From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 1:18 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] My Thoughts on the Cult of Transcendence BTW, it goes without saying that Delta Green is another front for the Cult of Transcendence. A cabal of Feds and LEOs that have special knowledge of what's *really* going on, and willing to do whatever it takes to hold off the Endtimes. "Whatever it takes" of course includes falsifying or stealing evidence, assassination, killing civilians and innocents, conspiring against the government for its own good, ignoring laws and burning books. You know, basically saving civilization from itself with the highest motives. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 1:11 AM To: DGML Subject: [DG] The Lizard King is a Fag. I knew it all along: http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1996.04/msg00047.html All that obsession with Precious Essence... the drinking... the unexplained absences... the cross-dressing... interior decorating... it all makes sense now. Homosexual! The Naval Investigative Service was right all along! Homosexual Reptoid aliens want to probe the butts of all straight men! Ed Wood, the Mafia, The Belgian Fraud! The EURO!!! It all makes sense! Note, the following site is a complete lie: http://reptoids.com/meninblk.htm The Man in Black is : disavowing any knowledge of gay reptoids. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:32 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Lizard King is a Fag. ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Man in Black" > I knew it all along: Reg was right, you know nothing. Your obsession with reptilian footware has lead you to more of the usual erroneous assumptions. And you know what happens when you make assumptions don't you? That's right, you make an ass out of U and mption. And don't think Mption isn't keeping notes. > http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1996.04/msg00047.html The true conspirators are in one of the very first lines. "(Where Did 50,000 Sets of Testicles Go?)" Obviously it's a cover for the willy-stealers. Dillinger, Napolean -- and who says they wait until the victim is dead? Can you imagine what a chip Hitler would have had on his shoulder if they got both of his? Do you think recent history would be so fucked if it wasn't for EOWM wielding the Gland of Glory? > All that obsession with Precious Essence... You missed the point. I suppose you *approve* of polluting children's ice cream. Children's ice cream MiB! > the drinking... I use alcohol as a preservative. > the unexplained absences... I have explained every absence you are cleared to know about to the best of my recollection at this point in time. You don't want to open that particular can of worm holes or I'll have to question you about some "missing time." > the cross-dressing... As if I'd leave a bare cross around with all the angles exposed. > interior decorating... What I do with my internal organs is none of your business. It's a lizard thing, you wouldn't understand. But I think it's typical of the MIB organization (if that isn't too grandiose a description) to see something sinister in a religious and cultural practice that harms no one. A little like some other men in black with an obsession about foreskins. Your lizard jackboots are showing. > it all makes sense now. Homosexual! The Naval Investigative Service was > right all along! More apologies and defense of that organization. Look, my hetero credentials are impeccable. Go ahead, try to pecc them; you won't get far. Here's a testimonial (if that's not a contradiction in terms) of the young lady I "had" in the back of a limo at the Prom: "I wept. It changed my life. Now that I'm a professional golfer and living with an ex-nun I realize that we've come a long way, baby. I'd probably be living a life of quiet married desperation if it wasn't for that, uh, event at the Prom. In a weird way I owe it all to the Lizard King." Name withheld by request > Homosexual Reptoid aliens want to probe the butts of > all straight men! This is an indication of your faulty source of information. It's the straight Reptoid aliens (who are all born female BTW) that want to probe the butts of all straight men. So far they've got Abbott, Martin, Rowan, Burns and Al Gore. Why do you think they keep shuffling Cheney from one secret base to another? > Ed Wood, the Mafia, The Belgian Fraud! The EURO!!! It > all makes sense! Only when you look at it in light of the Euro Disney Dollar while eating a nonexistent Belgian waffle wearing Angora. And there is no such thing as the Mafia, we got that word straight from a Man in Basic Black With Pearls. A "pearl necklace with earrings" no doubt. > Note, the following site is a complete lie: > > http://reptoids.com/meninblk.htm More disinformation. Really, this is beneath you. They're here. They're queer. They wear black. Deal with it. > The Man in Black is : disavowing any knowledge of gay reptoids. Yeah, like I'm going to trust a guy writing from a place where people worship cephalopods. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Julian Breen [jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:36 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Vacant lots [Was Re:Twilight Zone] The Lizard King wrote: >> >> Ah, "Perchance to Dream". That one in particular stuck in my mind as a >> youth. >> > > > Incidentally, the midway and roller coaster in that episode no longer >exist. They were both at "the Pike" which was like a carny that put down >roots and stayed in Long Beach. > As time marched on and the Navy base was scaled down and eventually closed, >the Pike reinvented itself by chasing away the prostitutes and tattoo >parlors (well, most of them) and calling itself Queen's Park. Lizard King, you've just reminded me of something. I need to check my town records. Where I live there is also a Queen's Park. It houses a bell tower called The Carillon which is a WWI memorial/museum. It is also an infrequent suicide spot. That park used to be one fun place as a kid. Part of it was filled with a maze like section of tall untended hedges that were genuinely spooky. You had the feeling when in there that you could end up someplace else on the way out. The town council benevolently removed this maze about a decade ago due to several undisclosed 'incidents'. At the back of this park was a house. I remember noticing it one day when I was walking down a seldom traversed street. There was a large hedge and an overgrown path leading from it. Curious, I looked and saw that it lead to an old Victorian brownstone. It was deserted and very much the archetypal haunted house. This seemed strange. Although I didn't use this street much I _had_ been here before, plenty of times, but I had never noticed it. It sat incongruously between a St. John's Ambulance branch, and a copyshop, looking like a stubborn elderly neighbour refusing eviction. I made a mental note to come back and investigate it at some point. I don't know why I didn't then, I remember having time, I just put it off. Maybe it was for the best. I forgot about it completely for (IIRC) two or three months. But the town didn't. When I went back it didn't exist anymore. It was (and still is) now a used-car showroom. A completely different building, the hedge and garden were also gone, replaced by a tarmac forecourt. I remember being surprised at just how quickly this new building had been conceived though. It looked to be settling in just nicely. -- Julian Breen _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dirk R. Festus Festerling [festusdirk@yahoo.de] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:05 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Vacant lots [Was Re:Twilight Zone] --- Julian Breen schrieb: very > much the archetypal haunted house. . It sat incongruously > between a St. John's > Ambulance branch, already ranted on the illuminated potential of st. johns ambulance and order. and a copyshop mmh? gates into librarian l-space (oops, wrong universe).... is xerox more carcosian than carbon-copies? and new used-car-lots... well, well, well. should get some sleep later in this year. festus __________________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de Ihre E-Mail noch individueller? - http://domains.yahoo.de _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dirk R. Festus Festerling [festusdirk@yahoo.de] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:20 AM To: delta-green Subject: [DG] 1960´s creative pisces funding ? Fwd: [ArmyRecognition] Digest Number 532 > > published under the auspices of the Weapons > Research Establishment, > > Salisbury (has changed its name know, and off the > top of my head > > cannot remember what to), snip > > " The article expressed some doubt as to whether a > 7.62mm GPMG was > > ever actually fitted on the roof. This > modification was eventually > > agreed at a cost of £24,000 per vehicle! Although > the GPMG was not > > often seen in use, Bovington Tank Museum have a > photo of one on a > > Hornet." £24,000 !!in the 1960's, we would be > talking in todays > > money of some £280-290,000. > > I agree with you that seems a totally absurd amount > which I have > repeatedly queried, but assured is correct! The guy > who told me that > was at a series of high level meetings envolving > ministers, who were > resisting any further expenditure at a time when the > project was > about to go over budget. I am assured that the final > stages of > Malkara development & to provide the 24 operational > Hornets reached > £90 million!I have received a vast of information > from this guy who > in all other respects has been spot on with info. __________________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de Ihre E-Mail noch individueller? - http://domains.yahoo.de _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 8:26 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Data centers Again, replying to some messages that I pushed under the rug due to the intrusion of real life! On Friday, December 14, 2001, at 09:47 PM, The Lizard King wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >> Don't forget the floor, either. It's commonly raised with several >> inches >> of clearance beneath. The tiles (The ones we use are metal with a solid >> concrete core that is heavy and likely bulletproof) hide a rat's nest >> of >> cables for power, networking, and other materials as well as cooling >> and >> the like. it'd be near=impossible for a man to crawl around in the >> floor, but what about that /thing?/ > > Not all computer floors are so low-slung. The ones I worked with were a > major part of the computer cooling system, so they were raised to knee > height. Air conditioning was directed under the floor to send cool air > up > through the open bottoms of the computers and peripherals. A man could > crawl > around under there quite effectively, and I did a lot of that. The > environment I was in was a combination of R&D and manufacturing, so the > configuration was never static. Rerouting the bus and tag cables from > the > mainframe was a daily occurrence; we had a routine of laying out cables > to > the new config and then "bouncing" the mainframe to un-and re-connect > cables > in the middle of a work day. It could be done if you did it within 30 > seconds. Sounds fun! A memory of my current employer's previous location was our mainframe (a Prime for the true computer geeks in the audience) that was essentially on life support. Cables for serial connectivity (bridged to telnet, I believe) as well as some creative wiring for the washing-machine-like 9-track tape drives made the area behind it a real mess... Nicely symbolic of all the Cthulhoid horrors whith hordes of tentacles... Sad thing is, because of a move we ended up buying another of the friggin' things (used, this was 98 and the company that made Primes went out of business in the 80s) that was finally shut down in 2001 (and for the record, no it wasn't Y2k compatible!) The care and feeding this required made it resemble some sort of dormant great old one receiving offerings... > It was a rat's nest under there, but you could get from A to B with > backtracking and improvisation. But it was cold down there. Arrrr, cold > as > Scapa Flow with the wind howlin' down yer neck. Never had to deal with that, but an old complex will have so much wiring around that no one really knows where it all goes... > All that cable-hauling led to situations you wouldn't find in the > normal > data center. The original had water fire extinguishers under the floor, > and > a few times workers pulling on cables managed to snap off an > extinguisher > head under the floor, which led to flooding and all kinds of fun. A lot > of > my floor diving was to prevent that from recurring. And for those who don't know... Some places still have Halon systems, that can be deadly if you're caught in it. > When summer came and all that hot Southern California sun came blasting > through the big windows of the 13th floor, the air conditioning couldn't > handle the load. Portable air-conditioning units were rolled in, but > since > there were no openings to dump the heat out of, the ducts were aimed > into > the drop ceiling. > This weirdest thing about all this was that the business the company > was in > was designing and manufacturing big equipment for use in big data > centers. Another good point... Maybe the reason that building has all that AC isn't because of bizarre experiments... they just have a really good data center! -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 8:31 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Internet stuff On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 12:33 AM, Gil Trevizo wrote: > At 02:04 PM 12/28/2001 +0100, Janusz A. Urbanowicz wrote: >> Because 'computer use' is a completely different thing that making a >> successfull query into search engines. > > You do realize that in the United States, most searches in libraries > are no longer done with paper card catalogs but with computerized > search engines, which, in my experience, work almost exactly like > Internet search engines. There's a great story in, I believe, "Cthulu's Heirs" about the effects of this... Kinda along the lines of why you don't really want to try to scan and OCR a copy of the Necronicon or The King In Yellow. -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 8:14 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Cryptonomicon (I'm clearing up some old mail here... Hope these returning threads interest everyone!) On Friday, December 14, 2001, at 06:08 PM, Andy Robertson wrote: > I know exacly what you mean. And that wierd air-conditioning feel. > And the > blank, sourceless (multisourced), light, without dept or perspective. > The > separation, the "wrong" acoustics. > > If these places were older, they would host many, many, ghosts. Even better, the larger hosting sites like Globalcenter (which has gone under, IIRC) are, from what I hear, built in warehouse-type buildings. The best comparison (or a great hook for a character going insane here) would be to a prison or lab because each client has a separate 'cage' (usually made of cheap bars or wire mesh to make entering it noisy if nothing else) to host their gear in. An investigator loses it here and is possessed by the delusion that these cages each contain hulking monsters or creatures that must be freed... If/when I run the adventure I'm working on focusing around an NSA subbasement computer room, it'll be simpler near the main machine for effect. Essentially a giant room lit only where necessary. -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 8:53 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] CoC : Things you'd change in a New Edition. On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 04:53 PM, Ross Howard wrote: >> I'd like to see all HTH skills reduced to a Brawling skill with >> fist/punch, >> kick, headbutt, etc. being manuevers >> that modify the base Brawling Skill Level. (ie, Brawl of 10% but Your >> PUNCHING add +15% or something) >> HTH is not that common in CoC, and it takes to many skill points to be >> even >> half-way decent in a fistfight > > Hear hear! I must admit, one of the few things that bugs me about the > COC system is the difficulty of making some characters as good as they > should be. Skill proliferation doesn't help. As an interesting way of handling things perhaps the Feng Shui game system should be looked at. From what I've heard, it uses two skills: Fighting and Shooting (possibly different names) and assumes players are mature enough to explain these properly. Tricks and the like are available in a system that appears to be superficially similar to the D20 feats (or simple edges/hinderances). > Regarding the Computer Use skill, I find it works fine as it is, but > then I am not at all technically minded and tend to fudge a lot in that > area. However, it would be great to see some hacking guidelines such as > those Alex was suggesting. I think the trick here is to know how to run the attack. First, the resource must be found and the basic system checked out (a computer use roll) then penetrated (computer use/cryptography, with perhaps a luck check to avoid leaving evidence if it fails) and then the data must be colelcted and analyzed (computer use/specific skills/library use). For a quick and dirty investigation, this should work and doesn't require getting too technical. Of course, for really secret stuff, requiring a physical intrusion or social engineering may be a necessity. -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 8:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] CoC : Things you'd change in a New Edition. On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 05:03 AM, ReflectingSkin wrote: > Hello Gang, > This wee little line got me thinking, for example - > > Credit Rating = Credibility/Notoriety > Library Use = Research This wouldn't be a bad idea. Credit Rating is for some reason a difficult concept to get player's (and Keepers!) minds around. In the case of research, it should be stated that this works with competency in a field, not replacing it. > I'd like to see all HTH skills reduced to a Brawling skill with > fist/punch, > kick, headbutt, etc. being manuevers > that modify the base Brawling Skill Level. (ie, Brawl of 10% but Your > PUNCHING add +15% or something) > HTH is not that common in CoC, and it takes to many skill points to be > even > half-way decent in a fistfight The defaults aren't bad though... I'm planning on my second test CoC/DG session tomorrow most likely (I'm still learning the system, especially from a Keeper's point of view) > And I'd like to see the Sanity System revised...The San System in > Unknown Armies, strikes me as so much better, some sort of horrible > hybrid > San System would probably be best. I think the problem/really good thing is that CoC's Sanity system is intentionally indistinct so the Keeper can make the various features picked up fit the characters and campaign. However, it is a bid of a nuisance since for beginners the difference between current sanity and the SAN stat can be a pain. > Hmmm what else while I'm at it? Anyone know what Chaosium's role is in the d20 CoC? From what it sounds like, they are merely licensers of game rights to WotC. Will this be a good game, or merely a bad imitation? -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 9:20 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Internet stuff On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 07:11 PM, The Lizard King wrote: > Imagine my surprise when I'd coach technicians and Help Desk staff who > could bring up Edit to edit an autoexec.bat or somesuch, but could not > navigate in it without a mouse. Never learned the keystrokes to move > around > or cut&paste. > When confronted with a C:\ they would freeze, unaware of commands such > as > dir or cd. They had been through school, had enough credentials to be > hired > to support the users, but only knew the latest versions of hardware and > software. Computer Use isn't rapidly becoming a given for the general > public; only in our little world. A pet peeve of mine is desktop techs who are unwilling to learn things beyond their niche. In my case, I did help desk for a while, supported a small college graphics department, and now do telecomm, and one reason for my level of respect from the department is that I know enough to fake it... If I'm put in front of a unix box, NT, MacOS, Cisco, or even Tadiran I can fake it. Some of our guys seem to lose it if it's not the current version of Windows and show no interest in learning. For some DG relevency, it's like the two characters I'm having some fun with who didn't listen to my advice about not putting all their points in weapon skills. They are constant having problems because of a lack of secondary skills beyond fighting. -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 9:19 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Starting money? Any suggestions for character creation changes from normal CoC in addition to the new professions? I had two characters roll 300k and 500k yearly incomes, which seems a little high for FBI Special Agent Civil Servants. The RP explanation is that their parents set them up with trust funds, which also explains their low EDU scores. Amusing Anecdote: The group (the two 'frat boys' and a U of Maryland Parasych grad student/ social worker decide to go undercover in Baltimore. They dress in old clothes, etc. and take an old van owned by the wealthy player out to the place they are investigating. Trying to make friends with homeless people goes very poorly, as they obviously have something of value (the nice van they just hopped out of) but after claiming they had stolen the van, one random streetperson offers them a $100 for it. The player thinks, then accepts the offer. His offer goes astray when the guy drives off, taking their transportation with them, and the Baltimore police consider a car theft as important as.. well... as a very unimportant thing. Now they have to get home with their Deep One Hybrid prisoner and deal with the other two they shot. -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 7:41 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Random Name Generator On Tuesday, January 1, 2002, at 03:46 PM, Berin Kinsman wrote: > http://www.kleimo.com/random/name.cfm Nifty! And useful. > -- Brett _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of H. Todd J. Moore [htoddjmoore@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:07 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] daily digests? How do I get a daily digest rather than constant email postings. NOT that each and every one of your postings aren't the very soul of intrigue and joy, you understand. I just need a few less emails. Danke. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:21 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] More serpents The Newage thread spawned some serpentine speculations, so I've got some more reptilian factoids. First up, I've got some stuff to add to the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. I don't know how this slipped by me before, but: "seraph (sr´f) plural seraphim (-m) , supernatural being. The name seems to derive from the Hebrew word "to burn." According to the Book of Isaiah, seraphim have six wings. Scholars have suggested that seraphim were winged serpents. In Numbers, the word "seraph" denotes a "fiery" (i.e. poisonous) serpent. Like cherubim, seraphim are associated with the glory of God, as in the liturgy. See also cherub." Wow. This sows a little confusion on the theories about Christian missionaries trashing other faiths by dissing snakes. According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition: "In descending order the ranks of angels are seraphim, cherubim, thrones; dominations, virtues, powers; principalities, arch-angels, and angels." Don't know what happened to the nephilim in that list. Oh, OK. "Nephilim (nfl´m) , in the Bible, Hebrew word of no known meaning, denoting peoples of gigantic stature with superhuman strength. The term is translated as "giants" in the Authorized Version. The Book of Genesis refers to Nephilim as the offspring of marriages between "daughters of humans" and "sons of God." See also Anak." Hmmmmmmm. Anyhow, seraph-serpents get a lot of press due to some Hebrews bitching about the accomadations while wandering in the wilderness. God apparently didn't appreciate the whining and unleashed seraph-serpents on them. Many were bitten and died. He does that sort of thing a lot in the Old Testament. The Hebrews took the subtle hint and asked Moses if he could see his way clear to, like, maybe beg God to stop with the flaming serpents already? Instead of making the flaming serpents go away, God had Moses "make a seraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." Gee, thanks. I take it making the snakes you sent go away was out of the question then? In any case, to this day a representation of that bronze snake stands at Mt. Nebo, a much earlier symbol of God's healing power than the caduceus of Greek mythology. You would not believe the amount of online text devoted to that bit of Biblical lore. It seems to be a staple of sermons about obedience and such. I even found a few pages by the Branch Davidians about it. Also lots of rabbinical discussion about whether the snakes were sent or were they already there and God took away the protection from them because of the complaints about the grub? Check http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Eparasha/chukath/him.html if you feel up to page after page of rabbis jamming on a theme. Those guys, I swear. And I thought I could get convoluted. "Many people view the word seraph as an adjective describing serpents, i.e., fiery snakes, or according to Rashi, "snakes that burn people with the venom in their teeth." On the other hand, elsewhere in Scriptures seraph is the name of a specific variety of serpent; for example, "viper and flying seraph" (Isa. 30:6); "serpent, seraph" (Deut. 8:15), the pasek cantillation mark indicating a pause between the two words to emphasize that Scriptures is referring to two separate items in a list of animals (contrary to the translation in the New JPS, which renders the text as "seraph serpents")." Ahem. Work with me here, it gets subtle. It seems that rather than discrediting other faiths and their reverence for snakes, a lot of Biblical reinterpretation seems to be trying to cover up the reptilian roots of Judaism and therefore Christianity. C'mon, the entities closest to God in Heaven are serpents. Created before Mankind. And, since the serpent in the Garden was made limbless by God's curse, those serpents were not snakes. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:26 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Starting money? One idea someone suggested during a thread a bit back was the idea of a 'resources' skill. That is, something beyond wealth, to also handle things like tapping DG resources of various stripes. It's a good way of controlling some of the inclination to say 'Uh, we get flamethrowers from DG' without merely saying 'no'. 'Yes, but don't flub this resources check at 1/4...' If people are interested, I could dig up my version. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:45 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] More serpents Interesting twist to the serpent on the pole thing... (and the subject of flaming serpents in general) There is a parasite typically called 'flaming serpent'. It grows up to 3 feet long and as wide as a spaghetti noodle, caught by contaminated drinking water. This serpent forms blisters which open in the presence of water, releasing young. It is painful, but not particularly deadly. One low-tech cure is to take a stick and wind it, very slowly and carefully, out of the body. It takes days to do this, apparantly, without breaking it (which is bad with nematodes) It has been offered as an explanation of the serpent around the stick as a symbol of the medical profession. -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:53 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Starting money? On Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 09:26 AM, William Timmins wrote: > One idea someone suggested during a thread a bit back was the idea of a > 'resources' skill. > > That is, something beyond wealth, to also handle things like tapping DG > resources of various stripes. > > It's a good way of controlling some of the inclination to say 'Uh, we > get flamethrowers from DG' without merely saying 'no'. > > 'Yes, but don't flub this resources check at 1/4...' > > If people are interested, I could dig up my version. interesting... i would probably use Credit rating for that in most ways, although admittedly credit rating should probably be different for official vs. unofficial requisitions. My problem, however, is that someone rolled a 10 for pure salary. 500k a year is a nice chunk of change, especially when the keeper wants to keep special weapons special. I found a chart this morning on a site (UncleBear's?) that is intended as a character generation cheat sheet that seems to use a different table. Did I mist that from the DG rules, or was that a suggested fix? I was thinking of just doing the money roll for agent characters as a 1d6+1 instead of a straight 1d10. This is in return for the immunity to low-level sanity loss from dead bodies and the like the agents generally get that friendlies won't. On the plus side, my current 'friendly' is a UofMD parasychology grad student/soical worker, and has decided to add to the investigation by preparing a report on the many problems of the agents. -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of William Timmins [wtimmins@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:27 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Starting money? Well, regarding high income... the character _could_ simply come from a wealthy background. It's not hard to imagine some scion of a well to do family deciding to do the FBI thing. Or maybe it's from corruption. You know, mysterious 'loss of evidence' -=Will _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:45 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] More serpents ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Timmins" > Interesting twist to the serpent on the pole thing... (and the subject of > flaming serpents in general) It gets more interesting. Those flaming (or burning) serpents show up in the preface to possibly the most famous passage in the New Testament, good ol' John 3:16, made famous by signs at sporting events. Here's the whole thing: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Well, that helps explain all the references to the wilderness serpent. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Crossingham, Adam [Adam.Crossingham@markelintl.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:02 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] Starting money? balance@tubas.net wrote: > Any suggestions for character creation changes from normal CoC in > addition to the new professions? > > I had two characters roll 300k and 500k yearly incomes, which seems a > little high for FBI Special Agent Civil Servants. The RP > explanation is > that their parents set them up with trust funds, which also explains > their low EDU scores. For DG games where players are playing a job role, use the salary for that job and ignore the income roll. For normal CoC games remember that income roll is a starting value When the investigators are investigating, they'll not doing their job earning that money. The keeper will be quite within his limits to role-play the sacking of the errant investigator... and then the money goes away. Remember that Char gen is only the creation of details prior to play. In play, all things are 'game' and subject to change. AFC _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:41 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] More serpents > Wow. This sows a little confusion on the theories about Christian >missionaries trashing other faiths by dissing snakes. Only a touch. You see, we are actively referring to two entirely seperate periods here. While I entirely agree with your hypothesis that the Olde Testament snake-bashing was a cover-up for the early Judaic snake fetish, the snake-stomping I was referring to (note that I said early Catholic) was the period of time when the Church was fighting hard to convert the various Euro-pagans. The snake-bashing occurring around this period, and throughout the Middle Ages afterward, was due to the twin pressures of marketing and maturation of the faith. I'll not go into quotes simply because I suck at scouring the net looking for obscure text, but I am willing to take the hit to my credibility to avoid descending into pedagoguery. R Cell -- _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:51 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Newage >"Kanaloa is the old Polynesian sea god of death, darkness, water, >and squid... Somehow I should've guessed that the Polynesians would have a squid god, and I somehow should've guessed that MiB would bring it up... R -- _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:51 AM To: Dgrpg (E-mail) Subject: [DG] US Naval Special Warfare For those looking for some character development info, or just general background, check out: http://www.swcc.navy.mil/ Naval special warfare homepage. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:26 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone I'm playing with the idea of having some Mythos shenanigans go down during the 1956 Hungarian uprising, possiby centered around the Black Stone mentioned in Howard's story of the same name. I finally got around to buying a copy of Chaosium's Nameless Cults anthology and, after reading the story, I have a couple questions. Before I do that, though: I don't own a copy of DGEO: Project RAINBOW or Shadows of Yog-Sothoth, and my copy of The Mound is in DC right now, so if any information from those books supports/disproves my arguments, please let me know. Now, in the story, Howard explains that the former residents of the village of Streigocovar, near the Black Stone, were Magyars and Slavs mixed with some degenerate aboriginal race. My question: is it possible that that race is the people of K'nyan? The "toad-like" thing that the Turkish raiders slay in the story sems to be suggestive of Tsathoggua, or one of its spawn, and the K'nyani worshipped Tsathoggua for some time before snapping to their senses and eradicating the religion. Could the "aboriginal race" be a splinter group of K'nyani who continued the worship of Tsathoggua and fled through various underground caverns, only to emerge in Hungary and intermix with the locals? One qualifying question: just how big is K'nyan and is the colony in Oklahoma the only one on Earth? My answers: big, and no. Also, the K'nyani are reputed to be (according to the Encyclopedia Cthulhiana) a forerunner to the Aztecs. Now compare that with the writing on the Black Stone, which Howard compares to that of a similar monolith in the Yucatan, and the fact that the original name of the town of Streigocovar, Xuthlan, not only sounds very Aztec but also very Mythos. I'm not sure what psychic powers the K'nyani have, or what powers they've induced in their human test subjects, but introduction of their genes into, for example, the local Romani population might be the root of gypsy fortune-telling abilities. So, to sum it up: Were the former denizens of Streigocovar descendants of renegade Tsathoggua-worshipping K-nyani? Take shots at it. --Mark _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:47 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Hadals / K'nyanni ----- Original Message ----- From: > and eradicating the religion. Could the "aboriginal race" be a splinter group > of K'nyani who continued the worship of Tsathoggua and fled through various > underground caverns, only to emerge in Hungary and intermix with the locals? There is an interesting technothriller/horror book called THE DESCENT (Jeff Long, available from Amazon) which hypothesises that "Hell" is a real place and its deinzens are near-human hominids: there is a network of tunnels underlaying the earth, some of them miles deep, and exending under the Oceans, in which these "hadals" live. The hadals are essentially human, but incredibly cruel and very tough physically. The book does not quite work, but its picture of the hadals is the least flawed bit of it. It goes some real way towards making them psychologically believable. If you read it and *then* work in your scenario you might find some profit. You could assume that the *hadals* are descendents of the K'nyanni, fleeing their civilisation in a state of utter decadence and then evolving back to chimpanzee-muscled savagery. And some come to he surface again in Hungary. The sheer contrast would be fertile, I think. And it's really quite a good book. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:19 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone At 01:25 PM 1/2/2002 -0500, ElLocoToro@aol.com wrote: >I'm not sure what psychic powers the K'nyani have, or what powers they've >induced in their human test subjects, but introduction of their genes into, >for example, the local Romani population might be the root of gypsy >fortune-telling abilities. Oh, this is sweet for DG WWII implications. Besides whatever information the Karotechia inherits from Sonderkommando-H, the main avenues of occult knowledge would probably be Jewish kabbalism and Romani traditions. Study of latent psychic abilities among the gypsy could be the road that leads the Karotechia to K'nyan. >So, to sum it up: Were the former denizens of Streigocovar descendants of >renegade Tsathoggua-worshipping K-nyani? It's been awhile since I read the story, but I wouldn't see why not. I'll re-read it with a critical eye for this. At 05:46 PM 1/2/2002 +0000, Andy Robertson wrote: >The hadals are essentially human, but incredibly cruel and very tough >physically. An interesting facet of the hadals was that a lot of their physiological differences between them and surface humans was due to the effects of subterranean radiation on their bodies. As the world sent more and more humans into the underworld, they came back with strange growths that mirrored those of hadal physiology. This could lead to whole other aspect of "blue-litten" K'nyan. I was gonna get hyper-critical for a moment, but you're right, Andy - THE DESCENT was a good read, especially the early chapters, which have a definite Delta Green feel. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:03 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] daily digests? At 06:06 AM 1/2/2002 -0800, H. Todd J. Moore wrote: >How do I get a daily digest rather than constant email >postings. NOT that each and every one of your postings >aren't the very soul of intrigue and joy, you >understand. I just need a few less emails. Danke. I think you can subscribe to a digest version of the list through the Yahoogroups backup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DGMLbackup You could also go no email with this, and just read the posts off the web. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andrew Gable [empirion33@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:26 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Nephilim (long) was Re: [DG] More serpents --- The Lizard King wrote: > seraphim have six wings. Scholars have suggested that > seraphim were winged serpents. In Numbers, the > word "seraph" denotes a "fiery" (i.e. poisonous) > serpent. Something else. I think the Jewish devil, Sammael, is represented by a serpent with several wings. His name means "poison angel", I think. So more food for thought. > Don't know what happened to the nephilim in that > list. The nephilim were not themselves angels, but were the children of a 10th Choir (the grigori or "watchers" - featured in Dogma ;-)). The grigori, led by Shemihazah, escaped God's vengeance (I think) but were eventually rounded up and tortured and stuff. In fact, I think some people think that the Shemihazah story might be essentially the same as Lucifer's. I have here a photocopy of relevant articles. The Nephilim: "[The origin of the Nephilim might be recounted] in Ezekiel 32:27 where the warrior nations 'fall' (npl) down into Sheol [Hell] but are not privileged to lie with the gibborim nepilim, "the fallen warriors", or...the Nephilim (nepilim) warriors, mythical semi-divine beings in the manner of Babylonian and Greek myths." "The Aramaic cognate npyl' (giant) occurs several times in the Dead Sea Scrolls: in the Tagrum of Job 38:31 it translates the name of the constellation Orion (Hebrew kesil)...once [in the Enochic Book of the Giants] they are called 'the Nephilim of the earth' or the 'earthly Nephilim'." "Others connect it with nepel 'miscarriage' and so meaning dead persons and thence ghosts or spirits of miscarriage." "In I Enoch, the parallel account to Genesis 6:1-4, 'the angels, the sons of heaven' saw and desired the daughters of men. Semyaza appears as their leader; they all, two hundred of them, 'came down' (6:6) and acted promiscuously with earthly women (7:1), polluting the earth with their monstrous progeny, the Nephilim (9:9, 10:9)." "...the view that the 'sons of God' were angels was replaced in second century CE mainstream Judaism by the theory that they were righteous men." The Gibborim: "The first named gibbor on earth was Nimrod and the meaning of the epithet, like the Akkadian gabbaru 'strong' and Arabic al-jabbar 'the giant (ie Orion)', identifies Nimrod's prowess notably as a mythical hunter [which Orion was also], and lord of the kingdoms of Babel, Erech and Accad and founder of Nineveh, Rehobothir, Calah and Resen...His activities thus resemble the exploits of the Mesopotamian hero Gilgamesh recorded in the old Babylonian tablet of that name." "A special quarter is reserved in the depths of Sheol for 'the fallen warriors of long ago', which will not be shared by the likes of Egypt, Assyria, and Elam. The gibborim lie, as it were, in state with their swords and shields intact. Alive, they had once been the terror of the land of the living, and now in Sheol they occupied a place of honour. Perhaps it was their quest for fame and glory in the manner of the tower builders in Genesis 11 that led to their inevitable downfall...The priestly view that the flood was provoked because 'the earth was filled with violence' is consonant with this idea of the gibborim..." van der Toorn, Karel, Bob Becking & Pieter W. van der Horst, eds., 1995. Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible. Leiden: E.J. Brill. ===== Soraidh, Andrew D. Gable empirion33@hotmail.com, empirion33@yahoo.com THE CRYPTOWEB v3.0: http://come.to/the_cryptoweb/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andrew Gable [empirion33@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:35 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone --- ElLocoToro@aol.com wrote: > Also, the K'nyani are reputed to be (according to > the Encyclopedia Cthulhiana) a forerunner to the > Aztecs. Most of the tribes of the southwest (including not only the Aztecs, but the Hopi, Navajo, etc.) have traditions that humanity emerged from underground caverns. I'm itching to do something with the K'n-yani and the disappearance of the Anasazi. Maybe the era of the Anasazi was around when the Mi-Go started their tampering with humanity, and the Anasazi were 'called back' by their brothers in the caves? > the fact that the original name of the town of > Streigocovar, Xuthlan, not only sounds very Aztec > but also very Mythos. Note also that 'Xuthltan' appeared in another of Howard's more-or-less Mythos stories, "The Fire of Asshurbanipal," I think. > > I'm not sure what psychic powers the K'nyani have, > or what powers they've > induced in their human test subjects, but > introduction of their genes into, > for example, the local Romani population might be > the root of gypsy > fortune-telling abilities. > > So, to sum it up: Were the former denizens of > Streigocovar descendants of > renegade Tsathoggua-worshipping K-nyani? > > Take shots at it. > > --Mark > _______________________________________ > The Delta Green Mailing List > http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ > ===== Soraidh, Andrew D. Gable empirion33@hotmail.com, empirion33@yahoo.com THE CRYPTOWEB v3.0: http://come.to/the_cryptoweb/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:37 PM To: Dgrpg (E-mail) Subject: [DG] serious protection for those in the know... *snicker* http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andrew Gable [empirion33@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:40 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Re: Nephilim again BTW, note that the name of the gibborim is clearly derived from the same source as the Kabbalic sephiroth 'geburah', God's wrath, strength or power (which in Kabbala is a feminine trait, BTW). ===== Soraidh, Andrew D. Gable empirion33@hotmail.com, empirion33@yahoo.com THE CRYPTOWEB v3.0: http://come.to/the_cryptoweb/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:27 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone -----Original Message----- From: Gil Trevizo >Oh, this is sweet for DG WWII implications. Besides whatever information >the Karotechia inherits from Sonderkommando-H, the main avenues of occult >knowledge would probably be Jewish kabbalism and Romani traditions. The Theosophists? The Thulegesellschaft? The Vril Society? The FreeMasons? Rosicrucians? Nazi Occultism has all kinds of roots in the whole Bavarian Illuminati style lodges and societies so popular in the 1920's. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/