From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [michelina.ponsetto@tin.it] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:50 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? Greetings. After wading through a slightly unpleasant article, looks like we all feel the same... >It's not *morally* wrong. It just kinda feels - wrong. That sort of >mechanical promiscuity that seems to me to be being addressed as a duty. That's what I was talking about in my last - admittedly rambling - post on this thread. The spark is gone. Everyone is doing it because everyone is doing it because everyone is doing it. >The point of this speculation about Virginity Exams and Bride Price is that >something is dying here and now. And it is the same thing that is dying in >these sex parties. > >What is dying in both these cases is the idea of mating for love. I really >think that is dying, dying at both ends. I'll be a soggy romantic and put it differently - what is dying is Love itself, the feeling (or the complex of feelings) at the base of all those old poems and novels and movies and songs.... I stick to my theory of sentimental underdevelopment. Feelings scare people, because they are not "safe", they are not encoded. You can't read them with the help of a handbook. Screwing is easy - you get instant feedback. With feelings you can cheat and be cheated, or just get the wrong message or give the wrong impression, and all this is so damn close and personal that it hurts most of the time. KIds get scared of it. Now looks like a fair chunk of the western world adults never outgrew the fear. Denis Diderot used to say that all women die at fifteen (you figure out what he meant for yourself - after all he was a French). A British friend of mine (beautiful young woman) more roughly lamented the fact that the intellectual development of most of her colleagues had stopped the day of their first screw. All this is starting chillingly to make sense. >At the bottom of society simple savagery will succeed it. At the top, the >moral corsetry of custom - with murderous force, drugs, and brainwashing >behind it - will be applied to keep things moving. And Carcosa will >indeed peep out there. Carcosa will get the upper classes, while the unwashed masses go on to worship Great Cthulhu in their barbarity. I wonder what of the technically-inclined, rarefied middle class you theorize - are they the chosen of Nyarlathotep? I've so far been unable to write about Carcosa in my stories. The city escapes me, and I'm just fine this way, thanks. But indeed, the idea of perverted, sterile sexuality, the act without the energy backing it, always came to me when thinking about the Yellow King's court, together with stilted art forms, boxlike edifices and atonal music. Creation without creativity, creation without the spark that gives it life. No wonder Carcosa is so hungry for artists - they have something the Court lacks completely. But entering the City means losing the ability to give life to your creations. As soon as they get you you're no longer useful. There's a lot of frustration building up in Carcosa. It's gonna be a long night. Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:46 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] buying a wife ? hows this for a freaky co-incidence , given the on going thread http://www.qxl.com/cgi-bin/qxlhome.cgi/EN/QXL/PR/U1010079228/_22398385 yours - AJ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [michelina.ponsetto@tin.it] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:01 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] buying a wife ? Aha! AJ wrote... >hows this for a freaky co-incidence , given the on going thread > >http://www.qxl.com/cgi-bin/qxlhome.cgi/EN/QXL/PR/U1010079228/_22398385 I quote from the page >Why am I auctioning my hand in marriage? > >Marriage is the one ambition I have yet to achieve. Ambitions and economics instead of love. I rest my case. I only add one small personal note - never trust a person that lists "Work" under hobbies. Normally such characters need to list "Get a life" under priorities. And now I can happily go to sleep. Goodnight! Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:31 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] buying a wife ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davide Mana" > >Why am I auctioning my hand in marriage? > > > >Marriage is the one ambition I have yet to achieve. > > Ambitions and economics instead of love. > I rest my case. What do expect from someone that lists Bill Gates as a hero? Was there a time when these people were shunned by the tribe? Maybe suspected of being possessed by really annoying demons? What would they have been like in a Neolithic culture? Mark McFadden And consider the mind of the fella that sees that and thinks "now that's the woman for me." Jesus, do the world a favor and stick to pets. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:40 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] buying a wife ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > > >Why am I auctioning my hand in marriage? > > > Ambitions and economics instead of love. > > I rest my case. > > Was there a time when these people were shunned by the tribe? Maybe > suspected of being possessed by really annoying demons? What would they have > been like in a Neolithic culture? http://www.qxl.com/cgi-bin/qxlhome.cgi/EN/QXL/PR/U1010079228/_22398385 He he he . . . Now what shall we do next? The power, the power . . . . The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:51 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davide Mana" > But indeed, the idea of perverted, sterile sexuality, the act without the > energy backing it, always came to me when thinking about the Yellow King's > court, together with stilted art forms, boxlike edifices and atonal music. > Creation without creativity, creation without the spark that gives it life. > No wonder Carcosa is so hungry for artists - they have something the Court > lacks completely. > But entering the City means losing the ability to give life to your creations. > As soon as they get you you're no longer useful. > There's a lot of frustration building up in Carcosa. Exactly. Exactly. How beautifully put!! I never considered the primarily sexual aspects of the Vibe. Now I see that they are basic, fundamental. And of course it is obvious, explicit in the stories! Nearly all of them are about precisely this. Frustration. Now how does that work on the levels of complexity above humanity?? "Frustration" in the literal but general sense, perhaps - I think - it expresses itself sexually in humanity, but that is only because sex is our strongest drive. I don't want to speculate. I will wait, and see what arises. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 7:37 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Love and Carcosa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davide Mana" > I'll be a soggy romantic and put it differently - what is dying is Love > itself, the feeling (or the complex of feelings) at the base of all those > old poems and novels and movies and songs.... Yep, and anyone that believes in Love is kidding themselves. There's just a cluster of instincts and survival tactics that some fuzzy-minded types have made a mystique out of. I've never felt it, so it's all a big scam to make us buy cards. Or a conspiracy by women to make us weak. Why are they always going on and on to make you say "I love you" huh? To break you to their will, that's why. That's all there is, a struggle for power and position, and all this "love" stuff is a decoy to distract those that can't keep their eyes on the prize. Losers. Always going on about how you can't buy love. Ha! Then how come all the real babes are hanging on the guys with the bucks, huh? Answer me that. But seriously, have you noticed that the overwhelming majority of love songs are sad? The romances that become classics usually end badly. Rhett and Scarlett, Romeo and Juliet, Tristan and Isolde, Jack and Rose, Rick and Ilsa, Arthur and Guinevere and Lancelot. It seems like it isn't really love unless they are separated or someone dies. The great love stories never seem to end happily ever after. Even the generic "Love Story" ended in death. That's how you knew it was a love story. This usually gets summed up as "love hurts," but that's nowhere near the whole story because love doesn't hurt. It's knowing love then losing it that hurts so bad. Just as in "Doctor Faustus" when the fallen angel states that Hell isn't damnation in and of itself, it's remembering what it was like in Heaven and knowing it will never be felt again that causes the pain. It's not that *love* hurts, but in order to feel love you have to become vulnerable. To feel love is to make someone else, something outside your control, necessary to you. You can't love someone else without opening yourself up. The concept of not being in control *and* being vulnerable is not very attractive to many people. Hmmmmmm. Now what kind of person simply will not ever place themselves in a position where they are not in control? > I stick to my theory of sentimental underdevelopment. Add some jealousy and denial. The people that *can't* feel love (for another) are the very types that are incapable of admitting any insufficiency in themselves. So there is no real love because they never felt it. It's all a scam. And they are *not* jealous because that would imply that they want something they can't have, and there's no way that will ever be consciously confronted. So it's got to be a scam. > No wonder Carcosa is so hungry for artists - they have something the Court > lacks completely. > But entering the City means losing the ability to give life to your creations. > As soon as they get you you're no longer useful. > There's a lot of frustration building up in Carcosa. We usually see the Vibe as something that artistic types are more susceptible to, that art and artists are somewhat decadent in the first place and a touch of Vibe will push them over the edge. But I like this idea better. It's not that artists are flirting with the abyss, the abyss is hungry for something it lacks. Artists aren't moths drawn to a flame but butterflies caught in a web. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:28 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] buying a wife? hows this for a freaky co-incidence , given the on going thread http://www.qxl.com/cgi-bin/qxlhome.cgi/EN/QXL/PR/U1010079228/_22398385 yours - AJ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andrew John Farrow [andrew.j.farrow@btinternet.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:30 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] buying a wife ? hows this for a freaky co-incidence , given the on going thread http://www.qxl.com/cgi-bin/qxlhome.cgi/EN/QXL/PR/U1010079228/_22398385 yours - AJ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jürgen Hubert [jhubert@gmx.de] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:29 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Future Societies [Was Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover?] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rayburn, Russell E." > What is dying in both these cases is the idea of mating for love. I > really > think that is dying, dying at both ends. > > At the bottom of society simple savagery will succeed it. At the top, > the > moral corsetry of custom - with murderous force, drugs, and brainwashing > behind it - will be applied to keep things moving. And Carcosa will > indeed peep out there. I think a good inspiration for this kind of future society would be Neal Stephenson's "Diamond Age": Belong to a phyle, a tribe/society/culture, or you are merely one of the Great Unwashed Masses who get what they need to live out of cheap public nanite assemblers, but who have little to live for - most cannot even read! And the most respected phyle of them all are, of course, the Neo-Victorians, who live on artificial islands assembled by nanites. How's that for Carcosa? Some more obDG: We are often speculating about how the future world of Delta Green will develop, and "Diamond Age" has a lot of potential. Nation-states become meaningless, but cultures and sub-cultures become much more important. "Either you think like we do, or you don't. Either you are one of us, or you aren't. And if you harm one of ours, you _will_ regret it." And below everyone else are the proles, who may have enough material comforts to live, but nothing to live for... - Juergen Hubert -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jussi Marttila [velcrokf@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:03 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] The Black Dahlia Found this: http://www.bethshort.com/ A resource dedicated to the Black Dahlia case. Together with Ellroy's book, you have all you need a nice 50-ties Delta Green/Kilroy campaign. Jussi M This E-mail dedicated to G. Gordon Liddy _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jürgen Hubert [jhubert@gmx.de] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:51 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Mystic symolism of the Euro The American members of this list may or may not be aware that, starting next year, twelve national currencies will cease to exist and that a new currency, the Euro, will be introduced in its place. (Actually, the Euro has been used as a "virtual currency" for quite some time, and the exchange rates have been fixed for several years now. But starting January 1st, the actual coins and notes will be introduced...) As anyone who has followed the recent threads on this list, money has mystic significance - from the idea that money was introduced by Nyarlathotep to more prosaic uses. Furthermore, the symbols on the money itself often have hidden meanings - IIRC American bills have quite a few illuminated and masonic elements in their design. The Euro, however, has even more potential for hidden meanings. The Euro notes (in denominations of €5, €10, €20, €50, €100, €200 and €500) have the same design in the entire Eurozone. The coins, however, are another matter - each of the twelve member states designs its own back sides. And it appears that even the Vatican has printed its own coins (though I have no idea if they are legal tender elsewhere) - see http://www.joelscoins.com/euro.htm. So if you have some time to spare, go to http://www.ecb.int/change/euro.htm for the designs of the notes (sorry, I couldn't find a larger image), and http://www.24carat.co.uk/eurocoinsindx.html for the design of the coins, and play a round of "spot the Mythos". If you are feeling inclined, research the history of the Euro and try to put some conspiracies into it. I look forward to what you will come up with. - Juergen Hubert -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 4:19 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Tradecraft Book On Sunday, December 16, 2001, at 04:09 PM, Shane Ivey wrote: > Not just lists and maps, but dramatic guides to what the players or > NPCs can > actually *do* and what they can't do, how long it ought to take, what > the > process is like for the character(s) involved and for observers, that > kind > of thing. I can talk as smart as the next layman (strange phenomena > like > Messrs. Layne and Vortisch excluded) about firefights and criminal > procedure, and I've done a webpage or three, but when it comes to > realistic > depictions of hacking I have a little trouble telling shit from shinola. > And yet I want to be able to do it without just glossing it over with > "You > hack for a while. Roll Computer Use." Ever played Shadowrun? Early versions had a complex, detailed version of the netrunning system. It sucked. It didn't make sense to those of us who do computer work for a living (and I'm just a cable mole/switch fiddler) and was a horrible drag to the game. (A single character who's special skill is, essentially, played in a solo adventure.) Very poor, and the updates origionally didn't help. The last revision for SR2 was a godsend however... It abstracted things a lot, and made things make much more sense, while occasionally allowing for going deeper into detail when roleplaying allowed. Oh, and it basically compiled down to a bunch of 'Computer Use' rolls, except with the skill broken into many specialties to represent finding the target, breaking through the defenses, obtaining control ('root' in modern terms) and seeking out and finding the data needed in the pile of unneeded data. OK, so the Shadowrun Bit Fondlers club can meet next door to the Gun Fondlers, see? -- Brett _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Anarchy [Anarchy@agentsofchaos.org] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:09 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... That quote is from the CoC Supplemenet "Horror on the Orient Express", page 99 in book 2, bottom of the left half of the page.. My players decided not to bribe the old man but to try to silence him, which they did, with a machete. After killing him, they rolled his body up in some carpet and threw it off a bridge. So first, the writer was wrong. ;) Second, my players are the type to throw gasoline on all the people in Innsmouth and sort through the ashes later. They know their weaponry, armor, vehicle modification, and they like to use their knowledge to get/make the best equipment before heading out to battle evil. Anyone else got any players like this? Players who want to mount machineguns on their car and make Semtex, C4's improvised counterpart? Lemme know. ;) They're the reason I'm writing the Equipment Compendium. Scott _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Shane Ivey [shane@revolutionsf.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:18 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... > Anyone else got any players like this? Yep. Lovecraft and thematic consistency notwithstanding, I've never been in a CoC group that didn't go in that direction, from the murder to the machine guns. Personally I advocate a SAN roll for implementing the Machete Protocol on a harmless old man. But I also advocate the "getting used to this shit" rules and applying them here - once the players have lost as much SAN as they can possibly lose from hacking harmless old men to death, they don't have to lose any more. Shane Ivey web, writing, etc. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Berin Kinsman [deltagreen@unclebear.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:44 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Delta Green De Profundis Has anyone contemplated a Delta Green-style De Profundis game? I'm considering setting up a weblog specifically for this -- anyone interested? -berin ******** http://unclebear.com/deltagreen "According to Gallup polls, only 10% of Americans say they hold a secular view of the world, while 44% believe in strict biblical creationism. Four million also believe they have been abducted by Aliens. The Economist urges [presidential] candidates to address the vital question this finding raises. Should schools teach survival courses for those threatened with alien abduction?" -- From the Economist, regarding the teaching of evolution in schools _____________________________________________________________ UNCLE BEAR: news, commentary and community for the escapist mind http://unclebear.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Berin Kinsman [deltagreen@unclebear.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 3:33 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Delta Green De Profundis And in response to my own post... I've set up a Delta Green/De Profundis weblog at http://deltaprofundis.blogspot.com -- anyone wishing to participate can contact me offline at deltagreen@unclebear.com and I'll grant you rights. -berin ******** http://unclebear.com/deltagreen http://deltaprofundis.blogspot.com _____________________________________________________________ UNCLE BEAR: news, commentary and community for the escapist mind http://unclebear.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 3:34 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... Sometimes you have to be cruel... (see below) On Thursday, December 20, 2001, at 03:09 PM, Anarchy wrote: > That quote is from the CoC Supplemenet "Horror on the Orient Express", > page > 99 in book 2, bottom of the left half of the page.. > My players decided not to bribe the old man but to try to silence him, > which > they did, with a machete. After killing him, they rolled his body up in > some > carpet and threw it off a bridge. So first, the writer was wrong. ;) Some players can't get beyond violence (See KotDT Issue any) and you just have to work with it. Others will grow beyond it if given a chance. Anyway, I'm dealing with a similar situation in a Deadlands game I run. One (and to be honest, two or three) players have the attitude of killing anyone that bothers them. I'm dealing with this in a somewhat bizarre way: They now control the town they are fated to protect having almost-but-not-quite saved the mayor fom a nasty deranged lunatic. There reward is increased responsibility, or a chance for extreme bloodshed. Both have their faults, but bloodshed will likely make them a target for attacks by cavalry and the like who see the heroes as the abominations. Anyway, the types of adventures for the heroes will definitely fight against the tendency for excessive violence. They now are actually mre accountable even though their position as an 1870's era mayor of a small town has a ot of leeway. Their town will have a lot of focus due to the political environment. Let's apply this to Delta Green: Beginning agents have a lot of leeway... Their actions aren't really watched closely and they aren't particularly huge targets for Majestic-12, etc. later, as they learn more, they become much more visible targets and must act more subtly. Their reputation may spread, especially if they have any distinctive traits (even catchphrases and the like, or vehicles). have a few investigations foiled by onlookers, groupies, or the like. Hey, it's still CoC. Who says that little old man isn't the only one who knows the really important ritual to banish the horrible critter? > Second, my players are the type to throw gasoline on all the people in > Innsmouth and sort through the ashes later. They know their weaponry, > armor, > vehicle modification, and they like to use their knowledge to get/make > the > best equipment before heading out to battle evil. Anyone else got any > players like this? Players who want to mount machineguns on their car > and > make Semtex, C4's improvised counterpart? Lemme know. ;) They're the > reason > I'm writing the Equipment Compendium. The main thing is all of this attracts attention and takes time. I used to work in close proximity to custom metalworkers, and fabricating the parts for a James-Bond-style car with concealed weapons would take a LONG time, as wel as special skills, and assume that time's much longer if there's no suppport/intelligence from the car manufacturer (to help make modified body panels, etc.). Mounting the weapons externally would be even worse. Quite obvious, and any and all superiors will probably just give the agents a withering glance and mark them as the team for really suicidal missions. From my point of view, DG may have 'cowboy' agents, but even they seem to take the idea of keeping things discreet very seriously. I'm going to be running DG soon, and a very common setup will be the players' agents getting assigned to a mission. Their boss may not know why,,, The federal government is a huge bureaucracy, so even a relatively high-level desk job may just do things that he's been told by his boss without questioning. So a DG-agent need as a crew to take care of something, and pulls strings to get DG agents assigned to the case. But the boss isn't omnipotent, so the agents are only assigned absic gear... Pistols, cell-phones, and laptops, with other gear available if a need is proven. Also, the agents never really legally 'own' the majority of their equipment. Most gear is provided by one or more government agencies, and they can certainly use gear recovered from cultists during an adventure, but afterwards it's all evidence and anything sizeable will have to be turned in. And agents have the same problems as everyone else buying weapons with their own funds... Remember, it's not The A-Team meets Cthulu, Unless that's your kinda game. Hope this helps. -- Brett _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 3:37 PM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... Agreed. SAN loss rolls are called for whenever you could hear someone describing the actions as "wanton cruelty". A lower SAN roll for a perceived 'mercy killing' might also be in order (Thinking of those who have protomater embedded in their bodies... play up their pain enough and a .45 sleeping pill looks like a good idea). As to major gun-fondling in DG: I tend to think it's PART of the fun. Just getting the ordinance can be an adventure itself. Think of the DEA agent who "looses" evidence so the heroin dealer goes free... and so the dealer can pay the players back by delivering them a case of Kalashnikovs. I could see a SAN roll the next time the player sees a teenage addict with a needle in his/her arm. Explosives are another fun one... I can see a visit to the site from ATF. Use something special, like C4 or a claymore, and add Army CID / NCIS to the mix. Having them chase they players (in addition to the cult-du-joir and Majestic) can make things reeeeal interesting. -----Original Message----- From: Shane Ivey [mailto:shane@revolutionsf.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 3:18 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... > Anyone else got any players like this? Yep. Lovecraft and thematic consistency notwithstanding, I've never been in a CoC group that didn't go in that direction, from the murder to the machine guns. Personally I advocate a SAN roll for implementing the Machete Protocol on a harmless old man. But I also advocate the "getting used to this shit" rules and applying them here - once the players have lost as much SAN as they can possibly lose from hacking harmless old men to death, they don't have to lose any more. Shane Ivey web, writing, etc. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:18 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... Another way to solve the brute force/violence habit is to plan for it accordingly. I had a plot where there was a cultist using a crystal skull. The party did just what I wanted, which was to smash the crystal skull. Which made things much, much, much worse. Likewise, for other ops, have consequences for the shortest path type solutions. They chop up a suspect? A 7 state manhunt, with the next series of games having the PCs trying to evade the trouble. The very real possibility that they might have to give up one of their own to avoid the heat. Sure, maybe they'll get very clever and frame someone properly, but the lesson is there. If they feel like juggling cover stories for all their egregious messes, well, fine... but they'll fail, eventually. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:37 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... From: "Anarchy" > Second, my players are the type to throw gasoline on all the people in > Innsmouth and sort through the ashes later. Ah, those were the days! When I hear people bleating about how "Delta Green promotes shoot-em-up style gaming, unlike the genteel 'vanilla' CoC," I like to ask them whether their 1920s CoC group has ever done anything like the above. Very few can honestly answer in the negative. Any game, from Feng Shui to ...well, I can't think of a really non-violent RPG to put on the other end of the scale--anyway, any game is going to end up being as violent, or not, as the players want it to be. Sure, it's good (depending on the direction the GM is trying to take) to steer them into new paths of gratification--I just mean it's not the system. Dave PS: I'm leaving for the States tomorrow, so I'm unsubbing from the DGML now. Anyone who needs to contact me can try to reach me via chaucerwatch23@yahoo.com , though I don't know how much of a chance to check it I'll have. (Nocstar, I expect to see your Challenge chapter there the next time I look...) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 7:39 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... On 20 December 2001, "Anarchy" wrote: >Second, my players are the type to throw gasoline on all the people in >Innsmouth and sort through the ashes later. They know their weaponry, >armor, >vehicle modification, and they like to use their knowledge to get/make the >best equipment before heading out to battle evil. Anyone else got any >players like this? Players who want to mount machineguns on their car and >make Semtex, C4's improvised counterpart? Lemme know. ;) They're the reason >I'm writing the Equipment Compendium. While this approach may sometimes be necessary, it is my experience that overuse of it tends to draw entirely too much attention from the wrong sort of people! (Yes, I know, I'm a charter member of the Delta Green Gunfondlers, but there can be too much of a good thing!):) A lot of DG teams, unfortunately, take the "DnD approach" -- "If it isn't a member of our party, KILL IT!" This MO has some definite drawbacks even in a fantasy world, as you cannot always operate even there with impunity, much as you wish you could, and think you can. The word is eventually going to get out that travelers tend to disappear on the road just before or after you show up in the village... that people happen to drop dead while you're in town, that the town watch has to respond to more "incidents" while you're visiting, that monsters come _looking_ for you (wrecking taverns before you can even get the nightly brawl going) and such... And this news somehow tends to travel faster than your own party!:) In the modern world, especially now, overuse of dynamite and machine guns, and/or casual slaughter of innocents, may get you classed as the sort of folks we're dropping bombs on, over in Afghanistan! And that makes it harder for even your own Friendlies to see you as the good guys! Plus, there is the personal danger to the perps --er, the agents, who only _think_ they're indestructible! Even if they don't attract the attention of something that sneers at their puny dynamite and flamethrowers, they may fall by their own hand when (not if) they miscalculate... (I'm thinking specifically here of an incident from a local game, involving a moronic DG agent who made a very final mistake with a "Jackie Chan" vest loaded with dynamite! And one from "Traveller", in which the party started a firefight, then took cover behind several crates of explosives!) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jeff Ewing [ambjpe@gis.net] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:00 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:50:16 +0100, Davide Mana wrote: >Greetings. > >After wading through a slightly unpleasant article, looks like we >all feel >the same... Ah, good old Annalee Newitz. Her writing is a bit leaden, dogmatic. In explanation, I'd just mention: 1) She's from Irvine. 2) She's the single offspring of 2 shrinks. Such individuals tend to be eccentric. 3) She used a Mac Classic all through grad school in the mid-90's and didn't know open source from an open manhole then. Recent converts tend to be enthusiastic. Strange to say, *I* almost had sex with her once. I decided against because. . .well, I didn't love her. I'm a disgrace to my sex, I know. Just put me in the > soggy romantic camp with TGC and the good doctor, or at least the "no chemistry, no fun" one. But enough prurient gossip. What I really wanted to talk about was Irvine, and it's ilk. I think it not unlikely that the middle classes would succumb along with the new upper classes to the vibe. Not only because, as Andy reminds us, the MC traditionally apes the UC, but because you can see it happening now, in Irvine, and other cushy middle class suburbs spread across the dark fields of the republic. Now, to be sure, it's more colorful to have the Yellow Sign appear in a New Orleans mansion, Hyannisport compound, or some arcology in New Mexico, but consider this example: in my sister-in-law's slightly run-down post-war suburb, the trend is to raze the cheesy ranch-styles of the period and fill almost the entire (largish) lot with a McMansion. The message is clear: Why go outside? It's not air-conditioned, the remotes don't work, and you might have to interact with someone who *shudder* has a smaller house than you. Better to stay inside, wrapped in 56" projection TV illusions. In every dream house a heartache. A million courts of the Yellow King. And by the way, this: >A British friend of mine (beautiful young woman) more roughly >lamented the >fact that the intellectual development of most of her colleagues had >stopped the day of their first screw. is very profound. -- Jeff Ewing, ambjpe@gis.net on 12/20/2001 _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 7:16 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Ewing" #> But enough prurient gossip. No!! More!! More!! > message is clear: Why go outside? It's not air-conditioned, the > remotes don't work, and you might have to interact with someone who > *shudder* has a smaller house than you. Better to stay inside, > wrapped in 56" projection TV illusions. Faith Popcorn called it "Cocooning". That's part of it too: the retreat from public spaces to totally controlled, private, arenas. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:45 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Ewing" > 1) She's from Irvine. and > What I really wanted to talk about was Irvine, and it's ilk. Sorry to butt in, but I think many of the faithful readers out there might need a little more info on Irvine. 1) It's in California, in case you were wondering. 2) Further, it's "behind the Orange Curtain" as we Angelenos say. The relationship between Los Angeles County and Orange County is usually a strained one. Cliches and prejudices abound. The cliches (as they see each other) would go something like: Orange County: Ned Flanders and the comic book store guy L. A. County: Homer Simpson, Apu, and Troy McClure ("You might remember me from such X as Fillintheblank and Whatever.") Orange County: Republicans L. A. County: Democrats Orange County: unrelentingly White L. A. County: "Urban" Neither is even close to being true, but we're talking image Orange County: Hobbitown and environs L. A. County: Mordor Orange County: the suburbs L. A. County: the mean streets Orange County: Stepford wives L. A. County: Feminazis Orange County: smug L. A. County: smug Orange County: clean and new L. A. County: filthy and corroded Orange County: suburban skinheads and Young Republicans L. A. County: 90210 and Straight Outta Compton Orange County: isolationist L. A. County: melting pot Orange County: Dean Koontz L. A. County: James Ellroy Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Chris Womack [jcwomack@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:43 PM To: deltagreen revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? on 12/20/01 8:15 PM, Andy Robertson at andywrobertson@clara.co.uk wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Ewing" >> message is clear: Why go outside? It's not air-conditioned, the >> remotes don't work, and you might have to interact with someone who >> *shudder* has a smaller house than you. Better to stay inside, >> wrapped in 56" projection TV illusions. > > > Faith Popcorn called it "Cocooning". That's part of it too: the retreat > from public spaces to totally controlled, private, arenas. Let's take just a sec to consider the migration path as evidenced in the architecture of the typical American sub-upper-class house over the past century: Front porch, replete with porch swing and/or rocking chair--socializing with one's neighbors, watching the kids play in the street. People stop socializing with the neighbors; the party moves to the back yard, where there are fewer prying eyes to contend with. Decks and patios. Privacy fences. Socializing with guests, watching the kids play in the back yard. And just as we've lost the porch-swing and the patio on the outsides of our houses, we've also left behind the parlor and the "multi-purpose" room (whether it was called a "rec" room or a "rumpus" room or a "game" room, you know--the one with the wet bar and the pool table and the kids' toys strewn across the floor). Now it is, of course, as Jeff, Andy, et al. describe it--we've retreated completely indoors. But it's not even just about the TV now--it's the whole "home theater system" package. The DVD player. The digital cable. DishTV. Tivo. We no longer entertain ourselves, or one another. We all just watch TV. An interesting side-effect to this retreat from the outdoor world into our little cocoons is the upsurge in the sales of (or at least the advertising for) air-freshening products. Little electric plug-in scented oil warmers. Fabric deodorizing sprays. Air filters and purifiers. We want to live our lives indoors, but we don't want to have to smell ourselves doing it. If the sense of smell is the most evocative of memory, then what do we make of this push to deaden--or mask--the odors of living? C Chris Womack jcwomack@earthlink.net Keeper of the DGML (Ret'd.) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Anarchy [Anarchy@agentsofchaos.org] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:58 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... I ran the Karotechia opener in Countdown and the players were the ones to kill Fiona Lin-Wei, for example. My players have seen the darkest depths of man in real life, before, during, and after September when we here in NY got to breathe in the bodies of other consumed human beings. I wonder what our sanity loss was that day. Scott _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:17 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Robertson" > But remember, the new elites will only > have a moderate overlap with the old ones. We are not talking "old money" > here. You've brought this up from time to time. New money and old money become indistinguishable from each other by the next generation. Money is the great equalizer. Perhaps old money can exclude the nouveau riche from their reindeer games, but that just means the new money builds their own playgrounds to exclude everyone else from. The magic number seems to be 3. By the time an eldest son tacks a "III" on their name, they're old money. Of course, that's just the way it is out here in the colonies where tradition only goes back 200 years. Places where stone has been in place long enough to get worn down from foot traffic might have a longer turnaround cycle. > The way see it, the immediate future is a division into a small group of > very rich and a massive underclass, with a technically competent and high > salaried middle class in much smaller numberss than present. That technically competent and high salaried middle class is rapidly discovering that they better get a shitload of "fuck you money" while they can, because that high salaried position will go bye-bye with the next merger and no lean and mean companies want to get caught holding the retirement bag. There is no security in competence. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Nick Brownlow [stabernide@netscape.net] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 2:42 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? <> In America, maybe mate. Over here rampant classism is still alive and well. <> Oh, I hear you. Anytime anyone wants to set up a hugely profitable internet scam, just give me a call. cheers, Nick -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jussi Marttila [velcrokf@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:22 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Orange County vs Ellay >From: "The Lizard King" > Sorry to butt in, but I think many of the faithful readers out there >might >need a little more info on Irvine. > > 1) It's in California, in case you were wondering. > > 2) Further, it's "behind the Orange Curtain" as we Angelenos say. The >relationship between Los Angeles County and Orange County is usually a >strained one. Cliches and prejudices abound. > Also, in Edward Bunker's (The guy who played Mr Blue in Reservoir Dogs) book "No beast so fierce", the protagonist uses Orange County as a way of escaping Los Angeles. Since Orange County is not in theory a part of the city, the police there don't put as much attention to what happens in Ellay. In theory. What else: oh, check out Bunker's books. Very good view on the Ellay underworld. Much stuff which can be used in DG. Jussi, armed robbery novel _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Bomias1@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:03 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Surely the group will not use force on an old man.... In a message dated 12/20/01 3:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Anarchy@agentsofchaos.org writes: > Second, my players are the type to throw gasoline on all the people in > Innsmouth and sort through the ashes later. They know their weaponry, armor, > vehicle modification, and they like to use their knowledge to get/make the > best equipment before heading out to battle evil. Anyone else got any > players like this? Players who want to mount machineguns on their car and > make Semtex, C4's improvised counterpart? Lemme know. ;) Well of course! We have had sessions where the agents lost more SAN from the penalties I levy for performing atrocities than from Mythos exposure. However, I suppose this is all just karma for me, because I am just the sort of player, when I play, that would do this sort of thing myself. The Thug Whisperer "Back off Man! I'm a scientist." ------- Peter Venkman From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Berin Kinsman [deltagreen@unclebear.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:26 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Looks more like a Mi-Go to me... http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011220/ts/imdf20122001233125a.html This still image from an underwater video camera shows what is believed to be a new species of deep-sea squid encountered off the island of Oahu in May 2001. The squid in this image stretches more than 17 feet long and was spotted by the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute's remotely operated submarine at a depth of over 10,000 feet. According to an article appearing in the December 21, 2001 issue of the journal Science, examples of the squid have been spotted in the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific oceans. REUTERS/MBARI/ho -berin ******** Conspiracy and Modern Horror Resources http://unclebear.com/deltagreen Delta Green: De Profundis http://deltaprofundis.blogspot.com _____________________________________________________________ UNCLE BEAR: news, commentary and community for the escapist mind http://unclebear.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 11:02 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] How's this for a Friendly cover? ---- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > > Orange County: Hobbitown and environs > L. A. County: Mordor Aha! First spontaneous intrusion of the LOTR meme into the DGML . . . . I am watching the effect of the movie with some interest . . . It used to be an L A County thing, countercultural, but I think we will find that Orange County likes it very much. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:13 PM To: Dgrpg (E-mail) Subject: [DG] Agent Vacation spot Chased by a pederast shoggoth? Those pesky tcho-tcho's keep inviting you over for dinner? Why not get away from it all? http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011221/od/bunker_dc_1.html _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/