From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Man in Black [scrogginl001@hawaii.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 7:45 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] 3 locations you may find of some use... (long) From: Dirk R. Festus Festerling >> http://www.johntynes.com/rl_film_passagethrough.html >huh? access denied reason ddr--165 ? festus Citizen! You are not cleared for that information at your security clearance. All Green clearance citizens in sector COC please report for summary execution. Thank you for your cooperation. The Man in Black is : your friend. Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/seven/ : [SPIRAL CHALICE] http://www.emerald-hammer.org/ : [EMERALD HAMMER] _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 9:55 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) > Here's the crux of the biscuit. Hitler would have been about as dangerous >and world-shaking as David Duke if he didn't end up with the resources of >an >entire nation at his beck and call. We tiptoe around what happened in >Germany for many good, and quite a few self-serving reasons. We really >don't >want to look too hard because we will inevitably see ourselves. Better to >maintain an unspoken belief in some inherent flaw in the German character. > "Well, they're nice enough people most of the time, but they go crazy in >large groups." > "They were all pretty much anti-Semitic in the first place." > "They have this congenital worship of authority." > And on and on ad infinauseum. Get real. The tragedy for Germany is that >it >happened there first, not that there was something in the German psyche >just >waiting to be set free. It could just as easily have happened in the US or >England. It could just as easily happen again. Might want to mention the _crushing_ Depression Germany was in post WWI, thanks to the various Allied powers. Actually, France really had the heaviest hand in forcing the issue of wartime reparations on Germany, but wh'd want to blame the French for WWII, the Nazi party and the Final Solution? Oh, oops, the Final Solution was as much the fault of the Democrats here in America as it was the French. The Dems were the dominant party in power (congressionally) when an absolute boatload of German Jews were denied entrance/asylum from Germany. Germany did "try" to give the problem away. We wouldn't take it, thus... All of his ranting aside, I agree with the Lizard King. Hitler was a man of some charisma in a situation designed to boost the efficacy of said charisma to radioactive levels. Desperate time call for desperate measures, and Hitler and the Nazi party certainly count as desperate measures in the desperate times after the Great War. As an aside, I'm not making excuses for the Germans or rascists in general, just attempting to show some history... R W -- _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 10:15 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia >Religions are the nearest things to GOO in the real world. > >Religion kept the jews alive and separate for five thousand years. >Religion >took Mohammed and a ragtag band of desert nomads to dominate a quarter of >the world. Religion-arguably - drove the Europeans to steal three >continents in the name of God. > >Religions act, among other things, as Genocide facilitators. Have to disagree here. I'm not personally religious, I say that Religion was used as a patent excuse, maybe. War, however, is caused by economics and population pressure, nothing more. Religion has been blamed for the woes of man for long enough. Much like the argument on Nazism, religion is simply a framework within which already unbalanced individuals can gain power. To blame the framework solely is to decry all the good things religion has brought about. >When you look back at Hitler, overlay him on Isaiah, Jherimiah, Mohammed, >and all the other religious loons of history - people convnced that there >is >a *transcendent* justification for the genocides and slaughters they are >advocating. Feh, because someone chooses to misrepresent something, that something is judged bad? Hinckley shot Reagan over his obssession for Jody Foster (sp?). Thus Jody Foster is bad? What about Stalin? Stalin was most assuredly not religious (nor do I think Hitler was particularly religious) and committed atrocities that make Hitler look like a piker with a good PR agent. R W -- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:11 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > Anyways, I don't want to argue about whether racism is stupid or how > ariosophy is/is not any more hokey than Deep Ones and Dark Young or why > Germany fell into the darkness of the Third Reich. Simply put, successful > people can believe in stupid things, the game is called Call of Cthulhu and > not Call of the Ariosophists and I ain't even gonna touch that subject. I don't want to argue about it either. What I wanted to nip in the bud is a tendency to reinvent the Nazis for modern tastes. We go through this every time the Karotechia is center stage. We (the list) went 'round and 'round over the racial profiles of the ranks of the Karotechia. People were coming up with black Bishofe and Jewish allies and a whole rainbow coalition colors of Benneton new improved Karotechia that had no racial prejudices or agendas. And the usual reason given was that racists were a collection of drooling rednecks that they couldn't see being a valid threat and some revisionist history where the racists were the thugs on the streets but the upper echelons were just paying lip service to ignorant prole beliefs. The other argument was that they would be denying themselves valuable resources if they persisted along racist lines, so they would drop the ideology like a hot rock in the interest of power. In the name of gaming utility you were sweeping the Ariosophy aside to an amusing sidebar when it is a major theme that went throughout Nazi history and continues today. The hollow Earth and Vril themes have pretty much evaporated with new knowledge, but the racial destiny and hierarchy themes are still coming on strong. Modern Nazis might be willing to reinvent themselves to keep up with the times, but they tenaciously cling to what is most important to them. If the Ariosophy beliefs are hokey because they seem quaint, reinterpret them with Mythos terms. If they seem useless because they wouldn't work, make them work and give them Mythos teeth. Otherwise you have a timeline with "and some cranks wanked for awhile, then Hitler came along and things got serious." If you read "Mein Kampf" you get to see either what was going on in his head, or what he felt the people wanted to hear. In either case, it was full of Ariosophist beliefs about race and destiny. Those beliefs are too important, too central a theme to be swept aside because there doesn't seem to be any immediate utility. It looks like most of us have zeroed in on Nyarlathotep as the patron of the Nazis. That fits in well with what is in the source books. Now, if we have Nyarly manipulating Bitterich by appearing to him as Friedrich the Great, Bismarck, Nietzsche, Arminius, Siegfried and a transcendent Hitler; why can't we have the Thulegesselschaft getting advice from the "Enlightened Masters" of Atlantis? Now, I still don't have any spells or Ariosophist magic. In fact, what I've got so far is sort of an occult Whole Earth Enterprises with Nyarlathotep telling people what they want to hear and letting them come up with evil on their own. I'm with the other Mark when it comes to wanting human evil in the spotlight. To me, that's the grittiest part of the DG addition to CoC gaming. Look at what eventually happens with a little prodding of some occult wankers in Germany. Some atomic theorists flee for their lives because of Nazi racial and religious doctrine. They flee to "the Good Guys." The Nazis are so awful *because of the beliefs* that dictate their policies and actions even Albert Einstein feels it's necessary to alert some people about the potential for atomic weapons. Not only is there a world war, but "the Good Guys" are the ones that drop two (two!) atomic bombs on civilians. Followed by decades of Mutually Assured Destruction as the dominant policy in international affairs. If that sequence of events gets accepted, what does that do for Nyarly's latest project? Whole Earth Enterprises doesn't get much use because there is no Mythos content and there is nothing tangible to fight. It's a bunch of legitimate corporations doing legal things run by nasty people. What I want to do with it is to look at the machinations of business and their bizarre beliefs (apparently disconnected from reality if Enron is any indication), the nature of finance as a faith and all the other stuff I go off about as being the Thulegesselschaft of modern times. It doesn't seem like much now, but what will it inevitably turn into with such a belief system? Last time we got WWII and MAD, what will those clever monkeys come up with this time around? Yes, I know. That seems like quite a leap from Ariosophy to corporate culture. But that's what I come up with from looking at wacky beliefs. There still isn't much the PCs can grapple with in the Big Picture, but it does raise the stakes and promote a feeling that the clock is ticking. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:51 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia ----- Original Message ----- From: "R W" > I'm not personally religious, I say that Religion was > used as a patent excuse, maybe. War, however, is caused by economics and > population pressure, nothing more. I was with you until you tacked-on the "nothing more." Were the Crusades about relieving population pressure? First, patent excuses for bad behavior are important. If people won't do bad things without an excuse, it behooves us to study the nature of the excuse mechanism. Try whipping up a nationalistic frenzy with honest slogans. "We're greedy and want their stuff!" "Let's feel better about ourselves!" "We feel powerless and want to kill something!" I'm reading Stanley Milgram's "Obedience to Authority" right now. It sure doesn't take much authority to allow people to shuck responsibility for their actions. > Religion has been blamed for the woes of > man for long enough. Much like the argument on Nazism, religion is simply a > framework within which already unbalanced individuals can gain power. To > blame the framework solely is to decry all the good things religion has > brought about. It's easier to blame religion than to grapple with the issues. But I don't think Andy was blaming religion for the actions of the believers. He's seldom so simplistic, and he knows about the good things it can bring about first hand. > Feh, because someone chooses to misrepresent something, that something is > judged bad? Hinckley shot Reagan over his obssession for Jody Foster (sp?). > Thus Jody Foster is bad? Hehe. During the 80s I advocated shooting Jodie Foster to get Reagan's attention. Nothing else seemed to work. ;-) I admire Jodie a lot, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Besides, I was a moderate. I just wanted to wing her. I'd call 911 myself. > What about Stalin? Stalin was most assuredly not religious (nor do I think > Hitler was particularly religious) and committed atrocities that make Hitler > look like a piker with a good PR agent. Both Stalin and Hitler operated within belief systems that were at least as strong as the worst aspects of (some) religion. It doesn't matter whether those two individuals were believers, they personally were only as dangerous as any individual with a trigger finger. It's when they had a nation behind them that they got to be world-class shitheads. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Yossi Gurvitz [ygurvitz@netvision.net.il] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 1:00 PM To: The Lizard King Subject: Re[2]: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) Hello The, Saturday, January 05, 2002, 5:16:45 AM, you wrote: TLK> And on and on ad infinauseum. Get real. The tragedy for Germany is that it TLK> happened there first, not that there was something in the German psyche just TLK> waiting to be set free. It could just as easily have happened in the US or TLK> England. It could just as easily happen again. It happened before, in Russia. And concentration camps are a British idea, originally (the Boer War). Why do people forget about the Soviet atrocities? Why aren't they as prominent in our thinking? Oh, right: they were all done in the name of mankind, so the murder of tens of millions doesn't really count. Grease on the wheels of the revolution and all that. Yours, Yossi _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Yossi Gurvitz [ygurvitz@netvision.net.il] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 1:08 PM To: Andy Robertson Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia Hello Andy, Saturday, January 05, 2002, 11:06:52 AM, you wrote: AR> Religion kept the jews alive and separate for five thousand years. Religion At a huge personal and cultural price. Mass murders and inherent paranoia aside, persecution and seclusion - going hand in hand, naturally - have twisted the Jewish outlook - at least around here to "They (that is, everybody) fucked us repeatedly for two millennia; well, we're going to do whatever we want, and whatever atrocity we commit is justified by our history." I hear such comments on a daily basis. Drives me insane by inches. Yours, Yossi _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 10:06 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia ----- Original Message ----- From: "R W" > > > > >Religions act, among other things, as Genocide facilitators. > > Have to disagree here. I'm not personally religious, I say that Religion was > used as a patent excuse, maybe. War, however, is caused by economics and > population pressure, nothing more. Indeed, I agree. Religions don't cause war. But they act, among *many* other things, to **validate** the destruction of a tribe's enemies by giving genocide or ethnic displacement a bogus rationale. Look through history and you will see this. Do religions have "good" effects? Of course. They enforce internal amity wihin the tribe. Nazism had many good effects - for the tribe that adopted it - until its bad effects on everyone else led to its gesquelching. > > What about Stalin? Stalin was most assuredly not religious (nor do I think > Hitler was particularly religious) and committed atrocities that make Hitler > look like a piker with a good PR agent. Smart man. He did indeed commit atrocities that make Hitler look like a piker. And his genocide-validating religion was . . . . . Marxism,. which validated the destruction of the kulaks as "class enemies" and located its transcendence in economic theory so deliberately obfusticated that no one could see what was wrong with it. Clear your mind of the misapprehension that a religion is necessarily supernatural. Ever wondered why left wing ideas are so fuzzy and anti-rational? Deconsructionalism? Dada? Derridha? It is because they are basically *religious* in origin. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 10:24 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yossi Gurvitz" > Hello Andy, > > Saturday, January 05, 2002, 11:06:52 AM, you wrote: > > AR> Religion kept the jews alive and separate for five thousand years. Religion > At a huge personal and cultural price. I know, mate. I ain't recommending it for a easy time. Quite the reverse, in fact. I'm just saying, it is what happened. It wasn't *deliberate*. I have no way of knowing if Ezikeil (for example) was a loony or a charlaan or if the finger of some god actually touched him. Most likely what doomed the Eastern end of the Mediterranean to this explosion of religions was time, chance, and the coincidence of being in the place where writing started - for memes like this, this complex and powerful, need writing to endure and spread. I'd like to say "try to stay sane", but I'm not sure I meaningfully can, not being in any situation like yours. :-( Uh, good luck. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:01 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting On 3 January 2002, philip.ward@yes.tv said: >Dangerously off topic, but there you go: > >"CHAOSIUM UNVEILS NEW GAME SETTING, COMING SOON." >http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/d20cthulhu/8800.shtml Sounds like it could be a reasonably interesting game... The D29 System is (IMHO) rather underused. There is a tendency for many to confuse it with the D20 System, though the two systems obviously use different polyhedral dice! What's the best place to find D29s? My local game stores don't seem to stock them at present, and aren't sure where to order them!:) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:09 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) At 10:10 AM 1/5/02 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: > I don't want to argue about it either. What I wanted to nip in the bud is a >tendency to reinvent the Nazis for modern tastes. > > In the name of gaming utility you were sweeping the Ariosophy aside to an >amusing sidebar when it is a major theme that went throughout Nazi history >and continues today. How many times did I state how important Ariosophy is for understanding the mindset of the Karotechia, and that it would be used to color how they see the Mythos? From my last post alone: "Ariosophy is very important for how the Karotechia sees the Mythos, just like modern science is important to understand how MJ-12 sees the Mythos." >The hollow Earth and Vril themes have pretty much >evaporated with new knowledge, but the racial destiny and hierarchy themes >are still coming on strong. The knowledge that evaporated the hollow Earth and Vril themes would be just as available in the 1940s as it is today. IMHO the Karotechia was not some monolithic organization where everyone read List like the Bible and threw rune stones with their morning breakfast. The Karotechia is said to have recruited from the Thulegesellschaft, Sonderkommando-H, and the Ahnenerbe. While the Thulegesellschaft were fervent ariosophists, the Ahnenerbe in 1939 was dominated by true academics. Nazi academics to be sure, who believed in the racial superiority of the Germanic race and were capable of all kind of whacked-out theories like the World Ice Theory, but few who held to occult beliefs like the hollow Earth and Vril. But before someone forgets my first paragraph, I'm not saying there won't be several in the Karotechia that won't see the Elder Things and trot out the Hollow Earth, or won't pick up on the K'nyani and label it all Vril. What I'm saying is that: a) Vril and the Hollow Earth and all that are the veneer over Mythos truths, and are hokey if the face-value is left as the whole. And sometimes, the Vril is just Vril - I see nothing wrong with having Mythos sorcerors also believing in stuff that doesn't pan out - these little failings keep them human. So the Karotechia doctor breeding babies to release their Aryan birthright to command Vril (in fact, develop the K'nyani genetic manipulation) is still just wanking when he casts rune stones to figure out the best copulation time for his subjects. b) Vril and such shouldn't really work with true power for the pre-Karotechia Ariosophists, at least not for more than a few disenfranchised individuals (like Sebottendorf or Wiligut and Rahn in their last year, though that's so close to the creation of the Karotechia do be moot) because then it doesn't make sense why it took Sonderkommando-H to create an organization in the Nazi state to investigate the Mythos. It can make sense with a good reason - some part of Ariosophy with Mythos power gets destroyed/destroys itself before they come to anything, they're under orders from the Enlightened Ones to stay low until the Karotechia come knocking, this Ariosophist cult is lead by homosexuals that get thrown in concentration camps early on and turn against the Nazis, etc. - but I'd like to hear that reason before saying it's so. > If the Ariosophy beliefs are hokey because they seem quaint, reinterpret >them with Mythos terms. If they seem useless because they wouldn't work, >make them work and give them Mythos teeth. Otherwise you have a timeline >with "and some cranks wanked for awhile, then Hitler came along and things >got serious." What on earth is wrong with this timeline? That pretty much encapsulates the history of ariosophy in Germany, and is arguably true to history. Note that this all goes back to b) from above - it's not that involving Ariosophy significantly with the Mythos is a bad idea, I just don't think it's automatically a good one. > It looks like most of us have zeroed in on Nyarlathotep as the patron of >the Nazis. That fits in well with what is in the source books. Now, if we >have Nyarly manipulating Bitterich by appearing to him as Friedrich the >Great, Bismarck, Nietzsche, Arminius, Siegfried and a transcendent Hitler; >why can't we have the Thulegesselschaft getting advice from the "Enlightened >Masters" of Atlantis? Why do you think I brought this up in my last post. I wasn't giving you a history lesson when I detailed how Hitler ended up creating the Nazi Party through the indirect means of the Thulegesellschaft. I was establishing how the Mythos might nudge the Thulists here and there to end up with Hitler in power. > Now, I still don't have any spells or Ariosophist magic. In fact, what I've >got so far is sort of an occult Whole Earth Enterprises with Nyarlathotep >telling people what they want to hear and letting them come up with evil on >their own. I'm with the other Mark when it comes to wanting human evil in >the spotlight. To me, that's the grittiest part of the DG addition to CoC >gaming. The key factor for me is and has always been the lack of working spells in Ariosophist magic. Go back to my original post - I thought MiB was asking why I claimed the occult power of the original Karotechia all came out of Sonderkommando-H, with some kabbalist and gypsy traditions thrown in. The reason I stated this is that I can see no evidence that Ariosophical groups like the List Society, the Order of New Templars, or the Thulegesellschaft wielded true power, and that if they did, this seriously changes the background of the Karotechia, which goes from being the creation of occultists and scientists that stumble onto the Mythos and into the result of the longterm conspiracy with Ariosophy secretly lead by a full-fledged Mythos cult. So Hitler was not a man that facilitated great evils by both the state and the individual through power given from the fears and prejudices of people across Europe and even the world, but was a creature of the Mythos empowered with strange hypnotic magic that worked the German people into a spell, and the Holocaust was not due to the failings of little men but out of Mythos magic. Vomit. And no, I'm not saying anyone explicitly said this. Catalogue this under "nipping in the bud." Mark R is right-on when he states that this eliminates the dark side of the human nature from the proceedings, and I thought I was being obviously sarcastic when I brought this whole "but everything is the Mythos" business. Sure, a little Mythos involvement doesn't mean the Nazis can be blamed on Nyarlathotep, but to avoid that we do have to be careful with how little that involvement really is. > Yes, I know. That seems like quite a leap from Ariosophy to corporate >culture. But that's what I come up with from looking at wacky beliefs. There >still isn't much the PCs can grapple with in the Big Picture, but it does >raise the stakes and promote a feeling that the clock is ticking. I agree, it could make an good paragraph in the history of the Karotechia and explains why Nyarlathotep is interested in the Third Reich. I just don't see much more than that if the background doesn't rise a bit more to the surface. It's not that I can't see this way of thinking as without game utility, but not on its own. My whole post on dgww2 on Lionel Beaumont and DG psychological warfare ops is meant as a step in that direction, but it needs a lot of work if it's gonna move beyond just interesting conversation. At least that's my opinion, which I admit could simply be a failing of my imagination. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:05 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > It looks like most of us have zeroed in on Nyarlathotep as the patron of > the Nazis. That fits in well with what is in the source books. Now, if we > have Nyarly manipulating Bitterich by appearing to him as Friedrich the > Great, Bismarck, Nietzsche, Arminius, Siegfried and a transcendent Hitler; > why can't we have the Thulegesselschaft getting advice from the "Enlightened > Masters" of Atlantis? Right. If we think of memes like Arisophistry (and its mutant child Nazism) as the "drivers" in real Life, we can do a Mythos spin on them in Delta Green. May I us bring up something I suggested 'way back? That the Yithians had a "plan" for Germany, and that that is one of the reasons why Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and the information necesary for nuclear power came into being here? Not to mention rocketry. My suggestion (based on the let's-make-everything-as-morally-ambiguous-as possible principal) was that the Yithians had intended to get a small segment of humanity off-earth before the End Times and they therefore pounced (more or less a random) on the Germans, mindswap-Illuminated one man (Hitler) with their plan, and imbued him with the memes that they had had to adopt in order to make their great Escape jumps - to wit, assemble the elite, sacrifice the rest, and save the race. At the same time they trickled knowledge of moderately advanced physics into other hominids' heads. The Germans would come to understand the EndTimes within an Arisophist framework, probably as an analog of "Ragnarok", and a small group of "pure" Germans would make it past the EndTimes by these means. That was the plan, anyhow. It failed because he Germans did not get nukes, as the Yithians had intended: rather than working with the scientists they drove the jewish ones and their many non-jewish sympathisers out. The Yithians did not understand the buisness of ethnic conflict. (I have sometimes thought that of the two great advances in physics last century, Quantum Mechanics was an essentially *German* idea; one that could only come into being by the dreamy, misty, banks of the Rhine. While Relativity was essentially jewish - all laws and measurements, but seen from the perspective of god, not man. I suspect his idea is a load of balls, but it is good for a laugh.) You might mix in other GOO here - I am sure Nyarly had his own plans and understood such things as race hate much better than the Yithians. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:24 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) At 03:12 AM 1/5/02 -1000, The Man in Black wrote: >The Karotechia had the Tectonic Agitator, with which they almost "erased >the works of god" by redrawing the continents, and the Donnerschlag >(Thunderclap) Supersonic Resonator with which they hoped to sink all >allied ships and airplanes within it's nearly unbelievable range. Like >it or not, they're two thirds of the way to being Antarctic Space Nazis, >all they need is to gain access to outer space... perhaps by cutting a >deal with the Greys to save Bitterich's brain... The destination isn't the problem, but how you get there can be. Antarctic Space Nazis goes straight for the kewl gadgetry, supporting itself with a house of cards (the Thule Society were into the occult, so they must be sorcerors worshipping dark gods; the Ahnenerbe had all these radical scientific theories, so they must have all kinds of UFO technology). Sounds great in a Ken Hite article, but needs something extra when dealing with gritty horror. There's nothing inherently wrong with secret Nazi bases in Antarctica and powerful weapons based on extradimensional theories, but it only works outside of a pulp campaign if there's a plausible explanation for how these things developed (plausible within the geography of the genre - I don't want to get into that whole "Deep Ones are just as hokey as Vril" nonsense). Being as true to the history, tying the weirdness into the accepted Mythos, and keeping it all coherent are the tools to maintain the plausibility that suspends disbelief and makes horror work. >You need to take a look at the Cthulhu Live supplements: Lost Souls, >Shades of Grey and Delta Green. The Thulegesellschaft is described >therein as an offshoot/weird science branch of the Karotechia. On the dgww2 Yahoo site, you can search on Thulegesellschaft for a post I wrote not too long ago detailing everything that had been written on them in the Delta Green books and those three CL supplements. I'm not happy with everything CL did with the Thulists, but it's nothing that can't be worked around. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:48 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com; deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia At 05:05 PM 1/5/02 +0000, Andy Robertson wrote: >My suggestion (based on the let's-make-everything-as-morally-ambiguous-as >possible principal) was that the Yithians had intended to get a small >segment of humanity off-earth before the End Times and they therefore >pounced (more or less a random) on the Germans, mindswap-Illuminated one man >(Hitler) with their plan, and imbued him with the memes that they had had to >adopt in order to make their great Escape jumps - to wit, assemble the >elite, sacrifice the rest, and save the race. Eliminate the mindswap Hitler part, and it's solid. Why eliminate mindswapping Hitler? Because this goes back to vomit-inducing idea that the Third Reich was some Mythos construct, rather than a human construct exploited by the Mythos. Human beings are capable of great evil all on their own. >It failed because he Germans did not get nukes, as the Yithians had >intended: rather than working with the scientists they drove the jewish ones >and their many non-jewish sympathisers out. Failing to get nukes would not necessarily have stopped Projekt RAGNAROK cold. The Yiths could still mindswap enough Karotechia to get them the advanced technology needed to get a small population off the planet and save the race. What could have stopped it cold was Delta Green, which lead to some frightening implications for their "success". Back in August 2000, I posted this: I could've sworn that in an offical broadcast on OUR DARKEST HOUR, an ad-like blurb mentioned "the Great Race" as being the primary Mythos race of that book (perhaps in the same way the Mi-Go figure into DG and the Shan figure into COUNTDOWN). I tried going through my 15-meg file of related posts and whatnots on all this, but I can't find the direct quote. Still, if it's legit, then official canon will soon have the Yithians not as the benign scholars looking for a clean quiet place to study in peace as they appeared to Professor Peaslee (who was, oddly enough, a benign scholar - I'm sure there's no coincidence there), but as movers and shakers in the timestream, not just spies but agents, out to shape the future in their image. Throwing in what's been discussed, the Yithians would be a force beyond just making the stars right in this timeline, but in all timelines.... ... unless they really are benign and maybe even anti-Mythos, in which case I'm even more excited to learn about their role in OUR DARKEST HOUR. Perhaps they were here in the '40s, trying to arm humanity before its final confrontation with the Mythos, sharing their science and knowledge to a society they promoted to at least put up a fight if not survive the Endtimes. Maybe the last best hope for human survival were the Nazis. Gil Trevizo furrylogic@mindspring.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:02 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > So Hitler was not a man that facilitated great evils by both > the state and the individual through power given from the fears and > prejudices of people across Europe and even the world, but was a creature > of the Mythos empowered with strange hypnotic magic that worked the German > people into a spell, and the Holocaust was not due to the failings of > little men but out of Mythos magic. Vomit. > > And no, I'm not saying anyone explicitly said this. Catalogue this under > "nipping in the bud." Since no one explicitly, implicitly, complicitly or in any other way indicated they were thinking along those lines and in fact spent most of the time putting the responsibility on humans and limited the Mythos influence to telling people what they wanted to hear -- thanks for the timely nip. Now clean up the vomit and find something more appropriate to hurl on. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Yossi Gurvitz [ygurvitz@netvision.net.il] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:51 PM To: Andy Robertson Cc: Dicky Claudio Samban; Jacob Fishberg Subject: Re[2]: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia Hello Andy, Saturday, January 05, 2002, 6:24:02 PM, you wrote: AR> It wasn't *deliberate*. I have no way of knowing if Ezikeil (for example) AR> was a loony or a charlaan or if the finger of some god actually touched him. I just wish they had a good asylum in Jerusalem at the time. Things might have turned out for the better. AR> I'd like to say "try to stay sane", but I'm not sure I meaningfully can, not AR> being in any situation like yours. :-( Uh, good luck. I'll do my best, but things around here are falling apart faster than expected. The thing that bothers me the most - and which may well be on topic - is the fact that people get used to it very quickly. We've had a quiet time of it for three weeks now, but before that... Five years ago, there was a terrible series of terror attacks. In one bloody week, there were six deadly attacks, and the weekly toll was some 100 people dead, 150+ wounded. The country shook. People went to the streets, tried to storm the Ministry of Defense. The government couldn't fall, since elections were already declared, but it lost them. Nobody spoke of anything else. Newspapers went hysterical ("A Panicked Country" was smeared (in red and black) all over the front page of Yediot, the largest newspaper, after the last attack). It was Purim, generally a time for merriment, costumed balls, and parties. Gloomiest holiday I've ever seen. I walked in Dizzengoff Center, a major mall and cultural icon in Tel Aviv, which suffered a suicide attack a week before; it was deathly quiet, empty. My footsteps echoed there. That was then. Now, we've been under a terror attack for over a year. There have been some devastating attacks - in a disco, in a pizza diner, in a children's bus, in an ice cream parlor; they seem to pick on children and youth - but mostly it's a deadly attack per day, one person, maybe two, at a time. And it took us two or three months to get used to it. People speak of other things, mostly; people rarely listen to the news anymore; the papers are subdued; and if anyone demonstrated, nobody noticed it. Conversations become sardonic. "I'm taking the bus to the mall; if I'm not back in two hours, watch the news". "How many did we lose today?" "Two." "Well, could have been a lot worse." On one bus ride, a lady went off the bus at one stop; someone cried, "hey, lady, you forgot your bags"; and the whole bus - myself included - cringed, crouched, and waited for the blow that never came. She came back, took her bags, went down, ignoring the dirty looks; and only then did people exhale. The most popular Hebrew song of the last year - and a masterpiece to which I am about to do injustice - has a refrain that goes: "It could get better, But it could be a worse disaster; Who's next in line, And who's in the next line? Goodnight, Hope; welcome, Despair." The song is haunting; enough so that some dimwit of a general suggested banning it as "breeding despair". Yet they play it almost daily. People want to hear it. On TV, the footage that comes with it is of actual events: shootings, lynching, places burning, forensics teams picking up body parts... And yet, people go to work. People ride the buses, people send their children to malls. Life goes on. Something that would not be tolerated five years ago is now daily life; and nobody honestly thinks this will change. Aside from conquering the PA, aside from assassinating Arafat, the military tried every trick. None worked. It's a war of attrition. We may be winning it, if this phrase has any meaning; but people are living in quiet desperation. It reminds me of that quote from "From Beirut to Jerusalem" that says, roughly, that at first the father was afraid to let his children out when there was fighting in the North; then when there fighting in the outskirts of Beirut; then, only when was fighting in West Beirut; then, only when there was fighting in his own neighbourhood; until, as he says, "if the fire fight isn't in my own building, I am not worried". Beirut had it much worse. Yet people kept living there. People adapt to everything. Get used to everything. Will the End Times come "as a thief in the night", or will it be merely just a shade darker than daily life? Will people notice the End Times are here, or will they "kill and scream and revel in joy" because they have been accustomed to do so for years, and the fact that there's a huge tentacled beast on the horizon mean less than the fact that there's a sniper in your apartment room? (How long have I been ranting?) Yours, Yossi _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:54 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia > > I'm not personally religious, I say that Religion was > > used as a patent excuse, maybe. War, however, is caused by economics and > > population pressure, nothing more. > > I was with you until you tacked-on the "nothing more." Were the Crusades >about relieving population pressure? Actually,good friend of mine was a history major while we were still in college (before you wonder too much, I've a degree in Philosophy and am thus one of those muddle-headed Liberal Arts types). In a truly beautiful treatise, he showed that the early Crusades were motivated more by greed and protection of trade routes than the "lofty" aims of the Church. So, yeah, I'd say that religion wasn't the prime motivator there. I'll have to see if I can get a copy of that text. > First, patent excuses for bad behavior are important. If people won't do >bad things without an excuse, it behooves us to study the nature of the >excuse mechanism. Try whipping up a nationalistic frenzy with honest >slogans. "We're greedy and want their stuff!" "Let's feel better about >ourselves!" "We feel powerless and want to kill something!" > I'm reading Stanley Milgram's "Obedience to Authority" right now. It sure >doesn't take much authority to allow people to shuck responsibility for >their actions. Again, if you agree that religion was a poor excuse, why blame it? You've heard the adage "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"? Th e logic is applicable here as well. > It's easier to blame religion than to grapple with the issues. But I >don't >think Andy was blaming religion for the actions of the believers. He's >seldom so simplistic, and he knows about the good things it can bring about >first hand. True, I am likely as guilty of oversimplification. > Hehe. During the 80s I advocated shooting Jodie Foster to get Reagan's >attention. Nothing else seemed to work. ;-) Jelly beans, man. > Both Stalin and Hitler operated within belief systems that were at least >as >strong as the worst aspects of (some) religion. It doesn't matter whether >those two individuals were believers, they personally were only as >dangerous >as any individual with a trigger finger. It's when they had a nation behind >them that they got to be world-class shitheads. This was the point I was making. Don't blame the ideology for the extremist. R W -- _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:05 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) > It happened before, in Russia. And concentration camps are a > British idea, originally (the Boer War). > > Why do people forget about the Soviet atrocities? Why aren't they as > prominent in our thinking? Oh, right: they were all done in the name > of mankind, so the murder of tens of millions doesn't really count. > Grease on the wheels of the revolution and all that. Actually, I can recall an article written in... the Washington Post, I think, right near the end of the Millenium, and it polled N number of New Yorkers asking who the Greatest Villain of the Millenium was. Bill Clinton rated higher on that list than Stalin (who was 6th, I might add). I really wonder where the education system failed... R W _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 2:54 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > HOUR. Perhaps they were here in the '40s, trying to arm humanity before > its final confrontation with the Mythos, sharing their science and > knowledge to a society they promoted to at least put up a fight if not > survive the Endtimes. Maybe the last best hope for human survival were the > Nazis. My point. On top of that, they blew it by persecuting the jews, at least the jewish scientists, who were a crucial part of getting it all together - which is where my dubious-ethnic-stereotype stuff about Relativity = "judaistic" idea and QM = "Ariosophist" idea comes in. I take your point about mindswap Hitler making the essence of Nazism weaker and less real. However what I was trying to bring in was the idea that the Yithian *were* peaceful benevolent intellectuals. By provoking the Nazi stuff they are trying to save humanity - possibly out of genuine good will. But from their POV the Holocaust is just below noise level, however horrific it is on the human scale. Their plan involved the death of 99.99% of humanity to save the oher 0.01%. Possibly one could salvage both ideas by allowing the Yithians the attempt to save humanity, while blaming on the Nazis the inter-tribal ethnic war that doomed it? But that also has a feeling of "patness" about it, going back too far towards the idea that the Nazis are the ultimate in all evil. What I want is a situation where the Nazis are indeed at the extreme of the scale of *humanly scaled* evil, but where the benevolently intentioned meddling of a Mythos race would 1) cause such death and suffering as to make the name of the Nazis be blessed by comparisom 2) actually save some of humanity, whch nothing else would do. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of John Petherick [jpetheri@cyberbeach.net] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:19 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: RE: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com > [mailto:owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com]On Behalf Of Michael Layne > Sent: January 5, 2002 3:01 PM > To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com > Subject: Re: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting > > The D29 System is (IMHO) rather underused. There is a > tendency for many > to confuse it with the D20 System, though the two systems obviously use > different polyhedral dice! > > What's the best place to find D29s? My local game stores > don't seem to > stock them at present, and aren't sure where to order them!:) > > Michael Layne > DGGF#688 > theherald@hotmail.com > The D29 system is, by it's very nature, a vastly superior homebrew system. First, you start by filing a side off of a d30, then you take it from there ... _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:20 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia >Indeed, I agree. Religions don't cause war. But they act, among *many* >other things, to **validate** the destruction of a tribe's enemies by >giving >genocide or ethnic displacement a bogus rationale. Look through history >and you will see this. This is an argument I've heard before. I am not defending religion from a standpoint of a believer. I am defending it from the standpoint of a dispassionate philosopher, theologian, and _amateur_ historian. Much of history itself would not exist without religion to support it. Most of the early historians would have been illiterate dirt farmers without the religious life to support them and allow them to chronicle. Going back further, find me a "tribe" that developed any sort of written or oral tradition seperate from its' religion. >Do religions have "good" effects? Of course. They enforce internal amity >wihin the tribe. Nazism had many good effects - for the tribe that >adopted >it - until its bad effects on everyone else led to its gesquelching. Not disagreeing there. Merely stating that decrying the entirety of religion for the actions of the rare extremist is not very solid logic. This is the sort of logic that leads one to decide that all Ford autos are bad because Henry Ford was a bigot and a general bastard towards everyone. > > What about Stalin? Stalin was most assuredly not religious (nor do I >think > > Hitler was particularly religious) and committed atrocities that make >Hitler > > look like a piker with a good PR agent. > >Smart man. He did indeed commit atrocities that make Hitler look like a >piker. And his genocide-validating religion was . . . . . Marxism,. >which >validated the destruction of the kulaks as "class enemies" and located its >transcendence in economic theory so deliberately obfusticated that no one >could see what was wrong with it. > >Clear your mind of the misapprehension that a religion is necessarily >supernatural. Clear your mind of the mistaken belief that I will not take you literally and at face value. You rather pointedly said "religion", not ideology. Marxism and Nazism are both ideologies. If you wish to debate the relative worth of ideologies, I will do so, but please don't expand the definition after the discussion has started. >Ever wondered why left wing ideas are so fuzzy and anti-rational? >Deconsructionalism? Dada? Derridha? > >It is because they are basically *religious* in origin. Somewhat, but only in the sense that they ask us to believe in something sublime, intangible and wholly without empirical proof - the good intentions of the left wing ruling class. R W -- _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:33 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia (was Re: [DG] K'nyan and the Black Stone) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > I don't > want to get into that whole "Deep Ones are just as hokey as Vril" > nonsense). Which is probably why this is at least the second time you've brought it up. Don't put words in my mouth. Cut and paste and get the quote right. " Uh huh. But the byakhees and Deep Ones and Dark Young that they know full well are on the menu down the line don't ruin the gritty atmosphere at all at all. Just so long as we make sure that all of that Ariosophy stuff remains bunk. We wouldn't want the mood to be ruined by stuff that is *ridiculous*." Otherwise, a statement like: "But by and large, Nazi occultism is what the Karotechia bring to the Mythos, not what brings the Karotechia to the Mythos." could be mangled into you at one time thinking there wasn't much about Ariosophy worth looking at. Which your latest posts show is clearly not the case. Mark McFadden Gets really snippy to the edge of pettiness when misquoted. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:12 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yossi Gurvitz" > > (How long have I been ranting?) You can rant at us any time. Sometimes I look at the peace and safety of my own life right now and think it must be a dream. The Glove Cleaner Well, I've had hard times, but not at this level. > > Yours, > Yossi > > > _______________________________________ > The Delta Green Mailing List > http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ > > > _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dave Pullen [david.pullen3@virgin.net] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:25 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Petherick" > The D29 system is, by it's very nature, a vastly superior homebrew system. > First, you start by filing a side off of a d30, then you take it from there > ... > Silly Human. Just roll a d9 across the relevant number of dimensions. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Michael Layne [theherald@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:32 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting On 3 January 2002, balance@tubas.net wrote: >>"CHAOSIUM UNVEILS NEW GAME SETTING, COMING SOON." >>http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/d20cthulhu/8800.shtml > >Offhand, it's a good idea. it adds some seperation from Cthulhu classic >(and Delta Green) as being the more 'serious' eras whereas the D20 >version will be placed in a less rigorous setting where the heroes are >notch more powerful, in a 'heroic' sense as oppsed to an 'elder god >style' sense. Would probably be the best milieu for that old investigator of mine, Commander Michael Grant, the "Shenandoah" survivor who was likely the only airshipman in ONI! I sort of envisioned him as a frustrated pulp hero stuck in a too-gritty world...:) (As his first adventure was before DG's premiere, he sometimes carried out missions "for ONI" -- retconning things, he probably was a part-timer for Div P when he wasn't aboard the "Los Angeles" or "Akron" or whatever...) Speaking of airships in a possible CoC setting... One of the major NPCs in "Beyond the Mountains of Madness" was a survivor of the "Italia" crash. For some details of that incident, and possible inspiration for further Arctic Airship Adventures (tm), see "Disaster at the Top of the World", in the January 2002 issue of "Aviation History" Magazine, or online at: http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/bltopoftheworld4.htm I think I recall an airship CoC adventure in "Fearful Passages", which I had the opportunity to buy once at a con, but bought the 2nd Ed Dreamlands instead... And now, of course, "Fearful Passages" is OOP! And I remember seeing another airship adventure in a 1920s module years and years ago... We were running entirely modern-day stuff at the time, however, and the Keeper couldn't figure out how to update that one to the 1980s! (And he has since moved to Mississippi... or was it Louisiana?) Michael Layne DGGF#688 theherald@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:32 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia ----- Original Message ----- From: "R W" >Do religions have "good" effects? Of course. They enforce internal amity >wihin the tribe. Nazism had many good effects - for the tribe that >adopted >it - until its bad effects on everyone else led to its gesquelching. >Not disagreeing there. Merely stating that decrying the entirety > of religion for the actions of the rare extremist is not very solid logic. Right. I am going to preemptively agree with everything you say, because I think we are not arguing about much except words. We agree that religions have both good and bad effects: You chose to call Nazism and Marxism "ideologies" rather than "religions", and I have no problem with that use of words. However, what I am talking about embraces both classes of belief. Was I deliberately fuzzy in my use of words? Yes. Sorry, I had a DG hat on. I apologise, but let me explain. It is an old kick of mine that Religions or ideologies (or what Dawkins calls Memes) are the nearest thing to the GOO in real life - entities which are a layer "above" humanity in the existential scale, coded into the fabric of humanity, much as humanity is embedded in the ecosphere. So I spoke of all religions as great, awful and aggressive things, because that is what the GOO are, and I was trying to draw the analogy. GOO? But of course they are just beng born The oldest is only about 5000 years old. But they fight, they mutate, they spread, they are evolving fast. They chew up humanity like chaff. They can encode their essence in a few grams of text. My somewhat stylied language was meant to prompt readers toward this end. In particular I wanted people to think of Nazissm as a failed or upstart "GOO", and of Marxism as another of slightly greater viability. > in something >?sublime, intangible and wholly without empirical proof - the good intentions >of the left wing ruling class. No man who makes such profoundly Sound statements will ever see much disagreement from me. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [michelina.ponsetto@tin.it] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 4:25 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] New D29 CofC Setting Cheers. >>http://www.chaosium.com/cthulhu/d20cthulhu/8800.shtml > > Sounds like it could be a reasonably interesting game... > > The D29 System is (IMHO) rather underused. There is a tendency for > many to confuse it with the D20 System, though the two systems obviously > use different polyhedral dice! > > What's the best place to find D29s? My local game stores don't seem to > stock them at present, and aren't sure where to order them!:) Can't help you there, but I keep suggesting the ever handy D69 - which we actually used for the character creation in a homegrown system a few years back. Sadly, system and setting were not perfectly matched.... Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 4:32 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia > Will the End Times come "as a thief in the night", or will it be > merely just a shade darker than daily life? Will people notice the > End Times are here, or will they "kill and scream and revel in joy" > because they have been accustomed to do so for years, and the fact > that there's a huge tentacled beast on the horizon mean less than > the fact that there's a sniper in your apartment room? Powerful statement, sir. I've been watching the situation in Israel with what can only be termed as a morbid fascination. I am not so pedantic as to claim any insights, nor so purile as to attempt to empaathize in any but the barest fashion. Nonetheless, thank you for giving some insight into the situation from the ground floor, as it were. I also must agree that it is on topic. The End Times will enter with the proverbial whimper, not a bang. Perhaps the Stars are nearly right now... R W _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of R W [moonduck@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 4:49 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Nazi Occultism and the Karotechia >I am going to preemptively agree with everything you say, because I think >we >are not arguing about much except words. Thank you, sir. Not only am I always happy to hear someone preemptively agreeing with the entirety of my babbling, I am doubly happy when someone else realizes that we are arguing word choice. I am notorious dogged about arguments and generally unaware when I descend into the twisted realms of semantics. >We agree that religions have both good and bad effects: Agreed. >You chose to call Nazism and Marxism "ideologies" rather than "religions", >and I have no problem with that use of words. However, what I am talking >about embraces both classes of belief. *shrug* The only real difference, IMO, between a religion and an ideology is the Godhead. >Was I deliberately fuzzy in my use of words? Yes. Sorry, I had a DG hat >on. *nod* >I apologise, but let me explain. > >It is an old kick of mine that Religions or ideologies (or what Dawkins >calls Memes) are the nearest thing to the GOO in real life - entities which >are a layer "above" humanity in the existential scale, coded into the >fabric >of humanity, much as humanity is embedded in the ecosphere. I am rather familiar with the Meme Thoery, fascinating stuff. I was properly amazed at how exactly insightful the meme concept was. It is, of itself, an addictive and pervasive mem, yet refuses to propegate fully. Oh well. >So I spoke of all religions as great, awful and aggressive things, because >that is what the GOO are, and I was trying to draw the analogy. I can see it, but I think the analogy wears thin simply because rare indeed is the GOO what actually performs some good in the world. >GOO? > >But of course they are just beng born > >The oldest is only about 5000 years old. Erm, I think the pre-Aryan worship of fire-spirits in India might be a bit older than that, but my history is right weak in that area. I studied the thin records of the worship without actually placing it in a timeline, bad choice on my part. >But they fight, they mutate, they spread, they are evolving fast. > >They chew up humanity like chaff. > >They can encode their essence in a few grams of text. I can see the analogy, I really can, yet the GOO's are pretty universally grim still. Well, perhaps Nodens/Nuada isn't _quite_ so grim, but he's not nice. >My somewhat stylied language was meant to prompt readers toward this end. > >In particular I wanted people to think of Nazissm as a failed or upstart >"GOO", and of Marxism as another of slightly greater viability. I'd personally say that Marxism failed as handily as Nazism has. The only systems in place that still harken back directly to Marxism are running on inertia. >snip my sideways sniping at the Liberals< >No man who makes such profoundly Sound statements will ever see much >disagreement from me. Many thanks, good sir. R W _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Eckhard Huelshoff [EHuelshoff@t-online.de] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 4:56 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Becoming a Ghoul Good Evening. You can kick or sue me, if this is a stupid question, but: What does it *really* need to become a ghoul? I am talking of the "final step". Cannibalism or rather the eating of the dead can only be a part of the process, since it is a rather common thing among serial killers or those starving. Upon Napoleon's retreat from Russia, as well as during the siege of Leningrad during WWII, people have eaten the flesh of the dead. Cannibalism has become a common treat among the serial killers in post-communist Russia. And not all of them have become ghouls. So, what is the additional thing that turns the regular corpse eater into a ghoul? eckhard _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Berin Kinsman [deltagreen@unclebear.com] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:35 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Becoming a Ghoul I asked this very same question when watching the movie "Ravenous". People drink human blood, eat human flesh, and gain super strength, wound regeneration, and immortality. Seems too simple, everyone would be doing it if it were that easy. Of course, who's to say the Russian serial killers aren't ghouls. Or, maybe, mad humans playing Renfield to some real ghoul's Dracula. In context of DG/CoC, however, I think there are ritual components involved. Ask Agent Nancy... if you dare. -berin ******** Conspiracy and Modern Horror Resources http://unclebear.com/deltagreen Delta Green: De Profundis http://deltaprofundis.blogspot.com --- EHuelshoff@t-online.de (Eckhard Huelshoff) wrote: >Good Evening. > >You can kick or sue me, if this is a stupid question, but: > >What does it *really* need to become a ghoul? > >I am talking of the "final step". Cannibalism or rather the eating of the dead >can only be a part of the process, since it is a rather common thing among >serial killers or those starving. Upon Napoleon's retreat from Russia, as well >as during the siege of Leningrad during WWII, people have eaten the flesh of the >dead. Cannibalism has become a common treat among the serial killers in >post-communist Russia. > >And not all of them have become ghouls. > >So, what is the additional thing that turns the regular corpse eater into a >ghoul? > > >eckhard > >_______________________________________ >The Delta Green Mailing List >http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ _____________________________________________________________ UNCLE BEAR: news, commentary and community for the escapist mind http://unclebear.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Machiavelli132@aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:36 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Becoming a Ghoul I believe it's the presence of nearby ghoul colonies. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Aardvark of Fnords [nyar@fnord23.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:33 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Becoming a Ghoul On Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 11:55:52PM +0100, Eckhard Huelshoff wrote: > So, what is the additional thing that turns the regular corpse eater into a > ghoul? In game run by a friend of mine, in which we played PC ghouls, one was turned into a ghoul at the moment of death, by another ghoul. A little bit like the Pale Pooch vampire "embrace". Of course, I had to be different, and my PC (being the bookworm researcher of the party, with a POW of 7), I chose the Debra Constance method. "Bill" and his books became a running joke with the party, especially after having a critical POW role in a library while researching the Castaigne family tree... Jon -- Ying-tong-yiddle-I-po! _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [michelina.ponsetto@tin.it] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:48 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Becoming a Ghoul Greetings. Eckhard failed to check the Ice Cave and wrote ;> >You can kick or sue me, if this is a stupid question, but: > >What does it *really* need to become a ghoul? > >I am talking of the "final step". Cannibalism or rather the eating of the >dead >can only be a part of the process, since it is a rather common thing among >serial killers or those starving. Upon Napoleon's retreat from Russia, as >well >as during the siege of Leningrad during WWII, people have eaten the flesh >of the >dead. Cannibalism has become a common treat among the serial killers in >post-communist Russia. > >And not all of them have become ghouls. > >So, what is the additional thing that turns the regular corpse eater into a >ghoul? Back in the days of yore (I knew him well etc.) we discussed the Ghoul transformation suffered by a DG agent in one of the Alien Intelligence stories, linking the phenomenon to prions and stuff. It's all in the Cave (in the critters database), but basically, the story seems to imply/suggest that all the major traits of ghoul-dom are brought up by the reading (and possibly by the handling) of a certain unholy tome described in the above-mentioned story. This is of course a single take on the events as told in the story. We could imagine that a certain ghoul character sort of "gave a little push" to start the transformation - maybe using some form of spell. And let's not forget the fact that ghouls used to place changelings in human homes back in the days of HPL - see Pickman's Model for further reference. So maybe there's a string of ghoul-ready genetic code in our DNA, waiting for activation. Indeed, the discussion is by now two years old if not older, and so a revamping of the subject might be interesting. I'm sure the medicine/biology doctors on the list will be happy to chime in. Me, being just a rockhound, I toyed once with the idea that the change might start in the Dreamlands and then seep through to the Wakeworld. Ghouls are after all creatures that partake of both Wakeworld and Slumberland. In such a scenario, the "regular" cannibal starts seeing himself as a ghoul in his dreams, feeling the ghoul-self as a better representation of his older, regular dream self. Progressively the transformation occurs. So maybe you need to be both a cannibal and a strong dreamer to turn into a ghoul. Just a pair of ideas, of course. Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/