From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:42 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Bureaucracy: The Enemy Within. From: Jürgen Hubert >People familiar with GURPS Cyberworld will also remember that the USA >ultimately evolves into a dictatorship that persecutes "satanic cults" and other >members of the occult fringes heavily. To my eye this suggests that Delta Green >veterans were involved in the takeover, and that they preferred a >dictatorship over allowing Mythos cults run free. Not nearly horrific enough. The anti-satanic persecution should be an outgrowth of the Black Brotherhood and the Cthulhu Cult, who have managed to insinuate themselves into positions of power, and are destroying their occult rivals, much like the Nazi's did. The Man in Black is : not a huge fan of the Cyberworld timeline... Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:52 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Ursus Mark VI vs a Kodiak bear From: "The Lizard King" > After 10 years, $150,000 and a documentary, Troy Hurtubise is finally going > to get to test his armored suit against a bear attack on Dec. 9. > > http://www.improbable.com/news/2001/nov/troy-bear.html My favorite passage: "It took 10 years and $150,000 for Hurtubise to perfect the 68 kg high-tech suit of 'armor', made of chainmail, galvanized steel, titanium, high-tech plastic, liquid rubber, and 2,289 metres of duct tape." Yes, duct tape! Piffany, thou art avenged! Dave _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rob Shankly [ludo@bigpond.com.au] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:43 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Bureaucracy: The Enemy Within. Just replying to a few points raised in the discussion, in no particular order: Early on someone (MiB?) noted that there is a greater need to remain clandestine in DG than there is in Cthulhu 1920s. This is true enough, but should not be overstated. Games set in the interwar period include pressure on the PCs to keep their activities secret. If they do not, the social, financial and legal repercussions should be enormous. The Investigator's Companion (and the Arkham book IRC) talks about catastrophic effects on Credit Rating, for instance. This can be extended to wrecked careers, prosecution etc in much the same way as DG. DG adds the element that MJ12 are likely to do the prosecuting, and in many respects they can be viewed as a mythos cult, albeit a well equipped and patchily informed one. The point of the above is not to sidetrack the discussion, but to point out that the conspiracy theme did not come new-minted with DG. Having got that out of the way, I'd like to thank Gil for arguing for moderation in adopting the "official DG" idea. Not that I necessarily agree with him, but reading the last 2 day's posts in a block it is clear that he sparked a heck of a lot of ideas. Well done that man. Here follows a thumbnail sketch of a loooong campaign, the ideas liberally ripped off from the MiB, the Lizard and others. There needs to be a big backstory- starting in 1996, perhaps: <1> We start with recruitment, a few scenarios, some allies and perhaps victories. Then 9/11, increasing "secret police" activity in the US and abroad, and mounting fear as the PCs gain more of an insight into Majestic and the Mythos. Then the GM can lead then towards the coup which decapitates Majestic, perhaps ends the organisation, and makes a DG-like organisation "legal"*. In a game timeline I'd put this in 2002-3. <2> DG mounts an operation to seize control of Majestic in the aftermath of 9/11, and is largely successful. Maybe Lepus is around, maybe not. Kroft -has- to be removed, and for the sake of storytelling this must involve the PCs (otherwise what's the point of roleplaying this stuff?), therefore the PCs need to know about him in advance. "Hooray!" they cry, "We've won!". A new dawn has arrived. But DG is about the worm in the apple, and ultimate doom. I disagree with the MiB that the next phase of the game should have the "legal" DG confronting the mounting Endtimes . The Endtimes are a whole new horrible ballgame that should come last of all. <3> The next phase should be all about corruption of the new organisation: "The present clandestine DG would have to fight the good fight in the halls of power, but they will do it handicapped by the inability to cite their experience with an illegal conspiracy as evidence. The study and utilize faction of former DG personnel will be able to put on a dog and pony show of way cool technology and biotech to demonstrate the benefits of their approach. Therefore, I think even if there is a new improved Delta Green, there will still be a conspiracy of people who have seen the Elephant." -Roi DG itself is already heading down this path (NANCY). The new organisation should not end up a clone of Majestic. But I can see a quite unholy military-industrial complex. The players could be The Office of Homeland Security (Delta Green Majestic Section) and a thrusting company like New World Enterprises, for instance. Toss in some others (PARIAH, any/all parts of the British intelligence apparatus, helpful expatriate Germans) and it gets very dirty again. "Compromises may be necessary in order to have the best weapons- look at the effectiveness of the NRO-Delta teams mopping-up in Chechnya..." <4> By this stage a few more scenarios have come and gone, and the PCs will have quite a sour taste in their mouths. "Who tarnished our dream?" 9 out of 10 PC groups will start to go rogue again. I'd love to see "Andrea's People", as various superannuated Cowboys try to push the juggernaut back on track. If anything, this situation is MORE precarious than the current one, because the PCs will be bucking their bosses. Ironically, the more successful DG is during phase 2, the more dangerous the situation will be now, because so many of the bosses and co-workers will be ex-Cowboys themselves. There's nothing like playing poker at a table where everyone has loaded sixguns. Throw in (a) the need to protect the budget allocation ("Can't you bust some more cults, the Star Chamber are fingering the abacus again") (b) the newly created "Office of Homeland Security Professional Responsibility Division" (AKA The Toecutters) (c) repeated instances where the PCs have to subjugate their moral code to the organisation (d) Government oversight (e) the media (f) FOI requests (laugh, I could have died) (g) Sticky deals with the small players- Tiger Transit, ghouls, GRU-SV8, various Japanese companies And the mess is terrifying. And terror is what it is all about. <5> Then add full blown descent into the Endtimes if there's still a need to do so. Cheers, -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au *How much of what is happening at the moment is _legal_? How much of it will ever be known? Let alone tested in free courts... _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rob Shankly [ludo@bigpond.com.au] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:54 AM To: DG List Subject: [DG] How to get to the next Operatic performance Cut and pasted from SJG's Dailly Illuminator: "The U.S. Army TACOM National Automotive Center (http://www.tacom.army.mil/tardec/nac/index.htm ), in partnership with the International Armoring Corporation ( http://www.armormax.com/ ) and Integrated Concepts & Research ( http://www.icrc-hq.com/st.htm ),introduces the SmarTruck, a warrior-worthy vehicle packed with all the spy goodies and optional weapons the on-the-go armorer could want. Would-be international kidnappers will be almost as surprised by the grenade launchers as citizens will be to discover the Army has a national automotive center. Go here (http://www.tacom.army.mil/tardec/nac/projects/smartrck.pdf ) to see some specs or, if .pdfs are too slow, see the news story (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,47860,00.html ) from Wired." This info was posted a while ago, but the links above have been updated, and the Wired story is new. -- Rob Shankly ludo@bigpond.com.au Better living through reckless experimentation. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:38 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Bureaucracy: The Enemy Within. From: Rob Shankly > I disagree with the MiB that the next phase of the game >should have the "legal" DG confronting the mounting Endtimes paraphrasing wildly, but that seems to be the thrust of his posts>. No, I said that the ENDTIMES will see powerful offical Delta Green opposing the mythos. Nothing I said ANYTHING to the point that gaining official status for DG will immediately spark the ENDTIMES. That is something that you have fabricated, and I hate it when people put words in my mouth. I think that the ENDTIMES will see a dissolution of the social fabric that holds governments together. Thus, as society breaks apart at the seams, the activities of the New Delta Green will be shattered as it falls apart from within. Much as you've deliniated actually. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of jpetheri@cyberbeach.net Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:30 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Ursus Mark VI vs a Kodiak bear On Thursday, December 06, 2001 at 09:39:03 PM, The Lizard King wrote: > After 10 years, $150,000 and a documentary, Troy Hurtubise is finally going > to get to test his armored suit against a bear attack on Dec. 9. > > http://www.improbable.com/news/2001/nov/troy-bear.html > > Damn, this is something that calls for a live webcast and all we get to see > is some guy guillotining his feet instead. > > Mark McFadden Again, I have been remiss in keeping the DG-list up-to-date on local events. Troy Hurtubise was interviewed on CBC Radio (Sudbury) a couple weeks back, which is how the wire services picked it up. I'd provide the link to that story, but the CBC technicians union got locked out by management this morning and the website is already starting to become disfunctional. The plan for the trial on December 9 is to videotape the bear's attack. If I hear that this tape is available, I'll let the list know. ----------------------------------------------- Brought to you by Cyber Beach's BottleMail ! http://www.cyberbeach.net _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:31 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Mi-Go\Serpent Men connection On 6 December 2001, "Greg Muir" had this to say about HP Lovecraft: >Thank God >he wasn't afraid of bunnies or Cthulhu would hop. Of course, that might mean that Cthulhu Bunny would only be dangerous at Easter!:) Or the Deadly Vorpal Cthulhu might live in a cave, littered with the remains of those men and monsters foolish enought to challenge the Rampant Rabbit of Unspeakable Death From Beyond! And we could hear one DG Agent telling another, near the entrance to the Chtulhucave: "But look at the _bones_, man!" Destroying the Cthulhu Bunny might require the Unholy Hand Grenade of Azathoth!:) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:48 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] New Private-Sector Ally On 6 December 2001, Joseph Camp sent the following communication from A Cell: >http://www.flyinglab.com/ The plane appears to be a PBY-5A, or possibly a PBY-6A Catalina, a rugged, dependable amphibious patrol plane of a design first fielded in the 30s, which saw valuable service in WWII. Probably some of the agents in DG: ODH flew such a plane, or were delivered or retrieved by one... The transparent blisters on the aft fuselage (for the gunners' stations) were introduced, I believe, with the PBY-5, replacing sliding rectangular panels on the earlier versions. The PBY-5 was, like its predecessors, purely a flying boat, but the PBY-5A variant -- the best-known of the Catalinas -- introduced a retractable tricycle landing gear, thus becoming an amphibian. (You can see one of the main wheels in the retracted position, just below the wing.) The later PBY-6A looked very similar, with the main improvements being in the engines, and the vertical stabilizer. The Catalina used by flyinglab appears to be a demilitarized version, probably war-surplus, with the nose turret mounting faired over. I believe Jacques Cousteau had a plane very much like this, and Clive Cussler once described Dirk Pitt flying one in NUMA colors, in one of his novels. Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com (who used to own several plastic models of various versions of the Catalina...):) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Janusz A. Urbanowicz [alex@bofh.torun.pl] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:06 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Bureaucracy: The Enemy Within. I agree and this is why DIASPORA - my setting for running DG-related campaings in Europe is based on assumption of conspiracy. Some day I'll post the whole thing here and to dgww2 (it is about 40% done) but for starters it goes like this (any ideas welcome): DIASPORA was a DG operation during WW2. Its task was to set up a more grass-roots support for fight with Karotechia and Mythos, first by approaching various exile govt's and emissaries of resistance movements (hey, I found actual data on cooperation between OSS and Polish exile governement :-) ). They were ask to form a loose network on agents who would supply DG with data and support. After the war the network weren't disbanded, and after the Iron Curtain fell, the agents were left organized, but alone. And they started to fight Mythos themselves. Alex -- C _-=-_ H| Janusz A. Urbanowicz | ALEX3-RIPE | SF-F Framling | | * ; (_O : +-------------------------------------------------------------+ --+~| ! &~) ? | Płynąć chcę na Wschód, za Suez, gdzie jest dobrem każde zło | l_|/ A ~-=-~ O| Gdzie przykazań brak dziesięciu, a pić można aż po dno; | | _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:14 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Ursus Mark VI vs a Kodiak bear On 6 December 2001, His Saurian Majesty "The Lizard King" said: > After 10 years, $150,000 and a documentary, Troy Hurtubise is finally >going >to get to test his armored suit against a bear attack on Dec. 9. > >http://www.improbable.com/news/2001/nov/troy-bear.html > > Damn, this is something that calls for a live webcast and all we get to >see >is some guy guillotining his feet instead. You know how it is with TV productions! Shows like "Off With His Feet!" seem better to the Hollywood executives than "World Wide Kodiak Bear Wrestling", even if the latter would probably have The Man in Black himself as announcer! Possible excerpts from WWKBW: The Kodiak Bear (to the MiB before the bout): "That Shorty thinks he's protected by that armor suit! I'm gonna crack him like a walnut!" Bear Suit Man (to the MiB before the bout): "My armor is indestructible -- why, it even includes _duct-tape_! Duct tape is like The Force -- it has a light side and a dark side, and holds everything together!" Scientist (to the MiB before the bout): "The battlesuit may very well be indestructible, MiB... but the _wearer_ isn't! Troy's in pretty good condition, but Captain Scarlet he isn't... Back in the Middle Ages, an armored fighter facing someone with a mace could receive quite a pounding from his foe, even if the armor itself didn't shatter..." US Army General (to the MiB before the bout): "Yes, we're very interested in observing the performance of this combat armor! Why, add electric power assist, a computer, a jet pack, and appropriate ordnance, and we have the armor from Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"! I think if I were a terrorist, I would be very worried when this suit enters line service!" Former DG Agent (in straitjacket, speaking to the MiB before the bout): "A full-grown Kodiak bear is _nothing_! I wanna see him fight a _Shoggoth_! I wanna see him fight _Cthulhu_!!" "The Tech-Support Team for the Bear Suit is standing by..." (Shot of a man in a lab coat with a roll of duct tape) "...and the cheering section for the bear is onsite..." (Shot of a group of bears with pennants, and banners reading "Go Bear!") Bear fan (with camera): "Well, MiB, I think there are gonna definitely be some Kodiak Moments tonight!" Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:20 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Its gonna come out for Mac, right? [was RE: Well, well, well...] Cmon guys, cmon... --Mark _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:27 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Mi-Go\Serpent Men connection From: Michael Layne >On 6 December 2001, "Greg Muir" had this to say >about HP Lovecraft: > >>Thank God >>he wasn't afraid of bunnies or Cthulhu would hop. When he's not lethargically lounging about spawning formlessness and snatching stray investigators with his prehensile tongue like they were flies (the ladies love a Great Old One who can lick his own eyebrows) Tsathoggua hops around -- he's a frog from Saturn after all. I remember reading a mythos story called "One Froggy Evening" where Tsathoggua was buried in the Keystone of a sinister building, only to be freed by a hapless workman who was driven mad by the wailing vaudevillian showtunes sung by the diminutive Tsathoggua (much shrunken due to his long imprisonment). I believe the unholy chanting went something like: "Hello my baby! Hello my darlin'! Hello my ragtime gal!" ...truly appalling, this terrible tune was accompanied by the most bizarre cavorting and dancing, as described in the obscure writing known only as "The Michigan Rag". The alien writhings of vaudeville are not dead that can eternal lie. I think the story ended with the imprisonment of Tsathoggua in the keystone of a newly dedicated building, only to be opened by another hapless soul in the far future... http://www.toonopedia.com/michigan.htm The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:48 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Game Balance in DG At 04:37 AM 12/7/01 -1000, The Man in Black wrote: >You fail to realize that nothing on the human scale is ever going to be >"balanced" with the mythos. Even superhuman forces like the Heralds of >Hypnos are dwarfed by the Great Old Ones and their servants. I don't know your situation, MiB - do you play or run DG as a game? The reason I ask this is because until I actually got involved in a campaign (long after I got into DG), I had much the same notions as yourself. Looking over the rules and the material, I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about that DG unbalanced CoC because the PC's could easily take out Mythos threats with assault rifles and grenade launchers. It seemed obvious to me that the Mythos beasties were too strong a threat to ever be, as you say, balanced out on the human scale. Now, DG is not unbalanced, but what I found was that it was not for the reason I thought. Yes, there are several Mythos threats that are simply too powerful for the PC's to have any chance to deal with; but, there's a reason that vanilla CoC is so often just used for one-shots - the "fun" in vanilla CoC is usually not in in-game success, but in watching your PC go insane/die in the face of an impossible-to-beat force. DG works best as an ongoing campaign, and I can tell you as both a player and a GM that an ongoing succession of "find out the threat, quickly see that it is too hard to beat, get creamed, rinse and repeat" gets really damn old. You have to give the PC's some chance of success, even if it that success is transitory and meaningless when the Endtimes come. And game balance is required when figuring that chance of success, same as any other game. DG is not balanced because the Mythos is too hard to beat, but because the chances of DG beating the Mythos threats *on an individual basis* require thoughtful and creative roleplaying. Getting creamed by the GOOs and their servants requires as much good RPing as taking out an assault rifle and perforating Deep Ones. Crafting a good cover story, working through the bureaucracy without getting caught, finding out how to take out the threat when, yeah, you're an FBI sharpshooter, but all you have is your buddies and you in your cell because to call in HRT would invite too much attention - that takes good RPing. And that is what balances out DG - the fact that the PC's are part of an illegal conspiracy. Stop looking at this from just a campaign perspective. To often, we forget in the rush to create juicy campaign material that at the ultimate end of this, it's about what happens in the scenarios. I'm replying to the rest of this on the dgww2 list. That list needs a thread. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:54 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Ursus Mark VI vs a Kodiak bear From: Michael Layne > Bear fan (with camera): "Well, MiB, I think there are gonna definitely >be some Kodiak Moments tonight!" The MIB thinks this candy ass better borrow SuperDave Farnell's Giant Hamster Ball if he wants to keep his pretty face intact from Smokey the Yukon Mauler's clawrific assault. It's been conclusively proven by the John West Salmon corporation that the only protection against bears is a sharp wit and a desire to make a profit in the commercial fishery industry. Even against bears trained in the martial art of Curly-Fu: http://www.adcritic.com/content/john-west-red-salmon-bear-fight.html John West endures the worst, to bring you the best. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Eric Eves [eeves@erskine.edu] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:07 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Ursus Mark VI vs a Kodiak bear >Bear fan (with camera): "Well, MiB, I think there are gonna definitely >be some Kodiak Moments tonight!" I saw it coming a mile away, and yet was powerless to protect myself from your evil punning. Curse you, Michael Layne! Curse you! _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:34 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Bureaucracy: The Enemy Within. In a message dated 12.07.2001 11+11+28 AM, scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com writes: << After all, the whole point to regaining official status is that Delta Green has finally WON! Majestic has been beaten. It should be a New Era, and everything should be different. >> That is something that can NEVER happen! The whole point of DG and Lovecraft in general is that humanity CAN'T win. You go kicking and screaming or you go complacently and obediently, but YOU GO! Lovecraft's horror lies in futility; people can fight their fate but in the end, they're in the same world of shit as those who just go with the flow. Therefore, an "official" DG -- that is, "winning" DG -- is a longterm impossibility. An "official" DG would nothing more than a who-you-gonna-call Mythosbusting agency -- the "good guys," if you will, who "triumph" over the "bad guys." Even if you divide the Lovecraft universe into "good and bad" (that old Derlethian heresy), the end result is the "bad guys" winning. An official DG goes against every fear Lovecraft and DG's creators prey upon. If making DG official is de facto "winning" the game, then it can never happen. If making DG official only unleashes new horror and misery, then its OK, but you're still not dealing with individual characters and their own "personal apocalypses" (to borrow a term from the back cover of ALIEN INTELLIGENCE) that are such an integral part of DG. By becoming a crew of bureaucrats, stromtroopers, desk jockeys, and feild agents, you do nothing but create a new, Mythos-oriented X-Files. Except DG wouldn't have to put up even with the government conspiracy constantly slapping Mulder [until recently], Scully and the others down. Contrast the vision of DG's creators -- lone-wolf, cowboy agents who day-to-day teeter on the edge of sanity and have no retreat from the horrors they face -- with Mulder and Scully coming back to the office, or Mulder's now-abandoned bachelor pad, the CSM and the aliens disposed of for the day at least, kicking back with a light beer and mellow muzak. They watch Mulder's fish. Then the phone rings. THIS SEASON'S INFORMANT: "Mulder, I have a case you might be interested in..." To the Batcave, Scully! You can see my point. Conclusion: An official DG is not possible, because it eliminates the two major elements of DG: the horror of futility (that nothing you can do will ever make the problem better) and the personal commitment to the cause (that you will, nonetheless, do everything you can, even at the expense of your sanity and life). [ E N D R A N T . ] --Mark _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:50 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Game Balance in DG In a message dated 12.08.2001 2+55+38 AM, furrylogic@mindspring.com writes: << an ongoing succession of "find out the threat, quickly see that it is too hard to beat, get creamed, rinse and repeat" gets really damn old. You have to give the PC's some chance of success, even if it that success is transitory and meaningless when the Endtimes come. >> Yeah, so you might take out a dark young or something with a rocket launcher. So what. You wanna try the same with Cthulhu? Azathoth? Faced some raw amotic energy lately? Looked in the face of chaos? Wait, don't run! Aw shucks, you lost the rocket launcher. Point being, no matter how many mythos minions you slay, its never gonna devolve into Buffy the Vampire Slayer, running around with sharp, point spiked things beating the bad guy down. The mythos DG faces is killable, and maybe that'll give agents a surge of pride or whatnot. But the mythos that DG faces isn't the WHOLE mythos... --Mark _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:01 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] DIASPORA Post what you have, or email it to me at "ellocotoro@aol.com." I have similar info concerning the post-war OPC and CIA and Ukrainian and Romanian exiles and have been feverishly hammering it together into a modern-day mythos threat. Long story -- I'll go through it sometime. --Mark PS. You're not the guy who posted the Section X stuff on AMEN, are you? _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:01 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Game Balance in DG At 02:50 PM 12/7/01 -0500, ElLocoToro@aol.com wrote: >Yeah, so you might take out a dark young or something with a rocket launcher. >So what. You wanna try the same with Cthulhu? Azathoth? Faced some raw amotic >energy lately? Looked in the face of chaos? How many published scenarios involve the PC's facing the raw amotic energy of Azathoth? The rampage of Cthulhu? From what I've read, I can count them on one hand. And usually, it's at the end of a mega-campaign, where the gamers are probably gonna finish with their PC's all dead or institutionalized and then go on to play something else until they feel like a one-shot of CoC again. >Point being, no matter how many mythos minions you slay, its never gonna >devolve into Buffy the Vampire Slayer, running around with sharp, point >spiked things beating the bad guy down. The mythos DG faces is killable, and >maybe that'll give agents a surge of pride or whatnot. The Mythos DG faces is not always kill-able - sometimes it can contained through political means, or thwarted through magical ritual, or dealt with in any number of imaginable means through roleplaying. My point is that there is usually a chance of success - not *total* success, but some measurable success. And that is where game balance comes in, because without it, the PC's will either find success impossible or too easy. And when it's easy, that "surge of pride" can easily degenerate into "same shit, different session." Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Joseph Camp [alphonse@delta-green.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:17 PM To: Delta Green Subject: Re: [DG] Its gonna come out for Mac, right? [was RE: Well, well,well...] > Cmon guys, cmon... No idea. As a Mac user, I'd certainly like it to be available. Flying Lab is a PC developer with a very small staff (about ten people), so they don't have the resources or the skills to do a Mac port themselves. But the eventual publisher of the game might do so, or it could be licensed by a Mac company such as MacPlay. Those are all decisions for a ways down the road. As to the initial release, it could be for PC, or X-Box, or something else. That's also, to some extent, a decision that the publisher will have an interest in. be seeing you, Alphonse _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Ethan Butterfield [primus@veris.org] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:32 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Its gonna come out for Mac, right? [was RE: Well, well, well...] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 01:16:51PM -0800, Joseph Camp wrote: > No idea. As a Mac user, I'd certainly like it to be available. Flying Lab is > a PC developer with a very small staff (about ten people), so they don't > have the resources or the skills to do a Mac port themselves. But the > eventual publisher of the game might do so, or it could be licensed by a Mac > company such as MacPlay. Those are all decisions for a ways down the road. > May I suggest Westlake Interactive? They're pretty much the number one PC-to-Mac porting house right now, with recent games like American McGee's Alice, Max Payne, and The Sims under their belt. They've got a ton of experience in the field, and if you ask nicely, they may even Carbonize the game for OS X. ;) - -- "You forgot the first rule of a fanatic. When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy." - Cmdr. Jeffrey Sinclair, Babylon 5, "Infection" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8ETVcAmwSMwnpLHgRAj+ZAJwOr7IYYaSuTbVNyiApdRwDW/T3tgCfdhla H4lfCi3suBfdkYD4WCeqxgs= =hgiV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of James Knevitt [psipsina@iprimus.com.au] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 5:44 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Ursus Mark VI vs a Kodiak bear ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Man in Black": > It's been conclusively proven by the > John West Salmon corporation that the only protection against bears is a > sharp wit and a desire to make a profit in the commercial fishery > industry. Even against bears trained in the martial art of Curly-Fu: > > http://www.adcritic.com/content/john-west-red-salmon-bear-fight.html Yeah, seen that one ages ago. Still good for a laugh, though. James _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@eircom.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 6:23 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] DG: Cthulhu MTV For the last two months, I've addicted myself to MTV's definitive symbol of "scritch-scritch" (eg bottom of barrel being scraped). Yup. Jackass. Used to be once a week, then twice, now Im almost taping it. Its dumb. Its crude. Damn its addictive. Here's the thing: the show is a lot more clever than you'd think: they had Brad Pitt on, in "abduction", where he goes into an ATM que, some guys in a black van pull up, should "hey Brad Pitt", and then grab him. Result? Bystanders ringing the local police saying "Brad Pitt was just in the que for the ATM beside me, and he got grabbed by some guys in a black van who pulled off!". Smacks just enough of conspiracy theory/urban legend that you create adequate disinformation. (I'm getting to a DG point, believe me). Now, if we take the Lovecraft bit about the Stars come Right, killing and maiming etc. We have a tendency to assume it'll all happen fairly quickly, rather than a slow seeping. What if the latter is correct, and this is just a forerunner of the end? (ok, "MTV brings about the apocalypse" is original...). Whereas gladiators brought out animal bloodlust, Jackass has no such effect. You don't get aroused by Jackass, you laugh at morons who stick their heads in buckets of jellifishes, or shoot themselves with Tasers. But occassionally you are envious: when you see one of them skate-board off the highest diving board to land in a pool 40 feet below, well your low brain can only think "I want to do this". The warnings at the start aren't about dissuading kids; they're about making sure MTV has no liability. Now, taking into account 1) mindless violence 2) encouragement of abandonment of normal social notions in favour of cruel sadistic opportunism 3) Jackass's adictive quality (just like Cops!!!) 4) the fact that people WILL emulate doesn't that sound a bit like a Nyarlathotop cult? " Hello, I'm Johnny Knoxville, and today I'm playing a power game amongst New York sorcerers, immortal Nazis, and anti-Paranormal agents, all while wearing a thong" has a certain ring. So, taking this into account, a brief Scenario proposal: CHAOS TV This Spring on Fox (opposite Phenomen-X) Nyarly-T and his crew go around performing stunts to the public, who all the while unaware. You won't believe the angles! (Co 2001 Starry Wisdom Productions) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 7:50 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] The new feudalism So the captain of the Titanic addresses the folks in steerage. "Many critics are making a lot of noise about the number of lifeboats, implying that we only care about the people in First Class. They forget that it is only the high cost of First Class tickets that provides any lifeboats at all. Our ship has suffered from a cowardly attack by an iceberg, intent on destroying our way of traveling. We were attacked because we are a beacon of light in a foggy sea, but we shall prevail. First, we must lighten the ship. Therefore, we shall be locking you down here so that we may expedite the lightening procedures on the weather decks. After all of those First Class passengers and the heavy lifeboats have been removed, the ship will be much lighter and we can continue on our voyage." From the NY Times: "Shortly after Sept. 11, George W. Bush interrupted his inveighing against evildoers to crack a joke. Mr. Bush had repeatedly promised to run an overall budget surplus at least as large as the Social Security surplus, except in the event of recession, war or national emergency. "Lucky me," he remarked to Mitch Daniels, his budget director. "I hit the trifecta." Looks like there won't be any surplus, but there are no signs that the tax cuts for people making over $200,000 a year will come to an end just because of a war, a recession and a national emergency. Those tax cuts are the law of the land now, and will be in force for 10 years. Why, if we alter the law of the land just because of a terrorist attack, the terrorists win. New York is devastated, so the President publicly offered them over $40 billion to help in their recovery. Uh, well, how about closer to $19 billion, and then only if you make a big stink and get lawyers involved. What's with those people? Don't they know we're under attack? At about the same time as New York was pointedly asking when they might expect a check, many of America's largest corporations were receiving millions of dollars in refunded taxes from the last 15 years. This was sold as a shot in the arm for the economy. With more cash on hand corporate America would produce jobs and we'd head off that recession. Uh huh. You know corporate America, when they get extra cash they don't turn it into executive bonuses, they make jobs. The "incentive" plan would produce over 170,000 new jobs according to the White House. Uh, do the math. Those 170,000 jobs would have a salary of 2.5 million apiece. OK OK, I'm cheating and not including health benefits. Just days before Enron filed for bankruptcy and laid off 4,000 people, it paid out $55 million in bonuses to about 500 employees. Those lucky 500 were "key people" that would be needed to get the company back on it's feet when the situation changed. It was, uh, an *incentive* for them to stay. Yeah, that's it. This is the way it has always been. Insiders prosper, outsiders get hosed. The insiders could be born that way by carefully choosing their noble ancestors. The insiders could bludgeon they're way to the Big Table by being more violent and sociopathic than their neighbors. Hmmmm. Must be noble blood, look how far he's come. Or maybe your society has evolved beyond that stupid class-conscious nobility thing. I mean, we still need insides and outsiders, but now anyone can buy their way to the Big Table. All you need is umpty gazzilion simoleons and you're there. Anyone that is willing to work hard enough can get that. Much better than some system where just because your Dad was something you automatically become important too. Now here's the thing. Work with me here because it's subtle. And do me a favor and don't assume what I'm railing about is some feeble-minded Capitalism\Socialism, poor people good\rich people bad thing. I'm back to the Root of All Evil and virtualization. Look at all the misery that can result from numbers going up or down. At one level of perception real airplanes smashed into real buildings and killed real people. But there is a virtual reaction to that reality by a bunch of numbers plummeting because of projected perceptions. Then real people lose their real jobs to make the numbers go up again. We read about all these millions and billions of dollars whizzing around and changing hands, but are there trucks pulling up to a corporate HQ with bundles of cash? And even that would be another symbolic transaction. At one time a noble would have to get some thugs together to kick people out of their homes, a lot of thugs if there were a lot of neighbors. At one time someone wishing to gut the treasury and move on would have to get wagons and horses and hire laborers. And even that would be a symbolic theft, because he wouldn't be stealing a castle and food and servants and baubles and bedtime companions, he'd be taking gold. And he'd have to hire a bunch of warriors to go with him so that he could keep it, and he'd have to pay some exceptionally well so that they'd keep an eye on the others. I'm working on the idea that civilization as we know it is the product of Nyarlathotep. Everything that we think DG is fighting for is actually continuing the program for the Endtimes. It was designed that way. The biggest obstacle we have to avoiding the Endtimes is that we cannot imagine any other way of living. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Nerva Vels [nerva.ramos@verizon.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 7:38 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Mi-Go\Serpent Men connection Um, dude, it's not so strange. Happens to me. But I love the ocean..... nana nervy naga > From: "Greg Muir" > Reply-To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com > Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:35:46 -0800 > To: > Subject: RE: [DG] Mi-Go\Serpent Men connection > >> In _The Annotated HP Lovecraft_, editor ST Joshi makes the following >> observation in a footnote on p193: "Lovecraft himself was notoriously >> sensitive to cold, although the causes for his ailment are not well >> understood. He was uncomfortable when the temperature dropped below 70 >> [degrees F], and would lose consciousness in temperatures below >> 20 [degrees >> F]." >> > That always struck me as an odd ailment. Any medical possabilitites? > > One thing, it shows where some of his ideas came from, personal creeps. Cool > Air, Mountains of Madness, the cold was an alien and uncomfortable > environment for him. He also really hated the sea so could think of nothing > more horrifying than creatures that lurked in the depths beneath. Thank God > he wasn't afraid of bunnies or Cthulhu would hop. > > :) > > _______________________________________ > The Delta Green Mailing List > http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ > _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Nerva Vels [nerva.ramos@verizon.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 7:49 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Mi-Go\Serpent Men connection Thought this might be useful: http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html And then there's this: prolly posted before. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ been out of touch a bit. catching up on mail. college is murder. I love higher learning. nana nervy naga _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of SGlancy12@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 7:53 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: DG, circa 1942 (was Re: [DG] Bureaucracy: The Enemy Within.) Ken, why are you assuming that the raid on the Karotechia was a battalion sized action? In Dennis Detwiller's upcoming DG novel, the raid is more like a company sized action and the majority of the raiders we French resistance fighters with a sprinkling of OSS and Rangers thrown in to stiffen the mix. A. Scott Glancy, Delta Green author and general know-it-all From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:10 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Cc: Andrew John Farrow; Nocstar; Til Eulenspiegel Subject: [DG] [Challenge 2] Next writer is up! I am sorry to announce that we're going to have to move along to the next writer. I still haven't received Arjun "Roi en Jaune" Roy's chapter after a couple of deadline extensions; it's been well over 2 weeks, and I'm just not going to allow another several-week lapse like last time. Arjun, if you can get it to me before Andrew has started work on his, I'll still post it and we'll go back to the old order, but if I get your chapter after he's already started writing, forget it. I can put you back in the lineup further down, though. So next up is Andrew John Farrow, and the writers for the two chapters after that are below, too: Chapter 4: Andrew John Farrow Chapter 5: "Nocstar" Chapter 6: Jay "Til Eulenspiegel" Dugger Dave PS: The reason I CC these announcements to the upcoming authors is just in case they've somehow gotten unsubbed from the list. We had a lot of trouble with that last time. If you only receive a copy directly from me, but not one from the list, then you may need to resubscribe. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Greg Muir [gregmuir@adelphia.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:49 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] How to get to the next Operatic performance This reminds me of a radio spot that's getting airplay around here. Your spot man comes on and is talking to you guy to guy about all those SUVs, how if you aren't up on a mountain you aren't using them right, etc. You aren't buying an SUV for the great outdoors, you want it for protection. Isn't there an SUV made for someone like you and me? Well, so-and-so makes one. (Moment of spiritual clarity, somewhat akin to Enlightenment. He proceeds.) He talks about all the features such as steel beams, quadruple airbags, crumple zones, basically all the sorts of thing you really don't plan on testing out in your brand new car. "It's an SUV for the way you drive." Who's the you, Mr. Magoo? But down here in Florida, I think this SmarTruck may be on the right track. An SUV for the way people drive down here. ;) > > Cut and pasted from SJG's Dailly Illuminator: > > "The U.S. Army TACOM National Automotive Center > (http://www.tacom.army.mil/tardec/nac/index.htm ), in partnership with > the International Armoring Corporation ( http://www.armormax.com/ ) and > Integrated Concepts & Research ( http://www.icrc-hq.com/st.htm > ),introduces the SmarTruck, a warrior-worthy vehicle packed with all the > spy goodies and optional weapons the on-the-go armorer could want. > Would-be international kidnappers will be almost as surprised by the > grenade launchers as citizens will be to discover the Army has a > national automotive center. Go here > (http://www.tacom.army.mil/tardec/nac/projects/smartrck.pdf ) to see > some specs or, if .pdfs are too slow, see the news story > (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,47860,00.html ) from > Wired." > > This info was posted a while ago, but the links above have been updated, > and the Wired story is new. > -- > Rob Shankly > ludo@bigpond.com.au > Better living through reckless experimentation. > _______________________________________ > The Delta Green Mailing List > http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ > _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Greg Muir [gregmuir@adelphia.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:49 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Mi-Go\Serpent Men connection Easter!:) > > Or the Deadly Vorpal Cthulhu might live in a cave, littered with the > remains of those men and monsters foolish enought to challenge > the Rampant > Rabbit of Unspeakable Death From Beyond! > > And we could hear one DG Agent telling another, near the > entrance to the > Chtulhucave: "But look at the _bones_, man!" > > Destroying the Cthulhu Bunny might require the Unholy Hand Grenade of > Azathoth!:) > And this of course brings forth the insane visual of the DG investigators, all with British accents, shouting "Run away, run away!" with a cheesily animated Cthulhu running after them. Wouldn't that be a strange combo, Delta Green and Monty Python? You'd have the Dead Shoggoth sketch, the Congressional Inquisition, Ministry of Silly Cults, etc. The French, of course, would be the same. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Greg Muir [gregmuir@adelphia.net] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:59 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Mi-Go\Serpent Men connection > "Hello my baby! Hello my darlin'! Hello my ragtime gal!" > > ...truly appalling, this terrible tune was accompanied by the most > bizarre cavorting and dancing, as described in the obscure writing known > only as "The Michigan Rag". The alien writhings of vaudeville are not > dead that can eternal lie. I think the story ended with the imprisonment > of Tsathoggua in the keystone of a newly dedicated building, only to be > opened by another hapless soul in the far future... > I still say the best subsequent reference to this short was in the end of Spaceballs. "Check, please!" _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of James Knevitt [psipsina@iprimus.com.au] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:06 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] DG, WWII Style Hey, Can anyone tell me where I can get the details for the DG WW2 mailing list? Thanks, James ----- Coroner: "Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go and remove a javelin from some guy's chest." Lenny Brisco: "Sometimes I wonder why you like this job." Coroner: "Free javelins." - Law & Order _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ialdaloboth *genzundheit!* [ialdaloboth@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Game Balance in DG >How many published scenarios involve the PC's facing the raw amotic energy >of Azathoth? The rampage of Cthulhu? Well, my prize-winning introducctory scenario "Homecoming" did have the characters facing down Daoloth, who's no spring chicken when it comes to whoop-ass if you piss It off. Past that - point is well-taken. The primary danger in CoC - or Delta Green - is best served by using human pawns of the mythos, servitor races of one stripe or another or weird, one-off things that get loose, somehow. They make for much more interesting adversaries than some brainless, shambling thing the size of Detroit whose only reaction to stimuli is to thrash about and gibber, thus dooming millions to death from xenotoxin. It's sort of like Fu Manchu: you can't survive a showdown with fu manchu directly - the bastard will kick your ass. He's best used as a shadowy figure whose machinations and effects are felt and witness, but whose person is rarely - if ever - seen. Sort of like the idea that investigators should never get their hands on the actual Necronomicon itself, but should be ever-tempted and teased with it from the shadows. J. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of KinginYellow@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:15 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] DG Down under? I am not sure if this has been mentioned but check out the movie 'Bad Taste' for a look at a DG op gone bad. Directed by Peter Jackson, who is helming Lord of the Rings, Bad taste is pretty much what happens when DG agents go a bit loopy. Paul Michael Janousek