From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:37 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nephilim (long) was Re: [DG] More serpents From: Andrew Gable >Something else. I think the Jewish devil, Sammael, is >represented by a serpent with several wings. His name >means "poison angel", I think. So more food for >thought. Allow me to clear up a misconception here. There is only one difference between and angel, and a demon (or devil). It's very simple, the difference is: Where they live. The Man in Black is : from Hell. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 4:41 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone At 12:26 PM 1/2/2002 -1000, The Man in Black wrote: >The Theosophists? The Thulegesellschaft? The Vril Society? The >FreeMasons? Rosicrucians? Nazi Occultism has all kinds of roots in the >whole Bavarian Illuminati style lodges and societies so popular in the >1920's. Of course it does. The Thulegesellschaft is basically an Aryanized version of the Theosophists, and most elements of the Thulegesellschaft in the Karotechia likely come through recruitment of Sonderkommando-H members as the Ahnenerbe after 1937 was not the friendliest of places for whack-jobs like former Thulists. The Freemasons and the Rosicrucians could have some place in Karotechia research, especially if they take up the Grail research of Otto Rahn, but I don't see a direct connection. "Bavarian Illuminati" style lodges and societies (in 1920's? - can you provide an example please) are all part of the Vehmgericht-type Gothic romance that was popular in the 19th century and part of the cultural framework that gave rise to ariosophy, but again, not a direct connection. As for the Vril, I'm leaning towards it, but need to do more research. The occult ariosophist wackos come through from Sonderkommando-H. The weird scientists with Aryan sensibilities come from the Ahnenerbe. They meet in the Karotechia. That's an oversimplification of a still in-development project, but hey, it's the best I can do when you take my comments out of context. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 5:02 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone -----Original Message----- From: Gil Trevizo >(in 1920's? - can you provide an example please) The Vril Society and the ThuleGeselschaft and the Theosophists would be the most famous of these. The Masons would be another. It's well known that there was an explosion of wacky pseudo-victorian social groups in the 1920's. Starry Wisdom was based on these, as was the Order of the Silver Twilight. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Julian Breen [jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 5:06 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Vacant lots [Was Re:Twilight Zone] Festus wrote: > the archetypal haunted house. > >. It sat incongruously >> between a St. John's >> Ambulance branch, > >already ranted on the illuminated potential of st. >johns ambulance and order. > >and a copyshop > >mmh? gates into librarian l-space (oops, wrong >universe).... is xerox more carcosian than >carbon-copies? > Just realised, the building would once have actually sat back to back with our town library... -- Julian Breen _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:16 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Cc: dgww2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) Scratch my last post. It was snippy and mean-spirited. I apologize. Let me make amends by explaining what I was trying to say minus any vitriol. Cross-posting to the dgww2 list, so sorry if you get this twice. And a reminder that this is all just my own take and still a work-in-progress. By the time ariosophical occultists joined the Karotechia when it was created in 1939, there had been decades of research in what would later be defined as "Nazi occultism." Still, it takes Sonderkommando-H to uncover the arcane formulae that convinces the Nazi high command that "magic" is real and can have practical applications for the Reich. So, while there had been a long tradition of ariosophy from Guido von List right up to Karl Maria Wiligut, it's most probable that this occult research was the same in the DGverse that it is in real life - a crock of shit. This isn't to say that ariosophy isn't important to understanding the Karotechia. Like all "scientists," they have their biases and will color their discoveries through the racist blinders of their occult philosophy. This means that they could see the K'nyani as the Ascended Masters of ariosophy (concepts pilfered from Theosophy), they could describe psychic energy in terms of Vril, and that they could apply all kinds of nonsense like the World Ice Theory, Thule, etc to the Mythos they encounter. Some of it will have some basis in fact (ie. there really is a Thule already in the Mythos), some of it could become "fact" through strength of belief (which might be required to accomplish non-Mythos magic), and some of it might even be perverted by creatures of the Mythos to their own ends (like the Mi-Go have exploited UFO mythology with the Greys). But by and large, Nazi occultism is what the Karotechia bring to the Mythos, not what brings the Karotechia to the Mythos. There is no evidence that Nazi occultists like Dieter Scheel and his father had any real power before the Karotechia made contact with the Mythos. So, in my very humble opinion, the main avenues of *real* effective occult knowledge that the Karotechia will possess when they are created come from the discoveries of Sonderkommando-H, and what they might learn from Mythos secrets hidden in Jewish kabbalism and Gypsy tradition. This is only "occult" knowledge - Mythos secrets could come in a variety of guises. I'm not trying to set this into stone. There is still a bunch of avenues where occult knowledge could lead the proto-Karotechia to the Mythos, such as the discoveries of Otto Rahn and that which leads them to summon the Deep Ones early in the war. It's just that, so far, there's nothing to indicate to me that Ariosophy by itself was any more effective in the DGverse in in ours. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:25 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone At 01:01 PM 1/2/2002 -1000, The Man in Black wrote of Bavarian Illuminati-style lodges in the 1920's: >The Vril Society and the ThuleGeselschaft and the Theosophists would be >the most famous of these. The Masons would be another. It's well known >that there was an explosion of wacky pseudo-victorian social groups in >the 1920's. Spiritualism had a resurgence in the wake of the Great War, but I would characterize few of these as Bavarian Illuminati-types. The Theosophists had some racist lineage mainly through Blavatasky, but was pretty far from a Germanic organization. The Thulegessellschaft petered out after the incident of the assassination of Thulist hostages by Munich Communists during the postwar street-fighting there. The Masons were definitely not a Germanic group. I don't know much about the Vril Society. >Starry Wisdom was based on these, as was the Order of the >Silver Twilight. Waiting for Chaosium to do Complete Shadows of Yog-Sothoth for the Silver Twilight org, as I read that the German chapter is expanded in the new edition. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@eircom.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:00 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] My Thoughts on the Cult of Transcendence > One approach to a Cult of Transcendence sourcebook might be to never ever > show the man behind the curtain. Don't specify a GOO patron, don't reveal > it's true history. Not to diminish your idea, but isn't pretty much every Illuminati/cult a bit like that, bar the amateur ones? I mean, the Network in GURPS Illuminati have mysterious, "pre-computer age computers" (ok, the 1960s, so its not really, but its reasonably illuminated. I mean, in the 1960s the Net didn't have porn, ergo what use?). "Templars" can be any Christian/heretical Christian group, the Illuminati (be it Bavarian, Imperial Roman or Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Flavour) have an approximate start. That's what I liked about Tong Shugorn and the Fate: how about the COT have no special background, rather day 1, they started doing something. No history or mythology, just battle plan. I'm of the belief Nyarlathotep is founding new types of Cult, ones that don't just correspond to the usual religious cult structure. Give the COT a history, but make it recent, and make it different. Cult of Internet Pervert/hackers perhaps... - The Nuge The Captain is a One-Armed Dwarf He's throwing dice along the wharf In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@eircom.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:04 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Lizard King is a Fag. > > More disinformation. Really, this is beneath you. They're here. They're > queer. They wear black. Deal with it. > > > The Man in Black is : disavowing any knowledge of gay reptoids. > > Yeah, like I'm going to trust a guy writing from a place where people > worship cephalopods. > > Mark McFadden Only 2 days into the year, and we're already questioning the man/reptilehood of the lizard king based on the notion that all Lizardmen steal testicles, like fashion and enjoy the occassional game of crochet. Gentlemen, the EndTimes are truely here. - The Nuge _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@eircom.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:07 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] More serpents deltagreen@revolutionsf.com wrote: > > The Newage thread spawned some serpentine speculations, so I've got some > more reptilian factoids. May I return in part to the John Dillinger's pickled Penis thread for a moment, and mention the legendary "One Eyed Trouser Snake"? We're obsessed with those buggers in particular. - The Nuge The Captain is a One-Armed Dwarf He's throwing dice along the wharf In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@eircom.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:10 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Newage > Somehow I should've guessed that the Polynesians would have a squid god, and > I somehow should've guessed that MiB would bring it up... The MIB shouldn't have been eating Celephod Deities then... - The Nooge The Captain is a One-Armed Dwarf He's throwing dice along the wharf In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Berin Kinsman [deltagreen@unclebear.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:15 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] 'Witch' is charged over death of three partners 'Witch' is charged over death of three partners http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=112496 "Ms Gray's first husband was shot dead in his parked car in 1974. Her second husband was gunned down in 1990. In 1996, the body of her lover was found in the boot of a car, with 9mm bullet wounds. In each case, the pattern was the same: an apparently strong case against Ms Gray suddenly evaporated when witnesses abruptly refused to co-operate, amid strange tales of incantations, potions and voodoo spells." -berin ******** Conspiracy and Modern Horror Resources http://unclebear.com/deltagreen Delta Green: De Profundis http://deltaprofundis.blogspot.com _____________________________________________________________ UNCLE BEAR: news, commentary and community for the escapist mind http://unclebear.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:49 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) From: Gil Trevizo >Maria Wiligut, it's most probable that this occult research was the same in >the DGverse that it is in real life - a crock of shit. Except that in the DGverse, the occult is a thin veneer stretched over the truth. Many wannabe witches and pagans become dangerous when they uncover the rare truths behind their beliefs. >I'm not trying to set this into stone. There is still a bunch of avenues >where occult knowledge could lead the proto-Karotechia to the Mythos, such >as the discoveries of Otto Rahn and that which leads them to summon the >Deep Ones early in the war. It's just that, so far, there's nothing to >indicate to me that Ariosophy by itself was any more effective in the >DGverse in in ours. You're searching for evidence that Ariosophy was real... that's your problem, because it's a bankrupt tradition. But in the DGverse, it serves as the first layer of initiation into the deeper mysteries. That's how sophisticated mythos cults operate, they hide behind layers of initiation. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:11 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Newage The Nuge wrote: >The MIB shouldn't have been eating Celephod Deities then... I'm a rabid fan of octopus sashimi (raw octopus, for the unintiated), and I always get a seat by the window when I eat at the local (good) sushi bar. That way I can watch the passersby lose SAN as I stick pieces of tentacle to the window via the still functional suckers just before eating it. Been kicked out more than once for doing that... R Cell -- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of David Rodemaker [dar@horusinc.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:31 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Newage > I'm a rabid fan of octopus sashimi (raw octopus, for the > unintiated), and I > always get a seat by the window when I eat at the local (good) sushi bar. > That way I can watch the passersby lose SAN as I stick pieces of > tentacle to > the window via the still functional suckers just before eating it. *Who's* losing the San??? > Been kicked out more than once for doing that... Do tell. David _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:35 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) At 03:49 PM 1/2/2002 -1000, The Man in Black wrote: >Except that in the DGverse, the occult is a thin veneer stretched over >the truth. Many wannabe witches and pagans become dangerous when they >uncover the rare truths behind their beliefs. "Theosophists have guessed at the awesome grandeur of the cosmic cycle wherein our world and human race form transient incidents. They have hinted at strange survivals in terms which would freeze the blood if not masked by a bland optimism. But it is not from them that there came the single glimpse of forbidden aeons which chills when I think of it and maddens me when I dream of it." - HPL, The Call of Cthulhu This is what I love about Delta Green - it takes conspiracy theory and sews it into the framework, but it doesn't rely on it. It builds it own mythology, which makes it more realistic and less cheesy, and why games that just crib off traditional conspiracy theory (ie. Conspiracy X) are lesser for it. Take the Mi-Go and UFO mythology for example. Delta Green doesn't just have UFO mythology as the thin veneer stretched over the brutal truth that the Mi-Gos are the Greys - the vast majority of UFO mythology is the crock of shit that it is in real-life. Groups like Saucerwatch and Phenomenon-X may be deluded pawns, but they are for more deluded than they are pawns. >You're searching for evidence that Ariosophy was real... that's your >problem, because it's a bankrupt tradition. But in the DGverse, it >serves as the first layer of initiation into the deeper mysteries. >That's how sophisticated mythos cults operate, they hide behind layers >of initiation. I don't see the Karotechia as a sophisticated mythos cult, though. They're just a bunch of racist occultists that have stumbled into something far more evil than them, and embraced it. They are enormously powerful, with the might of the Third Reich at their beck and call, and capable of unthinkable inhumanity; and in time, parts of the fractious feudal organization that is the Karotechia may develop into sophisticated mythos cults. But in the beginning, they are just Ariosophists*, and Ariosophy is not some Mythos conspiracy wrapped in the occult tradition of the Vehmgericht and Teutonic Templars but just a crock of shit. *And to qualify my statements, I don't think the entirety of the Karotechia are ariosophists. Some, like Eisenbein, probably have no interest in some pseudoscientific prattle - their interest is in their own very scientific brand of prattle. I'll also qualify this all as, once again, just my humble opinion. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 12:46 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > This is what I love about Delta Green - it takes conspiracy theory and sews > it into the framework, but it doesn't rely on it. It builds it own > mythology, which makes it more realistic and less cheesy, and why games > that just crib off traditional conspiracy theory (ie. Conspiracy X) are > lesser for it. Yep. I notice that there seems to be a resistance to ever treating any of the occult systems as if they work *within the game*. Blavatsky was a nutter so there's nothing for the game in her ravings. Vril is bullshit therefore it would be "hokey" to treat it as real. How superficial. Wassamatta, afraid your friends will laugh at you? You know what happens, let up for one instant and it'll rot your brain and you'll be cruising the Newage section before you know it. However (pay attention, this is important) the characters in the game haven't read the sourcebooks. Everyone with knowledge of the Mythos is going nuts if they aren't already there. Doesn't this imply that the overwhelming majority of the dabblers don't *really* know what they are dinking with, *just like Majestic*? Step back and adjust your POV. Within the game, knowledge of the existence of entities such as Azathoth and Nyarlathotep should be rarer than neutrino tracks. But, since those fellas nonetheless have a presence in the festivities there has to be a cover story. No, "cover story" implies knowledge of what's being hidden. I think what should be seen is all of that bullshit that makes no sense works nonetheless when wielded and studied by lone nuts and wackadoo cultists. Look, Olaf Bitterich doesn't know he's talking to Nyarlathotep. He thinks he's talking to a transcendent Hitler. Further, from what I see in the sourcebook he has yet to see anything to lead him to believe anything else. As it says: "In a flash, Bitterich, the zealous cynic, became a zealous believer." However, what he believes in is all bullshit. But it works anyway because the Mythos is really behind everything. I think we're missing out on a lot of dramatic tension by namedropping and putting the Mythos up front. Go up against a fertility cult and everyone waits for the other shoe to drop. Yeah yeah yeah, bullshit bullshit bullshit, where's Shubby? Well I say keep 'em guessing. When they go up against a fertility cult I say don't drop the mask. Keep up the Attis and Adonis and Cybele themes, and while they are waiting to finally get behind the front pull a Wicker Man on them. Never let the name Shubby pass your lips. Don't have an inner circle of cultists who *pretend* to worship pagan deities but *really* worship some Lovecraftian jawbreaker, let the cultists keep their delusions but let them *work*, just as if there really was a pagan fertility deity. Does anyone really think Shub-niggurath calls itself that? That Nyarlathotep really has an Egyptian name? Cthulhu wants you to spell his name right? Those major players should be Keeper's Eyes Only. Even Alphonse has to settle for the codename PARIAH to describe the entity that at the moment sits in Club Apocalypse. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 12:50 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) -----Original Message----- From: The Lizard King > However, what he believes in is all bullshit. But it works anyway because >the Mythos is really behind everything. This is exactly my point. All that occult handwaving and chanting makes an excellent smokescreen for the Mythos, and should be encouraged whenever possible. The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:18 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Cc: dgww2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) At 08:49 PM 1/2/2002 -1000, The Man in Black wrote: >This is exactly my point. All that occult handwaving and chanting makes >an excellent smokescreen for the Mythos, and should be encouraged >whenever possible. Is occultism always a smokescreen for the Mythos? My humble opinion is no. The Mythos is not behind everything. Maybe at a deep fundamental level, but enough to openly impact every aspect of our lives, so that any obsession will result in Mythos power? No - that's Unknown Armies. And keep in mind that UA is an extremely humanocentric setting. Sometimes, the occult handwaving and chanting is just occult handwaving and chanting. Otherwise every occultist in history is a Mythos sorceror. Throw in everything and the kitchen sink of occult history without any quality control and what you end up with is an unplayable mess*. The real question is where does this quality control come into play, and when should the occultism slide through. Let's quit the semantics and bring this back to the main topic: ariosophy and the wartime Karotechia. What does having ariosophy work do for the Karotechia? I can tell you what not having ariosophy work does for the Karotechia - it means that they are newcomers when Sonderkommando-H brings them into the game in 1939. They are not some age-old secret society coming into their own, but a fresh organization, stumbling their way to power. And that's perfectly in keeping with what we know about the wartime Karotechia from the books. This is not to say that there are all ariosophists that join the Karotechia were untouched by the Mythos. Eisenbein brought his toys with him, and if Franz Uhr and Johannes Sprech do end up as Karotechia they are likewise touched - hell, Sprech is probably a full-fledged cultist. But to say the Karotechia itself is part of some Mythos cult master plan based in Ariosophy... that's what I find cheesy and out of touch with the source material. Gil *If this sounds like I'm claiming that Unknown Armies is an unplayable mess... well, maybe I am. I hear the Second Edition will correct that. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:48 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Cc: dgww2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) At 10:46 PM 1/2/2002 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: > However (pay attention, this is important) the characters in the game >haven't read the sourcebooks. Everyone with knowledge of the Mythos is going >nuts if they aren't already there. Doesn't this imply that the overwhelming >majority of the dabblers don't *really* know what they are dinking with, >*just like Majestic*? You're assuming that all the dabblers are dinking with something. Even The X-Files had episodes where the paranormal was found to be absolutely mundane. > However, what he believes in is all bullshit. But it works anyway because >the Mythos is really behind everything. I know that "the Mythos is nature" and all that, but are you saying that every occult practitioner, every religious fanatic, every scientist, every expression of human belief is both fundamentally and fully corrupted by the Mythos, which is ready to burst out under the thinnest of veneers? Every spell works, every experiment breaks through, every idea is true under the Mythos with enough will? There is no bullshit in the DGverse if you just believe hard enough? Like I said to MiB, that sounds a lot closer to Unknown Armies than Delta Green to my ears. Check out a copy, if you haven't. I think it's very much up your alley. There is a point at which conspiracy theory goes from being interesting to just damn silly, and this is important. I've seen just the idea of the Karotechia drain all suspension of disbelief from players because occult nazis have been so damn done that just the hint of that makes them want to hurl. Yes, any occult conspiracy can be turned into a gaming hook - not all of them are automatically good ones, though. That's what I'm talking about, not that occultism should have no reality in DG, but that we shouldn't automatically try to make each and everything occult-realited. That's how UNSEEN MASTERS went and fucked up the perfectly-good Hashishin. I'd blame UM for the Templars too, but that's really GLOZEL EST AUTHENTIQUE's fault. > I think we're missing out on a lot of dramatic tension by namedropping and >putting the Mythos up front. This is where ariosophy comes into play. Much of the wartime Karotechia will see the Mythos and put an ariosophist veneer over it. I think that's more interesting and in keeping with the source material than simply having ariosophy created by Mythos cultists. >Don't have an inner circle of cultists who *pretend* to worship pagan >deities but *really* worship some Lovecraftian jawbreaker, let the cultists >keep their delusions but let them *work*, just as if there really was a >pagan fertility deity. This is what I'm talking about. The key here is, I don't think Ariosophists come into substantial contact with the Mythos until the Karotechia. Otherwise, they wouldn't need Sonderkommando-H to find all that evidence of magick that really works to create the Karotechia - it already would and the Karotechia should have been created long ago. Yes, the ariosophists of the Karotechia don't pretend to worship Christos, they really do, and their rune magic really does work, and it is all delusions masking a Mythos element. All I'm saying is that I don't think that that Mythos element was there in any great sense before 1939. And hell, I'm not too hardcore on that either. I would like to see what others think could be done by having ariosophy work before 1939. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:59 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) From: Gil Trevizo >At 08:49 PM 1/2/2002 -1000, The Man in Black wrote: >>This is exactly my point. All that occult handwaving and chanting makes >>an excellent smokescreen for the Mythos, and should be encouraged >>whenever possible. > >Is occultism always a smokescreen for the Mythos? Did anyone ever say that it was? >But to say the >Karotechia itself is part of some Mythos cult master plan based in >Ariosophy... that's what I find cheesy and out of touch with the source >material. When did anyone ever say this? I recall saying that Occultism was big in the 1920's and that the Karotechia grew out of German Occultism. I looked at the DGML backup and couldn't find any post that claimed that the Karotechia was part of any Ariosophist master plan... The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of philip.ward@yes.tv Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:11 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting Dangerously off topic, but there you go: "CHAOSIUM UNVEILS NEW GAME SETTING, COMING SOON." http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/d20cthulhu/8800.shtml ********************************************************************** This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. It may contain confidential or privileged information and should not be read, copied or otherwise used or disseminated by any unauthorised person. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Yes Television (Europe) Ltd . If you are not the named recipient, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail from your system. ********************************************************************** _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 4:25 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > You're assuming that all the dabblers are dinking with something. Even The > X-Files had episodes where the paranormal was found to be absolutely mundane. No, you're assuming that I'm saying that all dabblers get results. And while we're at it, let's drop the "smokescreen" metaphor. A smokescreen assumes that someone is hiding something. Try fog as the metaphor. It's just freakin' *there* hiding everything; planned, random and innocent bystander. > I know that "the Mythos is nature" and all that, but are you saying that > every occult practitioner, every religious fanatic, every scientist, every > expression of human belief is both fundamentally and fully corrupted by the > Mythos, which is ready to burst out under the thinnest of veneers? Yes. You're carrying powerful magic in your wallet and everything we're fighting to defend is a product of the Mythos at some level. We'll bring on the Endtimes with the best intentions, and many will think they've won and head out to celebrate with some wild and free killing of the "enemy." We're doomed if we follow the program and continue playing. > Every > spell works, every experiment breaks through, every idea is true under the > Mythos with enough will? There is no bullshit in the DGverse if you just > believe hard enough? Never. I don't believe in the brute force approach. Oooo, my willpower stat is bigger than yours, so I win. Fuck that. Nope. It ain't quantity but quality. It isn't having *enough* will, but the right kind of will, the right POV and a few a-ha moments. You know, like the difference between reading a tome and understanding a tome. Leave it up to the intensity of the will and any 2 year-old wins, hands down. Actually, this shouldn't be all that hard to accept. It's a given in the Everett-Wheeler-Graham model, or multi-worlds. My approach based on theme and poetry and "yeah, I can see how that could work." If the details seem a little out there, go back to Basics. As above, so below. Everything is connected. Matter and energy cannot be destroyed, they can only change states. The observer is part of the experiment. There is no such thing as an objective observer, and he wouldn't get a free lunch either. > There is a point at which conspiracy theory goes from being interesting to > just damn silly, and this is important. Yes, but it's a moving point. The bullshit scale is always subjective, but it does respond to peer pressure. Unfortunately, most peers are primates with the typical intolerance for ambiguity. > I've seen just the idea of the > Karotechia drain all suspension of disbelief from players because occult > nazis have been so damn done that just the hint of that makes them want to > hurl. Just the idea, eh? My, how knee-jerk of them. I guess nothing fresh can come of something done badly before. Do they post on alt.cult.films as well? ;-) OK, let me use books\movies for examples. Haunted house. The concept has been done to death. The Amityville Horror The Shining Hell House The Haunting (of Hill House) "The Amityville Horror" got a lot of press because it was "a true story" and all of that. It really wasn't all that good (IMO), and only it's status as "real" made it of any interest. When I read it I remember thinking it was the most uncoordinated haunting I'd ever read about. OK, seeing through walls, black gunk in the toilet, missing money, glowing red eyes, what the fuck? It doesn't hang together, there's no *theme*, just a bunch of disconnected happenings. "The Shining." Ah, haunted *hotel*. Now we're cookin'. Hmmm. Not really sure if the dad was nuts before he got there, or if the place made him wacky. The idea of haunting being like an electrical charge, and the hotel wanted Danny and his shining to give it enough boost to break loose. Cabin fever, hidden history, going for the weak points -- yeah. The family dynamic, the idea of "Tony" giving Danny advice from the future. Not bad. "Hell House." Can't go wrong with Richard Matheson. Ghosts as an electromagnetic phenom. The creepy history making it the "Mount Everest of haunted houses." The characters and weak points to be exploited, the clues to assemble and the ultimate secret to discover. It had everything Amityville lacked, and paid off with a lot of action. "The Haunting." Hey, don't show *anything*. I'm speaking of the book, the play, and the Robert Wise film. I try to pretend the new film never happened. Having it "narrated" by Eleanor's internal monologue. The parallels in personal history and house history. Nothing is seen but turning doorknobs and a bulging door. Loud noises and a little girl crying. Carvings and wallpaper that become faces when you look at them long enough. Different approaches to a classic concept. "Hell House" and "The Haunting" even resemble each other in the situation presented, but they aren't anything alike. Occult Nazis are only done to death if it remains at the level of "occult Nazis." Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:04 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) At 02:25 AM 1/3/02 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: > No, you're assuming that I'm saying that all dabblers get results. Okay, my bad. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:10 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) At 09:58 PM 1/2/02 -1000, The Man in Black wrote: > >Is occultism always a smokescreen for the Mythos? > >Did anyone ever say that it was? No, not explicitly. I just wondered if this was the viewpoint based on some of the statements made. > >But to say the > >Karotechia itself is part of some Mythos cult master plan based in > >Ariosophy... that's what I find cheesy and out of touch with the source > >material. > >When did anyone ever say this? I recall saying that Occultism was big in >the 1920's and that the Karotechia grew out of German Occultism. I >looked at the DGML backup and couldn't find any post that claimed that >the Karotechia was part of any Ariosophist master plan... You also said that ariosophy was the first layer of initiation into the deeper mysteries, and that sophisticated mythos cults hide behind these layers of initiation. I was wondering if this was to meant to say that a sophisticated mythos cult lay behind ariosophy. If it doesn't, then no problemo. If it does, then I have to ask why the ariosophists have nothing to show for it until Sonderkommando-H comes around. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:05 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) >Does anyone really think Shub-niggurath calls itself >that? That Nyarlathotep really has an Egyptian name? Cthulhu wants >you to spell his name right? In the game I am currently running, the plot is Mythos associated currently, but not strictly Mythos nor is it Call of Cthulu system. I am using a CoC 90's module for the ideas (Utatti Asfet, good fun) and setting it in 1912 after some time travel and dimension hopping (like I said in an earlier post, VERY hard to explain the game quickly, and not really trying for the dark paranoia and terror in my usual CoC/Albino Fleabag games). Utatti Asfet has a section on a Polynesian island wherein the native are all insane cannibal cultists worshipping a blasphemous mix of Catholicism and Hina, a shark god. The Hina portion of the worship takes place in an anceint temple to, who else, Cthulu. Their trickery works, why? In my setting, it is because Cthulu loves all his children and doesn't mind if they call him Hina =) The PC's have been looking fearfully for Cthulu (simply out of player knowledge mostly), and Cthulu will never even show his influence in this entire game. Bottom line here is that I agree entirely. I see no reason to name drop with the Elder Gods. It is more fun, at least in this game, to make the players sweat and wonder which Elder God is screwing with them right now (as if they were that important). R Cell -- _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Doctor TOC [otherchris@erols.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:07 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) The Lizard King wrote: > > "Hell House." Can't go wrong with Richard Matheson. Ghosts as an > electromagnetic phenom. The creepy history making it the "Mount Everest of > haunted houses." The characters and weak points to be exploited, the clues > to assemble and the ultimate secret to discover. It had everything > Amityville lacked, and paid off with a lot of action. If anyone hasn't yet read the book, do so. My Innocent Bystander bought it for me for Yigmass, and it is *superb*. There's a lot more going on in the book than the film, though the film is a pretty faithful adaptation. You need to read the book to find out what's really going on with the psychics, and to divine the degree of spiritual siege the characters are under. The potted history of Belasco House is full of fun happenings. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:14 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting On Thursday, January 3, 2002, at 04:11 AM, philip.ward@yes.tv wrote: > > Dangerously off topic, but there you go: > > "CHAOSIUM UNVEILS NEW GAME SETTING, COMING SOON." > http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/d20cthulhu/8800.shtml Offhand, it's a good idea. it adds some seperation from Cthulhu classic (and Delta Green) as being the more 'serious' eras whereas the D20 version will be placed in a less rigorous setting where the heroes are notch more powerful, in a 'heroic' sense as oppsed to an 'elder god style' sense. -- Brett "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring) LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:19 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting >"CHAOSIUM UNVEILS NEW GAME SETTING, COMING SOON." >http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/d20cthulhu/8800.shtml As an aside, this is frightfully close to what I am running. I look forward to this immensely. I can also see how it could be on topic, if you look at DG sorts of activities Pre-WWII, and then probably toned down the pulp-hero bit. Ok, so maybe not that on topic... R Cell -- _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:28 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia I agree with what might be called the *nacht und niebel* view of occultism. There is no "true" model of the Mythos; there are only models that work better or worse for particular observers. It's a familiar trick in science. You wonder if the wave or the matrix formulation of QM is "truer", and then you suddenly realise the question is meaningless. You grow up. An interesting sideline of this is that we have to abandon the idea that there is a "canonical" view of the Mythos. As an exercise, we might try reducing HPL's formulation of the Mythos to the status of just another human-created mythology, perhaps closer to the truth than Nazi Occultism but not different *in essence*. Relatively minor entities like Cthulhu may be perceived dimly ut with some accuracy; but beyond that, things like Yog-Sothoth or the Vibe can only ever be approached by analogy. The Glove Cleaner ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > > And while we're at it, let's drop the "smokescreen" metaphor. A smokescreen > assumes that someone is hiding something. Try fog as the metaphor. It's just > freakin' *there* hiding everything; planned, random and innocent bystander. > _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of John Daly [johnd_iv@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:26 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] The Lizard King is a Fag. Nah - This is what happens when you spend too much time playing Conspiracy X as opposed to that scintilating work - Delta Green John "Let me get this straight - this game actually uses Zenner Cards? As means of determining psychic characters success." "Yep" "Doesn't this give real psychics an edge in the game?" John Daly --- The Man in Black wrote: > I knew it all along: > > > All that obsession with Precious Essence... the > drinking... the > unexplained absences... the cross-dressing... > interior decorating... it > all makes sense now. Homosexual! The Naval > Investigative Service was > right all along! Homosexual Reptoid aliens want to > probe the butts of > all straight men! Ed Wood, the Mafia, The Belgian > Fraud! The EURO!!! It > all makes sense! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jeff Russell [c-jeffru@amazon.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:32 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) For another spectacularly good haunted house story take a look at "House of Leaves" by Mark Z. Danielewski. No overt mythos references, but reads like a textbook case of an artist slowly going completely insane as he studies the growing chaos of changes in the house. Read in conjunction with the Hastur chapter in DG:C and there's a wealth of good ideas there. -----Original Message----- From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com [mailto:owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com]On Behalf Of Doctor TOC Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 6:07 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) The Lizard King wrote: > > "Hell House." Can't go wrong with Richard Matheson. Ghosts as an > electromagnetic phenom. The creepy history making it the "Mount Everest of > haunted houses." The characters and weak points to be exploited, the clues > to assemble and the ultimate secret to discover. It had everything > Amityville lacked, and paid off with a lot of action. If anyone hasn't yet read the book, do so. My Innocent Bystander bought it for me for Yigmass, and it is *superb*. There's a lot more going on in the book than the film, though the film is a pretty faithful adaptation. You need to read the book to find out what's really going on with the psychics, and to divine the degree of spiritual siege the characters are under. The potted history of Belasco House is full of fun happenings. Doctor TOC -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Secret Elf, Jive Talkin' Choirboy, God of Cowboy Spurs ICQ # 4814586 Daleks! 3D - http://users.rcn.com/otherchris/ Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://members.fortunecity.com/toc _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dave Pullen [david.pullen3@virgin.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:34 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] serious protection for those in the know... *snicker* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rayburn, Russell E." > http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html > But if the Shan can only pass through organic matter then this isn't entirely useless, yes? _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:24 PM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] serious protection for those in the know... *snicker* See, this guy Knows Things... *adjusts tinfoil beanie* Of course, you can never be too careful with willie whackers about... *scratches next to cast iron athletic supporter cup* -----Original Message----- From: Dave Pullen [mailto:david.pullen3@virgin.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:34 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] serious protection for those in the know... *snicker* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rayburn, Russell E." > http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html > But if the Shan can only pass through organic matter then this isn't entirely useless, yes? _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Nuge [jessthecatasc@eircom.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 5:12 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] Newage > *Who's* losing the San??? > > > Been kicked out more than once for doing that... > > Do tell. I've drunkenly started cults to the KIY: and I can do that, then anyone can cause SAN loss. Its all a matter of scale. I'm sure the MIB has done other things that'd make the Magna Mater weep, so non-RPG deviance, all fun as it is, this perhaps aint the best place. - The Nuge _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/