Subject: [DG] Military Trials - MJ12 going abroad? OK, I need a reality check on this ... According to : http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1655000/1655169.stm non-US citizens can be handed over to military trials in terrorist cases. The article is rather thin on information beyond that. Another newspaper-article (http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,106101,00.html it's in swedish though) claims that the trials can be held anywhere in the world, that they can condemn people to death, that there will be no appeals in these trials and that they will be held in secret. Those last claims sound a bit implausible to me so I wonder if someone else have got any information about what these trial can and will involve? ObDG : Well, this can range all the way from MJ12 trying to get interesting prisoners away from those pesky DG-infested law enforcement agencies, to ... death-sentences, in secret, without appeal ... that smells like death squads to me. "Night and Fog Decree", here we go again ... /JoB _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of philip.ward@yestelevision.com Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:15 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Floor plans resources Well, look at this... http://images.google.com/images?num=20&hl=en&q=floor+plans How could I have missed such a thing as a search engine /me hangs head in shame.... ********************************************************************** This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain confidential or privileged information and should not be read, copied or otherwise used or disseminated by any unauthorised person. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Yes Television (Europe) Ltd . If you are not the named recipient, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail from your system. ********************************************************************** _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Stango [jstanley@echoman.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:41 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] Fiction: A Good Book is Hard to Come By, Part III Dave, Thanks so much for your post. Sorry about the delay in responding. I was wondering how many people's stories are posted after much proofreading and rewrites, most of the time for mine, I might remember to spell check before posting. I thank you for your comments about character development. I also loved Chapter 1 of the new Challenge....thanks for the post Stango _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Stango [jstanley@echoman.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:49 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] Fiction: A Good Book is Hard to Come By, Part III The Lizard King wrote: >>> Best rule of thumb: if the information or characterization doesn't come >>>from dialogue or actions a warning bell should go off. 1. Great point...I'm gonna really try to remember this one >>> Actually, rather than waiting for the big rewrite, I bookmark those >>>passages and rework them when I get stuck or delayed at some point in the >>>story. I'll do some cut&pasteing and distribute the exposition through >>>sections that came later, or something I said later will inspire a better >>>way and place to deliver the info. While I'm doing the cleanup my >>>subconscious usually works out the other problem. 2. When I'm stuck (like right now)..I have no desire to work on the story at all, it usually comes back at some point. >>>I used to actually make a checklist of things about a character that I >>>wanted to say, then dole them out one at a time and cross them off. I'd have >>>an informal rule that I'd avoid giving more than one factoid per paragraph. >>>Sometimes you have to use artificial tricks like that until it becomes >>>reflexive. 3. This is another good idea >>> The stuff of mine I'm happiest with was the stuff that I didn't plan ahead >>>of time. I finally understand what some of my literary heroes meant when >>>they talked of the story telling itself to them. Nowadays I dive in with a >>>situation and protaganist with only an idea of where it *could* go and no >>>idea of how it ends. 4. That is exactly my situation here. I have a little bit of an idead about what happens next, but other than that, I dont know how this story will turn out. Creating it to me, is even more fun than reading someone elses work. Thanks man, Stango _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:29 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: EOWM and The new Masters In a message dated 11.14.2001 5+57+46 PM, andywrobertson@clara.co.uk writes: << But they are forming a tribe, set apart by manners, wealth, beliefs. >> A tribe seems to be a self-sufficient community. This kind of social stratum seems more like a caste -- would their children be born into this "tribe?" Rather than regressing into tribalization, we are moving forward into something different, but based on the same principle. In this case, "tribes" are being formed within the bounds of an established civilization; therefore, the goal of the tribe is not to hunt a mastodon but to control some aspect of this society. They no longer seek to survive, but now to control. --Mark (I wonder what the good prof. would say about that) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:52 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green: Barbarians or Gatekeepers? At 08:16 AM 11/14/01 +0000, Andy Robertson wrote: >Actually by "the lower things" I meant "Below the neck, and especially below >the waist". Then these barbarians are going to catch hell when they face Shub-Niggurath or Y'golonac. The Mythos is not some artificial natural order - that is what civilization is. The Mythos *is* nature, in all its horrible glory. There can be no defense in retreating man down to its most natural aspect - if any that might hasten degradation. And this is my point - it doesn't matter if you are a EOWM or you rage against the machine, we all end up serving the Mythos in some fashion. We've done a lot of discussion on how the EOWM are leading humanity towards the Endtimes, but little of how the Good Young Multicultural Non-Gender-Specific are also doing their part. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 11:44 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Woman Gets Life for Skinning Boyfriend On 14 November 2001, Tim Betz reported: >"O'Keefe said Knight, who had worked as a meat slicer in abattoirs, skinned >Price with such expertise and a steady hand that his skin, including that >of his head, face, nose, ears, neck, torso, genital organs, and legs, was >removed to form one pelt." This sort of thing was apparently practiced by a cult some 125 years ago (although in an alternate universe). In Pinnacle's "Deadlands", there is an adventure (called "Skinners", IIRC), taking place aboard a Mississippi riverboat, in which members of a cult skin their victims in a similar manner. They then destroy the original corpse, don the skin, and are able to impersonate their victim. Some of the cult members carry around several skins (of both sexes) in their luggage, to better change their appearance on short notice if the need arises. Under special circumstances, a victim can even survive being skinned, although his only hope of remaining alive is to get his skin (or at least a skin) back... Might be inconvenient if he stole what he thought was his from the cultist's luggage, and it turned out to be that of a cult member that the other posse members knew by sight and were determined to fill with lead... "But Ah ain't Clem Clantin, fellas! Ah'm yore parnder Fred! Don'tcha rekkinize ---" BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! (If your character wasn't Harrowed before, he is now...):) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:18 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: EOWM and The new Masters ----- Original Message ----- From: > > << But they > > are forming a tribe, set apart by manners, wealth, beliefs. >> > > A tribe seems to be a self-sufficient community. This kind of social stratum > seems more like a caste -- would their children be born into this "tribe?" Spot on. A caste is a much better analogy. They are a head without any body, or much real linkage to any of the groups from which they were formed. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:24 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green: Barbarians or Gatekeepers? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > > Then these barbarians are going to catch hell when they face Shub-Niggurath > or Y'golonac. > We've done a lot of discussion on how the EOWM are leading > humanity towards the Endtimes, but little of how the Good Young > Multicultural Non-Gender-Specific are also doing their part. Good point. I think this falls under the heading "holocaust of extacy and freedom". In fact, Lovecraft dealt with this sort of thing many times, when he wrote about degenerate human subgroups formed by simple people who came into contact with the Mythos and tried to handle it by treating it as a "religion". You are right. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Chris Nichols [chrisnicls@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Order of the Defenders of the Nine Gates and the CoT Davide Mana barked up the wrong mask of Nyarlathotep and said: >ObDG - a private circle, admission only upon introduction and by paying an >unmentioned "fee", dedicated to the preservation of social disparity and >the enjoyment of any form of personal pleasure as long >as it's "exclusive" and made known to other members. >Are we facing the European branch of the fate? >Or something even more sinister? Oh, definitely something more sinister. I refer you to Delta Green, pg. 6. "[The Cult of Transcendence] controls a bewildering number of front organizations in America, dedicated to reducing the U.S. populace (and then the world) to a state of sociopathy through a variety of means to pave the way for the End Times." The Nine Gaters sound like a perfect European front for the Cult of Transcendence. And since Alphonse is having the supposed Cult of Transcedence material indefinitely surpressed, the duty falls to the DGML to offer up thoughts on the Cult of Transcedence and their fronts. Who furthers the goals of the EOWM? Who works toward the End Times on the Good Young Multi-Cultural Non-Gender-Specific side? What companies and organizations benefit from the global slide into sociopathy (and aren't emmeshed in other Mythos conspiracies)? Be Seeing You, Chris Nichols _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Bill Nichols [themaninawhitecar@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:34 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Military Trials - MJ12 going abroad? --- "Jonas Bolander (ERA)" wrote: > OK, I need a reality check on this ... > According to : http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1655000/1655169.stm > non-US citizens can be handed over to military > trials in terrorist > cases. It's somewhat of an open question, which is why the Bush administration is claiming this power through an executive order, rather than going to Congress. > The article is rather thin on > information beyond that. > > Another newspaper-article > (http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,106101,00.html > it's in swedish though) claims that the trials > can be held anywhere > in the world, that they can condemn people to > death, that there will > be no appeals in these trials and that they > will be held in secret. I don't know about the secret part, but federal judges have gone on board U.S. warships to arraign individuals captured by the FBI in foreign countries. This happened with one of the individuals convicted in the '93 attack on the World Trade Center. He was apprehended in Pakistan, taken to a ship and brought before a judge there. As for the appeals, that sounds right. Appeals are for reviewing whether or not the correct legal procedures were followed, and in this case, there are no clear procedures to follow. In other words, these individuals have few, perhaps no, "rights" under U.S. law, so whether they received the same sorts of procedural safeguards a U.S. citizen is entitled to is not relevant. I myself have more than a few objections to this situation. First, these courts, as is mentioned in the BBC article, have been used before, but in every case it has been during wartime. Now, we have heard a lot about the attacks on 9/11 being "acts of war," and I agree they were, but no actual declaration of war has been made. The U.S. recognized the Taliban regime as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, so I just don't see any good reason why President Bush could/did not ask Congress for a formal declaration of war. This calls into question the use of these military courts, because if the U.S. is not formally at war, then this is a criminal case which should be tried in the U.S. courts. The courts here have held that even if someone is a foreign national they are entitled to the same rights a citizen would have. Perhaps that is why these military courts are being considered. > Those last claims sound a bit implausible to me > so I wonder if > someone else have got any information about > what these trial > can and will involve? Something on the order of a court-martial, I would guess, since they are being put under the direct authority of the Secretary of Defense. The military-types on the list may have more information about how those are conducted. Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Stevens Dustin [zoom2baba@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 2:16 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: "The Coming Anarchy" - quote --- Davide Mana wrote: > > ObDG - a private circle, admission only upon > introduction and by paying an > unmentioned "fee", dedicated to the preservation of > social disparity and > the enjoyment of any form of personal pleasure as > long as it's "exclusive" > and made known to other members. > Are we facing the European branch of the fate? > Or something even more sinister? > Obviously, the Cult of Transcendence Steve Dustin zoom2baba@yahoo.com ===== _______________________________________________________ Ancient Evil: A Call of Cthulhu Website http://www.ancientevil.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 3:36 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green: Barbarians or Gatekeepers? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" From: "Andy Robertson" > > We've done a lot of discussion on how the EOWM are leading > > humanity towards the Endtimes, but little of how the Good Young > > Multicultural Non-Gender-Specific are also doing their part. > > > Good point. I think this falls under the heading "holocaust of extacy and > freedom". Very good point. Sorry if my using the term EOWM confused the issue. Me getting cute and being too hip for any possible room again. Sorry if tossing the "White" in there made it seem as if I was pointing at any particular possible group or cabal. All I mean by that is a reference to the almost traditional depiction of a Star Chamber in the mass media. A smoke-filled room of mature-to-elderly puppetmasters controlling events from a position of secrecy and privilege. They usually sit at a round table in almost total darkness in except the islands of light each inhabits. They will usually be lit from below. The point of the EOWM metaphor is that it can be used to predict events without defining a cause. They are probably not elderly or Caucasian or male. They probably don't exist. They are probably not a they. My (tentative) theory is that the EOWM is a handful of memes that have captured the imaginations of people with enough power\money\influence to shape events. However, just to get this back into the realm of the occult, you can find many of the themes\memes of the Winner's credo on the walls of Apollo's temple at Delphi. Curb thy spirit. Know thyself. Observe the limit. Hate hubris. Keep a reverent tongue. Nothing in excess. Fear authority. Bow before the divine. Glory not in strength. Keep women under rule. Sounds rather Victorian, doesn't it? I can easily see the young men Cecil Rhodes cultivated making a list much like that one as a collection of the gentlemanly virtues. I have no trouble seeing them on a wall in Yale or Harvard. Well, maybe the PC crowd would get rid of that "Keep women under rule" bit, but that just means it will move underground with the coffins and nude wrestling. Then again, it's sort of Japanese, isn't it? No wait, it has a distinct Arabic flavor. Chinese? It doesn't take much experience with primates to predict that most of the ones that fervently believe in such a code would find plenty of ways to make exceptions to suit themselves personally. Which I suppose brings us to the Good Young Multicultural Non-Gender-Specific as another "Them" pushing us into the Abyss. OK, I can play that game too. Here's a collection of things I cheered for (knee-jerk Liberal that I am) that are probably bad things in the final analysis. A jury acquits the policemen that were caught on video stomping Rodney King. So they are charged all over again with a Federal charge to get another trial that will produce some punishment. In the process of stomping him they were violating his civil rights. Federal charge, whole new trial resulting in convictions, and something that looks very much like double jeopardy to a layman like me. Same thing all over again for OJ. A jury acquits him of murder, so a Federal charge of violating civil rights (killing someone abridges their right to live is the logic) is put together and a whole new trial resulting in a hefty fine is arranged. I'm enough of an idealist to be unhappy with weaseling around the concept of double jeopardy (being tried twice for the same crime until someone gets the results they wanted, a constitutional no-no) even when the final decision goes the way I would have liked the first time around. Which does more damage to society as a whole: one killer walks or the basis of the law is fuzzied for a "higher justice?" A bill (law) is proposed and put on the ballot to make English the official (and sole) language of California. As soon as the majority of voters vote in favor of it it is nullified by a challenge in the State supreme court. It's the law but no one has to obey it because it's in the process of being disputed. On one hand, I was happy to see a bad law being ignored, on the other hand I would have been furious if some EOWM had countered the "will of the people," which is usually measured by votes at the ballot box, by some sleazy maneuver. There are so many examples of pressure applied in academia and in the arts I don't know where to begin. Let's just say that the Politically Correct crowd acts an awful lot like a new form of McCarthyism. The atmosphere of Political Correctness allows statements such as "all erotica is symbolic rape" to float by unchallenged. Any male questioning it is an apologist for symbolic rape, and any woman arguing with it is a brainwashed Quisling. It gets ugly pretty damn quick when anyone questioning the premise that all erotica any time anywhere is rape is lumped together with Holocaust revisionists. For some people the Evil Old White Men are not a metaphor, and they act upon their beliefs. My use of the EOWM model (and I better find a better label quick or this ain't going anywhere) is an extension of how I troubleshoot. It's how I tackle problems. Conspiracy buffs usually go after the root cause or usual suspects. They want to point at the secret culprits. So they scour the headlines and root through history to find likely candidates. I don't worry about who they are, but study how they act from their spoor. Let's replace Evil Old White Men with X for a moment, so we don't get hung up on the idea that I'm proposing they are malignant, elderly, Caucasian or male. In fact, let's even shelve the concept of "they" and just observe phenomena. ObDG: "the Mythos" can be used in place of X or EOWM as well. Now, observe events from 9/11 onward. Does there appear to be an agenda? Who benefits? That's all. I'm putting all of the observed parameters on one side of the equation and leaving X as unknown for now. I don't need to know who or what it is so long as I can predict events. And if anyone is keeping score, I've been doing pretty well. Massive layoffs within a week of events, enormous financial awards for big corporations, Vietnamization of Afghanistan, CIA connections to most of the players, events being used to erode civil liberties in the name of security, racial profiling while publicly denying it and what looks a lot like martial law being proposed for the duration. And all of it glistening with a coat of oil. Of course, X makes you think of the X-Files and we're back to EOWMs and cigarette smoke. What if we call them Winners with a capital W? If there is one salient feature the agenda has, it's that it seems to get it's way. The agenda is always there, waiting. Events just make it possible to accelerate the schedule. Mark McFadden And Delta Green? Troubleshooters that treat symptoms because they can't find a cause to shoot. But at least they are doing *something*. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of John Daly [jdaly_iv@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 3:59 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green: Barbarians or Gatekeepers? --- Gil Trevizo wrote: > At 08:16 AM 11/14/01 +0000, Andy Robertson wrote: > >Actually by "the lower things" I meant "Below the > neck, and especially below > >the waist". > > Then these barbarians are going to catch hell when > they face Shub-Niggurath > or Y'golonac. The Mythos is not some artificial > natural order - that is > what civilization is. The Mythos *is* nature, in > all its horrible > glory. There can be no defense in retreating man > down to its most natural > aspect - if any that might hasten degradation. > I don't know if I buy the "Mythos as Nature Incarnate" arguement here. I'm not even sure civilization is an "artifical natural order". It just sounds too much like social darwinism to me. A better way to put it may be that civilization is an "artificial order". Sorry, I'm digressing. I don't think of the Mythos as "Natural" because the majority of mythos things aren't native to earth. I guess if you look at nature from a cosmic perspective you might be correct, but the singular nature of certain mythos entities tends to lean towards belief structures vs. "hard science" simply because of their "unreproduceability" (the part where there seems to be one and only one of them). The Dark Goat of A Thousand Young may have lots of little things, but how many of them grow to adulthood being just like mommy/daddy? Since we don't see two Shub-Nigraths, I'll assume none. Perhaps the Whatley children were true attempts to reproduce by Yoggie. I dunno, this concept is like origami - either you can get it or you can't. Then again, if we look at another series, War Against The Chtorr, I think we'd find the human response: If it's invading earth, it might be natural somewhere else, and nature still might have made it, but it's gonna burn if we have anything to say about it. John __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:36 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Re: WCMP ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > > Very good point. Sorry if my using the term EOWM confused the issue. Me > getting cute and being too hip for any possible room again. No, I understand that it's a metaphor, don't worry!!! All my chat about the new multiethnic bobo elites is just meant to explain something about the way society is going, as I see it. I am not trying to make a political point here. But it is best to explain theories by diagramming examples, and this is the nearest to hand. Also, I wanted to put it in a coherent form. > However, just to get this back into the realm of the occult, you can find > many of the themes\memes of the Winner's credo on the walls of Apollo's > temple at Delphi. > > Curb thy spirit. This is exactly what I mean by "retribalisation". Forget all about "tribalism" or "racism" being good or bad and simply observe how the primates behave. Urban megasocieties are not new. Therefore retribalisation is not new. It is the force behind all "secret societies", including those going back millenia. It is the fundamental desire to be part of a Winning Coalition of Male Primates. Arguably it is the force behind all religions, (for the Priesthood is a WCMP) > > Sounds rather Victorian, doesn't it? I can easily see the young men Cecil > Rhodes cultivated Ah, Rhodes. WCMP builder par excellence. I've heard tell he was gay, but I suspect he was just *so* interested in bulding his WCMP that he had no time for women. > > Which I suppose brings us to the Good Young Multicultural > Non-Gender-Specific as another "Them" pushing us into the Abyss. > > Of course, X makes you think of the X-Files and we're back to EOWMs and > cigarette smoke. What if we call them Winners with a capital W? If there is > one salient feature the agenda has, it's that it seems to get it's way. The > agenda is always there, waiting. Events just make it possible to accelerate > the schedule. > Good points. I have absolutely nothing to disagree with. Trvial point to add, though. I do want to point out that there is another sort of WCMP - the ones that depend on raw physical force. These are not very interesting in a Mythos/DG sense, but they represent the oldest form of power. The local crime lord, the drug dealer, are as evil as the Smoking Man. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: "The Coming Anarchy" - quote On 13 November 2001, His Saurian Majesty "The Lizard King" wrote: > Just to make sure we're all on the same page, here's a thumbnail of what >criminologists call sociopaths and psychologists call psychopaths: > >Lack of remorse, guilt or shame >Lack of empathy >Deceitful and manipulative >Cunning and callous >Exploitive attitude toward others >Grandiose sense of self-worth >Untruthfulness and insincerity >Bears grudges, unforgiving of insults or slights > > Which, combined with money and power is my picture of an Evil Old White >Man. Experts estimate that up to 3% of the world's population fits the >profile. Most of them are not in prison. When placed in an environment >where >those traits enable success, it should be no surprise when the most >successful have those traits. Sounds like certain Men in Black Turbans who were responsible for the deaths of thousands a couple of months ago, and who are being bombed into the Precambrian even as we speak (something I many times wish would happen to the last two groups of sociopaths mentioned below):)... Or like the popular conception of lawyers (my apologies to the lawyers on this list -- not all are like that... I'm just talking about the popular stereotype...) Or like Most of the upper echelon of MAJESTIC... Or like the officers of my SCA Barony and their henchmen (though the same could be said for many local volunteer organizations)... Or like my stepfather and siblings! (That's why I associate with them as little as I can...) The sociopath, unfortunately, seems to be an all too common variety of Human. He (or in many cases she) has brought a lot of suffering to those around him or her, down through history (especially if he or she is a ruler, or a High Priest(ess), or has their own gang, mob, army, or pirate ship). I wonder if some of the Mythos aliens are considered sociopathic by their own kind, or if this is simply the way their people think? Or perhaps callousness and exploitation are only considered "bad" when the victims are your "own species"? Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com (With three sociopathic younger brothers, one sociopathic (and religiously fanatical) younger sister, a sociopathic stepfather, and just enough Psych to be dangerous...):) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:36 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Military Trials - MJ12 going abroad? On 14 November 2001, "Jonas Bolander (ERA)" wrote: >OK, I need a reality check on this ... > >According to : > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1655000/1655169.stm > >non-US citizens can be handed over to military trials in terrorist >cases. The article is rather thin on information beyond that. There is more information available from ABC news at http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/bush_terror011113.html. This sort of Executive Order has been issued before -- by FDR during WWII (allowing saboteurs to be tried by a military court) and by Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War (the _American_ Civil War -- not Cavaliers & Roundheads!):). A few pundits are pointing out that both the above were declared wars, and the current Afghan unpleasantness isn't... But that's a matter of semantics (IMHO). The President could certainly have gotten Congressional support for a formal declaration of war, but such things seem to have gone out of fashion (for some reason) since the US declarations of war on Germany, Italy, and Japan, following the Pearl Harbor attack. A couple of the talking heads on TV made some mention of the War Powers Act making such declarations obsolete, but I'm not sure I agree... What was done on 11 September was an act of war, and a Pearl Harbor style declaration of war would have been good, if only for symbolic value! However, the issue isn't whether the war has been declared in the old fashioned way, but that the measures are taken "in time of war". > >Another newspaper-article >(http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,106101,00.html >it's in swedish though) claims that the trials can be held anywhere >in the world, that they can condemn people to death, that there will >be no appeals in these trials and that they will be held in secret. If the captured Talibandits and terrorists are being tried according to the UCMJ, it affords them virtually all the same rights as someone being tried by a US civil court. (Under the old Navy Regs, as we saw in "The Caine Mutiny", things could get interesting, but the Universal Code of Military Justice changed a lot of that...) Most captured Taliban soldiers would be treated simply as EPW (Enemy Prisoners of War -- current bureaucratic for when we capture enemy soldiers, as opposed to POWs, which are our own brave soldiers who happen to fall into enemy hands... go figure!). Captured terrorists tend to be treated as criminals (a hold-over from the days of highwaymen and pirates, who were considered "an enemy of all civilized peoples"), while Nuremberg provides a precedent for defeated leaders who have done terrible things to find themselves facing war-crimes charges. I don't have my copy of the Universal Code of Military Justice handy at the moment, but, IIRC, the UCMJ provides that a crime that carries the death penalty cannot be settled by one senior officer (no capital NJP), but must go to a General or Special Court Martial. This would mean a panel of judges (probably three, and most likely Flag or General Officers), no jury. The defendant would be entitled to legal representation, and to cross-examination of witnesses. The requirements to reveal the sources of information used in the prosecution may not be as strict as in civil cases, if revalation of them would compromise intelligence sources and put US personnel or agents at risk. While we may see a drumhead court-martial or three, there is little risk of a Star Chamber type hearing -- if the US and its allies capture somebody important enough to haul before such a tribunal, they are likely to publicize it for the propaganda value. However, it is highly unlikely to turn into another O.J. Simpson media circus. The UCMJ includes an appeals process, though a review of a capital case against Osama or one of his lieutenants is likely to only delay the appointment with the firing squad or the noose for a little while. Personally, I prefer the way the SAS and Delta deal with terrs -- if they encounter them on an op, they simply terminate them and save the good guys the expense of a trial!:) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Greg Muir [gregmuir@adelphia.net] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:43 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Woman Gets Life for Skinning Boyfriend > adventure (called "Skinners", IIRC), taking place aboard a Mississippi > riverboat, in which members of a cult skin their victims in a similar > manner. They then destroy the original corpse, don the skin, and > are able to > impersonate their victim. Even more disgusting, this sort of thing was done in real life. I think it was the Aztecs. I can't imagine a feeling more disgusting than to have your entire naked body draped with the fresh bloody skin of another, to have their insides sliding against your own skin. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:46 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Woman Gets Life for Skinning Boyfriend >I can't imagine a feeling more disgusting than to have your entire naked >body draped with the fresh bloody skin of another, to have their insides >sliding against your own skin. (Whistles innocently and cracks his knuckles, waiting for the man.) J. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/