From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of balance@tubas.net Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 11:39 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] So what has 'killed' the game... On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 11:59 AM, Janusz A. Urbanowicz wrote: > Anarchy wrote/napisa³[a]/schrieb: > >> There's obviously a great need for a Player's guide, an equipment >> guide, >> and of course, in general, more material (non-fiction). > > I don't agree; from my POV, with Countdown avaliable there is almost as > much material as one would need (at least for playing DG within US). > There > are slight needs for: a large 'official' campaign, and I'd personally > enjoy > Cult of Transcendence book. Don't forget that there is a reprint of > DG:Eyes > Only in the works (I'll buy this for sure - I haven't laid my hands on > the > original EO books). Besides the EO books (Which I'd love to pick up the collection thereof) I think the most valuable resource would be a player's guide. As a previous thread discussed, the information on tradecraft and the like combined with an overview of what DG agents probably know would be invaluable. Ideally, for flavor, I'd want it 'in character' to add both deniability (So Agent Jones says that? Pity it's really this...) and hlp set the mood. Imagine a tradecraft document sprinkled with mythos-related comments, etc. > After a thought I think that sort of 'official timeline' would be > useful but > not in the form as it has in the White Wolf WOD, but sort of yearly > updates > similar to the one about Embassy Row massacre, or simple Cell A yearly > ordersi explaining how to approach changing situation. Hmmm... Possible. I don't know how necessary this is, but... > I think that as a game the DG is pretty complete. The rest is up to the > gamers. I guess this'd count for almost any game. -- Brett LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? (Reaper Man, Terry Pratchett) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:41 PM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] Coming Back I figured the reason Willet could summon 117 was 117's essential saltes were prepared and ready (IIRC Orne was removed from the premises in the middle of his summoning). That seems to be the hard part of the spell... turning a corpse (all of it, else you end up with ye liveliest awfulness) into two distinct compounds which, when mixed and combined with the proper incantations result in old friends stopping by. -----Original Message----- From: ElLocoToro@aol.com [mailto:ElLocoToro@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:23 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Coming Back It beats me how Dr. Willet could just wave his hands and summon Subject 117 by reading the spell, if its purported to be so difficult, but hey... HPL wasn't perfect. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:29 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Re: Pox Technology ( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > At 09:45 AM 1/30/2002 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: > > Right and wrong, good and evil are (AFAIK) purely human inventions, but > >that doesn't mean they aren't important to the characters that inhabit > >either the RW and the Lovecraftian universe. > > I never said that, Mark. What I said was: > > > The creative > > challenge is not to dilute that by trying to make our stereotypical > > conception of "souls" a reality in a Lovecraftian universe. That just > > turns it all into another tired good vs evil dichotomy with Cthulhu > > playing > > the role of Satan (or Nylary, if you're more Milton than Dante). The real > > challenge is to make the soul as material as a clockwork mechanism. I know Gil, that's why the very same quote you so helpfully reiterated was in my original message. Now take a deep breath, let the adrenaline fizz away and read what I wrote again without the fight-or-flight reflexes getting in the way. I would hardly go about putting words in someone elses mouth after taking someone to task over it, but thanks for the insinuation. > Replace "good vs evil" with "heroes vs villains" or "us vs them" or "Right > vs Wrong." You mean like binary choices? Cuz you know I've always advocated reducing everything to a simple set of good and bad sides. > My point was that, while souls in a Lovecraftian universe is > not necessarily a bad idea, it's important to not use the stereotypical > idea of souls as the item through which all meaning and redemption of human > existence can be objectified or else it turns our Lovecraftian stories into > just another action movie where the only dillemma is in how the hero will > triumph over the villain. Suddenly, the struggle is Righteous because we > are saving our Souls. And my point was and is that what a soul "is" doesn't really matter when we are talking about actions and the motivations for them. Humans will create meaning where there is none. And they will act upon the artificial meaning as if it were real and objective. The absolute nature of Reality within the game is known only to the Keeper; the PCs aren't supposed to know that everything is hopeless any more than they are supposed to be aware of the inevitability of the reign of the Coleopterans down the line. Good and Evil might be ultimately meaningless in a Lovecraftian universe, but that certain knowledge is supposed to result in 0 SAN. The mechanism for a clockwork interpretation of souls is already in place when a rhino has the same range of MP as a human being. A starship fuelled by limbless cloned rhinos might look a bit icky, but I wouldn't anticipate much SAN loss at the sight. By the same token, the sight of a bunch of cloned limbless humans powering a starship isn't going to effect someone that sees them as simply useful tissue. Humans, rhinos, what's the difference? So human beings see themselves as special despite all the logic of the Lovecraftian universe. This is why "Soylent Green is people" is a memorable line. By the rules of that universe they are deluding themselves. They are, in fact, nothing much. But again, that's knowledge restricted to the Keeper and insane cultists. In many ways, our sanity is defined by our delusions in a Lovecraftian universe. To "know your role" is to accept a status as GOO food. Come to love your rock because it's all you have. The concepts of good and evil can enhance horror. Say at the climax of a scenario one of the GOO manifests. If that entity is perceived as the embodiment of all we interpret as evil, it's a metaphysical horror. On the other hand, it's also a big slimey thing with tentacles and hit points. Are the PCs taking hits to their SAN because of the knowledge that the ultimate truth of existense is evil monstrosities like that at the center of reality and everything we think we know is wrong, or because big slimey tentacled things give off rays that sap SAN? Which of the interpretations generates despair at the idea of fighting something like that, and which interpretation translates the situation into something solvable with enough firepower? And no, I never said anyone said that. The common conception of a soul is something immortal that for a time inhabits a mortal shell. I think the concept lends itself well to horror. Aye, there's the rub - for if there is no existense beyond life there is no eternity to regret decisions made when decisions could be made. But I don't think you need to trot out Heaven or Hell to make the idea of an existense after death potentially horrific. So, imagine there's no Heaven. It isn't hard to do. Let's say in a tick-tock clockwork universe a soul is a continuation of life in a new bodiless form. The butterfly to the bodie's caterpillar. So let's say that when freed of the limitations of perceiving the universe through mere human senses the immortal soul confronts the Lovecraftian universe for what it is. That's 0 SAN for all eternity. Now maybe that would be fun, but the me typing this dreads that as an inevitable fate. I might be tempted to live on as an ambulating corpsicle or take up cannibalism just to put that off for as long as I can. I'd be willing to bear some pretty hefty fardels and some damn insolent office to avoid that endless dream. Of course, there's a bit of a conundrum there, since certain knowledge of that fate is cause for 0 SAN. Hamlet's Act III scene I soliloquy indicates that you don't need certain knowledge of what happens after death to dread it. In fact, he says that knowledge that there is no existense after death would be a comfort. Who would put up with a laundry list of vexations when he himself might his quietus make with a bare bodkin? Hamlet implies that the suspicion that the existense after death *might* be worse than life is enough to keep everyone scrambling to stay alive. The continued popularity of that passage indicates that a lot of people agree. Or maybe they just like eloquent speechifyin'. I think the idea of an existense after death, specifically a sort of existense where the personality continues and the *you* that was driving a meatmobile prior to death lingers on for eternity has more potential for horror than a model where the soul is like an electrical charge with no consciousness. The challenge is to handle the concept without without summoning all of the tired cliches. But those cliches are not an inevitable consequence of including souls in the equation. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:48 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Souls At 11:28 AM 1/31/2002 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: >Good and Evil >might be ultimately meaningless in a Lovecraftian universe, but that certain >knowledge is supposed to result in 0 SAN. There are the monks in the Kurotokage material, who were supposed to be beyond conceiving of the Mythos is terms of good and evil, yet retained their humanity. Somehow, the monks are able to exist in a Mythos universe without being corrupted by the Mythos or corrupted by fighting against it. For me, this was the most intriguing element in Kurotokage, and the one I really wish had been fully fleshed out. > I think the idea of an existense after death, specifically a sort of >existense where the personality continues and the *you* that was driving a >meatmobile prior to death lingers on for eternity has more potential for >horror than a model where the soul is like an electrical charge with no >consciousness. This is beginning to sound a lot like Wraith. That's not necessarily a bad thing. My question would be is where do these souls go after death? How do they fit into Domain theory? Do all beings have souls, including rhinos and mountain lions and wolves, and is that the source of their POW? And, most important to me, how conscious are these souls? Are they truly the summation of the being that had been physically alive, or are they just some remnant, a shadow fading into the darkness, so that, rather than there being an afterlife there is an epilogue? Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:05 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] Re: Heaven and Hell ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Lizard King" > The common conception of a soul is something immortal > that for a time inhabits a mortal shell. I think the concept > lends itself well to horror. Aye, there's the rub - for if there > is no existense beyond life there is no eternity to regret >decisions made when decisions could be made. But I don't > think you need to trot out Heaven or Hell to make the idea of an existense > after death potentially horrific. In "The Whisperer In Darkness", braincasing is a longed-for afterlife "freed of the limitations of perceiving the universe through mere human senses", as you say. Read Noyes' rhapsodic description. Of course, the cutback is that it is all a cheat. What you fear - "the immortal soul confronts the Lovecraftian universe for what it is" - was to Lovecraft a temptation. The Glover Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:00 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Ghouls and Tcho-Tcho At 07:47 PM 1/14/2002 +0000, Charles Ripper wrote: >>If you look at some of the material, it insinuates that the Tcho Tcho are a >>result of humans interbreeding with the Miri Ngiri, the weird evil dwarves >>of chaugnar faugn. > >This may be true in CoC, though it was only mentioned as a vague >possibility in one of the scenarios using Tcho-Tcho, but in DG: Countdown, >the Tcho-Tcho were specifically identified with the Tocharians, who lived >in the area of Mongolia during the first couple of centuries AD, and >migrated into Pakistan/Afghanistan a couple of hundred years later. I did >a rather long series of posts a year and a half or so back, though I don't >know if they ever made it into the Ice Cave (Davide?) that chronicles a >better connection between the Tocharians and the Southeast Asian Tcho-Tcho. > >Needless to say, the Miri Ngiri/Pyrennes connection just doesn't fit with >an East Asia race (though Scandinavians and Greeks do), so I put it aside >until I could find a better way to fit it in. If Chaugnar Faugn is >connected with the Tcho-Tcho, he is not their source. I've read your Tcho-Tcho history and even incorporated it into my DG campaign. It's great stuff, but I'm confused as to why the Miri Ngiri can't work with it. The Tocharians were a Caucausian people - that's not untenable if we assume that their transformation into the Tcho-Tcho was so pervasive that it caused great physical changes so that they came to resemble Asiatic peoples (but the others Asians might be able to see the subtle difference other races can't detect). This is even in keeping with the racism of Lovecraft, though that's not really a tradition I'd like to continue. Anyways, since the Tocharians were Caucasians, they must've migrated from Europe. Isn't it possible that the proto-Tocharians lived in the Pyrennes, maybe even had some ghoul connections through recessive genes or whatnot, and then were perverted by interbreeding with the Miri Ngiri and worship of Chaugnar Faugn. These practices cause them to be driven out of the Pyrennes and eventually out of Europe, migrating ever eastwards, until they become the Tocharians. And centuries later, as the taint of the Miri Ngiri and the awful rituals breeds further through the Tocharians, they are warped into the Tcho-Tcho we know today. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Anarchy [Anarchy@agentsofchaos.org] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:33 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] So what has 'killed' the game... > > There's obviously a great need for a Player's guide, an equipment guide, > > and of course, in general, more material (non-fiction). > > I don't agree; from my POV, with Countdown avaliable there is almost as > much material as one would need (at least for playing DG within US). There > are slight needs for: a large 'official' campaign, and I'd personally enjoy > Cult of Transcendence book. Don't forget that there is a reprint of DG:Eyes > Only in the works (I'll buy this for sure - I haven't laid my hands on the > original EO books). > > After a thought I think that sort of 'official timeline' would be useful but > not in the form as it has in the White Wolf WOD, but sort of yearly updates > similar to the one about Embassy Row massacre, or simple Cell A yearly > ordersi explaining how to approach changing situation. > > I think that as a game the DG is pretty complete. The rest is up to the > gamers. Oh, DG players and GMs can definately come up with a lot on their own. I think that's half the fun. ;) But when I started the game, my players had no room on their sheets for weapon skills (not enough). Then some of the newer skills on the sheet were missing, like Tradecraft. So I made a new DG character sheet. It isn't perfect, but it was needed, in my opinion. This type of situation soon happened again with their characters not knowing what kind of equipment they could request from DG. Once they established what they could request and obtain, we had to discuss how difficult it would be to get and how long it would take. Then I had to determine what the stats for the equipment would be in the game. For instance, why is the C4 that the Karotechia carries different in damage than the C4 in the Call of Cthulhu player's handbook? And since my players know it comes in 1 1/4 or 2 1/2 pound bricks, should the stats be given for those amounts? And if my players are caught behind enemy lines and need to manufacture their own explosives, what equipment is needed, and what difficulties are involved? Can they make Semtex? How? Basically my players had no book they could look at without risking them seeing the entire game. There was no player's guide or guide to equipment (armor, security systems, computers, modified cars, hacking, etc.) unless I wrote it myself. And there was no explanation of the new skills for them and no list of firearms unless I photocopied it from the book. That is what I feel is lacking - a guide for the actual player, at the very least for the equipment. Scott _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:48 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Souls ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > At 11:28 AM 1/31/2002 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: > >Good and Evil > >might be ultimately meaningless in a Lovecraftian universe, but that certain > >knowledge is supposed to result in 0 SAN. > > There are the monks in the Kurotokage material, who were supposed to be > beyond conceiving of the Mythos is terms of good and evil, yet retained > their humanity. Somehow, the monks are able to exist in a Mythos universe > without being corrupted by the Mythos or corrupted by fighting against > it. For me, this was the most intriguing element in Kurotokage, and the > one I really wish had been fully fleshed out. Hey, it's still in the works. You think coming up with a cosmology that is interesting and playable without resorting to the old standbys is easy? ;-) In the case of Kurotokage we *might* be dealing with a successful tactic in confronting the Mythos, which is usually supposed to be impossible by definition, so we're treading carefully to avoid the usual binary traps. If the monks are to be NPCs only, a little handwaving about how difficult it is to conceive of how they do it without actually doing it is possible, but I think most of us want to be able to have monk PCs possible. We've got to find a way to eff the ineffable if we're going to make playing one possible. > This is beginning to sound a lot like Wraith. That's not necessarily a bad > thing. My question would be is where do these souls go after death? How > do they fit into Domain theory? Do all beings have souls, including rhinos > and mountain lions and wolves, and is that the source of their POW? Speaking of effing the ineffable. I think it would be a mistake to come up with an all-encompassing explanation for souls. What is shown is diminished. Keep Hamlet wondering about what's waiting on the other side. I'd rather see some coherent descriptions of behavior with theories about why they might work that way. Some Domain theory explanations to describe observed behavior, but some consistent magickal explanations as well. Consistent descriptions of parts of the puzzle. > And, most important to me, how conscious are these souls? Are they truly > the summation of the being that had been physically alive, or are they just > some remnant, a shadow fading into the darkness, so that, rather than there > being an afterlife there is an epilogue? Check out "Expiration Date" by Tim Powers to see some of the cool effects you can get by playing with a range of afterlife states. He has an underground economy of captured souls that people huff to increase their own life force. Bizarre ways of continuing to exist on the material plane after death. Ghosts with the reflexes of personality and ghosts well aware of their new form of existence. He has a good percentage of the homeless that you see are ghosts that have maintained a material existence, wandering and mumbling and eating bottle caps and rocks to have material to work with. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:49 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Souls At 12:48 PM 1/31/2002 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: > Speaking of effing the ineffable. I think it would be a mistake to come up >with an all-encompassing explanation for souls. What is shown is diminished. >Keep Hamlet wondering about what's waiting on the other side. > I'd rather see some coherent descriptions of behavior with theories about >why they might work that way. Some Domain theory explanations to describe >observed behavior, but some consistent magickal explanations as well. >Consistent descriptions of parts of the puzzle. Well, yeah, that's what I'm asking - how do souls work in Mythosverse? I keep falling back to dreaming because it is one of the few, if not only, thing in the Mythosverse where the human consciousness transcends the physical. That the ability to dream is somehow tied into POW (at least, how POW is contained within living beings), though not every living thing with POW may dream as we meatpuppets define "dreaming." And that an afterlife as existing only as a soul is much-diminished and ultimately doomed existence - that the soul only exists so long as it can dream creatively, and that physical death cuts off the stimulus that allows for that, so that the dreaming soul cannibalizes their memories to continue their existence, an incest of consciousness. And we all know where incest leads in the Mythosverse. > Check out "Expiration Date" by Tim Powers to see some of the cool effects >you can get by playing with a range of afterlife states. He has an >underground economy of captured souls that people huff to increase their own >life force. Bizarre ways of continuing to exist on the material plane after >death. Again, sounds like Wraith, and again, that's not really a bad thing. I've been itching to tap Wraith's supplement on the Holocaust, Shoah: Charnel Houses of Europe, for use in dgww2. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:27 PM To: Dgrpg (E-mail) Subject: [DG] NYPD Long Arms (*BREEP* Gunfondler Alert! *BREEP*) With the world economic forum meeting in NYC, there are some interesting photos of the police guarding the area... and, natch, all I can look at is the weapons... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020131/168/11iir.html Seems to show an officer with a 5.56mm M4 carbine with surefire tactical light mounted on the hand guard... but then there is... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020131/168/11iim.html Which shows another officer with (what looks like) the full auto version of the 5.56mm Ruger Mini-14. And this guy: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020131/168/11ibu.html Has an MP-5 (as well as some sort of genetic abnormality, considering the look on his face). BTW: Did anyone else notice Falun Gong dropped by?: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020131/168/11i9j.html _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:44 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Ghouls and Tcho-Tcho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > continue. Anyways, since the Tocharians were Caucasians, they must've > migrated from Europe. Remember those blond mummies in China? The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of trueprophet@talk21.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com; deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Coming Back The thing about Ressurection is that not only is it a difficult spell to master, it is also highly dangerous to use - I'm sure everyone knows the lines I mean. From memory, I can get: "The signs have been changed around in nine graveyards out of ten" "Do not call up that which you cannot put down; ask of the lesser lest the greater demand too much of you" (paraphrasing of course; like I said, from memory) In short, how sure are you that the person you ressurect is going to help you? Ressurecting dead Nazi's might be safe..but what if it's a *different* Nazi to the one you think it is? Like an Uber-sorcerer one rather than the novice magician you wanted? It seems to me that the spell is: a) hard to find b) difficult to learn c) Not too hard to cast PROVIDING you have the right equipment and protections. Note the lab. It's not incredibly hard to cast: it's the consequences of casting it that you have to worry about. If you're missing some of the powder, Onlie The Livliest Awefullness may try to tear your face off before you can get rid of it. Of course, you are free to ridicule or just disregard these opinions at your leisure. Voidchaser, spinning theories. > I've been going over HPL's Charles Dexter Ward because it forms the basis for >the material I'm coming up with now, and it seems to me that the Resurrection >spell shouldn't be as "common" as it seems to be. Indeed, it seems to take >Simon Orne years to master it, and even then there is skill involved (he says >something about having to try a couple of times before he got it right). I >wish I could quote the exact lines here. > >Anyway, that's my first point -- that the spell is neither easy nor common. >If every other cultist could be resurrected, where would the fun lie in that? >Besides, there are better ways to have an "immortal sorcerer" in a game: >medical necromancy, cannibalism, and sheer force of will, to name a few. > >It beats me how Dr. Willet could just wave his hands and summon Subject 117 >by reading the spell, if its purported to be so difficult, but hey... HPL >wasn't perfect. > >--Mark >_______________________________________ >The Delta Green Mailing List >http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:53 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Souls ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > At 12:48 PM 1/31/2002 -0800, The Lizard King wrote: > > Speaking of effing the ineffable. I think it would be a mistake to come up > Well, yeah, that's what I'm asking - how do souls work in Mythosverse? I would go for the multi-part pattern. The Egyptians, if I recall, had a soul, but also a ka, and they were separate things. I would suggest some sort of "Astral body" or ka made up of tenuous other-Domain stuff: this is the seat of various telepathic and telekinetic powers, is involved in Dreaming, but is *not* the soul. The Soul remains unknown - it is the seat of consciousness and sensation, but it has no physical being at all - neither in this Domain nor in any other. It is, however, exchanged in the Yithian mind transfer (which is really a Soul transfer) Some aspects of Magic points are indeed milked out of the Astral body. Others, more subtle and complex, seem to require the Souls to be involved. The game mechanism of MP happens to work fairly well, but is actually a bad model of the underlying reality. The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of trueprophet@talk21.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:54 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Souls A question I've been considering for a while about dreaming, and now, by extension, souls: How is the way that people can go to Carcosa or bring Carcosa to them in their sleep different from the way that people go to the Dreamlands in their sleep? In one of Chamber's stories, the artist has dreams of being in a coffin and it's all very Carcosa related. However, this kind of experience is not the same as going to the Dreamlands - and if your soul is in the dreaming, does that mean that Carcosa is, in a way, 'corrupting' or at least altering your soul? if you are infected tby the Vibe, does Carcosa become your afterlife? Will you become an eternal dancer in the Court of Yhtill if you die while submerged or affected by the Vibe? (I'm *really* seeing possibilities here...can you imagine investigators going to Carcosa and seeing deceased investigators that they themselves may have played, with different names like the Marquis Of Somewhere and no memory or knowledge of the PCs?) Voidchaser, Swimming Against the Current >Well, yeah, that's what I'm asking - how do souls work in Mythosverse? > >I keep falling back to dreaming because it is one of the few, if not only, >thing in the Mythosverse where the human consciousness transcends the >physical. That the ability to dream is somehow tied into POW (at least, >how POW is contained within living beings), though not every living thing >with POW may dream as we meatpuppets define "dreaming." And that an >afterlife as existing only as a soul is much-diminished and ultimately >doomed existence - that the soul only exists so long as it can dream >creatively, and that physical death cuts off the stimulus that allows for >that, so that the dreaming soul cannibalizes their memories to continue >their existence, an incest of consciousness. And we all know where incest >leads in the Mythosverse. >Gil -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:54 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Ghouls and Tcho-Tcho At 09:44 PM 1/31/2002 +0000, Andy Robertson wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gil Trevizo" > > continue. Anyways, since the Tocharians were Caucasians, they must've > > migrated from Europe. > >Remember those blond mummies in China? My understanding was that they migrated from Europe. Is there research that the Caucasians in Asia came straight out of Africa? Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Rayburn, Russell E. [RERayburn@cmhmetro.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:10 PM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] Coming Back I like this. The steps for a resurrection would be something like: 1) Find body. 2) Reduce corpse to essential salts. 3) Prepare casting area (obviously reusable). 4) Cast spell. 5) Check results: a) Did it work as intended? (i.e. did I get Onlie The Livliest Awefullness?) b) Do I have who I want? Step 2 seems like a fun one... Thinking of vats of acid, large filters, really Squicky Smells (tm)... not sure what chemicals would reduce flesh to powder (something akin to embalming fluid?) but should be somewhat difficult to obtain. -----Original Message----- From: trueprophet@talk21.com [mailto:trueprophet@talk21.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com; deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Coming Back It seems to me that the spell is: a) hard to find b) difficult to learn c) Not too hard to cast PROVIDING you have the right equipment and protections. Note the lab. It's not incredibly hard to cast: it's the consequences of casting it that you have to worry about. If you're missing some of the powder, Onlie The Livliest Awefullness may try to tear your face off before you can get rid of it. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Andy Robertson [andywrobertson@clara.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:15 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Ghouls and Tcho-Tcho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Trevizo" > > > continue. Anyways, since the Tocharians were Caucasians, they must've > > > migrated from Europe. > > > >Remember those blond mummies in China? > > My understanding was that they migrated from Europe. Is there research > that the Caucasians in Asia came straight out of Africa? Yes, the mummies in China probably came from Europe. But "Caucasian" does not mean "white". For example, Australian Aborigines are classified as Caucasian, as are Indians, Arabs, and many people who live in Oceana (I think). Kennewick Man was "Caucasian". If your Tocharians were "Caucasian" they could have come from India, easily. Of course it depends on the exact details of their physical characteristics - if they had blue eyes or straight blond hair Europe is their only source (though blond hair did develop in a couple of places in the Pacific, I think). The Glove Cleaner _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:58 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Ghouls and Tcho-Tcho At 10:15 PM 1/31/2002 +0000, Andy Robertson wrote: >Yes, the mummies in China probably came from Europe. But "Caucasian" does >not mean "white". For example, Australian Aborigines are classified as >Caucasian, as are Indians, Arabs, and many people who live in Oceana (I >think). Kennewick Man was "Caucasian". If your Tocharians were >"Caucasian" they could have come from India, easily. They probably did come from India, based on the material I've read on the web. Paraphrased, here it is: In the late 3rd millennium, the nucleus of Indo-Europeans, including Tocharian groups, expand from the Black Sea region where they had migrated from India, to enter Europe. But the Tocharians don't leave for Europe but go east back to Asia. About 1200 BC, Tocharian speakers appear in Central Asia, where they had already been a thousand years before. In Central Asia Tocharians contact rather closely with East Iranian people; numerous lexical parallels show their ties took place in the 9th - the 7th centuries BC. Several centuries later Tocharian tribes move further eastwards and reach East Turkestan (modern Chinese province Sinjiang), the Tarim Basin in the 3rd century BC. Here Tocharic texts from both languages of the group were found, they date back to the 5th and the 8th centuries AD. Now the Mytho stuff, cribbed from Charles Ripper's writeup on the Tcho-Tcho. The reference to the Miri Nigri is in The Curse of Chaugnar Faugn: "In the beginnings of time, Chaugnar Faugn made a race of beings to serve it, the Miri Nigri, a race of dark dwarfs fashioned from the flesh of primitive amphibians. The Tcho-tcho are said to have intermingled with the descendants of that hybrid race." And then there is the quote from COUNTDOWN: "They are the Tcho-tchos, a vile, homeless race, perhaps tainted down to their DNA by their long history of cannibalism and worship of the Cthulhu Mythos. No one is sure where they originated. As early as 128 BC, history records a Central Asian tribe known to the Greeks as the Tochoa and to the Chinese as the Yueh-chih. The Tochoans ruled an area encompassing Afghanistan and the southern regions of what is now the former Soviet central-Asian republics until the 3rd century AD, when they were forced east by the Sassanid Persians." So we're dealing with the Tochoans that came out of Indian with the other Indo-Europeans, settled in the Black Sea region for awhile, and then turned eastwards into Central Asia. Now here's a quote from Charles against all this as a connection between the Tochoa and the Tcho-Tcho: "The most damning, though, is simply the question of race. Modern Tcho-tcho are definitely among the Mongoloid/Asian physiotype, with the distinctive eye folds and short stature of the eastern type. The Kushans, or Tochoa, were described by eyewitnesses as tall, red or blond haired and pale skinned. Archaeological examination of the area shows a large number of people with Caucasoid features, and there are tomb paintings and sculpture that depict distinctively sharp-nosed, blond-haired people ruling in Central Asia. Modern archaeologists are now identifying them with the Tochoa." Charles takes this and Tibetan history to develop a theory that the Tcho-Tcho came about when, "sometime between the second century BC and the seventh century AD, a tribe descended from the mixed Caucasoid Tochoa and the Mongoloid Qiong encountered the Plateau of Leng. Certain members of the tribe were engaged by Men of Leng and the Moon Beasts as 'worshippers,' and their offspring were released back into the tribe. As the descendents continued to interbreed, the genetics were spread, until the entire tribe consisted of what we could call 'Tcho-tcho.'" Through various historical processes, this tribe was eventually driven out of Central Asia into Southeast Asia. That's a great theory (kudos also to MiB for creating the Men of Leng connection), but what I'm trying to do here is maintain the link between the Tcho-Tcho and the Miri Nigri, which I don't think is untenable. The Caucasoid Tochoa of this tribe would have come from a culture that came from India to the Black Sea to Central Asia. What could have happened was that either while they were at the Black Sea or through the contact with East Iranian peoples, this tribe developed do to interbreeding with a peoples that had migrated all the way from the Pyrenees - hence the Miri Nigri connection. And it was this tribe that would later cement the deal and become the Tcho-Tcho in Central Asia. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:28 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Coming Back In a message dated 01.31.2002 11+01+12 PM, ludovic.chabant@thales-tts.com writes: << if you were answering to my post, I may have not been very clear. I just meant that, obviously, defying death is something a lot of people would like to be able to do. Immortality is one of the great obsessions of mankind, and that's why the _concept_ of "resurrection" is common. On the other hand, the actual achievement of the resurrection is not common at all, hopefully. >> I got your point and I agree: immortality may be common, but Ressurection (the spell) isn't. --Mark _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jess Nevins [jjnevins@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:42 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] today's headline: "HP and Dreamworks in Unusual Swap." The mind reels.... jess _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ElLocoToro@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 6:01 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Simon Orne (Re: [DG] Coming Back) In a message dated 02.01.2002 12+48+13 AM, EHuelshoff@t-online.de writes: << And because he's ressurected [ and there basically immortal ] he's got time. Much more time than the PCs. He does not need to confront them directly, he can lean back, enjoy his lifestyle and start his plans when he thinks the stars to be right. >> Describes exactly what I'm working on. Simon Orne, who starts off as a student at Edinburgh in the early 1600s is chased out during the Civil War and ends up in Salem with his fellow Edinburgh scholars, Joe Curwen and Ed Hutchinson. The shit hits the fan, their gang is broken up, but this doesn't stop him. He comes back to Salem years later, posing as his own son Jebediah. When that doesn't work, its off to Europe for him and Hutchinson. They shack up in Prague and Transylvania, respectively, and resume contact with Colin Grieve and Maurice Reynard, also old Edinburgh classmates. Orne begins to study caballistic lore under the name "Josef Nadek," and everything goes as planned until CD Ward Resurrects Curwen. After that, things reach a fevered pace until the group's Plans for World Domination are foiled by Dr. Willet and Subject 117, whom he accidentally summons. Orne makes like a cockroach and survives the blast that destroys his apartment in Prague. Discovering that Reynard, Grieve, and Hutchinson are dead, Orne goes underground and starts again (for the third time), now as an occultist by the name of Sebastian von Ornalik in Hungary. Then the fascists come into power and all of a sudden, Hungary is in bed with the Nazis. Orne is handed over to the Karotechia, where he makes the most of it until the war -- like every other war he has lived through -- blows over. He's one of the thousands of displaced persons in Europe. So, until further notice, he's shacked in a concentration-esque refugee camp with dirty water and moldy bread. And so he waits. In 1948 he is recruited by Aaron Blackwood, a former OSS officer now working for the American Office of Policy Coordination. But Blackwood takes his orders not from the OPC, but from The Directorate -- a group of anti-Mythos Ukrainian fascists (another story). OPC and the Directorate begin to rely on Orne's knowledge of the Karotechia to stage missions behind the Iron Curtain aimed at denying occult materiel to the Zalozhni of Smersh. By 1954, Orne wrests control of the Directorate and begins using it for his own purposes. Using Blackwood's contacts in American anti-communist circles, he ingratiates himself with Senator Richard Crawford, a staunch red baiter who made himself a name during the McCarthy era. Orne, Blackwood and the Directorate begin to rely on Crawford's wealth to stage their missions, but for Ornalik it soon becomes clear he needs something more. Crawford, he discovers, wants an heir -- something thats impossible for him, given his impotency. So Orne promises him a son worthy of inheritting his father's mantle, and he promptly gets Crawford to offer his wife to Yog-Sothoth. A near-human son is born from the insane shell of woman, Crawford's happy, and Orne is promised a stake in the senator's will. For Crawford, that is a fatal mistake. Orne milks the scandalous "disappearance" of the senator's wife for all its blackmailiscious worth, then has kid Crawford murder his father. Kid Crawford gets the estate in Virginia and everything that goes with it, and Orne gets to run it until the kid is old enough. As a provision in the will, Crawford detailed the establishment of an Institute for Strategic Solutions to continue the senator's lifelong battle against communism. CISS' main office in Washington DC is, of course, run by Orne and the Directorate. So now Orne has it all -- an estate, a legit front for a worldwide network of agents who not only influence the course of history but also procure occult brik-a-brak for him, and an heir -- and he sets about his plans. The Crawford estate begins to look like Curwen's Pawtuxet farmstead, complete with an elaborate tunnel system, foreign servants, shady deliveries, and a large stone tower. An initial attempt made at the mansion to Transcend to Godhood is foiled by elements within the Directorate, and so Orne retreats just a little. But, when the PCs join the story, everything is beginning to fall together again. Orne intends to summon Yog-Sothoth and have the All-in-One impart him with Divine Knowledge so that he can become a veritable god -- routine in and of itself, except for the manner in which he is to do it. All he needs is a stone pillar and enough magic points to summon the Outer God -- where's he going to find a large stone tower in Washington? --Mark _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Shane Ivey [shane@revolutionsf.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:07 PM To: Revstaff Cc: zisforzealot@yahoogroups.com; DGML Subject: [DG] Vinge Just a reminder, we're hosting Hugo-winning author Vernor Vinge tonight (right now, in fact) at revolutionsf.com. If you're available, stop by! (OT apologies to DGML!) --Shane Ivey _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of ReflectingSkin [reflectingskin@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:31 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] So what has 'killed' the game... From: "Anarchy" > > > There's obviously a great need for a Player's guide, an equipment guide, > > > and of course, in general, more material (non-fiction). > Basically my players had no book they could look at without risking them > seeing the entire game. There was no player's guide or guide to equipment > (armor, security systems, computers, modified cars, hacking, etc.) unless I > wrote it myself. And there was no explanation of the new skills for them and > no list of firearms unless I photocopied it from the book. That is what I > feel is lacking - a guide for the actual player, at the very least for the > equipment. I couldn't agreee more. Many ppl are new to the military/espionage/conspiracy genre, hell many ppl are new to modern day role playing games. A detailed players guide would be nice, also with some examples of Standard (if you can call it that) Practices for DG...I mean yes, lots of variation, but whats CELL A's general stance on certain things would be nice...also the extent of the ability for DG to cover things up for the players, arrange 'underground' doctors, etc...i could see room for a lot of stuff... A player's guide would be invaluable... _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of The Lizard King [lizardrex@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:47 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Vinge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Ivey" > Just a reminder, we're hosting Hugo-winning author Vernor Vinge tonight > (right now, in fact) at revolutionsf.com. If you're available, stop by! > > (OT apologies to DGML!) > > --Shane Ivey While waiting for Mr. Vinge, check out the responses to the "novelisation" of Lord of the Rings at http://www.revolutionsf.com/article/866.html . The article that inspired all that insightful commentary is at http://www.revolutionsf.com/article/838.html Note how many people needed some sort of label to determine if it was satire or humor. Lacking verification they go off on screaming diatribes about how stupid the writer is. I predict a lot of problems for these people in the post-modern future. I can see them now, shrieking at The Onion because no one was kind enough to label the articles as satire for them. Mark McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Eric Eves [eeves@erskine.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:57 PM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Vinge The Lizard King wrote: > Note how many people needed some sort of label to determine if it was > satire or humor. Lacking verification they go off on screaming diatribes > about how stupid the writer is. I predict a lot of problems for these people > in the post-modern future. I can see them now, shrieking at The Onion > because no one was kind enough to label the articles as satire for them. > This just goes to prove that there are a great number of people out there taking up space that could be filled by some worthier matter. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Nick Brownlow [stabernide@netscape.net] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:50 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Ghouls and Tcho-Tcho <> Why? Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the whole Chaugnar Faugn/Miri Nigri connection arises solely from William Barton's scenario 'The Curse of Chaugnar Faugn'. It's not from the original source material, doesn't cohere particularly well with the idea that they're Asian (which is what their creator seemed to intend), and has been pretty much completely ignored by everyone who's worked on Tcho material ever since. It's not a wholly untenable link, as you say, but it doesn't *feel* right. It's a stretch, and one that's being made to accomodate a one off throwaway scenario written nearly eighteen years ago (?) that itself took huge liberties with the source material. regards, Nick -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Gil Trevizo [furrylogic@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:10 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Ghouls and Tcho-Tcho At 03:49 AM 2/1/02 -0500, Nick Brownlow wrote: ><Miri Nigri>> > >Why? Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the >impression that the whole Chaugnar Faugn/Miri Nigri connection arises >solely from William Barton's scenario 'The Curse of Chaugnar Faugn'. It's >not from the original source material, doesn't cohere particularly well >with the idea that they're Asian (which is what their creator seemed to >intend), and has been pretty much completely ignored by everyone who's >worked on Tcho material ever since. > >It's not a wholly untenable link, as you say, but it doesn't *feel* right. >It's a stretch, and one that's being made to accomodate a one off >throwaway scenario written nearly eighteen years ago (?) that itself took >huge liberties with the source material. A scenario? Well, shit... that changes everything. I thought this was Mythos fiction, out of Frank Belknap Long's stuff, and, while it ain't Lovecraft, that's close to the ground zero of Mythos genesis. I really like Charles' take on the Tcho-Tcho, and I want to use it when coming at the Tcho-Tcho in dgww2, so I've been trying to find a way to keep it for all intents and purposes "canonical," whatever that means. The only tasty thing that comes out of the Tcho-Tcho connected to Miri Nigri is that it fits in well with a Grand Unified Theory of degenerate cults. By tracing the line of degenerate cults from the Deep Ones to the Miri Nigri to the proto-Tochoans to Magna Mater cults on the Black Sea to the Tochoans to the Tcho-Tcho, there's a way to connect the Deep Ones, the Skoptsi, the Tcho-Tcho, and the Cybele cultists in Horror at Red Hook, and god knows what else. But that's not necessary, and the one connection that I really liked out of that - the Magna Mater/Cybele/Tcho-Tcho connection, is still possible just with the Tochoans coming out of India, living along the Black Sea, and then creating the Tochoan civilization in Central Asia where they meet the Men of Leng and become Tcho-Tcho's. Gil _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Paul Michael Janousek [istochnik@mfi.net] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:23 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: [DG] [CHALLENGE2] Chapter 8: Chapter Eight: Deliver us from evil Wilson kept a steady pace as he moved down the into the surrounding woods. Fear welled up inside him as sweat traced its way along the handle of the gun. Never in his entire life had he been as scared as he was this time. "What the Hell?" was the only thought as he tried to follow the road he assumed that they came in on. He was smart enough to move into the woods as far from his abductors as he could get. His mind was centered on getting away when he felt his whole body tumble downward. He felt the pain as his body hit the ground. As he tried to get up he felt something grab his arms and flip him over so he was on his back. A large hand covered his mouth. As his eyes strained in the darkness he could make out a dark shape loomed above him. Voices almost silent filtered into his mind. "Quite. If you make a noise I promise you that will be the last one you ever make. I am going to remove my hand and you will keep your mouth closed. Shake your head if you agree?" Wilson quickly shoke his head. Praying to himself that he will survive this insanity. The hand relaxed and released him. The hands removed themselves from his body. He felt the glock in his hand disappear as someone in the dark grabbed it. As his eyes adjusted to the dark woods he could make out several shapes milling about. Two seemed to concentrate on him while the others peered into the darkness keep vigil over their dark meeting. He could tell these men were soldiers of some kind. He recognized the fatigues and the body armor they wore from scenes he had witnessed on CNN. First dead bodies, then a less then holy priest, and now black clad soldiers. What the hell? One figure moved towards him and lowered his body to sit next to wilson. As he sat he removed a black hood that all the men seemed to have on. He seemed out of place in the bulky armor he wore. While the others seemed to hold themselves with confidence. This one was ill at ease with the outfit. He also appeared to be sweating. That was strange considering the cold weather until he realized so was he. Sweating with fear. The man extended his hand to the Wilson expecting a return of the gesture. "Hey my names Daniel. Daniel Harms. What did you do to get yourself into this mess?" stated the man. "Uh mess? What the hell is all this?, asked wilson. "Hell to tell you the truth ya got me there. I am not exactly in the know myself. Kinda hoping you could help with that." said Daniel The other black armored figure that had been watching him came over and squatted next to Daniel. The figure removed his black mask. A wiry grin dominated the mans scarred face. The years had not been kind to this man. "Both of you be quite. Daniel. I told you why your here. Your book details information that we will need you to verify. As for our new friend he was in the wrong place at the wrong time." said the mysterious figure. "Wh-Who are you?" asked Wilson "Fair enough. Names Mackay, Mr. Wilson. Now for the time being I need you and our friend Mr Harms to sit quite as mice for the moment while My men and I address some concerns with Crossingham Chemical." "I don't, I just don't understand. What the fuck is going o-, who the hell are you" said wilson. "Daniel enlighten Mr. Wilson that he will not be harmed by us in anyway. As for who we are lets just say that we work for the church and leave it at that. We just need both of you to be quite until this is over." said MacKay Just then out of the darkness another black clad figure emerged and approached the one identified as Mackay. Dressed in Black Fatigues and wearing heavy body armor over them the man looked like some kind of monster. Nightvison goggles made the man appear even more monsterous. It was the gun that kept Wisons attention rivited to the fact that he was in serious, serious shit. He could make out snippets of the whispered conversation. "Men in position" and then something else, "hope its not as bad a cluster as that one in Antartica la-" The words were filtered through a respirator and made the man sound almost alien. "Okay," said Mackay, "this is it. Both of you stay put and do not move until we give the all clear. Daniel, when we secure the site we will bring you up to verify what we are dealing with. Until then DO NOT DO ANY THING!" Mackay then pulled out the Glock that he had taken from wilson and handed it to Daniel. "Just in case." said Mackay. With that Mackay moved off with his men and disappeared into the night. "Shit shit shit." whispered Daniel "What is he talking about? What do you need to verify. Can you tell me please what is going on here?" pleaded wilson. "Its like this. I wrote a book about...well about...well more an encyclopedia really...They, I am sorry Mackay told me I had no choice to come with him. I never realized. I never realized the truth until now...." Daniel's words were cut short by the biggest explosion wilson had ever heard and the immediate sound of gun fire. Flashes of light could be seen in the distance as all hell broke lose. _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jonas Bolander (ERA) [Jonas.Bolander@era.ericsson.se] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:01 AM To: 'deltagreen@revolutionsf.com' Subject: RE: [DG] Coming Back > -----Original Message----- > From: Davide Mana [mailto:michelina.ponsetto@tin.it] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:08 > To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com > Subject: Re: [DG] Coming Back > > > Greetings > > Jonas was faced with the dread "Old Nazi" problem and wrote... > > >But wait a minute. He was assassinated in 1976 by French > >vigilantes? That makes him 61 years old at the time. > >What's he gonna do to the Agents? Set the wheelchair to > >ramming-speed? > > OK, just for the record - 61 is not the edge of oblivion. No > more, anyway, > for lots of people. Ah, it was meant more as a colorful way to get the point of me wanting a youthful killer rather than an aged one across. I have no doubt that there are quite a lot of people in their sixties who are still very active. No disrespect meant. But I think I'll go for a tie in to the vampire-myth when it comes to explaining the apparent youth of Resurrectees. I also have some problem with seeing Resurrectees living an apparently happy and well-adapted life. It just doesn't feel right in the world of the Mythos and especially as they've lost 1D20 SAN. Maybe some of them have the strength of mind to do it, but most will live miserable psychotic "lives" enslaved to whomever knows the proper incantations as I see it. Anyway, I want to thank you and all the others who have given me their opinions. That's one of the great things with the list : not just answers, but new ideas. /JoB _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:49 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Cc: Nerva Vels Subject: Re: [DG] [CHALLENGE2] Chapter 8: From: "Paul Michael Janousek" > "Hey my names Daniel. Daniel Harms. Ah, I'm glad to see somebody finally got Danny "Harmful" Harms into the story. Now we just need to get him and one of the versions of the MiB face to face. Thanks, Paul Michael! Next up, a lady who already has a character in this story, Nerva "Listmom" Vels! Nervy, you've got 7 days. Dave And PS: The list of authors, counting down... Chapter 9: Nerva "Nervy" Vels Chapter 10: Thom "Pallid Mask" Ryng Chapter 11: Ross "Not Ron" Howard Chapter 12: Chris "Don't Take Any Wooden" Nichols Chapter 13: Phil "Emerald Hammer" Ward Chapter 14: Julian "Big Jules" Breen Chapter 15: Tolga Yanasik Chapter 16: John "Stango" Stanley Chapter 17: The Nuge Chapter 18: AC "DC" Marcy Chapter 19: Yossi Gurvitz Chapter 20: Davide "Dr Dee" Mana Chapter 21: Shannon Chapter 22: Graeme Price Chapter 23: Marshall "Hands" Gatten Chapter 24: Stuart "Spanish Jonn" Sands Chapter 25: Nick "Harvey" Brownlow Chapter 26: Frank "The Quiet Man" Adams Chapter 27: Mark "The Lizard King" McFadden _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Jonas Bolander (ERA) [Jonas.Bolander@era.ericsson.se] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:06 AM To: Delta Green (E-mail) Subject: [DG] Karotechia - Untoten & Banner I don't know if someone else will have any use for them but since I've made up some props for my upcoming Karotechia-scenario I decided I might as well put them on a web-page ... Photos of Jochen Peiper (mentioned on page 102 in DG) - SS Obersturmbahnführer and Karotechia Untoten : http://www.stormloader.com/labyrinth/deltagreen/dg_peiper.htm I also needed a Karotechia-banner (for a not-so-subtle hint) : http://www.stormloader.com/labyrinth/deltagreen/dg_banner.htm /JoB _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Davide Mana [michelina.ponsetto@tin.it] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:39 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Karotechia - Untoten & Banner Greetings. >Photos of Jochen Peiper (mentioned on page 102 in DG) >- SS Obersturmbahnführer and Karotechia Untoten : > >http://www.stormloader.com/labyrinth/deltagreen/dg_peiper.htm Suitably creepy pretty-boy character. He's obviously the kind that offers candies to kids in bus stations and has replicas of Greek sculptures of (male) athletes in his home.... Callas belting-out "Casta Diva" an absolute must for background music. >I also needed a Karotechia-banner (for a not-so-subtle hint) : > >http://www.stormloader.com/labyrinth/deltagreen/dg_banner.htm Absolutely great - well, ok, is still Nazi insigna, but it's classy Nazi insigna. Pity a lot of people would consioder in poor taste having it printed over a mug or mouse pad.... I think I'll steal it and manipulate it - should anything worthy come out of it, I'll post you a copy for you site. Cheers! Davide Mana Torino, Italy _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Nick Brownlow [stabernide@netscape.net] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:17 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Souls <> On a very superficial level perhaps, but Tim Powers is runs with it in a much more interesting fashion. I bring this up though Gil, because you *have* to read Powers' DECLARE if you haven't already done so. And I really mean that. regards, Nick -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/ From: owner-deltagreen@revolutionsf.com on behalf of Dave Farnell [superdave@jcom.home.ne.jp] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:58 AM To: deltagreen@revolutionsf.com Subject: Re: [DG] Vinge From: "The Lizard King" > While waiting for Mr. Vinge, check out the responses to the "novelisation" > of Lord of the Rings at http://www.revolutionsf.com/article/866.html . > > The article that inspired all that insightful commentary is at > http://www.revolutionsf.com/article/838.html Fortunately, I have proof (in the form of a post to RevSF's Books Forum) that I got the joke before anyone had to tell me it was a joke. [smug] > I can see them now, shrieking at The Onion > because no one was kind enough to label the articles as satire for them. As far as I can tell from looking into the history of it, that's how the anti-Harry Potter thing got started--the Onion wrote a parody article that kids were practicing witchcraft after reading Harry Potter, and somebody who either didn't get the joke, or got the joke but was playing an even bigger one, sent the article out as a serious "protect your children" action-alert chain letter. (Not that I think people shouldn't be careful about what their kids read--even if we don't always agree on what's harmless or not. Just as long as they don't burn the books, they're OK by me.) Dave whose computer problems made him miss out on the Pox brushfire...darn it! :-) _______________________________________ The Delta Green Mailing List http://www.delta-green.com/comint/dgml/